Conference quark::mennotes-v1

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                 -< DEC Singles Employee Interest Conference >-
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Note 603.1               anonymous topic for discussion                   1 of 1
RSTS32::COFFLER "Jeff Coffler"                       29 lines   8-AUG-1987 10:34
                    -< Be honest to yourself and to others >-
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    I feel that honesty is a vital trait in a relationship.  Without
    honesty, there really isn't (and can't be) much hope in a relationship.
    In relationships (any relationships - not just romantic ones), I
    always strive to be honest - no white lies, no fibs - honest.  I
    don't ask a question unless I'm prepared for any answer, and I expect
    the same from my friends.  As a result, if I am asked a question,
    I assume that my friend would like an honest answer.
    
    With this said, you can probably guess how I feel.  If somebody doesn't
    feel that they're "attractive", and they state otherwise in a SINGLES
    ad, then they've lied - clear and simple.  I don't stay in dishonest
    relationships. Many people avoid this issue by simply stating, "I've
    been told that I'm attractive".  A safe statement, indeed - but it
    doesn't say anything about how someone feels about themselves. 
    
    This is all a rather moot point, anyway.  Are looks *REALLY* that
    important?  If so, I propose that you're rather shallow and looking for
    the wrong things.  Sure, there must be a basic attraction between two
    people.  Beyond that, though, I don't think looks matter all that much.
    I've known many beautiful woman (even a few professional models) who
    are some of the ugliest people I know.  And I've known what have
    probably been "bland-looking" woman that I think are very beautiful.
    Friends have told me that certain woman are extremely attractive,
    and I frequently haven't agreed.  And vise versa.
    
    Attractiveness is a very subjective thing, different from person to
    person. In the end, though, it's what's inside that counts the most.
    
    	-- Jeff

Well it just all goes to prove beauty is really in the eyes of the person
doing the beholding... and what is more, BEAUTY is as beauty does.. I know 
they are 'golden oldie' statements but they always prove themselves out.

I have met people who warned me they were not very nice looking who proved
to be IN MY OPINION very nice looking, others who told me they thought they
were quite nice looking who IN MY OPINION were not much to look at at all.
I have known people so nice and that possess such an air about themselves,
whether it be grace, charm, charisma or otherwise, that they seemed many times
over much better looking than just their physical appearance alone would
credit them with.

Something I learned along time ago by communicating with people electronically
was that you only know about the other person what they tell you or what you
interpret from the exchanged communications..  therefore, you may feel cheated
when the person in the flesh does not live up to what your pre-assumed idea
of them was.  Getting one's personality down network links is a bit easier than
getting across a clear interpretation of one's looks as one's looks are subject
to so many different interpretations.  All Noters are not beautiful people
necessarily, I learned that at my first Noters party several years ago when
for some reason I thought everyone was going to look like the cast of Dynasty!
Why I had thought all 30 people invited were going to be the "beautiful" people
I really don't know but I was put in my place when I met everyone and they 
were just a bunch of normal looking, fairly normal acting ( :-) ), people
that happened to have noting in common!!!

I think anyone looking for a relationship via SINGLES or any notes file for
that matter has to be prepared to be patient and take risks.  It stands to
reason that the first person you swap electronic messages with is not going
to be everything body and soul that you are looking for in life.

gailann

    One has to find a happy medium between honesty and negativism. 
    For some time I felt I was unattractive.  With the help of some
    very good friends I do not feel that way anymore and I think it
    has helped me in developing friendships over the net.  
    
    When meeting over the phone or on the tube it is important to 
    give positive statements...because the communication medium does
    not allow for body language or expression.  I would prefer that
    someone say nothing about their looks than to either exagerrate
    or appear negative. 
    
    But when you arrange the first meeting be very careful how you describe
    yourself.  It is better to describe the clothes you will be wearing
    than a physical appearance.  To one person not bald might mean that
    they have 10 hairs on their head...to another it might mean a full
    head of hair.
    
    Last but not least there are ways to make yourself attractive and
    appealing in spite of your physical appearance.  Clothes, a hair
    cut, a beard or some other asset you have emphasized.  And all the
    good looks in this world only get you an introduction, personality
    wins friends and influences people!

    I find this subject very interesting as I have been considering
    posting a note in the Singles file.  I feel very uncomfortable even
    addressing the issue of appearance/looks.
    
    The physical attributes we each have are something we have very
    little control over.  We were GIVEN our looks, we didn't get to
    chose them (with the exception of cosmetic surgery, which very few
    consider an alternative.)  If we did, by the way, I definitely would
    have chosen a much better nose.  But, it (the nose) could be worse.
    It seems to me that women in general have more to work with in terms
    of enhancing whatever they have to start with, society doesn't seem
    to accept men wearing eyeshadow and such.
    
    The question here SEEMS to be - How do I see myself? How do others
    see me?  How important is physical appearance to me and my relationship
    with others?
    
    Now, I am going to be honest here, (What am I nuts?).  I like to
    SAY that looks aren't really important, and yet every important
    male-female relationship I've ever had BEGAN with a physical
    attraction.  In the end, this didn't amount to a hill of beans.
    So I would have to say that good looks in men is my initial attraction
    to them, which I consider a defect in MY character.
    
    Am I good looking?  I don't consider myself PRETTY, but I am aware
    that certain types of men consider me very attractive, that on certain
    occasions, with the right makeup, and most importantly with a certain
    attitude, I can look GREAT.  But the bottom line to all of this,
    is that I can look great to men who like my kind of looks, it really
    is in the eye of the beholder, which in the end isn't going to amount
    to a hill of beans if I don't have some substance, some personality,
    some character.
    
    So good looking will get you a first date, and that's about all.
    I would like to have everyone FEEL that they are attractive, because
    to someone, somewhere they are.  
    
    And, I still don't know if I should say I'm attractive in a Singles
    note, because that is up to others to decide.
    
    Sandie

    re .5
    
    So do I tell people that I think my nose belongs on someone else's
    face? Or do I tell them I think I'm still attractive regardless?
    Or do I wait and have someone tell me that they don't want to be
    friends because my nose is akward? Or do I hope that someone I like
    would say that the size, shape of my nose isn't really that bad
    after all?
    
    Sandie

    
    Doubtless there will be as many men who would find your nose
    interesting as would not. Does it have - or + slope? Is it
    a second order curve or or a higher order one? Flaring nostrils?
    A 'divider'? I associate a big (and especially a long) nose as
    a positive attribute, indicative of wisdom, impudence, wit...
    

    I've been thinking about this myself recently.  My tentative
    conclusion is not to say anything about relative quality of "looks",
    because I know that my taste in women's appearances is often different
    from other men's, so I would expect there to be a similar variation
    among women's preferences.
    
    Also, I am a poor judge of my own attractiveness.  I once thought
    I was not very attractive, but a fair number of women have told
    me otherwise, so I'll refrain from offering an opinion on the subject.
    
    I would just stick to "the facts" (age, height, weight, hair color,
    etc.) and leave the subjective judgements to those who actually
    meet you.

    				Steve

    re .8
    Steve,
    Do you mean to say that I have to honest about my age?  I was kinda
    hoping I could pass right by that one!  After all, I've heard it
    said many times that age is a state of mind.  I have often told
    my family "you don't know what h*ll is till you have a 19yr old
    mind in a 36yr old body"  oops I let it slip!
    
    also, in regards to judging one's own attractiveness, I find it
    really depends on what day it might be.  Somedays I feel gorgeous,
    somedays UUUUUUgly! I hope I don't try to write a note in Singles
    on one of those days, I mean the UUUUUUUUUgly days.
    
    Sandie
    
    p.s  I'm new to notes, Steve, but some of the replies I've read
    indicate to me that you are an attractive PERSON, and I'm wanting
    to believe that all of us could be "judged?" by that alone!
                                                       

    Since I met the man I love thru SINGLES, I'll tell you what I went
    through.   (Yup, I really did meet "Mr. Right"--right for ME, that
    is!)
    
    I posted an entry in SINGLES, and gave a word-picture of myself
    that I felt was accurate.  I gave the basics like hair and eye color,
    height, age, occupation;  as well as some important areas of my
    life that are also "me".  I mentioned things I liked to do, etc.,
    and I wasn't too specific about the "type" of man I was looking
    for.  I think I said something like, "It doesn't really matter to
    me what you look like, but what you ARE.  I like a man who likes
    himself, who knows how to take care of himself, who is conscious
    of good health, has a sense of humor,"--you get the idea.  I avoided
    being too specific, because I know how offended I got when I would
    read an entry that wanted a woman to be "5', blue eyes, medium-to-long
    blonde (natural, of course) hair, MUST weigh under 110 lbs., etc."..
    
    To Sandie, I wouldn't worry about the nose.  I have some physical
    flaws I'm not too thrilled with, but I don't consider them the most
    important (or noteworthy) things about me.  If someone's going to
    let a mere thing like a nose or a few extra pounds or whatever
    prejudice them against the whole person--well then, who cares about
    them anyway?!  Matter of fact, "my" man when I met him was heavy,
    which had put off some other women he had dated.  I found it very
    easy to like him and be comfortable with him right away--like I
    say, a few pounds more or less was no big deal.
    
    This turned out to be pretty long-winded;  sorry about that.  I
    responded to the "representing yourself honestly" part of this note.
    I agree that if you believe you are attractive, then you are.  No
    matter how many friends tell you that you are beautiful, you will
    not believe it (or act it) until YOU do.  
    
    ..does this help??
    
    Jane

    Sandie:
    
    I can only tell you what I would think if I found you were reluctant
    to reveal your age - that you were hiding something.  Be honest
    - a man who gets upset about you're being thirty-whatever in your
    ad would tend to be MORE upset if he found out afterwards, and
    he probably isn't worth it anyhow.
    
    There's another possibility - if you refuse to tell your age, he
    may guess a figure that's unfavorable to you!  One woman I know
    was all upset about my asking her age (before we had met).  From
    all the fuss, I guessed her to be several years older than she
    really was.  If she had been straightforward about it to start
    with it would not have bothered me.
    
    If you must, be approximate; "mid-thirties" for example.   That
    will tell me if we're even close. 
    
    I don't feel so strongly about listing weights.  There's a lot of
    paranoia about how much one weighs, most of it unjustified.  
    Personally, I find that the few women who think they are close to
    their "proper" weight are too skinny for my taste!
    
    					Steve

    re .11
    
    but, can't I say I THINK I'm 19?  Jus kiddin!
    
    How right you are--In this society a lot of emphasis is put on youth
    and beauty, and I'm as guilty as the next person for letting myself
    be pressured into trying to meet certain exterior standards rather
    than focusing on being a better person.  Alot of us, allow our view
    of ourselves, our self-respect to be determined by what we look
    like, rather than who we are. 
    
    all kidding aside, I put a lot of effort into getting to the age
    I'm at and having some mental capabilites still intact, so I guess
    I really shouldn't be ashamed to admit it.
    
    But if I may ask you and other men, don't you think there is a lot
    more of the pressure to be young and beautiful, put on woman rather
    than men? (Should I start another note on this subject?)Help me
    out here.
    
    Sandie
             

    Re: .12
    
    I think a question on the different pressures to meet external
    "standards" is a good one, but is probably more appropriate for
    the QUARK::HUMAN_RELATIONS conference, so I invite you to
    start a topic there.  Press KP7 or SELECT to add it to your
    notebook.
    					Steve
    
    P.S.  Sandie, if you said you thought you were 19, you'd lose
    my interest.

    Hmm ... there have been more interesting things said here than I expected
    to find!  Good stuff ...
    
    
    re: .2
    
    Why is it important to me that somebody FEEL they are attractive? I
    think you misunderstood what I said.  I don't think it's important for
    someone to feel that they're attractive; frankly, this doesn't matter
    at all. I do feel it's important that someone is honest, though. If you
    can't share honesty, what can you share? 
    
    People are free to discuss whatever they wish in a SINGLES posting, or
    with friends.  I would prefer that people simply don't discuss things
    at all rather than be dishonest.  If I asked a friend a question, I'd
    prefer a "I'd rather not talk about it" to a dishonest answer.  If
    you're not ready to discuss the truth, then don't discuss the subject;
    that's my motto.
    
    Honesty isn't really that subjective, is it?  The truth is the truth.
    People know when they tell it, and people know when they don't. A few
    times, perhaps, you may not be sure; then it's the effort that counts.
    
    I do agree with one thing, though, *STRONGLY*: You don't really know
    anything about someone until you meet them.  Sometimes it takes several
    meetings before you meet the "true self".
    
    
    re: .5
    
    Interesting that you mention noses, Sandie.  Just yesterday, I was with
    a friend that mentioned she had a "hump" in her nose and that she felt
    it was ugly.  I sat there - in shock - looking at a clearly pretty
    woman ... nice hair, nice eyes, a great smile, and yes, even a nice
    nose.  Goes to show what people think of their own looks. 
    
    I don't think it's a 'defect' in your character to begin relationships
    based on physical attraction.  Doesn't everybody?  After all, why would
    I ask a stranger out if SOMETHING didn't attract me to them? This is
    about the only thing physical attraction is good for, though.  It's
    easier if the person is a friend before you 'date' them; then, you know
    who the person is, and you can be attracted to their personality.
    
    As I said before, there should be a basic attraction between two people
    (it doesn't make sense to date someone that looks disgusting to you).
    Beyond that, though, it's what's inside that counts.  After the initial
    meeting (for me, at least), looks become based on personality and the
    person's "true self" and not the person's "cover".  I agree with what
    you say:  looks don't amount to a hill of beans if someone doesn't have
    some substance, some personality, some character.
    
    I'd suggest what Steve suggested: If you don't feel you're attractive,
    don't mention it in a SINGLES ad.  Besides, based on the woman I saw
    this weekend, there's a good chance you ARE attractive but just don't
    view yourself as such.  Regarding your nose, if someone tells you they
    don't want to be friends because your nose is awkward, that tells you
    something much more important: You don't want to be their friend.  I
    certainly don't want to be friends with people that are THAT shallow.
    
    
    re: .10
    
    What Jane said is a perfect example to prove what I stated.  I've met
    her.  I can't imagine what physical flaws Jane has that she isn't too
    thrilled with - I didn't notice any at all.
    
    
    I'd like to close this with an experience I had.  Once, when I met
    someone through SINGLES, the person I met was shocked that I didn't ask
    about her looks at all before I met her.  Why?  I honestly didn't care.
    Why be hung up on looks?  As I've said, it's inside that counts the
    most.  Old sayings sometimes tell the truth: You can't judge a book
    by it's cover. 

    Re: .14--
    
    WOW!!  Thanks, Jeff!  You just made my day!!
    
    :-)
    
    Jane

    You think being 36 years old is bad?????!!!!  You have no idea how
    many men I have to pass by because they are twice my age.  You'll
    have NO PROBLEM, it's us 21 year olds that are missing all the fun.
    
    I haven't put an ad in SINGLES, because I am told that women get
    around 200 replies.  Since only 4 men on the entire board have
    interested me, I figure only 2 out of the 200 replies will do the
    same (new math, folks).  I prefer to buy, not sell ;-)
    
    And when a guy asks me how I look I tell him I can be taken out
    in public.  Nobody has asked for more details on my looks and nobody
    has been dissapointed when they finally met me (from what I'm told).

As the fiancee to .17, I have to admit that *I* was the one who did some
misrespresenting.   Dwight found out that right off that I described myself as
"something  the cat dragged in".  (I really do like my looks, but I'm
no Christy Brinkley!)

Anyway, as we wrote back and forth, we decided to exchange pictures.  I sent
him a 3-year old picture, not thinking that I had changed since then.  I didn't
especially like the picture (it wasn't very complimentary), but it was the only
full shot of me alone. 

When I sent him a more recent picture, Dwight felt that I had changed alot.  He
felt slighted and misled, which he had a right to feel.  I felt terrible for
hurting him; that was the last thing I wanted to do. I had no intention of
misleading him, and his feelings surprised me.  I guess a person's perception
of looks is very subjective.  

Needless to say, everything worked out ok.  Dwight knows all my flaws and 
imperfections and loves me anyway. (even with my crows feet!)


kmw(b)

    I have to say that I think that you are perfectly entitled to lie
    about looks but I am not at all sure about age. So much of peoples
    attitudes opinions feelings etc. are a function of what has gone
    before. Saying that you look stunning is one thing, suggesting that
    you dont remember the sixties is another !
    
    Jonathan
    
    P.S. Sandie you sound gorgeous

    .18
    
    
    Those aren't CROWS FEET, you silly!  They're laugh lines!!
    
                      Deb
    
    P.S. Congratulations to both of you!