Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    I have a cousin who is a lesbian. No big deal, she still is the
    funniest person I know alive today, besides being a nice person.
    
    It is supposed to matter ??
    
    - Bj

    It would depend... are they cute? :-)
    
    Seriously though, what kind of reaction *should* I have? My gut
    feeling is that my reaction would be something like "Eh? What
    difference does *that* make?". If I was being told by some one else
    that one of my relatives was gay (say, my brother, since I don't
    have any children). My reaction would depend on whether I thought
    they were trying to shock me, or get me to express disapproval.
    In that case, I'd be very annoyed (at the teller), and probably
    flame at them.
    
    In the specific case of a close family member telling me, I'd be
    curious as to how they discovered it, since right now they seem
    pretty straight (but you never know!). I'd try to be supportive
    if it looked like that was needed, but basically it wouldn't be
    an issue.
    
    I mean, to me it's analagous to someone telling me that they like
    shrimp. Kind of, "That's nice, I'll keep it in mind the next time
    we go somewhere. I'll keep my eyes open for some big juicy ones.
    :-)"
    
    	-- Charles
    
    P.S. I'd also help him pick out earrings... :-) [See previous note.]

    
    
    	I found out last summer that two of my cousins are gay. Both
    	are in the same family and one is male and the other female.
    	I was mildly surprised but that's about it.. It's not a big
    	deal to me. I don't love them any less. I just love them for
    	being my friends AND my cousins.
    
    	I WAS surprised to find out that one of them dated Elton John
    	at one time..
    
    						mike

    Cry for a week? Yeah, that sounds more like it. It's easy to be
    open-minded in theory or in the abstract. 
    
    I thought I was open-minded, but when I found out a good friend of
    mine, who happened to live next door to me in the dorm, was going
    downtown and picking up men old enough to be his father and letting
    them fondle him etc. for the price of a meal, I was shattered.
    Ultimately it wrecked the friendship. 
    
    I had known gay men and women before (one of my English professors was
    living with her girlfriend) and I thought I could accept it. In fact, I
    had suspected for quite some time that this friend was probably gay.
    But simply knowing a couple is living together, or having someone tell
    you he's gay when you never actually see the sexual side of his
    personality, is a lot different from running into a friend hurrying
    back to his room holding hands with a hatted and raincoated old man he
    had "never seen before and probably would never see again." (My
    friend's words.) 
    
    I would like to think I would feel just as bad if a female friend
    was prostituting herself for the price of a good meal, too, but
    I'm not sure that would be the truth. 
    
    --bonnie

    It would definitely bother me more if my daughter (or son if I had
    one) was promiscuous, regardless of sexual preference, than if she/he
    were gay.  I would hope that my children would reserve sex for the
    special people in their lives, regardless of sex, instead of having
    a lot of one night stands.
    
    I would hope that if my daughter decided to be a lesbian (which
    I doubt considering her growing interest in males), that she would
    tell me that she thought she was more attracted to other females
    than to males.  If I found out by chance, and she had tried to hide
    it, I would feel badly that she didn't realize I would be able to
    deal with the situation.
    
    If I had a son the only reason I would be upset if I found out he
    was gay is that I would be afraid he might die of aides, or be beaten
    up by sick, straight men.
    
    Lorna
    

    Good point about sick straight men!  
    
    Also a good point about the promiscuity being a major issue. I can
    (and have in the past) accept gay friends who have close, committed,
    loving relationships. The kind of cruising that my friend was doing
    is what I can't deal with.  I still love him dearly, though we parted
    in anger, and I keep asking, "Why is he degrading himself like that?"
    
    Why do gay men cruise?  Most of the books I've read assume that
    gayness and cruising are synonomous, but I know that's not true.
    
    --bonnie, still trying to come to grips with some very jumbled thoughts
    and emotions
    
    
    
    
        

    Of course gayness and cruising are not synonomous.  The type of
    personality that cruises is not limited to any particular sexual
    preference.  The character and values of the person (regardless
    of their sexual preferences) is not determined by who they are
    attracted to.  There are gay couples who live fairly traditional,
    conservative lives.  When my brother came out of the closet it was
    to facilitate the acceptance of his long-term SO by his family.
    How could we not accept someone who had made him so happy and
    contributed so much to his happiness and emotional stability? 
    Cry for a week?  Why?   

    Excuse me. I brought the subject up because I thought people might
    help me come to grips with the problem instead of dumping on me.
    
    I DID cry. Does that disqualify me from the human race?
    
    --bonnie

    I must have phrased things badly to make you feel that you were
    being dumped on.  Let me try again.
    We all have siblings who achieve personal sexual gratification in
    various ways (marriage, whatever).  Why did your brother's  
    admission upset you so?  Why do you view it as a problem "you" must
    come to grips with?  I certainly don't mean to be insensitive, I
    just don't understand.  Is it the fear of AIDS or public reaction that
    bothers you?

    There were two of us who cried for a week, one for a brother, one for a
    friend. I'm the one with the friend.  
    
    I'm sorry if I I read your note wrong; I thought you were belittling my
    feeling rather than just failing to understand. More than one person
    who has replied to this note sounds like they think that in this
    blatantly heterosexual society, considering how gays, especially men,
    are treated, sadness is not a legtimate reaction to finding out someone
    close to you is gay.  You could be crying for anything from the loss of
    family name if an only son never has children to a feared loss of
    reputation to your own fear of your own sexual desires. 
    
    Also please understand that intellectually, I can do nothing but nod
    and agree with what you say.  Before this happened (several years ago
    now, long before worries about AIDS) I was able to say the same kind of
    glib things -- oh, sure, it wouldn't matter, it's his choice, he's
    still one of the most sensitive men I know, and one of the best poets.
    On one level I believe this. But my emotions often lag far, far
    behind my head.
    
    Let me try to explain better about my feelings about my friend who
    cruises.  First of all, let me apologize if I conveyed the impression
    that I thought he is representative of all gay men.  I have known other
    men who told me they were gay and I did not find it upsetting. But, as
    I mentioned, I was not faced directly with the sexual aspects of their
    personalities.  I think if I had known Mike was gay and then met one of
    his one-minute lovers, it would have been easier to take. 
    
    But I found out when I ran into him and a pick-up on the stairs on the
    way to his room, and after that we went out for some food and he told
    me that he was picking up these men for the price of a dinner. He said
    they hardly ever exchange names, and if they do they're often not real
    names. Mike is not the first gay man I have known, but he is the first
    and in fact only gay man I have known who cruises this way. 
    
    *He* equates gayness with cruising.  When I asked him about it, he gave
    me a couple of books to read that all said the same thing. One of them
    was a very fat volume of historical review and scholarly research full
    of wonderfully comforting information about the very high suicide rate
    among gays and the lonely lives lived by older gay men. Only recently
    did it occur to me that he might have chosen books that justified his
    lifestyle, no matter how lonely, rather than those that would help him
    face himself. 
    
    Why did I cry? Because he's not close to anybody, anywhere. Because he
    cuts off anyone who wants to get close to him.  Because he's degrading
    himself in a series of encounters that don't even qualify as affairs.
    Because of the obvious loneliness of that old man he was taking to his
    room, so lonely he would buy a boy with dinner so he could have
    somebody to be close to.  Because if my friend keeps on this way, in 30
    years he's going to be the trench-coated old men picking up a college
    boy for the price of a dinner.  Because I don't understand. 
    
    If being gay in this society was only a matter of personal sexual
    gratification, it would be so much simpler. But choosing to admit you
    are gay limits your career, your social life, your parenting options,
    where you can live, and who will speak to you. Trying to hid it
    eats away with fear inside.  
    
    Maybe I just cry too easy. 
    
    --bonnie
    

    Ah Bonnie,  this note is filled with different kinds of fear is it not?  
    We have the fear that someone we love will be hurt by society
    or by himself.  To hide an inherent part of our biological makeup to 
    appease society is not really a solution you know.  Society does tend to 
    discriminate against the different, or the unusual, or the handicapped, or
    the minority, or the young or old or female .....that is a valid 
    fear.  Not just gays feel the effects of this kind of discrimination.  
    But to participate in the hypocracy is to encourage it.

    Self-destruction is far more damaging.  All of those sad, lonely, alienated,
    insecure children growing into cycles of self-punishment.  If he were not
    gay Bonnie, his feelings of inferiority would only manifest in other ways.
    
    When a gay man stands up and admits what he is,...he knows that he faces
    those who will not speak to him, those who will not promote him, those 
    who will not rent to him or socialize with him.  So why does he do it?
    
    I believe there comes a time for all of us when an issue so affects our
    deepest held sense of worth and self-esteem that we have to confront the
    frightening realities of blind prejudice, look into our own soul and admit 
    that we are what we are.  Those who turn away from us never really cared 
    in the first place.  Those who will discriminate against us will always 
    find someone to discriminate against.  It may be difficult for a parent to
    find that there will be no grandchildren nor will the family name be 
    continued but parents have been facing those possibilities through 
    countless wars and accidents and twists of fate.  We are, each one of us, 
    here to confront ourselves.  Our most difficult battles are fought in our 
    minds.  Our strongest allegiance is to our own sense of values and morality.
    
    We must do what is right for us.  Sometimes that means standing up and 
    saying "this is it...this is what I am".  Those of us who are lucky have 
    family and friends who are proud and accepting of us for what we are.  
    Those who are not so lucky have found strength in the truth.

    Re: .11
    
    Thanks Bonnie for making yourself clear.
    
    I actually know more "straight" men in the kind of situation you
    describe than gays. Aimlessly wandering from one night stand to
    one night stand, never experiencing intimacy with anyone. Being
    isolated, cold, and unhappy. If I found out that one of my relatives
    was like that, I'd cry too, but that isn't "gay".
    
    But that is a lot of why I have problems with the original note. The
    original question presumes that people will relate to "gay" as a class.
    Now while unfortunately, many people do, it is a simplistic question,
    and is a "double-bind" kind of question. Replying to it on its own
    terms reinforces the idea that it is good, or even possible to talk
    about "gay" as a group.
    
    Upon finding out that a relative was gay, I can envision an entire
    spectrum of possible responses, ranging from "Oh that's wonderful!
    I'm so happy for you." to, "Oh no! That's terrible, are you sure?
    Is there anything I can do to help?" (I do have to strech a bit
    for that last, but I could contrive a situation where that would
    be my reaction.)
    
    That's why the original question bothers me. I'm glad to see that
    there HAS been a wide spectrum of responses, and all of them reasonable
    (at least so far.) It goes to show that the original question doesn't
    have a pat, or easy answer.
    
    	-- Charles

    Re .11, I think what seems sleazy about your friend's sex life is
    not the fact that he is gay, but the fact that he is picking up
    sleezy old characters for one-night stands, for the price of dinner,
    without even exchanging names.  It would sound just as unappealing to
    me if he were picking up sleazy old women in the same manner.  (I
    personally wonder how he can enjoy, or even manage, to be intimate
    with such people, but I guess everyone is different.)  Maybe all
    that can be said is, "Yuck!  What a disgusting lifestyle.  It's
    not for me, but if it's what he wants, that's his business."
    
    Lorna
    

    
    "Society" is not some abstract animal sitting up there toying with
    us the way a cat toys with a mouse, imposed from outside by some
    unknown evil force.  "Society" is the people you know, and you care
    about. It's your family, your friends of all varieties and opinions,
    the people who teach your kids in school, the parents of your kids'
    friends, the people who work in the stores, the people who cut you
    off passing on the right on I93 and the street people invading the
    Dunkin' Donuts shop.  Society discriminates against gays or the
    handicapped?  Only through everyday people like you and me. 
    
    It would be easy for me to stand here and tell somebody else to facing
    himself or herself rather than hiding an inherent part of his or
    her biological makeup. (assuming gayness is biologically determined,
    which I thought was a debatable assumption in the first place.)
    I'm not the one who are might have to face having m ex-husband take
    away my daughters because of my lover, as happened to a lesbian
    friend of mine.  He was never her friend?  Well, maybe that's true, but
    that doesn't make the children go away and it certainly doesn't put an
    end to her love for him.  I'm not facing being permanently and legally
    denied permission to adopt a child I dearly love or be a foster parent
    because of who my lover is.  I don't have to worry about getting 
    passed over for the next promotion because the manager is worried
    about the message that would send to the customers about his company's
    moral position.  That happened to another person I know.  I don't
    have to worry about being denied service in my favorite restaurant
    because they're afraid of catching some serious disease from me.
    Other people aren't afraid to let their children play with my daughter
    for fear I'll contaminate them and seduce them while they're playing
    on the swing set. 

    What happens to a schoolteacher who admits he's gay?  How long would
    you be employed in a preschool if you "came out"?  How long are
    you allowed to receive spiritual sustenance from your church if
    you dare show up at services with your lover, unrepentantly giving
    thanks to God for the love you've found? 

    What are parents going to do if a gay son or daughter's behavior
    violates their deeply and sincerely held religious convictions?
    Do you think that doesn't hurt? 
    
    Coping with a friend or relative's same-sex partner is one thing.
    That's love, and you can focus on the happiness of someone you care
    about.  You can sooner or later work through the other pains. But when
    this same person you care deeply about is rooting himself deeper and
    deeper into a life of incredible loneliness, and it doesn't have to be
    that way, you cry.  Haven't you ever cried because a dear friend was
    putting himself or herself through all kinds of needless pain because
    of his or her emotional or practical decisions? 
    
    Maybe my friend's low self-esteem would have come out in other ways if
    he wasn't gay, but on the other hand maybe having to face this kind of
    stigma from his friends, his peers, and his family from an early age
    (he came out when he was 14) was what undermined his self-esteem in the
    first place. Maybe he cut himself off from letting other people close
    becuase he was too used to having them hurt him and reject him when he
    let them near.  Yeah, maybe he's weak. But maybe he's the one who's the
    realist. 
    
    --bonnie

    p.s. I never said gays were the *only* people being discriminated
    against! But I doubt if the homosexuals executed in Hitler's gas
    chambers felt any better because they were going to their deaths in the
    company of prostitutes, gypsies, and Jews. 

Bonnie, 

Judging from the level of hostility I'm getting, I must be consistently 
mis-representing my views.  I'm not advocating that anyone "come out of
the closet", that is a personal decision requiring great courage.  
Neither have I implied that one form of discrimination diminishes another.  

Being a part of a society does not give one the authority or the responsibility
for the actions of the other members of that society or for the society as 
a whole....we have leaders that assume those privileges and obligations.
We can use whatever means are available to us to influence those leaders 
but, in the final analysis they direct the climate of our social philosophies.

We are responsible for our own actions, our own words, our own philosophies.
We (none of us) can help what other people do.  We CAN determine what we will
do however.  I cannot speak for everyone....but I am not and will not be one
of the tools society uses to discriminate against anybody.

Whether or not our scientists finally prove beyond doubt that gayness is 
biologically determined will probably have little influence on how we treat 
someone who is different than we are.  That our instutions (churches, police,
schools, industries, government) will ever come to accept the total experiences
of the human condition is doubtful.  It is in the best interests of our 
institutions to mold humanity into a more manageable state.  

Mankind is still evolving, evolution hasn't stopped.  We don't have to accept 
the unfairness and indignity of our outmoded mores, we can grow into new ways 
of being and doing.  When a member of our family has the honesty and courage 
to come to us and say,..."this is what I am", knowing the hardship and 
difficulties ahead....how can we not respect his courage and support his 
honesty?  He is the same person we have always loved.  He has the same 
feelings, personality, qualities, values and ideas.  Can't we find within 
ourselves some courage and honesty to match his own?  

In the final analysis there is no excuse for what we as individuals do...we 
cannot stand before God and say "it was the church's fault - they taught it, 
or it was the governments fault - they legislated it".  The truth is...every 
choice we make as individuals we are responsible for....responsible for the 
far-reaching effects...good and bad.

Lastly (and I will not reply to this note again) love is not determined by 
the sex of the beloved.  Love exists between old and young, male and female, 
those appropriate and those inappropriate, the ugly and beautiful, the 
brilliant and the stupid.  Love is humanity's saving grace and is a gift 
from God....no matter how it manifests itself, or with who, or when.

    We're talking at entirely different levels. 
    
    Intellectually I agree with every word you say. You are absolutely
    correct.
    
    I'm sorry if I allow society to influence me too much. Unfortunately
    I was raised in it and I live in it and I inevitably share a great
    many of the values and faults of other members of that society.
    My last note was intended to try to explain both the source and
    the depth of those values. 
    
    You are obviously far ahead of me in this area. I'm glad. Knowing
    that someone can get through is a great help.  
    
    I am finally beginning to learn to think for myself; it doesn't come
    easily or quickly.  I'm trying to describe that pain. I'm not trying to
    say that my feeling is rational. Far from it. 
    
    Am I the only person here whose gut feelings get out of synch with
    what her head knows to be right or enlightened?
    
    --bonnie
    

    Re: .17
    
    Nope Bonnie, you aren't the only one who's head get's out of synch
    with her gut feelings. I have lots and lots of problems dealing
    with (my) jealousy, but (please don't interpret this as an attack,
    I'm as sympathetic as can be with your plight) but, I don't try
    to justify it, or rationalize it, and I admit that it is wrong,
    and that it is MY problem. I try not to project my guilt, and I
    try to work through what I know is a problem with me.
    
    The same with a gay relative. If intellectually you know that being
    gay is good, and healthy, and that love, gay or straight, is a reason
    to celebrate and be happy, then intellectually you should also realize
    that your tears and apprehensions are your problem.
    
    I admire your courage in admitting to a non-PC attitude, and explaining
    where it comes from, and asking for support. That was quite brave.
    I hope you feel better. Dwell on all of the positive aspects of
    the relationship. Rejoice in the fact that someone is more sure
    of themselves, be happy that they trust you enough to share this
    part of themselves with you. Help them, be supportive, be
    understanding, but be happy.
    
    And when you see someone who DOESN'T understand, even intellectually,
    that "gay is ok", correct them. Compassionately, but firmly. I'm
    not yet to the point where it doesn't matter to me if my children
    are gay or straight, but I'm working on it.
    
    	-- Charles

<><><><><><><><>  T h e   V O G O N   N e w s   S e r v i c e  <><><><><><><><>

 Edition : 2404              Tuesday 10-Sep-1991            Circulation :  8301 

Lotus - Extends company benefits to cover domestic partners of homosexual staff
	{The Wall Street Journal, 9-Sep-91, p. B6C}
   Lotus, in a pioneering move, became the first large company to offer
 domestic partners of its homosexual employees the health and other benefits it
 offers spouses of married employees. Lotus said its new policy requires gay
 and lesbian couples seeking to qualify for corporate family benefits to sign
 affidavits attesting they have marriage-like relationships. Among other
 stipulations, partners must attest that they are each other's "sole spousal
 equivalent and intend to remain so indefinitely," that they reside together
 and that they're responsible for each other's welfare, said Russ Campanello,
 vice president, human resources. An estimated 10% of Lotus' employees are
 homosexuals; less than half of such employees are expected to qualify and
 apply for family benefit coverage, Mr. Campanello said.