Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    I don't know if it's tougher for teenage boys today or not, but
    the problem i had at that age is that I was looking for 'manhood'
    or to 'act manly', but i wasn't sure what i was looking for, it
    seemed like the critera for manhood kept changing - was i suppose
    to act tough, play sports, have a car, plenty or girlfriends or
    what...everytime i thought i had it figured out, it changed.  I
    think teenage boys are constantly trying to define their role. 
    It's probably more confusing today than it was then.

    Is it possible that there are more drugs involved today?  Boys are
    more susceptible to peer pressure than girls.  I read somewhere
    that drug usage sometimes leads to suicide.
    
    Spence
    

       With today's standards changing almost daily, it's difficult
    to tell where America's youths' minds are at.  Sure, there is peer
    pressure...there always has been.  Only now, there are different
    objects/things that one must do to "prove" oneself in the eyes of
    their peers.  There is also a drug problem these days...and yes,
    it might lead to suicide if the problem goes unchecked.  I can't
    really speak for the youth of America, but I can tell you my
    observations.  It seems to me that there is a healthy mixture of
    Brats and Angels every where.  I live near a youth learning center
    where the youth (mostly young males) learn (I assume) a trade. 
    Every time I drive by this place, these "educated" youth have this
    strange desire to step out in front of moving vehicles.  This does
    not a Brat make, but it does say something about where their heads
    are at, and it's not on safety.  These examples could go on and
    on, but the point I'm trying to make is that the responsibility lies
    with the parents to imprint values and morals to their offspring.
    If the parent lets the child go unchecked, then it's no wonder youth
    wants to walk out in front of speeding automobiles, do drugs, crime,
    or whatever.  The pressures are and always will be there, it's just
    a matter of parents wanting to take the effort to explain these
    things to the child, and letting the child see both the benefits
    and the side effects of his/her actions.
    
    					Phil
    

    My $.02:
    
    Re:  drug use and suicide:
    
    I think drug abuse may be more a symptom of a teen's low
    self-esteem (may be related to inability to fight peer
    pressure), rather than a cause for suicide. Kids turn
    to drugs for a number of reasons, and may be only
    one contributing factor to teen suicide.
    
    Any way you look at it, it's a sad situation,
    
    Richard

    Re .3, on parents.  No parent can totally control the type of person
    their child turns out to be.  Are you exactly (down to every
    like/dislike and attitude) what your parents would have picked for
    you?  Do you react to everything the way your parents would choose
    for you to react?  Or have you listened to everything your parents
    have had to say and decided some things for yourself?  Teenagers
    have minds of their own and it's unfair to just blame parents for
    everything they do.  I agree that some people have made a lousy
    job of being parents but it isn't always the answer to what teenagers
    are like, or the total answer.  The older teenagers get the less
    time they spend with parents and the more time they spend out in
    the world, too.  
    
    I seriously doubt that drugs play much of a part in high teenage
    suicides.  Why would somebody kill herself/himself just because
    he/she enjoys taking drugs?
    
    Maybe the world just seems to confusing to kids.  Maybe to some
    kids it seems too hard to make life worth living.  Maybe life just
    seems like a mess to them that they are afraid to deal with - drugs
    or no drugs.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    	This past week a 7th grader at a middle school near my home
    	hung himself in the rest room.  He had been sent to the principals
    	office for disciplinary measures, but never showed up there.
     	After about 1/2 hour they found him in the rest room.  This
    	has really shaken up the area where I live.  Our county has
    	had an increasing number of teensuicides over the past 3 years.
    	There were 4 teen suicides in 1986 and 3 suicides so far in
    	1987.  Being a single parent of 2 teenage girls this is scarey.
    	
    	However, I feel parents have a big part to play in helping
    	their teens face peer pressure and the pressures of school,	
    	working, preparing for college, etc.  Communication is a 
    	vital part!  When we heard the news about the suicide we 
    	spent a lot of time talking about why this might have happened,
    	whether or not this was a "good way out" of his problems, etc.
    
    	I don't think we can blame drugs, or alcohol or any one thing
    	on the cause of teen suicides.  It takes a lot of love, support
    	and understanding (and sometimes counseling) to help kids today
    	deal with the stress they have to face in life!
    
    	Myra
    

    
     Suicide is natures way of weeding out the weak willed and weak
    minded.
    
     prc

    
    	re: .8
    
    		Or maybe they are just scared (not necessarily weak!)
    	Or maybe they are in need of help and cannot get it!!  
    
    		I don't agree that everyone who commits suicide is 
    	weeak willed and weak minded.  
    
    		Another youth in a county jail faced with a prison
    	sentance killed himself recently.  He had talked earlier that
    	day with someone, telling them of his fear of what would happen
    	if he went to prison, etc.  
    
    		Seems to me we need to be more understanding......
    
    
    			Myra
    

    Combining .8 with .0, should one assume that the teenagers of today
    are more weak willed and weak minded than they were, say, 20 years
    ago?
    

    
      No, but there are more influences now to create that state than
    20 years ago.
    
      for example: the need of college now compared to 20 years ago,
    parents pressure for them to go...
    
      
      I a veteran of suicidal behavior. One of my very best childhood
    friends had a problem a long time ago and tried to kill himself
    numerous times...which I'm glad to say he's is better thanks to
    me and the church.
    
    
       prc
        
       

    I know that many of today's juveniles have a fatalistic outlook
    on life.  I have heard and read where some of them feel that there
    is no need to worry about the future, the BOMB will fall anyday.
    
    I have discussed this many times with my children.  I try to impress
    on them that tomorrow has ALWAYS come since time began.  To think
    that no planning is needed today because tomorrow WON'T come simply
    dooms tomorrow to be less than it can and should be. 
    
    I don't know where this attitude originated, but it exists and it
    is having a negative affect on some of our kids.  
    
    If only Ponce De Leon hadn't lost that darn map!
    
    Lee
    

    Lorna,
    
       I said that the parents should provide the input, and therefore
    let the child/teenager decide for him/herself what is wrong or right.
    I'm not putting the total blame on parents...I know that you have
    2 daughters yourself, but the parent is the childs main learning
    center in the arena of life, and it is their responsibility to at
    least try to imprint decent values on their children.
    
    					Phil
    

    re -1:
    
    Lorna's only got one daughter. (Hi Lorna!).
    
    When the child gets to be a preteen or so (like Lorna's daughter)
    the parent is most definitely not the "main learning center in the
    arena of life".  School, teachers, and peers are the main learning
    center at that point.
    
    	-Ellen

    re -.1:
    
    that's true. and how one reacts to these new external stimuli depends
    in large part on the values and sense of self that one developed
    during the "formative years."
    
    that's why i think that professional day care is such a risky venture.
    i don't deny that day care is sometimes necessary. i just think
    that when you send your child to day care, you shift the "main learning
    center in the arena of life" to an area outside of your control.
    
    /bruce

    I agree with you Bruce.  The "survival" traits that teenage boys 
    (and girls) need today that are not taught in school but are learned
    in the home are self-esteem, a strong sense of self worth, and good 
    judgement. 
    Mary

    Harken back to .0
    
    Listening to All Things Considered recently someone brought up the
    point that in today's american society there is no real coming of
    age.  There are no ceremonies, as in "ancient" cultures.  This could
    be one factor towards boys' confusion over when they become men.
    
    Derek

re: .17
>    point that in today's american society there is no real coming of
>    age.  There are no ceremonies, as in "ancient" cultures.  This could

Right!  About the closest you could come to a coming-of-age ceremony that
most people would agree upon is a college (or high school) graduation.
But think of how much later in life that takes place than the "ancient"
coming-of-age ceremonies used to (typically by age 14 or 15).

There have been other unofficial ceremonies that have been duly noted in
literary portrayals of coming-of-age in this century (getting a driver's
license, plus various more ribald occasions: first sexual encounter or
first experience of intoxication, etc.), but I think you'll find that
there is less and less agreement on what these informal markers are the
closer you get to the present.  The small-town America consensus (of
Ronald Reagan's youth, probably) has been fragmented beyond repair.

It makes it hard on young people, who are very anxious to get approval
from their fellow human beings (although many young people would probably
deny this--I used to!;-)).  Adults have no collective way of approving a
young person's majority.  The laws on the subject are dry and frequently
contradictory (old enough to be drafted but not old enough to vote,
remember?), so those have very little meaning for a young person.

I think this is one of the prime areas where our culture really falls
down on its face.  I'll bet it has a ripple effect into many other areas
that we discuss in this conference too.
							paul

    re .18  Very interesting...I agree.

I have the pleasure of being involved in the growing struggles of 
several teenage boys, and also had my own trials in the process. 
The contrast between their approach to rebellion and mine is 
dramatic.

Our backgrounds are remarkably similar. We all came from 
emotionally dysfunctional homes. Victims of victims. And I had a 
good home situation compared to that of . My 
parents were good providers and I'm sure had love in their 
hearts. But never in my 18 years of living at home did either 
parent pick me up, hug me, and say "I love you". I grew up in
an emotional vacuum.

My father was a sensitive and kindly person who never
communicated much of anything. He kept everything inside. My
mother had a subtly way of using critizism and ridicule to keep
people, especially her children, at a distance - and it worked.
The teenagers with whom I am dealing come from grossly
dysfunctional family fragments, with blatant physical and
emotional abuse, neglect, alcoholism. And their rebellion is
intense... and ultimately healthy. 

Toby, although having only 16 years old, in many ways has the 
life experience that many of us who are 40+ have never known. 
Drugs, 21 felonys on record, experimenting with his 
body and sexuality, self abuse, he has seen and felt it all. Yet 
now he coming out of the darkness and is experiencing his 
humanity. There is light and love in his eyes, he clearly and 
easily expresses his feelings, and has no illusions about his 
past experiences. He is now on a path of self-renewal, discovering 
self-love, and gradually becoming a whole person. He no longer 
needs the behaviors of rebellion.

In contrast, I kept my rebellion highly internalized, stuffing my
feelings into internal compartments of darkness, and used
critizism and ridicule to keep people at a distance emotionally.
It is amazing what we learn from our parents, even when we are
determined to be different than they were. I remember several key
experiences in by youth, had I freaked out, gone bizerk,
screamed, I might have broken the curse of non-communication and
gone beyond the boundaries of self. In externalizing my
rebellion, probably via some socially unacceptable means, I would
have been reaching out.. the vital first step toward recovery and
health. And now 30 years later, I am finally dealing
with the emotional stuff that, had I been outwardly rebellious
enough, I might have resolved long ago. 

We as parents, or in my case as a "substitute parent", become
upset or feel devastated when our teenagers get arrested, or
behave in an anti-social manner, or are impossible to live with.
And yet this can be a healthy first step toward reaching out...
better now than later. 

- benzo