Conference quark::mennotes-v1

Personally I think men have become much more sensitive as a result and we 
needed that.

To some extent a role reversal has evolved.  Men become more sensitive, women
become more independent.  I appreciate and in my own way demand woman be able 
to care for herself.

On the whole it is important we understand the opposite sex in greater and more
intimate and mind consuming ways.

In a way I think Holistic health has benefited from the womans movement. 
Earlier notes on touching are a good example.

Sensitivity really comes to mind for me.

However, as a male who has grown emotionally and physically during this time
I sometimes think that it (woman's movement) has also confused males (this one
included) as to their roles and behaviors.  Should I provide, open doors,
work, raise childen, sew, cook.  Many aspects that are on the fine line between
the sexes.  Sharing roles is great and I believe necessary for a mutual
friendship and relationship.  But there is still something about all this that
is not clear to me.

I am unsettled by it.  It is some kind of a time clock that I think will
go off with many unseen and unknown results.  I observe a change in the
fabric of our society.

I am curious to know the comments of other readers of this file.

- Howard

    Re .1
    
    I believe that we are all guilty of the same error, especially
    on this subject.  I am sure that there would be a lot less confusion
    for all if we treated each other with dignity and civility as human
    beings, not men and women.
    
    If someone is having difficulty with a door I open it, if I pass
    through a door I make sure that it doesn't fly back into the face
    of someone coming behind.  It is also my belief that if a couple
    are starting a family, and they believe that someone should stay
    with the child for xxx number of months/years, then it _could_ be
    the person who has  (a) a strong desire for a career,
    (b) has the better prospects, (c) earns the most money, (d) wants
    to look after the offspring.  The decision should not be based on
    women at home, men at work.
    
    As far as sensitivity is concerned this has never been the prerogative
    of either sex.  Men are slowly becoming more open about their feelings
    and fears, and I wait for the day when it ceases to be remarked
    upon.
                            
    Joan
    ====
    

    re: .0
  In many ways it is disconcerting. I don't agree that "its  a time
    clock ticking", though.  Having seen the results of "both" sides
    of the coin, it is much better to eventually get to where Joan (.2)
    says we should get , when it is no longer remarkable that men are
    human, and woman are human, and humans act toward each other on
    the basis of their humanity rather than their sexuality.
    
    I know two very old and charming woman who 'belong to the old' school.
    When their respective husbands passed away their lives became mostly
    meaningless, and they had to generate a purpose in life to keep
    going (both had been married over 40 years).
    
    By comparison, when my Father died it was something to be dealt
    with, and my mother just kept on living, with the same motivation
    she always had.
    
    .bob.

    

    
    Overall the women's movement has been good for the women, but in
    the process has created more problem for men and between men and
    women than has cured.
    
    In todays wonderful world a man who has become "aware" and sensitive
    is now labeled a wimp.
    
    On the other side the man who is strong is labeled a insensitive
    macho MCP.
    
    I've brought this up before in another note about where is the balance
    in a relationship. But the problem goes far beyond that. Today is
    very difficult to be a man in multiple social circles, for the reasons
    I stated above. Depending on what group you wind up being involved
    with you need to adjust your speech, mannerisms, thought patterns
    ECT to fit the tone of the women your with. As mentioned in some
    of the earlier replys its a real pain when your attempting to be
    polite and do something such as open (or hold open) a door and get
    bitched at on account of it.
    
    I've come to a point of getting sick and tried of playing the game.
    I am now me, sometimes sensitive, sometimes hard, but overally
    comfortable and content with me the person. There are those that
    like my company and I welcome theirs, for the others that dont like
    the real me, Well.......thats their problem...
    
                                  Bob B 

    Re: .5
    
    I agree with you about the wimp term.  Wimp is a term I HATE and
    when my daughter(age 20) catagorized someone she knew with it
    and I explained to her and my wife why I HATE the term (using much
    the same reasoning given in .5) they both agreed and have tried to 
    stop catagorizing anyone with by that term.  Now I have to remember
    that when I use some of the same type terms regarding women.  Life
    is a constant learning process.
       
       
    JEF

    RE .5
    
    Bob B.  That's all "we" (anyone) can ever ask of "you" (anyone).
    Please, be yourself, and if you meet someone who bitches when you act
    in what you consider to be a polite manner... well, insensitive(:-))
    as this may sound, that is a problem to them not to you.  Just count
    the nice smiles/thank you's, they'll outnumber the few scowls;-)
    
    Joan 

    I am torn between .1 and .5.  I think that are goal that we should
    be shooting for is the humanistic approach of dealing with each,
    however, there are some difficult transitions to deal with.  I see
    this period in history as a radical transition for male/female roles
    and relationships.  The transitional state exists, in large part,
    due to our upbring, conditioning, and personal experience
    Many of the people important our lifes still cling to more traditional
    defintion of male/female roles.  I think we have made significant
    progress as a society, but we cannot overlook the influence of our
    societies background,stereotypes, and outlooks.  This causes some
    sense of internal conflict (sometimes subconscious).  I think we
    all are still struggling with our newly evolved roles.
    
    Women have moved to establishing and maintaining high self-image;
    professional independence; expressing, requiring, and in some cases
    demanding what they need in relationships and settling less frequently.
    There are many more points, but these are the ones that stick out
    in my mind.
    
    Men are reacting/dealing with the new found independence, and demands
    that male/female relationships requiring.  As some notes in the
    conference have suggested, men are now examining themselves, their
    roles, and their evolving self-image.
    
    My point is that our upbringing in family and society did not deal with
    the above two paragraphs of issues.  Our family and society upbring
    did aid in cultivating our mindsets.  There is a reconcilation that
    is taking place today between these new set of issues or "rules
    of the game".  I think my kids will have it a little easier, because
    I plan to raise (whenever I marry and have them) them with as
    humanistic and global environment mindset as possible.  
    
    During the interim or "transition" we are breaking some very new
    ground.  If you have read this far thanks for baring with me.
    
    Vince