Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    Most ignore it!
    
    M-L
    
    ;^}
    

Hi.....



Dad ;-)

    Bad joke alert!!!
    
    

    

    
    I had mine spayed!
    
    Spence

    
         No, this is a serious thing to ponder.  I am a yet-to-be-married
    person, and I must admit that I have a fear that any future daughter
    might turn out to be a Madonna or a Lisa Bonet.  I'd rather go
    childless.  As a male, of course I think that rearing a male child
    would be easier (for me).
    
                                Bubba
    

re .0:

The nearest I've got be being the father of teenage daughters is when I 
used to work with children (my first career).

Teenagers are still experimenting with behaviour pushing you to the limit 
to see how far they can go, exploring 'adult' areas of knowledge sometimes 
flirting, sometimes with innocent curiosity. They can catch you out in so 
many ways and get you embarrassed or confused, all this is normal.

I coped with many teenage girls many who were in homes for being a little 
difficult to deal with and found the best policy was to be patient, 
understanding and above all loving.

Dave.

Like Dave: "The nearest I've got be being the father of teenage daughters is 
when I used to work with children (my first career)." I was a teacher for
a while (in a mixed [co-ed] secondary school and a single sex girls' boarding
school)

In the mixed environment I found the pre-puberty kids a nuisance, but they
shifted their "crushes" to the boys when they got a little older.

In the single sex school the ones around 14-15 were a pain, but easily ignored
(in that far off flush of an early career - only 21 myself - I viewed the
youngsters as "such children").

The only time I had to be seriously defensive was in the co-ed school when
some of the 6th formers (16-17 year old) discovered that I also worked as
a commercial photographer: then I was seriously propositioned to get them
a modeling job (needless to say I didn't even consider accepting!) [Yes
one of them did go on to be a successful model, yes I did get her her first
job, and no I didn't accept her offers to show me how thankful she was]

/. Ian .\

    
         Yeah, I guess love is all you can give them, and then hope
    for the best.  BUT, I doubt any father can fight the urge to want
    guarantees where there are none.
    
                                      Bubba
    

    
    
    This is from a daughter with an opinion about how her own father
    could have made things easier.  This is not to say that I'm a terror
    but I went through ten tough years and I think I can attribute it
    to the generation in which I grew up.  Dad was a gem in almost every
    way - he didn't drink, brought his paycheck home and loved my mother
    dearly.  His only short-coming (in my eyes) was not demonstrating
    his love for me.  I can count on one hand the number of times he
    hugged/kissed me and one two fingers the number of times he said
    "I love you".  Don't get me wrong - he did and does love me.  But
    it took *years* for me to know that.  So I sought male affection
    in places and ways that caused my heart pain.  My greatest advice
    to a father with a daughter - let her know how you feel. Cuddle
    her, hug her and tell her you love her.  Let her know you will be
    her best male friend always.  I missed that and it still hurts.
    
    Vicki

    re: .4
    
    That's a fear I didn't even consider.  A Madonna as a daughter would be
    bad news indeed ... As a male, though, I think that rearing a female
    child would be much easier than rearing a male child.  When I was
    young, I was tough - VERY tough - on my parents (but of course, they
    were tough on me too).  I'd have to say that ANY of my sisters were
    much easier to deal with (for my parents, at least) than I was. Raising
    a son can be a real bitch ... and I was *EASY* compared to many of my
    friends!
    
    re: .8
    
    A very nice posting.  And very thought-provoking.  I suspect all
    fathers would like to be perceived as 'loving' to their daughters (at
    least those that aren't too heavy into the "macho" look, I'd think) - I
    know I would.  I wonder how tough it would be, though, especially
    considering the sometimes VERY strong mother-daughter bonds that can
    develop.
    
    In my family, my father wasn't terribly loving to any of us. Especially
    not my sisters.  However, we learned to trust him more than perhaps we
    trusted my mother; he was predictable and fair, which was much more
    than we could say for mother ...
    
    	-- Jeff

    re .4
    
    >"...I have a fear that any future daughter might turn out to be
    >a Madonna or a Lisa Bonet. I'd rather go childless"
    
    I would never be presumptious enough to pre-judge what I think
    a future child *should* turn out according to some ideal I have based
    on 1987. I would rather offer a child a quality, ethical upbringing
    and hope that they mature with a presence of mind to know themselves
    well enough to do what they think is right for them...even if I
    disagree. I may not like it...but thats the chance you take when
    you raise a child....I really feel that if your not ready to accept
    the unique human being that you've raised no matter how they choose
    to live their adult lives (subjective but within reason)
    ...then your not ready. 
    

    I would think that the best you can hope for is to educate her about
    the 'birds and the bees'.  As far as coping with the stress involved,
    do you trust her?  If you can't trust her, then try Valium.
    
    Spence
    
    BTW, this is a shot in the dark and I don't have the experience
    to justify this.  Just throwing in something to talk about.  See
    note 89.2 for an explanation of why I decided to do this.

    Okay, here's one attempt to address the question.
    
    My brothers and I lived with my Dad when I hit puberty.  At that
    time, all of a sudden, everyone started wearing clothes in the house.
    Dad's family was quite repressed about nudity (my grandmother had
    to wear long-sleeved clothing in public) and he was not exactly
    sexually active as a kid, so he had no idea what an adolescent girl
    looked like.
    
    Both he and my brothers were uncomfortable as hell wth my transition
    to womanhood, and started to get really mad if I didn't dress myself
    to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night.  I didn't care
    at all, and didn't see why a change in my body should dictate that
    I had to wear clothes.
    
    Worse yet, when I started menstruating, he decided I had to go to
    Dr Gluck, our pediatrician, for a gyn exam to make sure all my plumbing
    was okay.  This was a bit premature, to say the least, for a 13-year
    old!  He had no idea what the exam was going to be like, and I was
    scared silly.  Luckily, he had a girlfriend then who said he was
    being stupid.
    
    So maybe you all think it will be easy for you, but _my_ dad had
    a hard time.
    
    Lee

    re. 8	Of course, the first real response with any meaning comes from
a non-male.

	re. 11.	Well put!
    
DON"T NEXT ME!....
	I'm not just a jerk....
	I'm also a 35 year old single male parent with 2 daughters.
	1 is 15.5 and the other is 12.9.

So i'm in the boat.

	My oldest started menstruating at just over 13 and my youngest
started just a month ago. We have talked (and continue to do so) about
sex and menstruation and pregnancy and raising children and getting a
good education and a good career many times so i feel we three are very
open and honest about these things.
	Except my youngest daughter didn't tell me when she started her period.
I asked her the other day if it started yet and she said yes. My oldest
told me the day it started.
	Since i don't believe in marriage and do believe in love and
relationships and sex I can't suggest that they wait until they are
married before they have sex. I do suggest that they be selective about
sexual encounters, especially with aids. I asked both of them to let me
know when they were ready for sex so we could "prepare defenses". My oldest
wanted the pill at 14.5. so we went to a gynecologist and a family counselor
and she's been on the pill ever since.
	I talk to them about the double standards that boys and parents
use in conjunction with teen sex; boys can/ girls can't, and I let them
know that I don't agree with or follow those double standards. I do not
want to make them feel guilty about something that is a natural and en-
joyable part of life. I wish the rest of society would help out.
	I tell them that, whatever they choose for themselves;
		be madonna
		be religious
		be abstinate
		be gay
		be a prostitute
		be bi-sexual
		or even, gahst, be a republican conservative
	as long as they are happy it's really none of my business and
I'll accept their decision.

	I told my youngest, just the other day, to let me know when she
feels ready for sex. She said she wasn't ready yet. I believe her.
	
	Of course, in these early teen years they fight with each other
terribly! they remind me of so many noters :-)
	But they treat me fine! We hug and kiss and tell each other that
we love each other ALL THE TIME! I don't ever want to lose that with them.
To avoid the fighting between themselves I usually try to keep them sep-
erated, except at dinner/lunch. They get up and go to school at different
times and have seperate bedrooms. I usually try to isolate them when i talk
to them about "stuff" (how's school? how are your friends...etc)
	When they were 6 and 8.5 someone said.....
	"you think it's bad?  wait until they're teenagers!..."
	At the time I didn't think it was bad. I thought it was pretty
nice. I liked being a single parent and I loved them and wanted to help
them grow/develop into thinking entities (as opposed to good little doobees
who do what they are told without thinking). Life was fine!
	Then they did become teens........yuk......
	But I still love em and I'm hoping that everyone who says that they'll
stop fighting and start loving when they are older is correct.
	But I have doubts.

    	

    Re: .11
    
         I didn't say I wouldn't accept the child, what I said was that
    as a forethought, if I could see into the future, I would rather
    not have one like the two women I mentioned.
    
                                  Bubba
    
    BTW, the proper contraction for "You Are" is "You're" not "Your".
    

re .14:

>    re. 8	Of course, the first real response with any meaning comes from
>a non-male.

Please don't put people down in this conference so casually. It hardly 
lends credence to the points you had to make (which were *good*).

Dave.

    re.16
    after having been beaten and bashed and pummelled and ripped and
    blundgeoned and abused and bruised by so many noters so often
    after stateing one of my thoughts and/or beliefs i find myself
    a little quick on the draw.
    
    i've been called all kinds of things and accused of all kinds of
    horrible deeds and actions by people who i now hold in the depths
    of contempt.
    I never noticed anyone coming to my defence.
    
    my points don't carry much credence in notes anyway.
    
    
    but that's ok cuz i know i'm fine.
    

    
    I think notes should be fun...a few laughs, a few ideas, maybe
    different ideas but hey that's what makes the world go 'round. 
    whatta ya say we put up with each other...and be friends...
    
    Now back to the subject...I once heard a joke that told the story
    of a kid who got an 'A' on a physchology test by simply stating
    "why not" when asked "why?"...
    
    ...tracy...

    re .17
    You sound like a fine parent who has established a close, working
    relationship with your daughters.  As a mother of two teenage boys
    who has had to make similiar choices, I can identify with you. 
    Teaching survival skills to our children is a noble endeavor at
    best and I too ask first "Do you think you are ready for this kind
    of a relationship?".