Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    
    A while back my husband and I went out to a bar for a couple of beers
    and some dancing.  I was wearing my black "Pat Benatar" jumpsuit (for
    his benefit). 
    
    When I went to the happy-hour snack table to get some more munchies,
    the man in line behind of me looked me over and told me I had a nice
    ass. Well, remarks like that are the price you pay for wearing a black
    jumpsuit, so I didn't punch him.  Besides, he looked like he meant it. 
    
    He then asked, "You married to that guy?" 
    
    Figuring it was easier to say yes than to start a fight, I said
    yes, we'd been married for 5 years (at the time).
    
    He said, "How many times did ya cheat on him this month?"
    
    I was so surprised I told him the truth, that I don't cheat.
    
    He laughed and said, apparently quite sincerely, "I'm disappointed
    in you. You looked like an honest woman."
    
    By now I was thoroughly intrigued, so I said, "I am honest, I love
    my husband, I have never cheated on him.  What makes you think I'm
    not telling you the truth?"
    
    He said, "All women cheat.  They can't stop themselves. The best you
    can hope for is a woman who tells you the truth when she does it." 
    
    And he took his plate of sesame crackers and cheese spread back
    to his table.

    Now, it's possible that this man had just discovered that the wife he
    believed faithful was cheating on him, but all in all I concluded that
    a man who believes that no woman is capable of decent moral behavior
    and keeping her promises probably hates women.
    
    --bonnie 

    
    I have to agree with Bonnie.  (Hi ya!!)  I know a man with the same
    type of attitude as this guy she talks about.  He is known for making
    crude and rude comments about women.  Feels that time spent with
    his "buddies" is more important than time spent with his current
    SO.  (Granted, time apart is important,  but with him it's like
    we (women) are second class citizens....  When told about my daughters
    modeling career his first question was "When will she be appearing
    in Playboy!"  
    
    A woman hater in my opinion is a person who sees women as only sex
    objects, thinks we are only capable of having babies and cleaning
    a house (and some of us not even the latter!), and that we are only
    here for their use and/or abuse.  A woman hater has no respect for
    women as human beings and uses women only to his own benefit. 
    
    My

    What's a woman hater?  Probably someone who doesn't care for himself
    very much either...
    
    Marge
    

re: .3
    
>  <sdt>  ~--e--~  Eagles_Believe_"Unlucky-In-Love"_2_Often_Breeds_Hate

I don't know, Eagle...some of the real creepy woman haters seem like
they've been that way all their lives.  Plus you might find that some
are just general "people haters", but with a pronounced tendency to
pick on any group that's easily identifiable as "different" from them:
women, people of other races, people with different sexual preferences,
etc.  Even self-hate is usually formulated as hatred for "the other" (in
that particular case, the You that you feel you should be hating the You
that is).

    I believe that whem most people "hate" some general class of people,
    not individuals, they do it because of some real or imagined harm
    done to themselves or THEIR class.  Marge's comment also applies
    - it's usually those who don't think much of themselves who tend
    to denigrate others in an attempt to boost themselves.
    
    					Steve

    I agree with -1,but the reaction that *immediately* came
    to mind when I read the base note  was "ask Ted Bundy,
    he knows".
    Woman hating in the extreme is personified by people like
    that,and there are many men who do not take their feelings
    to the extent that Bundy has,but where does the line exist 
    between a 'casual' woman hater ,as described in .1,and a 
    deadly killer ?  
    I apologise for introducing this macabre aspect ,but I honestly
    believe that there are keys in the behavior of most 'Women haters'
    to men like Bundy and that that behavior is far different than
    class or Racial hatred.
    
    Maybe the whole business of serial violence against women belongs
    in another note ,moderators?

    
         I must also agree with .6.  Mysogyny most often occurs in people
    who have a hard time differentiating between an individual's acts
    and an entire group's acts.  Perhaps the misogynist has had negative
    experiences with a few women, but attributes the negative
    characteristics to the entire gender.  Standard for haters of any
    group.
    
                                Bubba
    

    re .8 Yup. What Ayn Rand called the 'collective fallacy' - 
    all members of the group act the same way. It works, if
    you forget that each of "them" has free will, and chooses
    his/her own values.

    Psychology texts will tell you that woman-hating has to do with
    unresolved conflicts surrounding the mother.
    
    --bonnie

    
    re: .10
    
    	I'm not sure about truth of this either....my brother had
    	a real difficult relationship with my mother but from his
    	other relationships with women he didn't seem to be a 
    	"woman hater"...  Most women actually thought he was a 
    	great guy!  But he didn't have much love for our mother...
    	Sad, but true.  Luckily she is the type that forgave him
    	and loved him anyway!  
    
    	Myra
    

    .1 brings to mind a similar (actually several) situation.  In the
    Air Force, every time that my wife and I were separated, the guys
    always tried to convince me that she was being unfaithful.  They
    believed that any woman separated by several hundred miles was going
    to be unfaithful.  They almost convinced me but my trust of her
    won out in the long run.  After all, she used up all of her leave
    time and even persuaded her supervisor to give her some extra time
    off (under the table) so that she could fly down to see me once
    a month.  If she had something else going, I don't think she would
    have gone out of her way to see me.
    
    On a bathroom wall someone wrote "When you rejoin your wife, you
    will find her just like you left her...
    
    freshly laid." (Actually, the last word was different)
    
    Some guys actually accused me of being stupid for being vain enough
    to believe that she would wait for me.  I wonder how many of them
    are as happily married as I am.
    
    Spence

    Spence -- 
    
    She obviously knows what a gem of a man she's got. 
    
    --bonnie
    

    
>    If she had something else going, I don't think she would have gone out
>    of her way to see me. 

    If one trusts the other well enough, the above criterion would NEVER be
    applied.  What if she genuinely could not have managed to join you? 

    There are lots of couples who have to live on separate continents, ten
    thousands miles apart, who can not see each other for at least an year
    or more because of some bureaucracy.  How does their marriage survive so
    easily without even any doubts about each other's faithfulness entering
    into their minds?

- Vikas     

    Vikas, the line that you quoted was an observation, *not* a criterion.
    
    There are many, many couples in the Air Force who are separated
    for a year or more.  There is what they call a 'remote tour' in
    which the military member must go to some remote site for a year,
    unaccompanied.  There is also a very high divorce rate in the military.
    My wife and I, after 10 years of service, had never had a remote.
    We were both hot for a remote and would be separated for a year
    if we had stayed in.  If I remember correctly, this was the #1 reason
    for our getting out when we did.  We didn't want to take the chance
    of being separated.  Also, since they did away with the 'join spouse'
    program, the chances of an E5 and an E6 being stationed together
    were pretty slim.  This could have been up to a 3 year separation.
    Given the option, I'd rather live in a gutter and eating out of
    other people's trash cans than to be separated from my wife for
    a year!  We had discussed this option before we got out and agreed
    that it would be better to be bridge people and together rather
    than rich and apart.
    
    Spence

    Sorry Spence, I misunderstood your sentence.
    
    - Vikas

re .10

	The hatred of women can also result from psychopathy which
	is the pathologically inability to see others points of view
	and therefore be at risk in seeing other people not as they
	really are but as a home-grown projection.  In "Psycho" the
	mother is a key character of influence,  but this is not a
	necessity at all.  Some theories which would bear out empirical
	facts,  suggest that any bad experience can create irrational
	associations such as "woman = particular-woman-who-hurt-me =
	this-woman = pain = etc."  According to one such theory,  such
	disturbances cannot be healed without special therapy.  I am
    	not sure as to the validity of the different mental health
    	sciences while such science is patently still in early infacny.

Simon.

    What's a woman hater?
    
    	Spanky, Buckwheat, and Alf-alfa. Or Moe, Larry, and Curly too
    	I think...
    
    							mike

    After just coming off a 4 year relationship where I found out that
    the girl I was planning to marry slept with 5 of my friends, I have
    to admit I hate women a little.  I wouldn't exactly call it hate
    but more of a fear of them.  To cover for the fear, I say I hate
    them.  This is only temporary though,  just as I think it is for
    many so called women haters.  It's just a way to help heal a wound
    or some other feeling.  It has nothing to do with my relationship
    with my mother.
                                  
    

>    After just coming off a 4 year relationship where I found out that
>    the girl I was planning to marry slept with 5 of my friends, 

<oof> sorry to hear about that...I'd have some not-pleasant feelings if I were 
in your shoes, too.

Meredith