Conference quark::mennotes-v1

  Sexist ad?   Well... I suppose so.  A first reaction might be to say that
  knowing the sex of the owner tells you something about the amount of abuse
  the auto has taken over it's lifetime.  It was once thought that men were
  much more abusive to cars than women (at least that's what I heard when I
  was in high school).  They (men) would spin tires more, carry more people on
  longer trips, etc... sort of the motor-head stereotype, if you will.
  
  As far as doing something about that ad... I'm not sure it's necessary.
  Whoever posted it thought that that tidbit of info would make a difference
  to people reading it.   Another variable that we may not know - who wrote
  the ad?  Did "Dave" simply type in the "lady owner's" words, or did he write
  it himself for her?  In the long run of things, he (Dave) said nothing about
  the state of affairs regarding the "lady owner".
  
  Just some thoughts...

re .1:

>			Another variable that we may not know - who wrote
>  the ad?  Did "Dave" simply type in the "lady owner's" words, or did he write
>  it himself for her?  In the long run of things, he (Dave) said nothing about
>  the state of affairs regarding the "lady owner".
  
I know the name of the author, it has been ommitted because it is 
irrelevant. I (Dave) did not write this ad, it was posted by a noter of
unknown sex in a conference I moderate.

Dave.

    I think that its a very minor sexist point and shouldn't warrant
    any intervention whatsoever.  If the ad said 'driven by a little
    old lady', she may have been the one from Pasadena.  The buyer can
    draw his/her own judgement about the fact that the driver was a
    lady.  The fact that the price is in # (pounds) indicates that the
    seller is English, therefore, the car may have been owned by a woman
    of high esteem.  I'm still a little foggy about the use of 'lady'
    in England.  I had to look for the sexist part and when I found
    it, I thought "So what, it was owned by a lady".  I don't think
    its a big deal, especially not big enough to antagonize a noter
    over.
    
    One man's opinion.
    
    Spence

    None of my business, but GAG ME DEAD, blech, ptooey, etc, etc.
    
    Wouldn't do anything about it, and just 'cause it's sexist wouldn't
    keep me from buying the car, but blech, cough, ick, aarg...
    
    Lee

	Well didn't he just catch you all? Do you really think that an 
	English Lady would stoop so low as to drive a VW polo? And one
	so old, and then stoop even lower and go to work, at an American
	company yet, and then really bottle out and advertize the fact
	in a notes file? C'mon.......

Richard.

    Come to think of it. ;-)
    
    Spence

I don't think that you should do anything to the NOTE, but I do think 
that you should consider doing something.  The point isn't whether or 
not the sexism affects the sale of the car.  The point is that there 
shouldn't be sexist NOTES placed in the file.  

Maybe you could place a message in NOTE 1 saying that people should 
avoid sexist language if it has nothing to do with the NOTE.


					--Gerry

    If I have to pick and choose each and every word that I write to
    make sure that its not sexist, I won't be here very long.
    
    This is such a minor example anyway.
    
    spence
    

re.5:

>               -< Mr Kerrell is pulling your collective plonker >-
>
>	Well didn't he just catch you all? Do you really think that an 
>	English Lady would stoop so low as to drive a VW polo? 

'fraid not Richard, the ad is genuine. The 'lady owner' probably refers to
the fact that the owner is female, well-mannered and 'gentile' and not that
she is 'titled'.
As for whether a 'lady' (in the titled sense) would stoop so low....well I
used to know a 'lord' who worked as a milkman!

(no flames about 'stoop so low', they were Richard's words quote..unquote..)

Dave.

    I brought up the part about the English Lady in jest.  I'm sorry.
    
    Spence

    if the owner is a woman, and thinks that it will make her car more
    attractive to advertise that fact, what's wrong? 
    
    any sexism here is in the mind of the beholder.
    
    besides, *anybody* who buys a used car from *anybody else* without
    first having it checked professionally is nuts, and deserves whatever
    misfortune befalls.
    
    /bruce

    On balance I would concur: "caveat emptor" after all. However the ad
    appeared in a British notes file. The sad fact is that "one careful
    lady owner" is almost a vaudeville joke in Britain. Usually it brings
    to mind all the sexist images of "little old lady" drivers, who rarely
    drive, drive slowly etc etc etc.
    
    The fact of modern reality is that more frequently the woman uses her
    car to drive a gang of kids to school and generally treats the car like
    a school bus crossed with a commercial delivery van, with the consequence
    that it wears out faster than the "typical man's" car which is more
    likely used for longer runs with fewer stops and less strain on the
    mechanical systems.
    
    So: no I don't think it is sexist, but I do think it is "picturesque"
    and probably inappropriate to make the point.
    

    /. Ian .\

re .13:

>    The fact of modern reality is that more frequently the woman uses her
>    car to drive a gang of kids to school and generally treats the car like
>    a school bus crossed with a commercial delivery van, with the consequence
>    that it wears out faster than the "typical man's" car which is more
>    likely used for longer runs with fewer stops and less strain on the
>    mechanical systems.
    
How can you justify an argument that the phrase is not sexist using sexist 
bogotry to backup your argument?

Dave.

    
    	Thank you, Dave!!!  
    
    Not all of us women use our cars to drive kids to school.  

               My
    

    re .14 and .15
    Should we assume that you both live in Britain, as Ian pointed out,
    and you are aware of a different situation there?  Personally, I
    have no idea what British women do or don't do with their cars.
    
    Spence

     
    
    	re.16
    
    	Does it matter whether I live in Britain or not?  It's 
    	generally assumed (often wrongly) here in the U.S. too, that
    	women know *nothing* about cars!

        	

    re .17
    Yes, it matters.  Nobody said anything about what *American* women
    do with their cars.  If you intended to point out that American
    women are different than British women, then you misstated your
    reply.  If I pointed out that women in Ethiopia wear bones in their
    noses, would you assume that this applied to American women also?
    Would it also be sexist bigotry to point it out?
    
    Spence

    Thanks Spence - now I'll try again...
    
    The phrase "one [careful] lady driver" has become a cliche in Britain,
    and has been a music hall joke since the twenties. It tends to convey
    the wrong impression (not that women know nothing about cars - merely 
    that they dither about on the road). 
    
    The modern cliche is also not true of everybody, but Britain and America 
    differ in one very iomportant aspect here: there are precious few school 
    buses in Britain, and it does often fall on the mothers (often in a car 
    pooling concept) to ferry kids to school.
    
    Regardless of the driving patterns of any noter here statistically in
    British two car families the "woman's car" *is* used for shorter journeys
    with frequent stops, and the "man's car" for longer journeys (eg if they
    have two cars "his" is usually bigger, and will be used weekend trips
    - it is very rare for both cars to be of the same type). This results
    in *statistically* greater wear on the "woman's car". There is no
    statistical variation in use patterns between cars owned by single women,
    or single men. Cars belonging to one car families are markedly worst.
    
    This is nothing to do with degree of knowledge, driving skill or anything
    else but a matter of the simple fact that when the familly travels as a 
    familly it generally does so in a single vehicle and chooses the more 
    confortable, roomy vehicle to do so.
    
    Making a statement as I did might be a sexist generalisation in America,
    but it is a statistically valid observation in Britain.
    
    I reiterate: advertising the car as "owned by a lady" or whatever the
    wording is, *in Britain* conveys a humorous connotation which the writer
    of the ad may have intended. It may also convey to the reader the image
    of the short hop shopping car/school bus, which might also be erroneous.
    It conveys *no* positive messages. Thus it may or may not be sexist,
    it may or may not trigger sexist responses in the readers, but it doesn't
    convey any useful information. In short it is bad advertising copywriting.
    
    /. Ian .\

Ian, you ain't kidding either...

Has anybody noticed how Reading's morning "rush"-"hour" traffic goes from
unbearable to almost acceptable during the school holidays?

Tarik.

re .20:

>Has anybody noticed how Reading's morning "rush"-"hour" traffic goes from
>unbearable to almost acceptable during the school holidays?

I pass three schools on my way to work, the first two are in Whitley not 
known for its wealthy population, I have never seen a single child dropped 
off in a car here. The second is a Catholic school where its hard to spot a 
child arriving on foot, a good proportion of the drivers are men! What a 
suprise. Of those women that drop children off most are only dropping off 
one and sometimes two children! And the cars they drive are very clean 
shiny well looked after expensive cars!

Of the women I know who drive most use their cars to go to work.

These are the exceptions that prove the rule - the rule is don't 
generalise!

Dave.

Who's generalising? I'm just reporting a fact!!!!??? ie kids get driven to 
school these days... Course, in my day I had to go on't two corporation buses 
to get to school... Eeeee, they don't know they're born...

T.

    
    
    My mom says she had to walk 4 miles to school...
    
    But seriously folks...i was about a mile and 1/2 from all my schools
    (4 schools) and was made to walk to all 4.  Not complaining though...
    i loved it!!!  Besides, we were embarrassed if MOM or DAD dropped
    us off at school!!!
    
    ...tracy...
    

re .22:

>Who's generalising? I'm just reporting a fact!!!!??? 

'fraid your are...

>ie kids get driven to school these days... 

You should have said "some kids get driven to school these days..."

Dave.

    Dave,
    
    I think you're missing the point.
    
    The fact is that the roads get less busy when the schools are on
    holiday. What other reason can you give for this. Try doing this
    without making silly Socialist points if you can....
    
    Kim
    

Dear Kim

>    The fact is that the roads get less busy when the schools are on
>    holiday. What other reason can you give for this. Try doing this
>    without making silly Socialist points if you can....
    
    	Ever heard of an Agent Provocateur?

Richard.

re .25:

>    I think you're missing the point.

I do not agree I started this topic because I was unsure whether a 
statement made in an ad was sexist or not. The discussion took the course 
of whether or not you can judge a car by the sex of the owner/driver. 
I personally don't believe you can tell a thing by this statement unless 
you beleive in the stereotype lady driver that Ian mentioned. I do not 
dispute that the roads get less busy when schools are out however I have to 
take such input in support of stereotype in the context of the complete 
discussion and not in isolation.
    
Please do not make comments about my politics and your opinion of them 
without proper reference to something I have said, otherwise I will 
consider such remarks as an attempt to discredit what I say by labeling me 
with yet another stereotype.

Dave.

    This whole argument seems to be coming to the point where everyone
    should state where they are talking about.  I assume that Whitley,
    re .21, is in the US.
    
    My wife drives the better vehicle.  I carry the kids around because
    they ride better in my pickup than getting hair all over inside
    of her 4Runner.  They don't go to school, they're dogs.
    
    Spence (Colorado)

    The random house dictionary defines sexism as "discrimination or
    bias because of sex." I believe the ad does fall into this category,
    whether the "lady owner" was stated seriously or in jest.  However
    that does not answer the real question as to whether it is offensive?
    In this case I feel it is a waste of space and not offensive.  It
    tells me nothing meaningful about the car (whether you ar in England
    or US) because it does not tell me how the lady used or cared for
    the car.  Now if I am foolish enough to read it and jump to the
    conclusion that the car is better (or worse) because of that fact
    than I am acting in an offensively sexist manner and will probably
    get what I deserve (either buying a car that is not as good as I
    thought or not buying a car that would have been better than I
    thought).