Conference quark::mennotes-v1

The only thing I can compare this fire to is an observation I made a few 
years ago.

I went to visit a friend of mine at the University of New Haven.  He showed 
me an ad in the school newspaper announcing a meeting of the Black Students 
Union.  I could only think of the outrage that would be the result of a 
White Students Union.

I can't argue that there has been and continues to be an atmosphere that 
has sexism in it.  The thing I don't like is getting punished because some 
men are acting like assholes.

I would like to see incidents of sexism brought to light rather than having 
***** SOME ***** radical feminists push for more-than-equal rights.  To me, 
public ridicule and boycotting would be more effective [hit 'em where it 
hurst, in the wallet].

Then again, when I look at even RECENT history, I can't blame the more 
vociferous elements of the feminist movement for reacting to what they 
perceive as 'no movement' as regards to equality issues.

I just wish I didn't have to suffer for the actions of the sexist males.

        It strikes me as rather unfair that most of the worlds empathy is
        reserved for persons other than males. 
    
    You're claiming women get more empathy than men? Perhaps so, if
    true I'd wonder WHY it was so rather than complaining about fairness,
    and see what I could do to change it. (By the way, I think you mean
    sympathy not empathy. Empathy is something you have, sympathy is
    something you get.) I get plenty of sympathy, and I empathize with
    many men. On the other hand, most men get uncomfortable if I go
    up to them, give them a big hug, and say I see you're feeling down,
    I hope you feel better. Women don't seem to have this problem as
    badly, either giving or recieving. Perhaps this has something to
    do with it. Women get twice as much sympathy because they accept
    it from women as well as men.
    
        I ask you, is it fair that male should have to suffer taunts
        brickbats, and criticism when women, for example, get much more
        supportive and constructive advise?
    
    If you don't like the taunts, and would like constructive advice,
    JUST SAY SO. It's been my experience that if you face the taunter,
    admit the problem, and ask for help that you'll often get support
    and constructive advice. But it's hard, and it doesn't ALWAYS work.
    Don't complain about the unfairness of it all, just say, "I have
    this problem, can anyone help me?"
    
        Are men lesser creatures, disposable? Should flawed specimens be
        euthanized like dogs? 
    
    C'mon, self-pity is an ugly thing. Feeling sorry for yourself, while
    it can be fun isn't very productive or constructive.
    
        There is a lot of male bitterness in the world yet noone wants to
        do anything about it. 
    
    I do. Why are you bitter? Can I help?
    
        Even men save their empathy for women and children. I haven't heard
        a kind word to any of the bitter individuals since this file has
        been open. 
    
    Hey, what can I say. I do have more empathy with women and children.
    This isn't exclusive though, I have a LOT of male friends that I
    care about (*love*) A LOT.
    
        Instead it has become a mirror image of what womanotes was earlier,
        a forum for Gender Wars. 
    
    Different problem I think. There *IS* a lot of bitterness directed
    at men, here and in Womannotes, but this bitterness often reflects
    real problems. Just like your bitterness reflects a real problem,
    we just can't ignore either of them.
    
        Are we going to get better with time, or are we just going to
        switch the fight from this file to that one to this one...?
    
    Well, I'll try right now. I can sympathize with your bitterness,
    I often feel that as a man I'm at a disadvantage in the support
    and sympathy department. I DON'T get as much support, and sympathy.
    But I have found that part of the problem is that I don't ASK for
    it. Part of the male shtick is to be strong and stoic and not need
    things like that. BULLSHIT! I DO want sympathy when I'm down, and
    support when I'm scared. My anger is usually redirected hurt, and
    I really appreciate those people who can see past the anger and
    deal with the hurt.
    
    What are you mad about Bob?
    
    	-- Charles

    
    I was surprised to see this topic entered. I thought I might be
    the only one who felt his way. 
    
    .0 and .1 bring up points that I too have wondered about.
    
    These "gender wars" make me weary and I am tired of being generalized
    as the enemy because I'm a male. I feel like a collective guilt
    trip is being layed on me for the condition of things as they are
    today.
    
    Identifying problems and working toward a solution, I can support.
    Identifying a group as the "cause of" or as the "problem" and then
    venting vituperative diatribes against that group accomplishes nothing.
    

    I don't like gender wars, either.  Bob, do you read HUMAN_RELATIONS
    at all?  That is probably the conference I like the most, as it
    deals with humans (big surprise :-)).  As a woman, when I read notes
    from anyone with a problem, or someone who is going thru an experience
    I may have had;  I am almost compulsive about entering a reply.
    Whether you are male or female is not the issue.  A lot of people
    (ladies and gents) are hurting out there--it seems to me that if
    you can offer some encouragement, support, or compassion, it doesn't
    matter WHO you are offering it to.  
    
    I agree with Charlie, too--if you have a problem or question or
    whatever, ASK for some help!  Some people I've never met in these
    files have turned my day around--just because I admitted I didn't
    know everything.
    
    Please don't be discouraged, Bob.
    
    Jane

    I too dislike being tarred with the same wide brush applied to those
    who really do oppress women, but it's something we've all got to
    live with at some time or another.  I cope with it by demonstrating
    that I don't fit the stereotype, and eventually the open-minded
    ones take notice.  Those who don't I don't waste time worrying about.
    
    I suspect that this topic is a result of a recent backlash against
    men in WOMANNOTES.  I've seen this before and expect it will blow
    over as it has in the past.  For now, I'm just sitting back and
    not getting defensive about it.
    						Steve

    I think there is a basic biological reason for the empathy discussed
    in the base note.
    For want of a better name I call it the belly up syndrome.
    Watch two dogs fight.
    Two male dogs will tear each other to shreds.
    So will two female dogs.
    Let a male fight a female and the male immediately "turns belly
    up", offering his soft underbelly to be ripped out rather than to
    kill a member of the species that might propogate it.
    Men naturally support women. It's inbred.

    
    I, too, occasionally find all this vitriol directed at white males
    disheartening.
    
    I am also amazed at the powers attributed to us by whoever it is with
    the complaint.  I once asked the readers of WOMANNOTES how the hell it
    is we males came into power at all, and got a fairly informative
    answer, but it seemed too simplistic in the end, after I thought about
    it.  We were willing to be violent, so we got the power.  Depressing.
    
    I can see where this idea might have come across.  What amazes me
    is the power of this myth to perpetuate itself.
    
    I'm trying to adopt Steve Lionel's policy, but it's hard.  I am a lot
    better at simply ignoring some unjust barb directed at me then to try
    and discourage them from doing so.
                                    
    We seem to be unequipped as a race to deal with one another on purely
    individual terms.  No matter how hard we try to be open-minded,
    no matter how often we tell ourselves the prejudices we hold are
    irrational, it seems that we cannot prevent the effects of stereotyping
    from affecting what we say and do.
                                                                     
    A human failing, I suppose.  We all come equipped with a different
    set.
    
    DFW

    RE: 2
        
    > There is this notion that white males posess some power or influence
    > that surpasses all efforts of other minority groups. 
    
    They don't possess it, but they are born to it. White males have far
    more opportunities to advance than anyone else because the current
    power structure in government and business tends to favor and foster
    its own kind -- white males. It doesn't take genius to see this in
    action every day. 
    
    If you look at the people in power in the U.S., Canada, and Europe,
    there is a rather high proportion of white males (worldwide those in
    power tend to be male, albeit not necessarily white). 
                           
    > I'd like to state for the record that we white males don't possess
    > any such power or insight. The feminists assign us powers far and away
    > greater than we ever knew we possessed. 
                           
    Try telling that to a woman who has been passed over for a promotion,
    raise, or job, or to any similar minority candidate. I don't think
    they'd buy your arguement for a second, & I doubt they'd sympathize
    with you unless you were in that minority of white males who attempt
    to break the traditional channels of power. 
    
    So, is it okay to dump on white males? No, but I sure can understand
    why it happens & I'm never surprised when it does happen. The old saw
    from the '60s -- You are either the problem or the solution -- still
    applies. Unless one is willing to take radical action to change the
    current situation I would'nt expect the attitude toward white males to
    change, and as long as white males wait for change, rather than start
    it, they will be perceived as supporting white males in power.
    

    re .7
    As to dogs - the behavior you describe happens between an 
    *unneutered* male and female dog

              <<< RSTS32::USER$:[NOTES$LIBRARY]MENNOTES.NOTE;1 >>>
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Note 124.7                    A final thought...                         7 of 10
CEODEV::FAULKNER "Mr Manners"                        10 lines   6-JUL-1987 12:13
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    I think there is a basic biological reason for the empathy discussed
    in the base note.
    For want of a better name I call it the belly up syndrome.
    Watch two dogs fight.
    Two male dogs will tear each other to shreds.
    So will two female dogs.
    Let a male fight a female and the male immediately "turns belly
    up", offering his soft underbelly to be ripped out rather than to
    kill a member of the species that might propogate it.
    Men naturally support women. It's inbred.

    Suzanne, are you really surprised that women's emotions can have
    the same effect on men that men are claimed (by various women noters)
    to have on women?  Men who did not think of themselves as "oppressors"
    understandably get upset when labelled as such generically.  The
    name-calling that is being cheered in WOMANNOTES right now, while
    I think really aimed at one or two specific men, is offensive to
    those men who are trying to help, trying to understand, trying to
    refrain from manipulating the women in their life.
    
    In the past, I've spoken out against the vitriol, but much of it
    right now is concentrated in notes that I have been excluded from
    participating in.  Like some other men, I consider myself a guest
    in WOMANNOTES.  Like a polite guest, I know when to keep my mouth
    shut.  Instead I will lobby behind the scenes for some water on
    the flames.
    					Steve

     re .12:
     
     Frankly, I think the sentiments expressed in your note are full of
     crap. 
     
     Suggesting without a shred of supporting evidence that "some men" are
     intimidated by a challenge from women is at best pointless -- some
     women are afraid to touch a cat, and some Burmese don't like the taste
     of mustard, so what conclusions are we to draw?.  At worst, the note
     is a crude effort to generalize about men; it carries about as much
     weight as David Duke saying that "some Blacks" are too lazy to work for
     a living. 
     
     Same thing for the silly statements about "why so many men seem upset
     ... these days" -- not only is it without foundation, but it would
     seem that the converse is true: the notes file that has become
     BOO_HOO.NOTE is the one with the little cross underneath the circle,
     not the one with the arrow on the upper-right corner.
                                      
     --Mr Topaz 
     
     Equting reactions to
     feminism to that of communism, 

    Somehow I think Don's comments in .15 are directed against one of
    my replies, rather than .12 which is Suzanne's.  Whatever....
    
    					Steve

     re .17:
     
     I shall take your advice to "lighten up" under advisement,
     particularly considering the torrent of screeds and somber clouds of
     personnel policies that have recently been written under your name.
     
     I'll also make a final effort to explain this to you:  You will always
     -- _always_ -- be able to find a subset of any large group that reacts
     a particular way.  Men who don't like outspoken women, women who don't
     like quiet men, white who don't like cauliflower, DEC people who are
     prejudiced toward <_______> (name your favorite ethnic group), French
     citizens who hate cheese -- I guarantee that you can find examples of
     these.  So what?  You can spend a lot of energy, as you and others
     have done in the other conference, trying to convince a few men that
     they ought to accept outspoken women, and you've had an expected level
     of success. 
     
     Why bother to try?  Isn't it a lot more sensible and productive to
     accept that there are some men who don't accept outspoken women and
     pay no attention to them?  Lyndon LaRouche runs all over the world
     telling us that Henry Kissinger, Walter Mondale, and the Queen of
     England are involved in a plot to restore the Hapsburgs and turn the
     world upside-down, so we should build laser weapons and teach our kids
     Greek -- can't you see that most people (except for the press, which
     is amused by the guy) just ignore LaRouche rather than trying to
     change his mind?
     
     The point is this: it is both silly and useless to try to get every
     man to share your opinion.
     
     --Mr Topaz

re .18 [and a few others, but .18 covered it]

Suzanne, I'm one of those people who has contemplated deleting Womannotes 
from my notebook many times.  Mostly because, even though I know the 
'man-flames' are directed at one or two individuals, I just can't keep 
reading the same thing without wondering "is there something I've done that 
makes me fall into that category?".

You see, if a man believes that he is 'above' the sexist remarks of a few, 
it doesn't take very long before he wonders whether or not he's being 
arrogant in a "that doesn't apply to me" attitude or if he really *is* 
above that.  You begin to doubt yourself when you see a long drawn-out 
proclamation on the evils of men, EVEN WHEN YOU KNOW IT'S NOT POINTED 
DIRECTLY AT YOU!!

I'll admit that, after reading a few notes, I am sometimes ashamed to be a 
member of this gender.  Then I read a note about how a woman got mail 
chastising her for not standing in the party line 'against the common 
enemy, men', and I am almost beyond belief.

I like to think of myself as a moderate conservative.  Not rabid or 
militant or lunatic-fringe, just moderate.  When I see other conservatives 
going off on the lunatic fringe, I cringe because I know *I'm* going to get 
painted by the same brush.

In the meantime notes [and mail] from Suzanne Conlon, the Bonnies and a 
couple of others keep me reading.  I WILL mention names.  That way, you 
know who flames and praises are directed at.  If someone is flaming me, I 
prefer them to say "Hey!  Dave!  You're a jerk!  Here's why!".  That way, 
at least I know who they are mad at and [usually] why.  If I'm particularly 
inspired by someone relating an experience, I don't hesitate to name names.

I believe that the best defense/offense against the offensive notes is 
holding them up to the light.  Then, there is no question as to who the 
offending member is.

I believe also that Mennotes and Womannotes have a lot more good in them 
than bad.  That's why I still read them.  Gods willing [yes, plural, there 
are a lot of beliefs out there] it will stay that way or still improve 
more.

    re -1:
    
    Thanks, DJPL, that's a good, honest explanation that I
    can relate to.
    
    	-Ellen

    
    Re: .21
    
    You saved me a lot of time as your thoughts pretty much reflect
    my feelings. In fact, I couldn't have expressed my thoughts better.
    

    Hey DJPL,
    Its sensitive guys like you that give women like me the faith that (in
    the final analysis) we will be able to work things out together.
    Hang in there_;-)_Mary                      

    I appreciate that things have calmed down somewhat, and by all means
    I have no desire to stir things up again, but I must confess that
    I am still confused somewhat by some of what has been said, and
    I would like to get some specific recomendations as to a course
    of action I might take.
    	I do not feel like I have some unfair advantage because I am
    a white male, but I have tried to understand how that might be so
    that I can eliminate any unfair advantage that I am taking.  I would
    like specific recomendations, so let me be somewhat specific about
    my own situation.  
    	I was born a white male of resonably poor parents.  I attended
    public school in a poor neighborhood under teachers who did not
    in the main go out of their way to give me or my classmates a
    particularly good education.  Fortunately, because I live in a
    wonderful country, a library was avaliable that contained a wealth
    of knowledge, and it cost nothing to have access to the world of
    books.  I can remember reading all the Hardy Boy series and Tom
    Swift series, but I also read all the Nancy Drew series. As I matured
    I read a wide variety of authors, many of whom were women.
    	When I entered public high school I began to take advanced courses
    in various subjects, many of whom had women teachers, and females
    comprised at least half of the students.  Upon graduation both the
    valadictorian and salutatorian were women.
    	My first job was as a checker in a grocery store.  The majority
    of my coworkers were women.  I worked my way through college.  It
    was a long and difficult task that took a period of eight years.
    I didn't see anyone giving any handouts, but I did qualify for some
    student loans due to my parents financial condition.  I have always
    been under the impression that these were avaliable to all sexes
    and minorities.
    	Long before I graduated I realised that an undergraduate degree
    in psychology (my major) was not going to open a lot of doors. 
    Employers wanted to know what I could do for them in the way of
    concrete skills.  These were not easy to obtain.  So I went to the
    Army and asked what kind of training I could get in electronics,
    and found a good program that offered the training I have used ever
    since.  The training didn't come cheap, I worked for little more
    than minimum wage for good old Uncle Sam for 5 years.  I took my
    knowledge and experience to Digital when I left the service, and
    entered a job in Field Service.  By the way, any woman of resonable
    intelligence could have gotten the same training and gone the same
    route.  
    	I work now as a Support Engineer in Memphis.  I am an individual
    contributor, no one works for me.  I do not have the opportunity
    to advance women in their careers, or for that matter anyone else.
    I work for a very competent black man who I don't think hired me
    because I am a white male.  
    	I try to be a good citizen, pay my taxes, vote when I can. 
    I feel badly that people suffer from discrimination, but the question
    boils down to what can I do about it.  I try to promote equality
    in my speech and deeds, and look to eliminate any unfair advantage
    I may have over anyone.  But I cannot bring myself to support
    unfair advantage for anyone.  If I have had some "hugh" unfair
    advantage over someone else because I am a white male, I missed
    it.  
    	I have three lovely daughters, as well as a fine son.  I deeply
    want a world for them where they will all be supported and encourged
    and given every opportunity to suceed.  Somehow I don't think that
    encouraging anger and resentment for past wrong doings will accomplish
    that.  
    	Give me concrete suggestions, don't throw stones at me for being
    a white male.  Don't sign your notes "In Sisterhood", for it makes
    me feel excluded, and in my heart and mind I feel the cause of justice
    and equality to be my as much my cause as yours.  Don't make the
    "bad guy" of every popular movie, the insensitive ignorant bigot,
    a white male.  Insensitivity, ignorance, and bigotry comes in all
    races and genders.  Two wrongs to not make a right.  If you are
    angry, and believe me I am not saying you don't have cause, with
    white men, then give us guidence as to what we can do to make things
    better.  Please don't ask me to call myself a feminist because I
    believe women to be the equal of men; I don't ask you to call
    yourselves "masculanist" because you believe men to be equal to
    women.  Don't blame me because most of our government leaders are
    men, you have the power to vote just as I do, and have had it as
    long as I have.  I will gladly vote for any woman who runs for office
    who is a better candidate than her opponent.  Give me a fair way
    to support your cause, because I want my son to have just a good
    a chance as my daughters.
    
    DRC
    
    P.S. Thanks for the kind words that were spoken for those who are
    not seeking to put women down.  It helps me to know that you do
    know that all white males are not the same, and our support is
    appreciated.
    
    

    The problem is very simply stated.
    
    There are people who, given a white male, and a woman with EXACTLY
    the same background and experience, will choose the white male.
    Likewise a white male and a black male. This is unfortunate, but
    it is a fact. This fact means that white males, no matter how
    well intentioned, have an advantage in the job market.
    
    Furthermore, because this has historically been the case, it is self
    perpetuating. The reasoning goes, "There are fewer qualified women and
    minorities applying for jobs, so they must be intrinsically less
    qualified." The problem becomes one of acheiving an equitable steady
    state in the face of past inequities. It is not easy to do this
    without perpetrating injustices in turn.
    
    Claiming that white males do not have such an intrinsic advantage is
    tantamount to claiming that is no prejudice in our society, or that
    this prejudice is evenly divided male and female, black and white.
    No you, as a white male, are not necessarily responsible for someone
    else's prejudice, but you (as a class), benefit from it.
    
    The question is not whether or not you as an individual deserve
    the things you've gotten, but whether a woman, with the same
    qualifications and training, could EXPECT the same results.
    
    Just because it's not your personal fault doesn't mean there isn't
    a problem.
    
    What can you do? Support, with time, energy, and MONEY, those
    organizations actively promoting equality of opportunity. Practice in
    your personal life the belief that both sexes are equally valuable,
    equally competent, equally qualified. Do not tolerate sexism. When you
    see it, point it out, when you find yourself perpetrating it,
    apologize. Expect others to treat you this way, and ask for it when you
    don't get it. Recognize those who HAVE had to struggle against sexism
    and racism, and honor them for their efforts to make our society
    better.
    
    Finally, don't be sanctimonious or overbearing... :-)
    
    	-- Charles

    I'm sorry Charles but we either don't live in the same world or
    we are just looking from different sides.
    
    There are people who, given a white male, and a woman with EXACTLY
    the same background and experience, will choose the woman.
    Likewise a white male and a black male. This is unfortunate, but
    it is a fact. This fact means that black males and women, no matter how
    well intentioned, have an advantage in the job market.
    
    Claiming that black males do not have such an intrinsic advantage is
    tantamount to claiming that is no prejudice in our society, or that
    this prejudice is evenly divided male and female, black and white.
    No you, as a black male (if you are black), are not necessarily 
    responsible for someone else's prejudice, but you (as a class), 
    benefit from it.

    I've sat in on meetings to discuss candidates for jobs were people
    have said that they were afraid not to recommend someone for fear
    of being called a racist or a sexist. I have talked to personal
    people undergoing EEO audit who had to justify why every minority
    or female candidate was not hired. The not hiring of a white male
    needed no explanation. The only racism that I've seen first hand
    is against white males, and only sexist hiring was pro-woman.
    
			Alfred

    I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I personally believe (and
    it is a belief) that white males are discriminated against to a
    much lesser degree than women and minorities, if indeed they are
    discriminated against at all.
    
    I was NOT just referring to hiring, compensation, and promotion,
    though they are important, I was referring to all aspects of our
    society.
    
    Furthermore, I am NOT an apologist for existing AA and EEO programs,
    if you read what I said, you will find that I said explicitly that
    it is very difficult to redress existing wrongs in this area without
    perpetrating futher injustice.
    
    Anyone who claims that current EEO and AA programs have swung the
    pendulum so far in the other direction that being a white male is
    an active handicap in todays worlds is indeed living in some other
    world than me.
    
    I look around at the number of women and minorities in the general
    population, and I look at the number of women and men in technical
    positions, and looks at the number of women managers IN DEC, and
    I can draw only one conclusion.
    
    Women are obviously unqualified for higher management.
    
    	-- Charles
    
    P.S. I am a white male... what "side" are *you* on?

    
    Re: .27
    
    CAn you inform me as to what organizations exist that actively
    promote equality of opportunity?
    
    I know that there are groups that promote women, black people, etc
    but I am unaware of any that promote actual "blind" equality.
    
    	Thanks.		

    RE: .27
    
    	Charles,
    
    	I am not saying that there is not a problem with bigotry in
    this country, or that women and minority groups have not suffered
    more than this problem than I.  I wish there was a simple cure for
    ignorance.  I do honor those who struggle in this cause.  Personally
    I believe Dr. Martin Luther King was a great American and in his
    honor I always take a vacation day or use my personal holiday to
    honor his birth.  If we all did this, maybe Digital would get the
    message and declare it a company holiday, but I have no power over
    that other than to take the day off myself.  
    	You mention the "intrinsic advantage" that I have in the job
    market as a white male.  One of the main reason I work for Digital
    is because I believe it to be a company dedicated to equal treatment
    for all.  To state that there are not enough women managers working
    for DEC as some kind of "proof" that discrimination is occuring
    here is simplistic.  My question is what kind of actions can I as
    an individual take to better promote equality.  Are you suggesting
    that when Digital made me a job offer I should have said "No, I
    think I will turn this job down so that more positions will be left
    avaliable for women."  If so, how many job offers would I have needed
    to turn down before I would have compensated for my "intrinsic
    advantage?"
    	According to Webster's New World Dictionary, to be sanctimonious
    is defined as "pretending to be very holy of pious; affecting sanctity
    or righteousness."  Overbearing is defined as "acting in a dictatorial
    manner; arrogant; domineering."  Arrogant, the subdefinition that
    I believe you think applied in this situation is defined as "full
    of or due to unwarrented pride and self-importance;
    overbearing, haughty."
    	The phrases that stand out are "pretending to be pious" and
    "unwarrented pride."  The implication that I draw from your comment
    is that I am wrong not to feel guilty for the prejudice of others
    and that I should feel some shame for the accident of my birth;
    that I have no right to feel proud that I do not discriminate against
    others or that I have gotten to where I am without walking on the
    backs of others.  
    	By saying these things I don't believe your being fair to me
    as an individual, and isn't fairness what this is all about?
    I am very serious in my search for ways in which "I" can promote
    true equality, and I don't believe name-calling helps us all pull
    together for a commom cause.  Believe it or not, inspite of the
    fact I am a white male, I am not the enemy of women or minorities.
    
    DRC
    
      
    

    re: .26 and .32 --
    
    No, you shouldn't feel guilty because you are what you are and who
    you are.  
    
    Since you appear to have done an excellent job of educating yourself
    and moving yourself into a good position in the job market while
    overcoming considerable social disadvantages using techniques that are,
    as you point out, available to everyone who knows how to use them,
    might I suggest that you share this ability to help others learn how to
    use these same tools and techniques? 
    
    The Big Brother/Big Sister program, Boys' Club/Girls' Club, the adult
    literacy program, and the career counselling offered by many Y's around the
    country come immediately to mind, though I'm sure there are many
    other possiblities.  
    
    One of the most subtle discriminations of being a member of a
    disadvantaged group, be it a racial or social minority, an ethnic
    group, or even a disfunctional family, is that you don't know what your
    resources are.  It's very difficult for those of us who have made it
    out to see how baffled those who haven't helped themselves are.
    
    Right now I'm working with a friend who is 36, recently divorced, the
    mother of 1, and totally innocent of any knowledge of how to support
    herself or get ahead.  It's hard to believe that she doesn't know how
    to get a job, but for all practical purposes she doesn't. I'm trying to
    talk her into going back to school and finishing her degree, but she
    doesn't understand how that effort now will pay off in $$$ down the
    road.  She doesn't want to be a checkout clerk for the rest of her
    life, but she is only beginning to see that by starting as a checkout
    clerk, she can work her way to where she wants to be. 
    
    There are hundreds of thousands of people like her in this country --
    grownups who never knew they had a chance (but it's never too late) and
    children who are going to repeat their mistakes if somebody like us
    doesn't help. 

    Good luck, whatever you decide to do.
    
    --bonnie

    Sigh. I should know better. This situation is depressing if only
    for it's familiarity. (Almost as depressing and familiar as the
    interminable VMS vs Unix arguments... OOPS, never mind, I didn't
    say that, PLEASE don't start arguing about VMS and Unix!)
    
    The situation I'm describing is this:
    
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Person 1: <Mumble group> has <fumble characteristic>.
    
    Person 2: Hey! Wait! *I'm* a <mumble> and *I* don't have <fumble>.
    
    Person 1: I was talking about <mumble's> in general!
    
    Person 2: Well *I'm* a member of that class and it doesn't apply
    *to* *me*!
    
    or
    
    Person 2: Well it's not *my* fault, what do you expect *me* to do
    about it?!
    
    Person 1: <incoherent sputtering>
    
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Now for my incoherent sputterings.
    
    White males, in general, have an advantage over women, and blacks,
    in general, in many areas of our society, including, but not limited
    to, the job market.
    
    This general statement obviously doesn't apply to all white males,
    all women, or all blacks. This statement doesn't try to assign GUILT
    to those who benefit from the situation, nor require them to do
    a damn thing about it.
    
    Clear?
    
    On the other hand, if you believe that this is in fact the situation,
    there ARE things you can do about it, regardless of your sex, race,
    height, or number of paperclips in your desk drawer. You can fight
    those attitudes which perpetuate this situation, and support those
    organizations and corporations which are trying to do something.
    
    I'm proud to say that I believe that Digital is one of those
    corporations. There are still problems within Digital, but many
    fewer and more easily corrected that in *most* other corporations
    I'm familiar with. So, feel good about the fact that you work for
    Digital, and feel good about yourself for making things better.
    Certainly don't feel badly just because you happen to be a white
    male.
    
    As for the remarks about sanctimoniousness and overbearingness (is that
    a word?) they were ABOUT ME! I thought *I* was being sanctimonious and
    overbearing! Sheesh! *I* thought I was being about as subtle as a rock
    on the head. Guess not.
    
    	-- Charles
    
    P.S. at the risk of starting another flame, "groups" that I support
    that support equal opportunity for all are Planned Parenthood, NARAL,
    and selected politicians. I also support various "women's"
    organizations because I believe that we must increase women's
    opportunity in order to achieve equality. Many of the issues and
    organizations I consider "equal opportunity" are usually considered
    "women's", again at the risk of starting flames, I support company
    sponsored/supported daycare as equalizing opportunity, at least
    in the near term.

>        White males, in general, have an advantage over women, and blacks,
>    in general, in many areas of our society, including, but not limited
>    to, the job market.

    I believe that you believe this. I don't think that you are bad
    for beliving it. I just think you are believing something that I
    don't believe to be true. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
    If there is an area of in our society were white males have a general
    advantage it's vastly overwhelmed by the areas, *especially* the
    job market, were they are at a disadvantage.
    
        			Alfred

    Charles,
    	I'm sorry I misunderstood who you were referring to by the 
    sanctimonious and overbearing remark.  I appreciate your suggestions,
    and those of Bonnie.  There is an inner-city school here
    in Memphis that the local DEC office has adopted.  One of the things
    we do for the school (it's a grade school) is to spend an hour once
    a week working with different students in their reading.  The children
    are the future of us all, and the small seeds we plant today will
    lead to the mighty oaks of tomorrow.  Surely we each have at least
    an hour a week.  The students we help are all races and both sexes.
    They have one common factor.  They all need and appreciate our help.
    
    DRC
    

    Maybe it helps to look at this another way -
    
    What I hear some white men saying is that they don't believe they
    have any particular advantage in the workplace.  Maybe this is
    just semantics, but I'd have to say I agree.  What *has* been true
    in the past (and is still with us in more subtle ways) is that other
    groups (minorities, women, homosexuals) have been at a *disadvantage*.
    
    What does this mean?  You, a white male, have worked *very* hard and
    have achieved success.  You have competed with your talents, brains,
    and hard work.  Just because the system creates disadvantages for other
    groups *does not* in any way mean that *you* deserve your success any
    less!  All this means is that other groups should be given the same
    chance for that success - that is, the ability to compete based
    *only* on talents, brains, and hard work!
    
    You deserve your successes.  So do many others who have not gotten
    there yet because of discrimination.
    
    No need to feel guilty!  Congratulations for your achievements.
    
    	-Ellen

    I was discussing this same issue with a friend of mine last week, and
    he raised an interesting question: 
    
    He recently got a promotion to manage a small marketing group
    (***NOT*** at DEC).  He had worked very hard at his job and had been
    hoping for a promotion, but he didn't expect to get it for some time
    yet because there was another person in the group who was clearly
    superior and clearly (at least in the view of the others in the group)
    deserved the promotion.  But my friend got the promotion and the other
    person, who happens to be an Oriental woman, didn't get it.  She's now
    leaving their company. 
    
    My friend is deeply upset by this because he feels in this case he is
    getting an advantage solely because he's a white male.  However, he
    worked hard for the job, feels he's qualified, and doesn't think that
    his turning down the job would have meant the woman who deserved it
    would have received the promotion. 

    I don't know what to think, either.  I personally think he should have
    at least let his management know he didn't approve of their behavior,
    but he was convinced that nothing would be gained from it.
    
    Does anybody have any practical suggestions that I could pass on to my
    friend?  What would you do in his shoes? 

    --bonnie

    
    Caveat: It's probably easier to say this than do it.
    
    I would have asked why not?  Not because I'd be looking to rock
    management's boat, since that probably wouldn't do either of us
    any good.  I would have simply said that I would have thought <name>
    was in line for this, 'cause she's better at this stuff than I am.
    
    DFW