Conference quark::mennotes-v1

From: DECWET::MITCHELL
    
There is nothing wrong with anger....it's all in how you express it.  Shout
if it makes you feel good.

Sounds to me like you have your act together.  More power to you!  I know
several people who were abused as children and dealing with it is no picnic.

As you know, many abused kids grow up to be abusing adults.  This is not
always the case, though (lucky for me!).  My father was beaten as a child
(his mother would be beaten too) and he is the epitome of Love!


John M.

From: STOKES::WHARTON

    When does the "spare the rod spoil the child" practice become physical
    abuse?  
    
    As for my reaction to the man who loses his temper and shouts, it
    would depend on what he shouts and where he shouts. If he shouts
    obscene and degenerative statements then I would not hesitate to
    give him the good 'ole heave ho. No indecencies allowed. If he shouts
    in public, (e.g. on the streets, in the theatre) I give him the boot.
    He should be able to exercise enough control to wait until we are alone.
                                         
    While I agree that there is nothing wrong with anger, I don't support
    shouting if it makes you feel good.  What about the other person
    involved?  What if when you shout they attack because that makes
    them feel good? 
    
    I lift my hat off to .0 who wants to learn how to control his anger
    and is doing so via therapy. That's really commendable.
    
    -kw

    The following is a reply from the original poster to 149.0:
    
    -----
    
    re.2
    
    Believe me when I tell you I'm not talking disciplin here I'm talking
    physical abuse!

    From: AKA::TAUBENFELD "Almighty SET"

    I agree with someone back there in that there is a time and place
    for everything, public displays and verbal abuse are cause for being
    booted.  BUT, I don't see anything wrong with yelling every once
    in a while.  My problem is that I store things up until I burst
    out in a temper tantrum embarrassing myself and those around me
    at the time.  So, don't feel guilty that you are showing some emotion,
    as long as you have control over it.
    
    Sharon

From: LAIDBK::RESKE "Here's Lookin At You (o-o) !"
    
    I think it's great that .0 has realized he has a problem and is
    getting help to overcome it.  I would think that since this woman
    you are seeing has been through the same thing she might be more
    understanding than someone who had a happy stable childhood.
    Most people will rant and rave sometimes, but I'm assuming you
    mean it's a little bit more than the average tantrum.  I hope for
    the best for you two.  It sounds like she's hanging in there so
    far so keep the communication lines open.  Let her know what's going
    on with you so things don't come to a boil like that. I think if you 
    reaffirm how you feel about her during the good times and keep on 
    working to overcome your problem things have a good chance.

    Donna Taking_off_my_Dear_Abby_Hat!

From: XCUSME::DIONNE "Life is a game of Trivial Pursuit?"

    I have a major fear of physical abuse during an angry confrontation,
    having been subjected to 17 years of watching my mother be abused.
    Those people close to me know that while I can handle a shouting
    match as well as anyone, under no circumstance is anyone to take
    a step toward me, whether I'm angry, the other person is angry,
    or both.  I've analyzed my feelings and actions, and decided that
    it is safer for all involved as I am likely to see an angry person
    coming towards me as a real threat, whether this is true or not,
    and am likely to take an offensive position rather than FEEL that
    I cannot defend myself.
    
    I might suggest that if both of you can agree that during these
    expressive confrontations, that each of you will keep a certain
    distance between you.  Hopefully as a time goes on, with continued
    therapy, all involved will be able to trust, that an angry, loud
    arguement, need not evolve into physical abuse towards anyone.
                                                                  
    I sincerely wish you the best in overcoming this problem
    
    Sandie

From: STOKES::WHARTON

    re .3
    
    I understood that you weren't talking about discipline in your earlier
    note.  But my question was genuine.  When does discipline cross
    over to abuse?  (Not including the broken limbs, scars, etc. I consider
    that severe abuse.) 
    
    I was whipped as a kid but I never considered it to be abuse.

From: 3D::CHABOT "May these events not involve Thy servan"

    Well, I don't think that shouting is allowed because it makes you     
    feel good, and neither will I unconditionally endorse all anger.
    If someone is too slow at a green light or a family member drops
    a dinner plate, anger at these times is an exaggeration of a normal
    frustration, or if they do trigger anger in you it has to do with
    external influences and not the poor offending party.  And yet probably
    most of us have lost our temper over these or similarly trivialities
    and expressed undue heat about it.
    
    Shouting is a bad idea if it is going to terminate communication
    (if this is the desired result, maybe this goal should be
    reconsidered).  If you're in a shouting match with a peer who also
    shouts during these types of communications, you may be well matched
    and this might be fine.  Unless there are others in the same room
    or otherwise forced to listen, and they are intimidated by shouting.
    Shouting at non-peers is almost always a bad idea: shouting at your
    boss, shouting at your children.  Shouting at your boss won't do
    your review any good, and shouting at your children will frighten
    them, possibly influencing them to be shouters or fearers-of-shouters
    when they reach adulthood.  Again, if your goal is intimidation
    (or professional suicide :-) ), perhaps you should evaluate your
    real goals and pick a better one.  If you can't communicate without
    battering, something's wrong.
    
    Now.  It's not easy to find out that you are intimidating.  A lot
    of the time someone just plain has to tell you, and somehow make
    sure you listen.  Sometimes shouters like the competition, and that's
    fine, but you can't restrict your life to hearty talkers, I'll bet.
    I don't really know what to advise, except, of course, find someone
    who can advise.  I can offer hope: you don't always have to shout
    and you don't always have to not shout.  I know things are not as
    easy as "Well, just don't shout": the dynamics of conversations
    are faster than that, and you may have to train to chose either
    another way of getting angry (or in the case of trivial frustrations,
    maybe even not get angry).
    
    The problems are similar for those who freeze up when in the presence
    of an angry person.  Here I think the feeling is more of maybe if
    you're quiet enough the other person will go away or feel bad or
    just stop shouting.  And sometimes you will just stand around silent
    and upset, but you misinterpreted and the other person really wasn't
    angry.  It's as unproductive as shouting, and the two
    types often make a very bad match: the shouter always frustrated
    and terrified because the anti-shouter just stands there, and the
    anti-shouter frustrated and terrified because they can't do anything
    while there's all this shouting.  (Obvious quiet seething is just
    as bad for someone who anticipates violence, since it has been
    associated with anger in their past.)  I think it can be worked
    on, and could even be an especially interesting thing to do with
    a closely involved couple.  I've read about trying to adopt habits
    that are mutually agreed upon signals that it's time to stop shouting
    or the silence-act.

    It's also hard to know that you're a person who can't handle shouting;
    usually someone has to tell you (but they can't be yelling when
    they do it, or you won'd be listening!).
        
    I guess I would describe abusing children as anything intimidating.
    Something that turns a parent, whom you love and to whom you turn
    to for love, protection, and support, into an irrational, threatening,
    dangerous part of the universe.  Some things that used to be
    considered, I think, fairly common punishments could also be termed
    as abuse.  I don't consider spankings mostly because I haven't thought
    it through enough, although I know many people do think it is abuse. 
    But I do consider to be abuse locking a child
    in a dark basement or closet for hours (especially a child who is
    afraid of the dark or who is very dependent), or spanking children
    who are crying because they're scared or hurt, or spanking or yelling
    at a child because you're angry, ... 
    and then the examples just get worse and worse
    from there.   Children who have to watch other family members be
    physically or emotionally battered are also being abused, and they
    often don't have anyone they can talk about it with.
    The world may be  a threatening place but a threatening home is not 
    a preparation for it.  Abuse only mucks up your sense of self-worth,
    which is  the only protection you have outside.  And it confuses
    your models of behavior: yes, some people when they're angry will
    yell at you for no reason, but this isn't a justification for yelling
    at the family just because you had a bad day in traffic.
    
    I haven't listed very many examples of abusing children.  I don't
    know if this is an appropriate topic heading for it.  It's really
    hard for some to be more explicit about this, since it may bring
    back old memories, and besides, this *is* a public discussion place.
    If some people are still curious about just what constitutes abuse,
    hmm, well, I'm pretty sure this can be investigated, I just don't
    know any sources off-hand.  There are some books out about alcoholics
    and their families, you should be able to find those in paperback.
    Maybe Planned Parenthood or AA? Just a guesses, I don't know for sure.
    
    The worst part about abusive adults is that you can't go back and
    yell at them now, in most cases.  And it wouldn't do much good:
    you may no longer be a target and they may also not be around any
    potential targets anymore (kids all grown or whatever).  So, you
    can get left with a lot of this anger and fear, and no appropriate place
    for it.  Counselling, religious or otherwise--whatever is appropriate
    for *you*--, is a fairly productive and recommended action.

From: STOKES::WHARTON

    Thanks .08 for you words on abuse.  It answered my question.

    The following is a reply from the original poster to 149.0:
    
    -----
    
    Thanks to all of you that have responded so far.  I have learned
    that the demonstration of anger through shouting is not very
    productive.  The difficulty I have is that although the shouting
    is not constant and is generally directed at a peer, it is generally
    peppered with statements that I regret as soon as there said.  The
    real issue here is I need to find some some additional avenue for
    understanding my behavior and more importantly modifying it.
    
    My work in therapy has brought me to theh point of understanding
    where this stuff comes from, now I need to figure out how to keep
    it in check.  I understand this is a personal situation, yet I believe
    I have to find additional insight through conversing with people
    who have experienced the problem and found ways to deal with it.
    
    My hope is that because this problem seems to be more prevailent
    then believed some of you might have some thoughts for me, or
    pointers to other resources which will help me understand the control
    of this stuff.  I believe this has cuased me to lose the friendship
    of some of the people exposed to it, and I certainly don't have
    any desire to continue...so I ask...any pointers to resources???

From: SSDEVO::YOUNGER "This statement is false"

    If anyone finds or knows of any resources on this subject, please
    post them!  I, for one, find this topic extremely relevant, but
    I don't have anything to contribute.  I would be very interested
    in any resources containing suggestions for help.
    
    Elizabeth

    I for one, know only to well the pains of child abuse. It is more
    difficult to seperate what would be considered discipline and what
    constitutes abuse than most realise. If they see and *FEEL* that
    you are trying to mold them or addressing specific issues to help
    them be happy...well even a firm reprimand can be OK. If, on the
    other hand, the child feels badly when they are disciplined (not
    the I want to go to.... disapointment) and their self esteem is
    continuously reduced then the simple act of indifference or neglect
    can have monumental consequences..It is all in the way the child
    sees the world. My particular case was extreme in respect to both
    physical and mental abuse. I can assure you that mental abuse can
    be as harmful as a broken nose. Ridicule is as potent a weapon that
    was ever devised because like so many other internal weapons, uses
    the childs own brain to increase the effectivness of the injury.
    It was only a few years ago that I was able to reconcile my own
    anger. I was and sometimes still am a very angry person. A counselor
    once told me that it was like having a bounced check that you can't
    recover. I was always thinking - why me? am I a bad person? must
    be or else these GOOD people wouldn't hurt me such. All this was
    to offer some advice on coping with anger. There are times when
    anger is healthy and obviously times when it's not. You need to
    separate those angers. My wife is very understanding about it and
    helps me with it. I make no apologies when I am justified in my
    anger but recognise when your anger is misdirected. Understand when
    your anger represents "old tapes" for you. One way of helping the
    anger is to address the issue of why. I am angry because of..or
    realise your anger is directed onto a innocent party because it
    reminds you of something else. I did a paper on child abuse in college
    and found that I was not the bad guy..in fact I was victimised by
    others who couldn't deal with there own problems. This "victim"
    can be played out your whole life. Sometimes the anger represents
    your own minds disagreement with the opinion of you..I am a good
    person..Remember that this mindset perpetuates the problem. Chock
    it up the the deficiencies in those who abuse not the abused and
    you will be able to reconcile some of your anger. Your self esteem
    is fighting back for you. 
    This obviously is one mans opinion  albeit first hand knowledge
    not intended to be the answer. My resolution of this conflict
    has made something positive out of an absolutely horrible childhood.
    I am beginning to appreciate my role as a parent, and carefully
    judge my actions. I discipline my child but do not make her feel
    badly in the process. You can address behavior problems without
    destroying the person on the inside. 
    
    Bob
    
    I now can fully appreciate my role as a parent, my inpact on the
    rest of humanity and try to be more sensitive to others..If the
    anger is not reconciled at all it may perpetuate the cycle. Maybe
    I can contribute at a later date to go into more of the causes and
    effect of this behavior if it can help others.  I also offer support
    outside of this notesfile.
    
    Bob

    re .12
    
    Very nicely put Bob.
    
    Lee

    THERE IS AN INTERNATIONAL GROUP THAT HAS BEEN A GREAT HELP TO BOTH
    ABUSED CHILDREN GROWN UP AND ABUSERS, THEY USE BOTH INDIVIDUAL
    COUNSELING AND GROUP.  THEY ARE 'PARENTS UNITED'.  PLEASE, ANYONE
    WHO HAS HAD ANY KIND OF A PROBLEM OR IS INVOLVED WITH ANYONE WITH
    A PROBLEM, THESE PEOPLE CAN HELP.
    I AM PRESENTLY INVOLVED WITH A MAN WHO WE SUSPECT WAS ABUSED AS
    A CHILD, I KNOW HE WAS AT LEAST EMOTIONALLY ABUSED, THE ANGER IS
    HARD FOR ME TO DEAL WITH AS I HAVE A QUICK TEMPER MYSELF, BUT AFTER
    A YEAR IN COUNSELING WITH PARENTS UNITED WE ARE LEARNING TO DEAL
    WITH WHERE THE ANGER COMES FROM.  IT'S A VERY LONG, SLOW PROCESS
    AS MOST ABUSED ADULTS DON'T EVEN REALIZE THAT THEY WERE ABUSED UNTIL
    IT BECOMES A PROBLEM IN THEIR LIVES.  YOU WOULD BE SURPRISED HOW
    MANY PEOPLE BLACK THAT SORT OF THING OUT IN THEIR PAST.  I FEEL
    THAT THE RELATIONSHIP IS WORTH WORKING ON AND AM WILLING TO STICK
    IT OUT TO THE END.  THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS THAT HE IS WILLING
    TO WORK ON IT AND THAT I'M BEING AS SUPPORTIVE AS POSSIBLE.
    ALSO, AS AN ASIDE, I HAVE DEVELOPED AN INTEREST IN "VICTIMS OF CHILD
    ABUSE LAWS".  DOES ANYONE OUT THERE HAVE ANY INFORMATION, OR JUST
    PLAIN FEEDBACK ABOUT THE SUBJECT?  I HAVE BEGUN TO UNDERSTAND THAT
    THERE IS A REAL PROBLEM OUT THERE IN THE COURT SYSTEM AND HAVE GOTTEN
    CURIOUS ABOUT HOW WIDESPREAD IT REALLY IS.  
    
    THANKS ALOT FOR ANY RESPONSES THAT I MIGHT GET IN ADVANCE,
    CANDY
    

    More resources for adult children of abusers (physical, sexual,
    and emotional):
    
    Co-Dependents Anonymous (CoDA) has meetings all over the country
    and is an extremely fast growing self-help program in the AA tradition.
    A primary feature of do-dependency is to continue dysfunctional
    patterns learned as a child as ways to survive in a dysfunctional
    family.  It is very difficult to have healthy, functional relation-
    ships when the old patterns are so ingrained.
    
    Parents Anonymous (PA) is a program for parents who have abused
    or fear abusing their children.
    
    CSSE::SERENITY will get you on a mailing list providing information
    on where and when meetings are held.
    
    Also available on the Net is the ACOA notesfile, a restricted
    membership file, for Adult Children of Abusive, Alcoholic, and
    Dysfunctional Families.  You can join by contacting Steve Grasmann,
    ATPS::GRASMANN, or Rita Tillson, MEIS::TILLSON.
    
    If you wish more information on CoDA or co-dependency from me, please
    send mail.  I spend very little time in Notes other than the Psychology
    Notesfile, TERZA::PSYCHOLOGY, or ACoA.
    
    Jack
    

    I don't know why the number is showing up instead of my nodename.
    
    I'm at STARCH::MARVIN.
    
    Jack

                 CoDA (CO-DEPENDENTS ANONYMOUS) MEETINGS
                              rev. Mar 20, 1989

    If your area is not represented, and you are willing to start a group,
    we will be glad to supply you with information and loving support.
    Contact: Jack, (508)369-7810 or (617)259-9624.

    Sundays, 6:30pm, BEVERLY
                     Apple Village Club House, Rt 128, Exit 21
                     (behind King's Grant Inn) 
                     ALL WELCOME. Contact: Betty (508)921-0598

             7:30pm, FRAMINGHAM
                     The Drop-in Center, 650A Waverly St. (Rte. 135)
                     ALL WELCOME.  Contact: George S. (508)435-5277
                     
             7:00pm  READING CENTER
                     Congregational Church, Woburn St., ALL WELCOME
                     Contact: Sandy V. (617)272-7554

    Mondays, 7:30pm, CONCORD, A:HR Associates for Human Resources
                              2nd floor, 191 Sudbury Rd. (in front of
                              Stop and Shop), ALL WELCOME.
                              Contact: Jack M. (508)369-7810
                                               (617)259-9624
                                               
    Tuesdays, 8:00pm, CAMBRIDGE, Episcopal Divinity School
                                 Washburn Conference/Cafeteria
                                 99 Brattle St., WOMEN ONLY
                                 Contact: Elly A. (617)497-6825

              Noon-1:30pm, CONCORD, A:HR, address above, THERAPISTS ONLY
                                    (LET YOUR THERAPIST KNOW)


              7:30pm, CONCORD, A:HR, address above, STEP MEETING.
                               ALL WELCOME.

    Wednesdays, 7:30pm, CONCORD, A:HR, address above, ALL WELCOME.

                7:30pm, HAVERHILL, YWCA, 107 Winter Street, ALL WELCOME.

    Thursdays, 6:30pm, CAMBRIDGE, beginning April 13
                                  MIT, Landau Building (Building 66)
                                  Ames St (between Memorial and Main)
                                  Room 144 (first floor)
                                  
                                  (KENDALL T Stop; Park at lot between
                                   Vassar and Ames Sts.)

               7:30pm, CONCORD, A:HR, address above,
                                BRADSHAW TAPES and DISCUSSION,
                                ALL WELCOME

               7:00pm, DERRY, NH, Westside Community Ctr, Rte. 102
                                  ALL WELCOME.

               6:30pm, JAMAICA PLAIN, Municipal Bldg (Curtis Hall)
                                      20 South St.  ALL WELCOME.

    Fridays,    7:00pm, CONCORD, A:HR, address above, ALL WELCOME.

                7:30pm, MASHPEE (Cape Cod), Madaket Place, Bldg. C-17
                                ALL WELCOME.
    

Can anyone tell me if there's a book to help people who *used* to be abusers
to get over guilt and that kind of thing?

Thanks,

	Alice T.