Conference quark::mennotes-v1

Spence.. you are so right. God did make people so that they are 
attractive to each other. It's not wrong to be attracted to the
opposite sex...of course not...it's RIGHT...

When men and women stop looking at each other and admiring each
other..then we're really going to have a problem. If we weren't
meant to, we wouldn't have been given all those wonderful hormones.

I can really appreciate looking (ogling) at an attractive man. So,
if you're guilty of ogling, then I guess I am too. ;-}

Both men and women are God's creation of beauty that should be given
even more attention than a perfect rose. 
 
kathie
    

    Yup, I go to the beach
    I winter I watch the beauty 
    In summer I watch the beauties! 
    
    anil.  (sos)
     

    Another thing that I forgot was sparked by Terza about being only
    5 feet tall.  I *love* short women.  My wife is 5'3".  I'm 5'9".
    Its unfortunate that so many men and women feel uncomfortable about
    being short.  As a kid, short boys were seen as inferior, I don't
    know about girls.  But, when I see a short woman, my heart pounds.
    I wonder why.  It just goes to show, somebody somewhere likes you,
    no matter what you look like.  I'm skinny, but my wife likes me
    that way.
    
    I also like tall women but in a different way.  The ads on TV usually
    show seductive women as being tall.  Well, they are nice to look
    at, but give me a shorty any day.  Probably has something to do
    with an internal desire to be dominant. ;-)
    
    Spence

    I don't want to blast anyone, but being "appreciated" can be very
    scary for the woman.  Maybe I'm strange, but the feelings that come
    up when a man stares at me are very mixed: sometimes it makes me
    feel very attractive, sometimes it scares the sh*t out of me.  One
    of my old friends constantly blasts me for this, "if we didn't look
    at you, you'd wonder what was wrong with you.  If we do look, you
    get ticked off!  What's a guy to do?"
    
    Dunno.  It seems that if I do not feel threatened by the "offender"
    then it is a pleasant thing.  And there seem to be several situations
    which keep the man from seeming like a threat: 1) he is someone I know
    and a) doesn't seem likely to come on very strong, or b) is attractive
    enough that I don't mind if he comes on; 2) he is someone I don't know
    but I am in a VERY safe setting and he is attractive.  But these
    are very general rules of thumb, and are not always right.  Sometimes
    you could be most of the above and still alienate me with your
    glance/stare. 
    
    It gets unpleasant if the man acts quite the MCP (and I am not
    referring to opening doors and the like; more along the lines of
    condescending at me), if he says _anything_ about liking what he
    sees (unless of course he is a close friend of mine), or if someone
    just before him has gotten my guard up.
    
    None of this is fair, as no one should be expected to read my mind.
    But I feel what I feel, and there are others who feel similarly.
    
    Worst is the fact that I am a "man-watcher."  I never let the guy
    know I am watching him though...wish I could be a little more
    consistent... 
    
    Lee

    
    Well, I tend to think there's watching and there's gaping.  How
    do we tell the difference?  You got me.
    
    I don't know how good I am at beeing discreet at it.  I've never
    had a woman come up to me and say, "Will you please stop staring
    at me," but I don't know how good a measure that is.
                      
    Lee mentions that there are situations where being looked at can
    make a woman feel very uncomfortable.  I think situation is the
    key word there.  Knowing what some of those situations are
    is part of the key to keeping anyone from getting the shivers from
    this.  Of course, despite how hard I try, I can't really know when
    a woman thinks she's safe and when she doesn't, now, can I.
    
    And there are moments when I can't help myself.
    
    DFW

    Re .0, I just hope that you are capable of appreciating women for
    something besides physical beauty.  Can you appreciate women for
    their personalities, brains, humor, interesting conversation - or
    is all you want in woman physical beauty?  I hope not.
    
    You said that you think beautiful women are deserving of more attention
    than a perfect rose (or some such crap :-)  ).  I can't help but
    wonder what you think women who are not beautiful (which is the
    majority from what I can tell) are deserving of?
    
    I don't know.  It just sounds so superficial.  I've been guilty
    of noticing handsome men, too (once I saw a guy on the sidewalk
    who was so cute that I turned to look and smashed right into another
    person).  But, I'm more into personalities than I am looks - in
    the long run.
    
    Sometimes when I see men look at me I wonder if they're looking
    because they think I'm cute or because they think I'm funny looking.
     So, it can be uncomfortable.
    
    Lorna
    

    re .4
    
    > or b) is attractive enough that I don't mind if he comes on; 
    
    > but I am in a VERY safe setting and he is attractive. 
       
    I don't see these stated criteria as consistant with any sort of
    objection you might have.  You've just said what is important to
    you.
    
    - M (ugly as sin :-))

    re .4:
    
    It also occurs to me that men using the same criteria as you do should
    be granted at least a quick glance to decide if you are attractive
    enough to check them out or if they should be offended. 
    
    - M

    re.7, .8:
    
    I never said it was rational or fair.  Just trying to explain _what_
    happens.  I don't try to justify it, that's just the way I react,
    and I am afraid I am not the only woman with this sort of
    double-standard.  We can't all be 100% rational and free 100% of
    the time, you know...
    
    Also, I haven't tried to beat up (or spit at :-)) anyone who gave
    me a "quick glance."
    
    Lee

    
    	It has been my opinion that people like .7's attitude/reasoning
    	have, tend to key on personality, humor, ect..cause that's
    	all they have going for them.
    
    	Now before I get shot for that comment, I might remind you
    	of the 1st line...ie. "It's my opinion.."
    
    	Todd

    
    	Gee TODD, haven't heard from you in awhile....
    
    	RE .7.  UNderstandably so, yes personality, and intelligence
    		counts, BUT, If when you see someone, isn't it physical
    		attraction that you first notice, IF you don't know
    		them.  AFter all Personality, and intelligence are not
    		seen on the outside.  BUT remember Beauty lies in the
    		eyes of the beholder.
    
    			Mike

    
    Perhaps if everyone wore table of contents on their jeans (just
    under the LEVIS waist measurement tag) we can ogle and constructively
    analyze at the same time.  (Table of contents showing IQ, personality
    traits etc).
    
    
                            ...... NAAAAAH!
    

    I haven't been ignoring everyone, I've been trying to catch up on
    WOMANNOTES.  Boy, that conference grows so fast I can't keep up.
    
    My philosophy is that there is someone for everyone.  What I see
    as attractive is not necessarily even close to the consensus of
    other men.  I remember one day that a friend of mine and I were
    sitting in the cafeteria (good place for girl watching because of
    the variety).  I spied a woman who I considered the *best* looking
    woman in the plant.  He thought she was alright.  Then I spied the
    2nd best looking woman in the plant.  He didn't like her at all.
    I asked him to point out a woman who he thought was good looking.
    He picked out a woman to whom I wouldn't give a 2nd glance.  Yes,
    beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  If everyone liked the same
    people, there would be an awfully lot of lonely people.
    
    And there are traits about women that I admire other than physical 
    beauty.  I love a woman with a good sense of humor, doesn't matter
    what she looks like.  I once had a friend who was *ugly to the bone*
    but she made me laugh.  I liked her.  I have a friend who, when
    I first met her, was not pleasant to look at.  I was her supervisor
    and we worked together and talked a lot and the longer I knew her,
    the better looking she got.  I have also known some raving beauties,
    in my eyes, who were real bitches.  All they were good for was looking
    at.  They had the personality of a cow pasture.
    
    When I think of beauty, women come first, then flowers.  Not to
    insult anyone's intelligence, but all of the following examples
    are flowers.  I think that dandelions are beautiful, the bright 
    yellow, square topped petals and the fluffy white balls of seeds 
    afterwards.  My wife thinks they are ugly weeds.  A String of Pearls 
    to me is *ugly*.  Other people think they are just beautiful.
    To me, a Bird of Paradise is beautiful, my wife thinks they are
    ugly.  I like Candian Thistle, English Daisies, Dandelions, Bindweed, 
    Ground Ivy, etc., but they are all weeds.  Some people think they 
    are ugly.  Maybe I'm narrow minded or have tunnel vision, but I see 
    just the flower, with its pretty colored petals, and I ignore the 
    ugly parts of the plant, like the leaves.  And that's the way I
    look at women.  If I see a Columbine, I alert to its beauty.  If
    I see a weed, I ignore it unless I have occasion to stop and look
    closer to see its actual beauty.  There is beauty in everything
    if we would just take the time to see it.  There is a slug, yeah,
    the slimy critters, in Washington that is beautiful.  Its about
    as big as your thumb and its bright orange.  I used to watch them
    for a long time and I was 25 years old.
    
    My father once told me about how, when I was a child, he'd be looking
    for me and he would find me lying in the lawn studying some weed in 
    the grass, like Clover or Ground Ivy.  I'd pick a flower and go into 
    my room and study it for an hour or so.  Gee, maybe I should have 
    been a botanist.   
    
    I would never want to make someone uncomfortable about their looks
    or embarass them by my looking.  I hope I'm discreet.  I hate men
    who talk to me about how ugly so-and-so is.  Half of them are no
    better looking than the women they are talking about.  I figure
    that I am good looking to some women and accept that I'm not to
    others.  I've got a wife who likes me.  Not many things make me
    feel better than a woman telling me that she likes me.  I once told
    a man that I thought he was good looking.  Hoooeeee, did that start
    a ruckus.  He thought I was coming on to him, when in fact, he had
    dark brown hair and blue eyes.
    
    Wow, I got kinda carried away again.  I hope I didn't put anybody
    to sleep.
    
    Spence

	I work beside a window, past that window most the British contingent
	of Digital pass twice a day. I like my job.......
	I am a people watcher, but I of all the people I watch I like watching
	attractive girls the most, there is nothing quite so refreshing as
	watching a "clutch?" of pretty girls in summer clothes going for 
	lunch. I make no apology for the fact that I find it enjoyable.
	I don't lear, however, if ever caught looking out by the folks looking
	in I present the best smile you ever saw and wave in a friendly fashion.
	The smiles that are returned are a real lift sometimes...I like my job.

Richard.

    Re .13, how can you say that personality and sense of humor are
    all somebody has going for them?  I think if somebody has a great
    personality and a great sense of humor they've got quite a bit going
    for them.  Some people have gotten pretty far in life on a great
    personality and a great sense of humor (like Woody Allen).
    
    Good physical looks is something different.  I can appreciate good
    physical looks the same way I would a painting or a sunset, but
    it doesn't mean I'll like the person.
    
    Re .16, nice note.  I enjoyed reading it.  Didn't put me to sleep.
    
    Lorna
    

	I get a lot fewer complaints about my checking out the girls lately
	since I got these new mirrored sunglasses.  I've also been able
	to train my facial muscles so that I don't smirk when I see someone
	halfway decent.  Unfortunately there isn't much I can do about the
	wheezing.


    	Jake

    re .18
>    Good physical looks is something different.  I can appreciate good
>    physical looks the same way I would a painting or a sunset, but
>    it doesn't mean I'll like the person.
     
    That says it all.  And a painting that I hate will look beautiful
    to someone else.  Take Picasso for instance.  Yucko!
    
    Spence

    I admit to enjoying looking at attractive women. Sure I enjoy
    talking to intelligent women but I enjoy talking to intelligent
    men too. I'm not that interested in watching men though.
    
    Looking is one thing being with and enjoying the company is another
    thing.
    
    			Alfred

    Didn't your mothers ever tell you:
    
    	"It's not polite to stare at strangers!"
    
    

    
    BUT, a stranger is just a friend you haven't met yet.
    

    
    	
    	
    	I don't STARE at women... I don't like it when
    	they do it to me.
    
    

    RE: .24
    
    	Aaahhhhh Yea.  :-)
    
    	Ok, I'll fess up. I LOVE looking at women. I don't stare, but
    	I do admire. I don't consider it sexist or degrading to enjoy
    	something that God has given someone. Shit, most of the good
    	looking girls in DEC dress to kill, why not oblige them by
    	looking?
    
    							mike

    
        OK... I have to admit it, I'm one of the watchers too.
    
        I agree that STARING is impolite and I would imagine that it
    would cause considerable discomfort to the person in question if
    the observation was not of a discreet nature. Any time I have had
    the feeling that someone was uncomfortable because we kept having
    "unintentional eye-contact" I simply smile and look away. Up to now,
    it has never caused me a problem.
    
        It does occur to me though.... was she staring at me ??
    
    be lucky,
    
    Steve 

    
    Why all this guilt about looking at people? Don't tell me
    you also have *LUST* in your hearts too?     
                                                           
    I don't see the point of agonizing over looking at women. I love
    watching people in general & women in particular, & I am not one
    bit ashamed. And yes, I am a bit selective about looks, which is
    perfectly normal and my perogative since I do not make my personal
    prejudices a matter of public record. Since I am not a mindreader
    I cannot determine personality at a distance, which makes it
    a moot point. 
    
    Why does something this simple and pleasant always have to
    break down into guilty self-examination and equivication? Having
    had some good long talks with other women, and Irene (SO/wife)
    in particular, women do exactly the same thing, complete with
    value judgements, prejudices, etc. The only difference I can
    see (no pun intended) is that men are more honest about it?
    

re: .24
>    	I don't STARE at women... I don't like it when
>    	they do it to me.
    
Especially when they're STARING about 7 inches below the
belt-line!  (Maybe if I wasn't one of those old fogies who
likes to look at faces instead of b**bs, this wouldn't bug
so much though...!)

Ah, but how much of this "ogling" is simply role-play?

I remember a few years ago when I had a very brief spell as a lorry driver, the 
ogling that you could do and get away with was unbelievable!! As a young man
driving a truck around London, women would almost expect you to be hanging out
of the cab to lear at them. If I had tried that just driving a car I'd have 
been arrested I'm sure.

But then I crashed the lorry (not through looking at women though)!!

Tarik (disgraced ex-would-be-trucker)

    Ah, yes: that reminds me!...
    
    Back in the '60s a Bill was introduced in Parliament [in England] to
    make mini-skirts (defined as anything with the hem above the knee -
    I think the bill included hot pants too) illegal because they caused
    traffic accidents.
    
    Then when I was at University the Dean put out an order banning "girls
    in mini-skirts" from walking up certain staircases (that had glass rails)
    - they had to use the elevators.
    
    ... those were the days ;-}
    
    /. Ian .\

Really? Was that because they distracted the drivers...?

...or was it the horses?? :-) :-)

    
    RE: .27
    
    I'm a woman and I'll be honest about it...I watch men!!!  
    
    RE: .28
    
    and I look at all his qualities...not 7 inches below the belt!!!
                                          
    ...tracy...
                                                              
    

    
    re: .32
      Good for you, if more women admitted to that fact life would be
    simpler.
    

    Hi, my name is Rich. I am new at this so please forgive me if I
    get out of hand. I,m an extreemist. I,ve always been one. To me
    women are the only beautiful creations god made. Everything else
    is just ok. I,m not fussy about hair color, or height, or weight,
    or skin color. I appreciate women who make themselves as gorgious
    as they can be, for any occasion, whether it be for themselves,
    for their loved ones, or for all of us who admire beauty.      
              
    I can be found anytime, anywhere looking at women. That doesn't
    mean that I want them, or that I lust after them, It usually means
    that they are just lovely. Unfortunately they do get offended.
    It seems so unfair that women who look so good can get so upset
    just because I find them extremely attractive and cannot take my
    eyes off them. Why do they make themselves look so good if it's
    such a problem to them.  
    Being a girl watcher all my life (I started appreciating pretty girls
    in the first grade) has had many advantages. All the extraverted
    women appreciate being boldly admired. Those are the type I admire
    the most. They know what thay want, what thay are, and how to go
    about getting almost everything in life. The shy, demure types,
    who seem flustered by the attention can just stay that way. They
    don't interrest me at all, no matter how gorgious they are.      
     
    In conclusion, for all of you women out there, if you don't want
    men looking at you, just be a slob, and we wont. But if you plan
    to dress nice, wear your hair in a flattering style and keep your
    figure trim, then be prepared, because we are out there, and we
    wont stop looking as long as you're looking good.
    nice talking to you

    re .34
    Nice reply for a first-timer, Rich.  But, I have to disagree with
    "the only beautiful creations God made."  Have you ever studied an
    orchid?  Of course, this is my opinion.
                                            
    The line about introverted women
    (It) got me to thinking, its really hard to differentiate between
    a shy woman and a stuck-up woman.  I know of a couple of women who
    I really admire and I thought that they were stuck-up.  I later
    found out that they are just shy.  If you confront them (say "Hi")
    and they blush, they are shy.  If they get snotty, then they are 
    stuck-up.  I can overlook a woman's beauty if she is snotty.  The
    snot covers up the beauty.  (Did I say that?)
    
    Spence

    Re .34, you certainly don't seem to have much of an understanding
    for what makes women tick.  You might want to try reading Womannotes
    if you ever decide you'd like to know *why* some women sometimes
    react the way they do.
    
    Lorna
    
    
    P.S.  I'd like to know how some men would react if a woman put in
    a note saying, I only bother with outgoing, confident men who know
    how to get what they want in this world.  If that were the case
    I think a few male engineers would not have women in their lives!
    

re.36:

>    Re .34, you certainly don't seem to have much of an understanding
>    for what makes women tick.  You might want to try reading Womannotes
>    if you ever decide you'd like to know *why* some women sometimes
>    react the way they do.
    
I thought the only thing .34 was missing was the smiley face.

Dave.

P.S. You were joking, of course?

re.37:
    
    	I happened to know .34 personally. I don't think he was kidding.
    As a matter of fact, I KNOW he wasn't kidding.
    
    
    Steve        

    While I do not think of myself as the type that "ogles" women, I
    will admit to enjoying the scenery occasionally.  Once, at a folk
    festival, I was in line for some food when I began surreptitiously
    eyeing the delectable figure standing next to me.  She had on one
    of those tight fitting eyelet peasant blouses which showed off her
    bosom to best advantage.  When I finally worked my way up to her
    face, I discovered it was my wife.
    

    
    God! Slow down Spence!  I checked this notesfile two months ago
    and it was as dead as rotting wood.  Now it's kicked in with all
    this flammable stuff and I'm tail-ending again. ;^ )
    
    re: .4 - I can appreciate you having the sh*t scared out of you
    at times.  I know a guy who makes me very uncomfortable when he's
    switched on his girl watching mode, and I've even stepped several
    long strides away from him at times just to disassociate myself from
    having the poor lady think I'm a friend of this person.  When he
    looks at a women, I get scared!  He looks at attractive women with
    clenched jaws, and burning eyes that just about verbalizes a nasty
    "Drop the clothes babe, or I'll rape them off of you!"  And would
    you believe this person honestly believes that women go for this?
    He has a skewed macho-trait. "I" know how much a man he is though.
         Quite by accident (it's a small world), I met one of his
    conquests (girl will never be the same), and by asking me where
    I worked, asked if I knew this person who also works there.  Sure,
    says I.  Making a long story short, come to find out the "man" has
    to get under the sheets in a dark room before taking off his clothes.
    
         Some guys are good at making a woman feel flattered at the
    way they are being looked at, others are innocently gawking albeit
    appreciatively, however not aware that they are making that person
    uncomfortable, and others are just plain New York construction workers
    with an over-active libido.
    
    What category falls I?  Good at making them feel flattered with
    an over-active libido. ;^ >

>>    P.S.  I'd like to know how some men would react if a woman put in
>>    a note saying, I only bother with outgoing, confident men who know
>>    how to get what they want in this world.  If that were the case
>>    I think a few male engineers would not have women in their lives!
                
I'd react by saying she's talking in stereotypes.  Male engineer nerds with
glasses taped in the middle.  Annoyance is optional, though, since women exist
who don't share this attitude. 

Bruce Taylor
male engineer
not a cowboy truck driver construction worker cop

    I just found this note, so guess I, too, am tail-ending.
    
    For most of my life, I was EXTREMELY shy, and not very confident
    about myself, and the way I looked, etc.  Once I got to know someone,
    the first thing they would always say was, "Boy, I always thought
    you were a real snob!!"  I've worked hard to try and change that--I
    usually try to say "hi" to people, and be friendly.  But what sends
    me right back to the high school way of thinking is when I'm doing
    my daily walk, and a carload of guys (age doesn't seem to matter)
    goes by and hollers out something charming like, "Hey baby!  Great
    t*ts!"  If I'm in a crazy mood, I'll do something nutty like a 
    Carmen Miranda shimmy right there.  Usually I'll wish I was walking
    some place else..
    
    I'll talked with some men I like and respect about this phenomenon,
    and what I've heard is surprising to me.  Most say that they like,
    respect, and enjoy the women they know, and many have lots of women
    friends.  But when they go out with "the boys" it's almost a given
    that they will act this way.  I'm really not trying to sterotype
    here;  I really am trying to understand why this is.  I KNOW things
    won't change to the point where that same carload of guys will slow
    down, tip their baseball caps, and say, "Gosh, miss, what lovely
    sneakers you have on!  And I really like the way you've done your
    hair." :-)
    
    Not tryin' to flame--any answers will be appreciated,
    
    Jane
    

    re .42
    I've seen what you mentioned a lot of times.  I think its peer
    pressure.  Its expected of us to be animals when the pack is together.
    I've seen men who are very loving and affectionate around women
    and then turn into animals when they are with 'the boys'.  I've
    had it happen to me.  The other guys expect me to be an animal like
    they are and I don't like it.  I usually find other people to be
    friends with.  I suppose that it has something to do with being
    macho.  We are supposed to be hard, cold, uncaring and if we don't
    act that way, then we aren't *real* men.  With me, it comes down
    to "who would I rather impress, my wife or my friends".  My wife
    will *always* win out.
    
    Spence