Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    You have stated the questions in a way which makes it appropriate
    to this conference.  I think it will fly alright.
    
    Other than that, I haven't the foggiest idea what you are talking
    about.  I mean that I understand the questions, but I don't discuss
    racism with members of other races so I have no background with
    which to attempt an answer.  I wouldn't feel comfortable about
    discussing the issue with someone who is directly affected by the
    issue, whether its a man or a woman.  We would agree on most of
    the topics, so there wouldn't be much of a discussion.  There are
    two people with whom I would discuss such issues and they are men,
    but, again, there wouldn't be much to discuss.  They'd talk and I'd
    listen.  I only know 1 black woman and we aren't close enough to
    discuss the weather.
    
    Sorry, not much help here.
    Spence

    
    I must say that I am glad to see another attempt.  I also think
    you will fare better this time.
    
    Although I am a Black man (the downtrodden) I haven't experienced
    blatant racism to as great a degree as some with whom I have spoken.
    Racism which prevents advancement, as far as I've seen, is targeted
    at the more outspoken people (as opposed to one gender over another).
    The idea that women might be less subject to such racism could be
    largely due to the fact that there are more agressive males than
    females of any race (hey, it's true). 
    
                             Bubba
    

    I have noticed -- and I sincerely don't mean this to be derogatory --
    that when there is a black man working in my area, and I react with
    friendly interest, as I might to any other congenial new person in the
    group, he is much more likely than a white man to assume that my
    interest is merely sexual -- and more likely than not to be annoyed or
    downright angry that I see him only as a stereotyped stud. 
    
    This has happened more than once. Unfortunately I was never close
    enough to any of these men to feel comfortable asking them whether I
    was doing something to make them feel this way, or if that many white
    women expect them to play the superstud. When it happens more than
    once, I assume that I must be contributing to the reaction...but
    for the life of me I don't see how.

    I'm beginning to think there's more racism simmering under the surface
    than any of us would like to admit.  There was a rash of burglaries
    in a neighborhood near mine recently, and everybody assumed the
    two young black male construction workers who live in the apartment
    on the corner were the ones who did it. Of course everybody "knows"
    they're dealing drugs because how else could they afford a car as
    nice as that red Mazda ZX one of them drives????  
    
    Of course they arrested three white high school students, fifth
    generation Nashuans, who *were* dealing drugs, but the woman who
    told me this story seemed to think it was only a matter of time
    before they caught the two black men.
        
    Interestingly enough, this woman seems to be honestly good friends
    with the somewhat older, quiet, established black family who lives
    in the same neighborhood. 

    Are the only reactions most black men get from white women fear
    or a sexual come-on?
    
    --bonnie

    If I were a black male I'd be scared of the "white girl
    flirts with me- yells *rape* if she's caught at it"
    syndrome. I'm a white male in a minority dominated plant.
    The majority of available women in this plant are black
    or hispanic. I keep my hands in my pockets and stare at
    the ceilings a lot :-) 
    I recently picked up a copy of "Essence", a black oriented
    magazine, and found an article on the increase of relationships
    between white men & black women. The article explores the
    apprehensions and stereotypes at great length. Worth a read.

    That never even occured to me!  But it certainly sounds likely.
    
    I've seen the magazine you refer to -- thanks for the pointer to
    the article.
    
    --bonnie

    As a white woman, in the past, I've had some interesting discussions
    about racism with black male co-workers/friends.  It's been 3 or
    4 years now since I worked with these people, but at the time I
    felt very comfortable asking them all kinds of questions and got
    some, to me, very interesting responses.  One person in particular
    that I worked with and was friends with for awhile was very open
    about discussing his attitudes towards racism.  
    
    Lorna
    

    This raises the question of is there a reason why I can talk with
    black women about racism openly and Lorna can talk to black men.
     Is it easier to talk about sensitive issues like this with the
    opposite sex?
    
    And to follow up on the earlier point, Lorna did you find the black
    males trying to act as "superstuds" when you showed friendship?

    re: .7 
    
    I think I was unclear on my original statement. The black men I worked
    with didn't ACT as superstuds. They seemed to think that I EXPECTED
    them to act as superstuds.
    
    Is that clearer?
    
    (Notes is such a tricky medium....)
    
    --bonnie 
    

    It is my feeling that this discussion can be the most productive
    if we discuss how we feel and not try to project how someone else
    might be feeling.
    
    Racism is still a problem because we will not admit how we feel,
    what are fears are.
    
    In 1963 I welcomed into my home a youngster from Harlem for a two
    week vacation.  This turned out to be a 10 year relationship that
    covered a lot of feeling, emotion and learning for both of us.
    
    I remember worrying about giving her a bath.  I don't know what
    I was worried about...I guess I thought maybe their skin was different
    and needed different care.  
    
    When I interviewed a black man for a position I had, I worried about
    my manager who was blatantly racist and whether I was doing him
    a favor by hiring him.  As an aside he has become her token.
                                                        
    I don't remember the context of the original note but I again want
    to state my opinion...Racism is in the heart and souls of
    people...making observations about others behavior just drives it
    deeper and deeper.  There has to be an answer...'the sun doesn't
    shine any differently on any one of us'.
    

    
         Wow!  Nasty little turn in the topic, Superstud I mean.  It
    does happen, even to nice fellows like myself (once).  I don't
    personally presume such things, but I am wary of intents with whichever
    race of woman I am interacting with.  If someone seems to be teasing
    me, I tease right back.  That, too, can backfire.  I recently lost
    a (white female) friend because she thought my teasing response
    was sincere.  
    
         As for being able to communicate, I give it my very best. 
    Unless someone bare-faced attacks me, I can accept the painful truth
    about myself or my race and (hopefully) respond logically.  I will
    admit to a low tolerance for the type who tries to get friendly
    with me and then feels free to constantly tell racial jokes (the
    real bad ones, not the funny ones).  All I can promise is that I
    give everyone a chance and a little respect, and expect only the
    same in return.  I currently communicate on unNOTEable things by
    personal mail with a person at a non-US DEC facility who has never
    been exposed to Blacks, and we share some hard truths about the
    human race as a whole.
    
                              Bubba
    

    
    	I recently had an experience that I would like to share.
    One of my best friends who is black (I'm white) invited me to
    his wedding in Florida. Well needless to say I siezed the oppurtunity
    to make it into a vacation. One night we decided to go clubbing
    in Tampa, 4 black men and moi. I had no idea what was in store for
    me. We went to this disco in the mainly black section of Tampa.
    Boy was my heart beating a mile a minute when we drove up to the
    place. Now I am a big man 6'3" 260 and needless to say I wasn't
    scared but I had this fear that some one in the bar would say 
    something to me and I would have to deal with it.
    	Well all that happened was that I got quite a few stange looks,
    and possibly some snickering but that's it!! I just kind of stood
    around all night and drank, heavily I might add, but not one person
    in that place gave me a hard time. I was the *only* white man in
    the bar! 
    	I guess I can say I got a taste of what it is like for my 
    black friends to go out with me to a club around Nashua where 
    I am from. I never knew that they felt like that, and I can 
    honestly say it's not a comfortable feeling.
    
    
    
    Steve

    Re .7, no I can't make any generalizations about "superstuds" of
    any race.
    
    In regard to the person who was in the all black club and felt nervous,
    I think that's natural only because you never really know what to
    expect from other people.  A few years ago before Prince did "Purple
    Rain" and got famous with everybody I went to a concert of his in
    Providence, R.I.  There were hardly any white people there.  I thought
    nothing of it until I had to go to the ladies room and then realized
    that I was in this huge rest room with about 20 black women and
    I was the only white woman in there.  Well, for one second I found
    myself thinking - hmmmm - and then I decided to just pretend I hadn't
    noticed I was a different color and just forgot about it and acted
    "normal".  Nothing happened at all.
    
    That was the tact I took when I joined the army 19 years ago.  I
    had grown up in a small Massachusetts town where everybody was white
    and either Catholic or Protestant.  When I got into the army there
    were 18 year old women there from all races and religions - black,
    Jewish, Chinese, Mexican, American Indian.  I was fascinated at
    the variety.  I had been brought up by my parents to treat all people
    as individuals regardless of race, religion, etc.  I had been brought
    up to believe that racism is a sin.  But, this was the first time
    I was ever actually tested.  I decided to just pretend I hadn't
    noticed any difference between anybody and it seemed to work.  I
    never got into any trouble with anybody because of race or religion.
     My experiences confirmed what I had been raised to believe that
    there are nice people from all backgrounds and there are jerks from
    all backgrounds.  Each person has to be dealt with as an individual
    not as a black person, jewish person, Chinese person, or white
    anglo-saxon protestant.  It's so simple.  I'll never understand
    the problem some people have with it.

    Lorna
    

    My best friend is a  black woman, I am a white woman.
    Because we hang out alot, I have been to many a function where I
    was the only white person.  Inevitably, converstions will turn to
    "do you feel uncomfortable"?  "are you trying to pick up one of
    these guys?"  When I ask in return, "do you feel uncomfortable because
    I am here?, "would you pick up on a white man if he were here??"
    My friend said she would never date a white man, she says the 
    cultures are too different, and she would feel uncomfortable being 
    seen with him, the women at the party with us agreed.  When I said 
    I felt the same about dating a black man, they asked if I was 
    prejuduiced?  I asked them if they were.
    stalemate.    

    vivian

    I wanted to ask this question generically, trying to avoid giving
    offense, that doesn't seem to be working. Maybe if I explain the
    actual incident it would help clarify things. (As I writer I am
    embarrassed that I am having so much trouble making myself clear here.
    Quite an experience in patience, technique, and humility.) 
    
    When I worked at IBM one summer, all the summer hires and temps hung
    out together. One night after we'd been working in the same area for
    quite some time, four of us left work at the same time. Somebody
    suggested that we go out for a beer after work.  Scott, the only black
    man in the group, refused, saying "I don't need three white women on my
    arm to make me feel like a man."  (I don't think it had occured to us
    that we were all women until he mentioned it.)  He was not joking. He
    was obviously angry. He did not give us a chance to ask him why he felt
    that way. He remained cordial at work but after that was very careful
    to keep some distance between himself and all of us, so that any
    question even bordering on the personal was impossible. 
    
    If I had been alone when I asked him to join me for a beer, I would not
    have been surprised if he interpreted my interest sexually. Men of all
    races have done that. But I've never had a white man interpret an
    invitation from three female co-workers as in a sexual way. 
    
    What I wanted to know was whether this is a common problem in relations
    between black men and white women, a problem I could have avoided had I
    been more sensitive to how someone who has been discriminated against
    by a society represented by people of my color was going to react to
    something that I intended innocently.  I've never been discriminated
    against in this way; I don't know how it feels; I grew up in an almost
    totally white state and never even had anyone to ask.  If this makes me
    a racist, please believe that it's from ignorance, not malice. 
    
    I used to think that just ignoring everyone's color and saying we
    were all the same was the way to solve all the country's social
    problems.  But I doubt very much that my experience growing up as
    a somewhat poor but otherwise quite ordinary westerner with access
    to schools and jobs is anything like the experience of someone who
    grew up having to fight against people who look like me for every
    bit of education and job advancement they got. 

        
    --bonnie 

    Re .14, my first guess would be that that particular black man you
    worked with at IBM that summer may have had some sort of "bad
    experience" in his past involving white women.  Or, maybe he had
    been raised to stay away from white women as a means to keep out
    of trouble.  Who knows?  It was his individual hangup and doesn't
    mean that all black men are incapable of accepting platonic friendship
    from white women.
    
    Speaking of people being different, it seems to me that people are
    just reluctant for whatever reason to describe something about their
    particular background that may be different from the person who
    is asking.  I remember a few years ago at DEC, my boss at the time
    was out on the day the turkeys were given out.  I decided to pick
    his up for him.  When I gave him the turkey the next day he said,
    "Oh no.  This is wrong.  I was supposed to have a kosher turkey."
     I had honestly never in my life heard of a kosher turkey before.
     I said, "What's a kosher turkey?"  He looked at me as though I
    were the rudest person in the world, turned and stomped off without
    a word.  I don't see why he couldn't have just explained it to me.
    
    Lorna
    

    Re: .14
    
         Sounds like an individual problem, to me, rather than a racial
    problem.  I go out with white women quite often in groups and as
    a couple (usually as friends), and feel no insecurity whatsoever.
    I am as comfortable as I am with black women.  I don't know where
    you were (did I miss it?), but I might be less comfortable if I
    lived in Boston.
    
                               Bubba
    

    re: .15 -- 
    
    I forgot to say. This was Binghamton/Endicott NY, an area
    intellectually similar to Nashua but with a larger number of members
    of various minority races.  We were all students at the university,
    which was sort of like a quarantine area in the otherwise very
    blue-collar area. I believe Scott was from Albany. The other two
    women were from the NYC area. 
    
    re: .14 -- 
    
    boy, does that ring some bells. I'm Lutheran/long-lapsed Catholic,
    but my husband and his family are Jewish, though not particularly
    religious. My father-in-law is very patient about explaining aspects
    of their religion to me, but he always acts as though I should have
    already learned this by osmosis or something.
    
    --bonnie
    

    that should be .16, and then .15. 
    
    I got my index off by one . . .
    
    --bonnie, blushing

    Okay, I'll jump in with both feet.  Be aware that I feel uncomfortable
    doing so.
    
    When I meet a black man, I am apprehensive because I don't know
    what to expect from him.  Am I going to say the wrong thing and
    be accused of being prejudiced?  In the military, it is very easy
    to be accused and punished for seeming to be prejudiced over something
    that I wouldn't give a second thought.  I could cite some examples
    of trivial bullsnot that *did* happen and the blacks *always* won
    out.  Maybe its just that these were the only incidents that were
    newsworthy.  But, because of that, I have built up a defense system
    that alerts me to the possibility of being 'strung up' for saying
    the wrong thing and I'm notorious for saying the wrong thing.  Once
    I get to know him, then we can be friends.  
           
    As for women, there is the black-o-phobia that I have combined with
    the woman-o-phobia that I have.  I will hardly talk to a black woman
    at all.
    
    Spence
    
    <continued>
    I wrote this out to double check it later.  Its now later and I
    have time to cite the examples.
    
    A white personnel man was looking over a black man's records.  There
    was something in the records that caused the white man to say "Oh,
    boy!".  The black man took this as being called 'boy' and pressed
    charges.  The white man received an Article 15 for it.
    
    A black man was talking on the phone and a white man was blankly
    looking his direction.  The black man accused the white man of
    eavesdropping on his conversation and pressed charges of
    discrimination.  The white man got an Article 15.
    
    A white man failed to hold a door open for a black man and was accused
    of discrimination.  Article 15 for the white man.
    
    They served chitterlings in the chow hall and a white man remarked
    that he didn't like them.  A black man overheard, pressed charges,
    Article 15.
    
    The white men always lost.  They were so concerned about protecting
    the blacks that the whites got walked on.  This left me with very 
    bad feelings.  But, then, the military left me with many many bad
    feelings.  I don't dislike blacks because of it, but I am very
    apprehensive when I meet one.
    
    Spence
    

    In 1969 ,while a college student in California, I had the 
    opportunity to sharpen my Motorcycle high speed riding skills
    by fleeing from a group of extremely irate white hells angels
    who saw me buying gas in their turf,fortunately I had a Norton
    interceptor vs their Harley Davidson sh*twheels.
    I believe that there were several shots fired in my direction.
    and that *behavior* scared me .
    Re:-1 do Black people scare you ?...or do people who fail to behave
    in the expected manner make you apprehensive?
    
    I'm Black ,grew up in Kingston,Jamaica and only a fool ,Black or
    White would go to certain parts of that town after dark.
    Furthermore there are parts of my home town where I wouldn't go
    in *daylight*,but I've seen American tourists go into those areas
    and come out alive and bearing gifts ,to boot.                              
    
    I can't justify the attitude that you speak of in the army ,Spence
    I think that too many people here in the US are walking on glass
    as far as the whole issue is concerned. I do not feel uncomfortable
    with people of any race ,but it doesn't take long to know who or
    what I'm dealing with then I take it from there.
    
    (I watch my back when in the company of evangelists though) %-)
    
     
    ...Robin
    

    re 96.19
    
    Come on now!! Just because some black person say FOUL the military
    court Article 15 some white person. Give the military justices some
    semibalance of intelligence. The senarios <-spelling are two
    simplified.  More details please!!!!
    
    

re: .19

When I went to college back in the '60s, I ran into some situations
similar to what you describe, where the "authorities" seemed to
regard any charge of discrimination against a white person as being
an open-and-shut "guilty" verdict no matter what the accused said.

But not since then, or in the working world.  It may have been the
peculiar circumstances of the times.  At least I hope so.

I also learned (I hope!!) back then to be VERY careful about making
any comments that might come across as insensitive or racist.  (I
should say that I learned this by making mistakes that I got blasted
out for.)  If another person has already suffered a lot of undeserved
pain as a result of being born into a minority group, I don't want to
add to it.

That may be what makes a white person get very tentative around a new
black acquaintance.  You know that black people in this country have
suffered a lot of oppression socially and (usually) a lot of psychological
and/or physical pain personally.  So until you can gauge HOW MUCH pain
this particular new acquaintance may have suffered and, as a result, how
angry/unhappy/defensive etc. she or he may be in reaction to it, you
tend to lie low and not be too "forward".

    
    
    	It's times like this that I'm glad I was raised in Dorchester,
    Ma. by parents who don't really know color. I was taught that there
    is good and bad in all colors and creeds and not to judge by color
    and creed alone.
    
    	Thanks Mom and Dad.
    
    							mike

    re96.19
    
    So if said in the military that I didn't like chitterlings I could
    get an article 15. That is taking disipline to the extreme. So I
    guess in the military you are forced to eat what they serve you
    without question. Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! :-) 
    
    I'm sensitive to this issue being discussed but FORCED CHITTERLING
    EATING is the one of the strangest (* smile *) things I've heard coming out
    of the military. I doubt the military will force you to eat what
    they serve. What if it is against your religion to eat certain
    type of foods. Explain more details require???????   
    

    The military (Air Force was my selection) tends to go overboard
    on issues like this, being the first and hardest line against racial
    discrimination.  They went so far overboard that any case brought
    up by a black against a white was no contest, the white lost.  This
    all took place from ~1974 to ~1980.  During that time, I have no
    idea what took place in the civilian world.  3 of those years, I
    was in Germany.  The blacks eventually got the idea that if they
    wanted to hurt a white, all they had to do was drum up some charge
    of discrimination and the white would swing.  This led to the practice
    of whites avoiding blacks at all costs.  We wouldn't even *look*
    at them, let alone *talk* to them for fear that we would seem to
    be discrimating against them.  This fear carries over now, its not
    as bad any more but it lingers.  I don't fear blacks, I fear the
    situation that may or may not still be valid.  I'm talking about the
    type of environment in DEC, CXO.  If I met a black in downtown Harlem,
    I'd soil my britches.        
    
    If you weren't in the military during
    that time, then you can't argue that it didn't happen.  Article
    15's were handed out left and right for cases of discrimination
    and they were always given to whites.  And, again, I state that
    the ones that were overruled wouldn't have been as newsworthy, and
    I wouldn't have heard about them.  This is the same military that
    court martialed a friend of mine because he didn't make his bed
    3 times.  He was judged unfit for military life because of a lack
    of discipline.  This is the same military that refused to allow my
    wife to be a member of the NCO club because she was a woman, although
    she outranked me AND she was stationed at that base while I was
    stationed elsewhere.  And this is the same military that twice
    overlooked the fact that a co-worker got caught smuggling drugs
    from France to Germany.  The only reason they finally decided to
    court martial him was that the French government refused to let
    him go without an agreement that he would be sent back to the States
    and out of the French government's hair.
                                            
    <back on track>
    Think of it this way, a child growing up is bitten by a dog.  That
    child may carry a fear of dogs thoughout his/her life because of
    a single incident, even though they may have pet dogs of their own.
    
    With the reports of incidents of people being bitten by Pit Bulls,
    I have a fear (apprehension) of Pit Bulls.  It only happened to
    other people and I have only heard about it, but I am apprehensive
    of them because it could be me next.  I will be apprehensive of
    any Pit Bull until it is proven that this particular dog wants to
    be friendly.
    
    Now that I have stated my feelings, I understand better why a black
    would be apprehensive of me.  If I had heard about a lot of people
    being killed/tortured by the Ku Klux Klan for looking at a white
    girl, I would certainly be apprehensive of looking at white girls.
    I only faced the problem for a few years, not a lifetime.  When
    I went to Florida (Pensacola) I remember going into a sea food market
    in which there were 5 black kids about 8-10 years old.  They were
    playing around on the tables and just having a gay old time.  There
    wasn't anyone else there except for the (white) owner behind the
    counter and he was oblivious to them.  As soon as my wife and I
    walked in the door, the kids all stopped playing and huddled together
    in the farthest corner of the room and stared at us.  Now, there
    are several possibilities why they did that.  Maybe they were taught
    that when customers come in, they were to quit playing.  Maybe we
    looked like tourists and they were curious.  Maybe because we were
    white and they were afraid of being noticed.  It surprised me because,
    in Colorado, they wouldn't have quit playing at all and wouldn't
    even have noticed that we had walked in.
 
    Details of .19:
>    A white man failed to hold a door open for a black man and was accused
>    of discrimination.  Article 15 for the white man.
    
    The black man claimed that, if he had been white, the white man
    would have held the door for him and since he hadn't held the door,
    then he must have been disriminating against the black man.

>    They served chitterlings in the chow hall and a white man remarked
>    that he didn't like them.  A black man overheard, pressed charges,
>    Article 15.
    
    Nowhere does this claim that anyone was forced to eat them.  I tried
    them just because I was curious what they tasted like and I didn't 
    like them either.  In the above case, the black man assumed that
    the white man didn't like them because they are 'black food' and
    construed this as prejudice.  BTW, they were served, along with
    black-eyed peas, cornbread, and watermelon, during black appreciation
    week.  Of course, we did have an optional menu item, calves liver.
    I guess you can decided for yourself if this is forcing someone
    to try it, personally, I like calves liver.  If you didn't like
    anything on the menu, there is always McDonalds and Pizza Hut outside
    of the west gate of Biloxi, Mississippi, but you have to pay for
    it yourself, they didn't honor the base's meal card.
    
    For a little background of my life, I was born in Canon City, CO,
    lived in Fort Garland, CO, moved to Walsenburg, CO when I was 5 
    and lived there for 10 years, lived one year in Colorado Springs,
    graduated in Blanca, CO and went to college in Alamosa, CO.  Before
    I was 10, I didn't realize that there was much difference.  We had
    1 family of blacks in the whole town of Walsenburg.  When I was
    15, I made a friend of a black man who was interred at the boys
    ranch (reformatory) outside of Walsenburg.  I was in the church
    group that went out there and tried to get into their heads and
    straighten them out.  This man (he was 17, but I can't bring myself
    to call him a boy) and I became buddies.  After he served his time,
    he went home to C. Springs.  During the year that I lived in C.
    Springs, I happened upon him one evening downtown.  I called him
    by name and he got all upset, which confused me.  He came over to
    me in a gruff manner, hollering things at me like I was some kind
    of pond scum, but when he got close to me (I was backing up by then)
    in a low voice, he said that he was sorry but that in the present
    situation (with 5 other black friends) he would no longer be able
    to be associated with me because his friends wouldn't understand
    his being friendly with a white boy.  Then we parted and I never
    saw him again.
    
    I was aware of the black neighborhoods and even experienced a race
    riot at my school that year (68-69, Billy Mitchell High).  At that
    school, the blacks were belligerent and looked for fights.  Then,
    we moved to Blanca (no blacks) and then to Alamosa (no blacks).
    When I joined the Air Force, I was suddenly put into a situation
    where blacks and whites worked together, ate together, slept together
    (separate beds, of course) and the problems that arose because of
    a racial society that I had never seen except for one year in the
    *big city*.  I didn't understand when I looked a black in the eye
    and he accused me of being prejudiced and I didn't even know what
    it meant.  I was curious of them because they looked different.
    I had heard of the KKK and what went on, in fact, my ex-brother-in-law
    was a member in Alabama, along with the rest of his family.  Most
    of the racial problems I had seen were between cowboys and Mexicans,
    cowboys and hippies (is that a race?), cowboys and everybody else.
    When a black called me a 'honky', it didn't mean anything to me.
    That's like me calling someone from Boston a 'gringo', it wouldn't
    mean anything to them, yet to me, its offensive.
    
    Unfortunately, I do remember a time when a man from Walsenburg told 
    me not to put a penny in my mouth because a n****r might have touched 
    it.  I was about 10 years old and the way that he said it made me
    wonder if there was something about a n****r's hands that I should
    know about.
    
    So, anyway, because of the experiences in the Air Farce, I am now
    apprehensive of blacks, not so much the man himself as the fear
    of being accused of prejudiced.  Possibly its just a fear of something
    that I still don't understand.  This fear is prevalent in my feelings
    towards women, I don't understand them.  I don't understand women
    and I don't understand blacks, so I definitely don't understand
    black women.  At least with a man, I am half way there.
    
    There are many black men who I admire very much, so I would say
    that I don't strictly dislike black men, there is just a thin wall
    that makes me stand back for a minute until I know if this man is
    harboring any bad feelings towards me.  Like when meeting a strange
    dog, I will put out one hand and let the dog determine whether *he*
    wants to be friends or not.  Unless the dog looks vicious from the
    start, I will always offer a hand.  And, unless the black man looks
    like he is waiting for a fight, I will offer him a hand (a friendly
    'hi') and then wait to see the reaction.
    
    Spence              

    re .23
    
    My parents behave very non-prejudicial and always taught me that
    prejudice was bad/evil.  I grew up in a predominantly white town
    (3 blacks in a highschool of 1500 students).  I attended an integrated
    Quaker meeting where one of my best friends was black.  I grew up
    thinking I was not prejudiced.  However, one of my eye opening
    experiences at DEC was attending a session of Multi-Cultural awareness
    training.  I learned that , much to my horror, I was prejudiced.
    And that the most dangerous thing I could do is deny it.  I realized
    that I do tend to get more nervous when i pass a black man on the
    street at night than a white man. I feel uneasy in a room full of
    blacks than a room full of whites.  I have also been told by blacks
    I have talked to that the whites they fear the most are those with
    "no prejudice" because they can't trust them.  They find it easier
    to know how to deal with whites who are openly prejudiced (avoid
    them or work around them) or whites who are consiously trying to
    deal with them as individuals in spite of their prejudices (become
    friends with them).  Now I don't know if this holds for all blacks
    or just the few that I have discussed it with.
    
    Now with my background where did the prejudice come from?  Well
    I have given it alot of thought and their are many sources where
    you pick it up.  Other kids in school telling racial jokes, hearing
    them on the radio, news accounts that told of "A black man ..."
    in reporting a crime (they never seem to start of "A white man ..."
    unless the white man did it to a black man).  When I went to college
    there were a few instances where the Accociation for Black Consiousness
    at the school seemed to be pushing for seperation and distinction
    rather than equal opportunity which came accross to me as very
    anti-white rather than pro-black.  Who knows what other influences
    there were.  I am sure, however, that no child grows up in america
    without becoming, to a greater or lesser degree, prejudiced.  The
    key in my mind is acknowledging the thoughts and feelings so that
    you can overcome them and thereby reduce the impact of the prejudice
    on behavior.
    
    One of the greatest perpetuators of racism as far as I am concerned
    is racial jokes (pollocks (sp) are a race) and I now try not to
    repeat racial jokes of any kind.  

 
    re 96.25
       Well I haven't been in the military but I did spend alot of time
    going to high school, undergraduate, and graduate. If they
    are handing out article 15's left and right like you said then I guess
    I was overrating the intelligence levels of the military justices.
    Personally I have interacted with many blacks during my years of
    education and work and I have developed friendships with many of them. 
    I will not list all of my good experiences hear in that they are too 
    numerous. Blacks are people also and I treat them as such, literally.
    Hey, don't get bent all out of shape. You have your opinion and
    I have mine.

    
    Re: .25
    
         Spence, I have to respect your response to your experiences,
    simply because they are YOUR experiences.  BUT, did you ever stop
    to think that your "military experience based racial opinion" makes
    you far more dangerous to black people than they (we) are to you?
    
         As a case in point, imagine a black person coming to you, as
    a hiring manager (are you one?).  Your comments indicate that he
    would have less than "a snowball's chance", and even if he did get
    the job, he could never become a part of your team.  Frightening!!
    
         My experience comes from another employment segment.  In the
    electronic industry (SC chip, mainly), a charge of discrimination
    gets the exact opposite reaction to the one you got.  The person
    making the charge is instantly branded a trouble-maker, and must
    have more than overwhelming evidence just to keep his/her job. 
    Having heard the horror stories, I usually advise victims to either
    mass their proof, or keep very quiet.  I don't avoid white people
    as a result.
    
                                 Bubba
    

    Bubba, thanks for the reply, I was wondering if I bludgeoned the
    topic to death.  Apparently, I came across as being more against
    blacks than I meant to.  My experiences in .25 happened a long time
    ago.  During the time since I've been free (at DEC) I've noticed
    that the situation isn't as bad on the outside.  I've also noticed
    that *everything* is different on the outside.  Its hard to learn
    how to be a civilian after all of your adult life has been as a
    GI, especially in Engineering, because I was taught that everything
    that I did was 'by the book'.  But that's a different subject. 
    The blacks that I encounter in DEC are different from the blacks
    that I encountered in the Air Force.  It seems that *these* blacks
    don't have enormous chips on their shoulders.  The *people* in DEC
    got here *with* an education.  The people in the Air Force got there
    *for* an education.
    
    In your example about a hiring manager (which I'm not), I think
    that I would look at qualifications first.  Then, if the person
    seems to have a chip on his shoulder, seems to think that he can
    get this job *because* he's black, or just generally seems like
    he has some special advantage because he's black, then it would
    weigh against him.  This would weigh against anyone.  However, if
    the man seemed sincere, intelligent, no chips, then I would look
    in his favor.  I admit, though, that I would be inclined to *look*
    for a chip, which I wouldn't do with a white man.
    
    In the Air Force, I avoided blacks like the plague.  Now, I want
    to be friends, but I'm *slightly* apprehensive of the 'chip'.  Once
    I realize that there is no chip, or he doesn't show it, then all
    is well and we can be friends.  I no longer feel that I will be
    hung for some diddly little problem because the incentive isn't
    there for someone to press something.  In the AF, I didn't get a
    trial, I think that I would get a fair chance now.  In fact, this
    discussion itself would have been grounds for action in the AF.
    I would never have admitted to my feelings in that society.  But,
    those apprehensions still exist, even if they are greatly reduced.
    
    Today, I think that I try to get close to blacks to prove to myself
    that there is nothing to fear.  Possibly its just a way to say "Hey,
    look at me, I'm not prejudiced".  Maybe I feel guilty about my old
    feelings and I'm trying to push them out.  A case in point:  this
    morning on the way to work, I saw a black man hitch-hiking in town.
    If I had been in the right lane, I would have stopped.  Not because
    he looked tired or friendly or just needed a ride, but because he
    was black.  If he had been white, I wouldn't have picked him up
    unless he was carrying a gas can or it was raining.  I know its
    wrong to do it just because he was black, but I felt like "here's
    a chance to show him that we whites aren't all scum".  Maybe I would
    have conveyed the opposite.  What do you think?  BTW, I do the same
    thing when I pull a car out of a snowbank.  "Here's a chance to
    show a car owner that we 4X4 drivers aren't all scum".
    
    If a black man seems like a 'good guy', then I will go out of my
    way to be friends.
    
    If a black man seems to have the slightest chip on his shoulder,
    I avoid him.
    
    A black woman may have 2 chips on her shoulder.  Gee, maybe this
    is how I feel about women, too.  Something else to ponder now. 
    
    I hope that I've made sense here.  In summary, I have a *slight*
    apprehension when meeting blacks, but if all goes well, I forget
    that he is black and he is just another friend.
    
    Spence

    
         I don't think any comments on my feelings about 'proving yourself'
    would be constructive.  Let me just say that eventually, you will
    resent HAVING to prove yourself.
    
         LOGIC, my man, when all else seems skewed, logic will straighten
    things out.  
    
         You are setting yourself up for a great loss with the black
    women.  They have a certain insight that no other race or gender
    posesses.  Give them a chance, I learned more from black women than
    I have from any college textbook.  They have what it takes, I know
    because I'm in love with one.
    
                              Bubba
    

    I quess we're all a little aprehensive when we're placed in new
    situations or have to deal with new people.  It's not easy for blacks
    to go into the lion's den so to speak and fit into white environments.
    There's a little apprehension on both sides, one man's apprehension
    is another man's chip on the shoulder.  I try not to prejudge people,
    because i hate it when it's done to me. When i'am working on a project
    with people i haven't worked with before, i can feel that sense
    of doubt if i know what i'am doing. They don't know anything about
    my education, my background, or anything about what kind of person
    i am, they just know i'am black, which causes doubts.  When i
    display that i'am a professional, i'am good, i know what i'am doing,
    i can sense this surprize, this relief, almost amazement.
    It's the same when you go into a department store and the store
    detective follows you around because you're black, i'am suppose
    to be a thief, i could be the head of the FBI for all they know.
    
    We're the first generation of blacks to have these opportunities
    that carry us into areas to live and work in places blacks hadn't
    before and there's apprehenion on both sides. Just don't prejudge
    me.  I treat people like my father used to say 'Respect everyone,
    fear no one'
    
    

    re .31
    Well put.  I can see myself in that reply.  I would imagine that
    for me to go into a black bar would be the same as a black going
    into a white bar.  It would be uncomfortable.  Personally, I have
    never seen a 'black bar' or a 'gay bar' or a 'white bar'.  What
    I *can* relate to is going into a Mexican bar.  When I am the only
    'gringo' in a room full of Mexicans (aka Chicanos) I feel very
    uncomfortable.
    
    I thought about this issue since my last reply and I'm beginning
    to wonder if my problem lies with not being exposed to blacks. 
    I can't think of many blacks with whom I work and I don't go out
    sociably.  The lack of exposure creates a lack of understanding
    and this leads to apprehension.  The blacks that I *do* know are
    great guys.
          
    I try not to prejudge but I'm sensitive to hostility.
    
    Spence

    You're right Spence, i think when people interact with each other
    after a while, they see that most folks are the same.  Most people
    are trying to make a living, provide for there kids, and have a
    little peace of mind.  We get so many images of people from TV,
    the media, or hear say, that we all have misconceptions about each
    other.  When i moved to Boston to work for DEC it was 1976, just
    as Boston was going through the school desegration policy, i came
    up defensive, i came up tough, looking to back somebody up - because
    i didn't know what to expect, i guess they didn't know what to expect
    from me either.  What i learned is that there are good guys and
    bad guys, and race don't have much to do with it.

    I was raised in a very, very white town.  (Middletown, N.Y. - anyone
    every hear of it?)
    
    All I want to say is that there was never any doubt in my mind that
    prejudice did exist in this world, but I had never experienced it.
    Most of my boyfriends in school were white (I am a black female).
    I never experienced any real major differences in our "cultures"
    that would have disqualified a white guy as my choice for a date.
    
    Now living in the Twin Cities where I constantly hear black people
    talking about "prejudice white people", I still have not experienced
    a major act of prejudice against me.  And even if I did, I probably
    would not even realize that it is prejudice but just ignore it as
    one persons ignorance.
    
    I can go into an all white bar/neighborhood and still feel just
    as comfortable as if I were in an all black bar (however, I do get
    a lot of bad talk from black people who accuse me of being "a white
    girl with black skin) why? because I don't speak the way they do,
    nor do I act the way they do.
    
    What I'm trying to say is that I guess it is a matter of environment
    that you grow up in that pretty much sets the precedent of how you
    feel towards people not of your own race.
    
    Spence, I'm really sorry for those experiences that you had in the
    Air Force but now that you are no longer a part of that world, maybe
    in time you can join those of us who judge people (women) for who
    they are and not what they are.
    
    CC
     

	I've started a topic on racism in general in
	QUARK::HUMAN_RELATIONS. Hit KP7 to add it to your notebook.
	
	Mike

    I've been misunderstood enough already.  I don't need to go looking
    for more.  Is it any wonder that people don't want to discuss it?
    
    Spence

    
         I think that's what this topic was meant to clear up; 
    misunderstanding.  Are you trying to say that you can't see why
    people are deriving the meanings that they are from your comments?
    I really haven't seen an unreasonable conclusion.
    
                            Bubba
    

    The reply that really got my goat was this one.
                                                   
>    Spence, I'm really sorry for those experiences that you had in the
>    Air Force but now that you are no longer a part of that world, maybe
>    in time you can join those of us who judge people (women) for who
>    they are and not what they are.               
    
    I thought that I had pretty well explained that I don't prejudge people
    because of what they are.  I simply have a tendency to look a little
    closer.
    
    To prejudge a woman would be to say "I don't like her because all
    women are too sensitive to sexist things and I will be judged as
    sexist by her."
    
    What I say is "Some women are sensitive to sexist things and she
    may have a chip on her shoulder.  I'll observe her and see if I detect
    a chip."
    
    If a woman drops a book, I won't pass it up thinking that she will
    be offended, I will stop to pick it up and watch her actions.  If
    she looks like she is going to be offended, *then* I pass her by.
    
    This would also apply to blacks.  Substitute "woman" with "black"
    and "sexist" with "racist".  I don't judge blacks, I am sensitized
    to possible triggers.
    
    All in all, I feel like I'm digging a hole and its getting deeper.
    Maybe I'm not enlightened enough to explain clearly how I feel and
    I come across as a racial (sexual) bigot.  Its becoming easier to
    ignore the issue than to try to explain my feelings and take a chance
    of being misunderstood.  I wonder how many others feel this way
    and don't want to take the initial step.  I am known for spilling
    my guts on any issue, others are not so inclined.  If I lived in
    an area that had a lot of blacks, I may not be so inclined to talk
    about it.  Come to think of it, I work in an area that is predominantly
    male, too.
                                                    
    Maybe I don't know enough to know that my attitude *is* racist or
    sexist.  
    
    As a possible aside, Bubba, I've been wanting to meet you, since
    we both work in the same building.  If I were prejudiced against
    blacks and didn't want anything to do with them (you), would I want
    to do that?  I think not, especially since we can't seem to agree
    on much except for the mostaccioli at Bambino's.
    
    Spence

    Well Spence, I applaud you for being so open about your feelings
    and let me say that I share your apprehensions about how a black
    person is going to act when I first meet them.  I am not so concerned
    about the "chip", for that matter I don't know what I am concerned
    about, I just am more apprehensive.  I also suspect that black people
    are more apprehensive when meeting whites, in general.  It sounds
    to me like what you are fighting is the "racist" label, well lets
    face it, if we react differently to people, even if it is just mentally
    being more cautious and not outward actions, based solely on the
    fact that they happen to be of a different race, then we are racist.
    I think we need to admit that to get beyond it.  The only way I
    know to overcome it is to be aware of the feelings that at least
    for me are automatic and consciously try to assure our actions are
    not affected.
    
    for example, if you were a hiring manager, and a black person came
    in for an interview, you should probably acknowledge to yourself
    up front that you are subconsciously looking for the "chip" and
    consciously try to make sure that you do not let that affect your
    hiring decision.  Quite frankly after seeing and hearing some of
    the things that happen to blacks I am suprised more of them don't
    have chips.
    
    .34 brings up an interesting point, why do blacks resent blacks
    who act "white".  It seems contradictory that the blacks who insist
    on equal treatment also seem to insist on different behavior.  Why
    should a black person behave differently around whites than when
    only with blacks?  

    
    RE: .38
    
         Well Spence, I suppose you have become a victim of necessity,
    in a way.  The fact that you were willing to let your feelings be
    known puts you above the group that I classify as racists.  I reacted
    to you in the way I would react to anyone.  I, too, had problems
    with one of the replies you got, and I wrote to that person (in
    order to avoid being misunderstood).  Anyway, as I was saying, I
    used you as the only example available to try and provoke a hearty
    conversation and reveal some problems in the attitude I saw.  I
    had hoped that others with similar feelings would offer the same
    type of reply that you did, and thereby take some of the focus off
    of you.  I don't consider this a problem specifically with you,
    but with us all.  You were simply the only one (so far) to reveal
    feelings which fit the conversation.
    
                                Bubba
    
    
    
    
    PS: Rest assured, we shall meet.
    

    To Bubba and Spence, two honest men!
    

    
    re .40 in general
    
    When this note (#96) hit my screen, I felt tension rise in my whole
    body, the defensive mechanism that says "OH OH, this is where the
    s**t hits the proverbial fan."  As I read .40 I felt the tension 
    abate.  I don't feel that I've started as many fires as I imagined.
    (I have an active imagination).  Thanks, Bubba.
    
    re .39
    Thanks for the support.  I suppose we are all a little racist and
    sexist, even if just a little bit.
    
    Specne
    
    
    <continued>
    
    I just went back and reread everything from about .20 and its amazing
    the difference in context.  Reading it all in one fell swoop instead
    of having a 1 or 2 day lag between replies really makes a difference
    in understanding what was said.  I now realize that there was/is
    a lot of good stuff back there and I'd forgotten all of the
    contributions put forth here.  Thanks to all.  I also realize now
    that I wasn't nearly as misunderstood as I thought I was.  Other
    than the mention of 'being forced to eat chitterlings', this is
    the only other gross misunderstanding that I noticed:
                                                         
>    As a case in point, imagine a black person coming to you, as
>    a hiring manager (are you one?).  Your comments indicate that he
>    would have less than "a snowball's chance", and even if he did get
>    the job, he could never become a part of your team.  Frightening!!
    
    And it was cleared up.  In fact, in the new light of what was said,
    I may just go to HUMAN_RELATIONS and see what's cooking.  I no longer
    feel like I've been walked on and I feel better about contributing
    to the cause.
    
    You're never too old to learn!
    
    Spence
    

    
    I never considered myself as a racist (and still don't) except maybe in
    the context of some of the replies in this note.  Let me elaborate: 
    
    First a little history.  I was raised in a small NJ town which is a
    bedroom town for Philadelphia.  My father is one of the biggest racists
    and sexists I have EVER known. (More on that later)  My mother was from
    Arkansas and my Grandmother (who came to live with us when I was 8) is
    from the "old South". 
    
    Any time anything went wrong or goes wrong in the Philadelphia area, is
    the sole fault of "them Ni----s".  Any time anyone cuts my father off
    driving or does something stupid, it ALWAYS a woman (my father is one
    of the worst drivers I've seen too).  One time when watching the tele,
    my father made the comment "that a good looking n____r" (I'd spell it
    out but don't want to get a moderator mad at me :-) ). I asked him why
    he couldn't just say "good looking woman" instead. He had no idea what
    I was talking about. 
    
    My grandmother (now in her 90s) liked the "good old days when 'those'
    people knew their place".  I had never really experienced "old South"
    prejudice until I went to Little Rock, Arkansas on an support call. I
    had never seen black workers spoken down too like that before in my
    life (not that things were all that rosy in Philadelphia). In the
    Holiday Inn I was staying in, the blacks were always spoken to in very
    belittling terms.  I felt great empathy for them. 
    
    When I first started taking organ lessons (no jokes please) in
    Philadelphia,  I had to travel through and to a part of Philadelphia
    that was mostly, if not all black.  I had to take the Broad Street
    subway to the Allegheny Avenue station and transfer to a bus where more
    times than not, I was the only white in either place.  I was a little
    uneasy, but I think I got more of an understanding of what a black
    person must feel like in an all white situation. 
    
    I have several very good black friends.  One time I had a black couple
    over to a party I had and when I told my Grandmother she was simply
    aghast. How could I even THINK of having a black couple over with my
    white friends.  "What did the others think?"  I told her that my
    'other' friends found my black friends very enjoyable and vice versa
    and we all had a good time and that this was the 1980s and NOT the
    "old South".  She still cannot get over it. 
    
    What point are you trying to make? (I hear you cry).  I've forgotten
    I've rambled on so long. :-)  The point I think I am trying to make is
    that with all of the racial hate I grew up with, I think I have a very
    good attitude against minority groups.  It's hard to admit, but I'm
    more uneasy now around a group of black men (or other minorities - not
    to single out blacks) that I might used to have been, having been away
    from the "big city" for such a long time. I've lived away from the
    Philadelphia area for over 15 years now and am currently in Nashua. I
    went to Boston a few weeks ago for something other than a flight from
    Logan and I am ashamed to admit that I felt intimidated by groups of
    black men I encountered (on the "T" and street).  The key word in this
    paragraph is GROUP. Individuals were fine.  I doubt that I would have
    felt intimidated by a group of black woman. 
    
    Have the black men in this conference had any similar experiences?
    (well, actually black or white or whatever).

    In the work place, I have never had a problem working with a minority
    co-worker as long as the person at least TRIED to do his or her job
    (even if it was beyond their current capabilities). <-- That may sound
    like a derogatory statement, but wasn't meant in that fashion. I've
    worked with people who couldn't quite make it in their position, but
    tried like hell to make a go of it.  What I DO have a problem with is a
    person who thinks that because (s)he is a minority, they don't have to
    do any work. 
    
    I would be a fool to say I don't have prejudices, we all do of some
    sort or another, but does the above make me a racist?  In particular a
    sexist racist?  I hope not (and I think not), but you tell me. 
    
    -Bob 
    
    P.S. See, I even managed to get it back into the context of Racism
    towards men :-).

    Re:-1
    I think that your description of your own circumstances would
    help to prove the point that "Racism" is a learned group of
    traits,which are visible in "Racist" behavior.
    
    Now ,that brings me to the tough part ...I fear that the term
    has become useless,in that it has become a label which is 
    conveniently used in any situation where someone needs a crutch
    albeit ,of a certain type or where people may need to attack some
    group or person. (see several notes back re military experience.)
    
    Make no mistake ,there are racists ,even extreme racists in this
    society . I reserve the term for those people who would deprive
    me or other members of racial groups of life or *BASIC* human
    rights ,because of racial origin. I do not believe that we are 
    fair to people when we lightly accuse them of racism ,this is
    done far too often today.
    
    I think that the only true Racists are those full time members
    of the far right hate cults ,and people who are constantly dedicated
    to fostering racial ill will and/or oppression.
    However many of us (and I include myself) will ,from time to time 
    behave,or think in ways that are definitely based on some racist 
    attitudes ,which we all have some of ....include sexist here too.
    
    Re:-1 Are you a Racist,by my definition,no.    
    
    
    ...Robin
    

    
         A new conference, BLACKNOTES, has been started on OPHION::.
    It will contain topics of interest to Black DEC employees, but all
    are invited to participate.  If you wish to add the conference,
    press KP7.
    
                              Bubba
    

    Friday evening, I went up and met Bubba.  We had a nice talk about
    things, I.E. notes, racism, why I came across the way I did, mistaken
    impressions about each others appearances, etc.  What I want to
    point out here is the fact that when I met him, I didn't feel the
    apprehension/uneasiness that I described earlier.  In a way, it
    surprised me, particularly due to the fact that we have argued in
    the past about several issues, in particular racism.  On the other
    hand, I think we already knew what the other was thinking, so it
    was a continuation of past episodes.  It wasn't really a *new* meeting,
    it was just in person rather than by tube-o-gram.  Also, I wasn't
    as nervous meeting him as I was when I met a woman.  Now I'm curious
    why I would be more nervous when meeting a woman.  I could think
    of several possibilities, but the one that I think holds the most
    water is that I would want to impress a woman more than I would
    a man.  Its just in my nature to try and impress a woman, even though
    I'm happily married.  With Bubba, or any other man, I don't have
    to worry about whether he thinks I'm attractive.  (You didn't think
    I was attractive, did you, Bubba?)
    
    He pointed out to me that I brought out all of the negative attributes
    of military racial problems that affected me, but I failed to clarify
    that there is only a trace of that attitude left in me.  He read
    my replies from a black's point of view that I overlooked.
    
    In an attempt to twist this note back around to the original topic,
    I now feel that I would not have trouble discussing racial issues
    with a black man if I am familiar with him.  But, again, if the
    man appeared to be looking for a fight, I wouldn't talk to him at
    all.  I also would not discuss motorcycles with the Hell's Angels.
    And I wouldn't discuss electronics with an engineer who appears
    to think of technicians as worm sweat.
    
    Spence

    
         I think the meeting had value.  Not to downplay the value of
    NOTES, but understanding is easier when the conversants can see
    each other's eyes.
    
                              Bubba