Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    I've never had to go to a woman's dressing room to try anything
    on but I've seen most of what you complain about.
    
    An other problem is that very often the sales help (if any) tries
    to get you to buy clothes that are 'stylish' rather then help you
    find something you like and feel comfortable. I don't care how 'in'
    pink shirts, tight pants and the latest cut in lapels are. I want
    something *I* like.

    There is a flip side though. Men seldom pay for alterations; women
    almost always have to. Also in malls, in NY at least, the mens
    department is usually right by the door so you don't have to do
    through other departments. Here in NH, though, it seems that I have
    to go though either the perfume (I have bad allergies) department
    or the lingerie department (I blush easy). 
    
    For these reasons I tend to shop only in mens stores rather then
    department stores. The service in Wallachs almost makes the higher
    price worth it by itself.

    			Alfred

        I don't know where (back east I presume) or what stores you
    shop in but aside from a dearth of mirrors the stores here in
    California the problems exist for women.  The women's dressing
    rooms always seem to be busy where as the men's seldom are.  And
    even though both departments have cashiers the men's cashiers are
    the least busy.
    
    ASP

    Women happen to care what the clothes looks like on them and another's
    opinon (mommies, sisters, friends) happen to come in handy.  Maybe
    some men should look into this practice then they won't walk out
    of the store with clothes that make them look like fools!!!
    
    CC
    

    And there is *nothing* in the average volume department store for boys
    older than toddlers and younger than teenagers.  Either you go to a
    more expensive store that specializes in children's clothing or to
    something really cheap. But something nice in a reasonable price?
    Forget it.  Jeans, t-shirts, and white athletic socks, or full
    miniature power suits. And the selection of shoes is, if possible,
    worse.

    I like to see my son look nice without turning into an imitation
    grownup, but it's getting hard already.
        
    --bonnie 

    RE: .0
    
    AMEN!  I say that almost anytime I shop.  Women get whole FLOORS
    dedicated to them, (several floors in some stores) while menswear is
    lucky to take up a corner.
    
    I have never had to go to the Womenswear dept. to change, but I
    can understand the situation existing.  Men DO get the short end
    of the stick when it comes to dressing rooms.  I went to a MACY's
    once where they didn't even have booths---just one big open area
    with no mirrors or seats!
    
    John M.

    re: .0
    
    Now hold it!  In one note you say men don't change their clothes as
    often as them silly XX types (paraphrasing, here), and in the next you
    say department stores don't devote enough space/money to the men's
    clothing section.  If women supposedly buy more clothes (for
    themselves) than men, wouldn't it make sense that a department store
    invest more in the section where they sell more?
    
    Lee

    Take my husband.  Please.  Take him shopping - I guarantee it can't
    be done.  
    
    Any store that depends on the likes of him would go broke.  He's
    got shirts in the closet that were bought in 1972.  And if I patched
    elbows and knees instead of "losing" all those old favorites, he
    wouldn't need new clothes for another 15 years.
    
    No store that depends on people like him needs dressing rooms either.
    On the dubious premise that I might want to be seen somewhere in public
    with him, I buy him a yearly wardrobe:  one pair tan cords, one pair
    brown cords, three pair blue jeans, two blue, one tan and one yellow
    button-down shirt, new underwear (yea!), new socks (yea,yea!).  Oh, and
    in summer, a couple of those colored t's with the little pockets.  And
    shorts. But this year I couldn't find the classic type shorts - or I
    thought I had, but when he put them on this morning, he stomped
    around holding them out at the sides, "Where'd you buy these, the
    women's department?"  Seems they were a trendy cut.
    
    So if you classy dressers feel short changed, that's the type of
    person to blame it on.  But Kerry - why you need a dressing room
    for an orange t-shirt?
    					:> Dotsie

   
    
    re: <Note 130.4 by NCVAX1::COOPER "ruthless person">
                        -< those clothes look like 5 and dime stuff>-
    
   Women happen to care what the clothes looks like on them and another's
    opinion (mommies, sisters, friends) happen to come in handy.  Maybe
    some men should look into this practice then they won't walk out
    of the store with clothes that make them look like fools!!!
    
    CC

    ___________________________________________________________________________
    
    Silly stuff, CC.  Who's to say women "still" won't look like fools
    after obtaining another's opinion (mommies, sisters, friends)?
    
    Sherm    
    
    

              <<< RSTS32::USER$:[NOTES$LIBRARY]MENNOTES.NOTE;1 >>>
                         -< Topics of Interest to Men >-
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Note 130.9                      clear inequality                          9 of 9
PRANCR::AIKALA "I can tell by your trembling smile"  20 lines  12-JUL-1987 04:44
                      -< Another's opinion schminion... >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------  
    re: <Note 130.4 by NCVAX1::COOPER "ruthless person">
                        -< those clothes look like 5 and dime stuff>-
    
    Women happen to care what the clothes looks like on them and another's
    opinion (mommies, sisters, friends) happen to come in handy.  Maybe
    some men should look into this practice then they won't walk out
    of the store with clothes that make them look like fools!!!
    
    CC

    ___________________________________________________________________________
    
    Silly stuff, CC.  Who's to say women "still" won't look like fools
    after obtaining another's opinion (mommies, sisters, friends)?
    
    Sherm    
    
    

    Some guys just shop in the wrong stores.  All the places I go to
    have plenty of stuff and adequate mirrors and dressing rooms.  'Course
    I only go to places that have that and tailoring, 'cause there are
    very few coats or pants that fit me off the shelf.  (Being a short,
    chunky male in a country that designs for long, lean cowboys is
    frustrating too.)

    /Dave            

    RE: The comment about women caring what they look like. I tend to
    doubt it. Actually I'm sure they do but after spending this afternoon
    in a mall watching people go by I'd have to say that a lot more
    women were wearing silly looking clothes then men.
    
    A second thing I've noticed is that men who let women pick their
    clothes or 'help' them pick things out look silly a lot more then
    men do who do it themselves. I really believe that womens tastes
    in clothes and mens tastes are very very different. And I don't
    just mean that men a women where different things. I mean that what
    looks good on a man to himself often is different then what women
    would dress him in.
    
    This is especially true with dress clothes (those poor people who
    have to wear suits). I have a friend who has to wear suits. He looked
    like a total hick know nothing for years because his wife picked
    them all out. She thought they looked great but they sure stuck
    out in business meetings.
    
    
    			Alfred

    re .13
    
    So I take it you're still wearing your Nehru jacket to work?
    Or is it your leisure suit? Or your Adidas running shoes (to
    match your power suit)?

    It is true that some smaller stores (Marshall's, for example) have
    only one set of dressing rooms, and that these are typically near
    one of the women's clothing departments, but they have to be SOMEWHERE.
    The regular department stores have never been a problem for me,
    other than them insisting that the only fabric I'd want to wear
    is polyester.  But if one looks hard enough, you can find SOME decent
    men's clothes at these places.  
    
				Steve

    Wait a minute.  Why don't you need a dressing room to try on an orange
    t-shirt?  Are you supposed to take off the old green t-shirt you're
    wearing, toss it over the two square feet of display space devoted to
    men's handkercheifs, and try on the orange one right there in front of
    all the little old ladies shopping for black straw purses?  You
    certainly don't mean that the poor guy should buy the t-shirt on faith
    that the marked size is actually the size of the t-shirt, or that this
    particular shirt will be cut to fit over his robust chest or his
    equally robust beer belly, do you? 
    
    Re: the argument that stores don't provide decent facilities for
    the men because men don't shop as much --
    
    If that's what the stores are doing, then they're contributing to
    a vicious cycle that guarantees men will shop less. 
    
    It seems that most men don't like to shop very much.
    
    They go to a store, find a poor selection and inconvenient facilities.
    
    The unpleasant experience reinforces their dislike of shopping.

    Maybe if you look hard enough, you can find SOME decent men's clothes,
    but who wants to spend their entire life searching through 1% of the
    store's inventory looking for ONE nice pair of non-jeans pants for
    their son (or themselves)?  
    
    We can't all afford to shop at Jordan Marsh or exclusive men's stores.
    
    --bonnie 

    I hate shopping.

     re .16  *Thanks Bonnie* You left out the stores where
    everything on the rack is %(*^$ polyester !   :-)/2

    
    
    I like shopping, especially when my wife goes with me, I like and
    appreciate the comments that she makes, and the feedback she gives
    me about color coordination, fabrics and so on.
    
    But the point that this is indeed a vicious cycle is true, stores
    think that men don't like to shop, they will continue to provide
    the worst facilities to the "minority" of the shoppers, MEN.
    
    ART.
    

    You guys have is EASY.
    
    Try finding something that's decent in tall sizes.  I haven't found
    anyplace in Boston that carries a reasonable selection of suits
    in XL (Brooks Brothers has about 3 in my size, all something my
    father would find too conservative).  The story about plastic clothes
    goes double for Big and Tall shops.  They're still selling leisure
    suits and they haven't learned how to cut clothes so they fit.
    
    I sure miss Nordstroms (great department store on the west coast).
    They always had a few dozen suits in my size, sweaters, shirts,
    everything.
    
    Steveg

Inequality? E gadz, I would much rather walk clear across a store and spend
less money. What really stinks is that men's jeans are cheaper than 
women's, which means I usually buy mine in the men's dept. and then end up
walking clear across the store to try them on cuz we're not allowed to change 
in the men's dressing rooms. So you think you got problems?...pshaw..

    RE: .22

    Look on the bright side: Women get to buy their clothes not only from
    the already-gargantuan women's department, but from the men's dept. as
    well! 

    John M. 

    While I'm at it, how cum shoes jump from size 11 to size 12?  If you're
    an 11 1/2 like me, buying shoes is hell. 

    IN CASE SOMEONE SHOULD ASK:  No, I do not buy leather shoes. 

    re: suits for tall men
    
    There's a men's store in Nashua called Bergeron's (on Pearl street just
    a couple of blocks off Main street downtown) that has a very wide
    selection of sizes in dress shirts, sweaters, and suits. I shop there
    for some of my husband's Christmas presents because they're one of the
    few places in town that has decent stuff going down to my husband's
    size (14 1/2 - 15 in shirts).  The regular rack goes up to size 48, and
    then they have a rack labeled "Big and Tall sizes." 
    
    I've never bought a suit there so I can't testify as to either quality
    or price (and I can't say that I ever bothered to notice what the suits
    are made of) but if you're ever in the area it might be worth checking
    out. 
    
    --bonnie

    RE .0
    
    	Get yourself a Lands End and LL Bean catalogue and shop in a
    relaxed atmosphere

					=Ralph=

    For "dressing" rooms right next to the clothing racks (mens), the
    Kittery Trading Post (Kittery Maine, exit 2 off Maine Tpke), follow
    Route 1 North.
    
    They also "seem" to have larger sizes; but Brooks Bros or LL Beans
    they ain't. There stuff is durable, practical, and usable or other
    things besides "show'n'tell" persons. :^)
    
    .bob.
    

    re: shopping
    
    	I don't know about other men, but one of the reasons I hate
    shopping is because they never have anything in my size.  Now you
    ask is my size unusual?  No!  I am the average size!  Invariably
    the only thing in shoes, suits, pants, or anything else that comes
    in more variety than small medium and large, is what no one would
    wear.  It is hard enough to find something I like, then to find
    out there is nothing avaliable in "normal" sizes frustrates me to
    know end.  Thank God ties don't come a variety of sizes.
    
    DRC