Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    perhaps 76.0 should be better phrased as.. " how many white men
    would  uncomfortable e with a minority boss" ?
    
    I realize you didn't stop and think but the way you said that
    is offensive.
    
    All of which goes to show how easily even the best intentioned
    of us (myself included) can say something that can offend another
    not only without intending to but with the best of intentions.
    
    Bonnie

I'm little confused by this whole issue, especially since 75.0 got
deleted, which makes it pretty darn hard to figure out what all the
talk is about!

Racism does not seem like an out-of-line topic in MENNOTES to me,
however.  Maybe it could be discussed in its political and socio-
economic (blah-blah) angles better someplace else, but it surely
is an awful blight on the growth of men who are "in the minority",
so it seems worthy of discussion as an influence on our collective
male upbringing.  We seem to find time for some pretty silly issues
here, so why not allocate a little for one that has the grave
consequences that racism has on men who are unfortunate enough to be
on the short end of the stick?

I guess I don't understand the vehemence of the reaction against
this topic appearing either here or in HUMAN_RELATIONS.  Was the
original note overly intemperate in its language?  What's the scoop?

    The original topic was about racism in general, not pertaining to
    men's issues.  If 75.0 had been stated in a manner that was consistent
    with the MENNOTES content, then it might have gotten a different
    reception.  What Reagan and the KKK do to blacks isn't a MENNOTES
    topic.  It is the moderator's prerogative to do whatever they see 
    fit to preserve the integrity of their NOTES file.  Even newspapers
    don't print material that they don't consider fitting.  Call it
    censorship or squelching your freedom of speech if you wish, but
    if it doesn't belong, then it is rejected.  Nude pictures don't
    belong in the local newspaper, but they are right in place between
    the covers of Playboy.  If I sent a dirty joke to Reader's Digest,
    do you suppose that it would get printed?  I think not.  There are
    other magazines that would be more fitting for it.  And so it is
    with NOTES.  The topic belongs elsewhere.  If the topic
    were rewritten so as to be a concern of men's lives, it might fly.
    But not as a discussion of racism in general.
    
    Re .0                     
>    How many men would feel uncomfortable with a black boss?   
     
    Better stated, "Would you feel uncomfortable with a black boss?"  
    No I wouldn't.
    
>    How many men would protest if their daugther dated a member of a 
     different race?
    
    Better stated, "Would you protest...?"  It would depend on the race,
    and should we assume that women don't share that concern?
    
    If I wanted to discuss acid rain killing off the trout population,
    would this be an appropriate notes file for it?  Should we discuss
    pollution because it kills people?  It would be appropriate if it
    caused men's ears to fall off and not women's ears, but not just
    because it affects all people in general.  Racism affects all people,
    not just men, but if a specific racial problem exists which concerns
    men, then it might belong.  
    
    This note is destined to the same fate as 75.  If you can restate
    the topic so that it pertains to men's issues, then go for it,
    otherwise, you're flogging a deceased equine, as am I.  I will not
    reply to this issue further.  Its all semantics.
    
    Spence                                                   
                                               
    P.S. I am NOT a moderator and I apologize to the moderators for
    aiding in the continuance of this discussion.

	My boss is a little on the short side, but he is over eighteen, so
	he certainly has reached majority, I would probibly be uncomfortable
	reporting to somebody who was in minority, afterall who would be pleased
	about having to report to someone half their age?


Richard.

    re 3
    I expressed my opinion on write-locking the last note - if it's
    against the rules to express your opinion, then they can write lock
    this note too.  I don't care if people discuss this issue or not,
    i said it was the moderator's decision and i'll live with
    that...There'snot too many issues that are completely, totally related
    to men...equating discussing race in MENNOTES and nude pictures
    in the newspaper and dirty  jokes in Reader's Digest is an
    exaggeration.  All i know is, that i'am a man and race is a factor
    in some of the relationships in my life, i can't narrow it down
    any more than that.

    For what it's worth: 75.0 & .1 were deleted by the author, not the
    moderators. 
    
    - M

        The fact that racism is a topic of interest and concern to
        many people doesn't mean this is an appropriate forum for
        it.  I am a man, and the VMS development group's plans and
        schedules affect me.  Therefore we should discuss VMS
        development in MENNOTES.  You could argue like this all day,
        and it's just not productive.
        
        VMSNOTES is a conference devoted to a particular narrow topic:
        VMS.  MENNOTES is a conference devoted to a particular narrow
        topic: MEN.  If people wish to discuss racism, someone should
        create a conference devoted to *that* particular narrow topic.
        Otherwise we will have racism discussions in MENNOTES (because
        it affects men), in WOMANNOTES (it affects women!), in
        HUMAN_RELATIONS (it affects humans, too :-) ), in SOAPBOX (does
        racism affect soap? :-) ), maybe in DIGITAL... and who knows
        where else. 
        
        If racism is discussed in a single place, then everyone
        interested in discussing the subject will know exactly where
        to look, and all (well, knowing noters, the best we can say
        is "some") discussion pertaining to the subject will be there.
        You wouldn't miss 99% of the relevant discussion because
        you happen to read MENNOTES but not WOMANNOTES or
        HUMAN_RELATIONS.
        
        In other words: if you're serious about wanting to discuss
        the subject, volunteer to start a new notes conference.
        
        If you just want to doodle around and don't care if those
        interested can participate, go ahead and talk here... as a
        moderator *I* have no intention of preventing the discussion
        (though I won't claim to speak for the others). But you're
        missing most of your audience. 
        
        	/dave

    Just for the record: i'am not the one who started the last note
    I started this one to express an opinion about write-locking that
    note.

    
    	Somehow Dave, I can't see a new notes conference starting up
    everytime someone addresses a slightly different issue in one
    conference. But hey, it happens all the time. I do agree that a
    place such as SOAPBOX would appear to be a better fourm. Although
    Ron does have a point, but on the other hand the moderator does
    too, and hey, we're all titled to our own..
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    							    (^:
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    Sorry, lost my head.
    
    
    Todd

    Whoever is interested in discussing racism can look in WOMANNOTES.
    Someone has started a topic and the community is receptive to it
    (though there hasn't been much discussion yet).
    
    	-Ellen

    Hey hey - now I too am being called a Nazi moderator.  Move over,
    Jim Burrows!  I haven't had so much fun since my family escaped
    the gas chambers in the 1930s!
    
    I am trying to be serious - Bubba clearly does not want to.  He's
    taken his banner to WOMANNOTES - fine with me.  I'll be curious
    to see what relevance to women the discussion brings out.
    
    					Steve

    I bet I can guess the names of the non-contributors if there was a
    conference on RACISM.  I know their attitude, they are all for
    minorities as long as they dobn't tunr up in THEIR neighborhood. 
    
    - Vikas

re: .15
>-< Moderation courtesy the Gestapo. >-
...
>    conference, but they really don't want it discussed at all.  If
>    they were telling the truth, the Nazi tactics would not have been
    
Okay, if this was the tone of the original, I see why the vehemence
that I questioned in .2.  Implying that people are liars and Nazis
is not the way to argue a disagreement.  Doing it in a public forum
like NOTES is really asking for trouble.

    In a discussion of this type ,especially on this subject everyone
    needs to act as a moderator ,and act as if each word is a dangerous
    weapon . I suggest a 24 hr cooling off period.  
re:.19    
    The tone of the original note was not at all like 76.15
    I did not write it ,but I read it.
    
    Is it possible for this topic to be discussed in cold blood
    In the USA in 1987? perhaps not.
    
    That in itself may be a very important thing for us to understand
    about ourselves ,Black ,White,Female,Male,...whoever we are .
    
    My opinion....Topics,like anything else ,will live a natural life
    span dependent on their interest levels to generate interaction and 
    positive ,emphasise, positive contributions to the notes files.
    
    I suspect that entire conferences may have the same characteristics.
    and therefore be subject to the same lifecycles.
    I would like to see this conference stay around,regardless of whether
    it can tolerate a discussion on racism ,or not.
    (:-})
    
    Robin
    
    

    When Mike closed topic 75 he explicitly invited the discussion
    to move to TheNewSOAPBOX. Mike both hosts and moderates that
    conference. For someone to say, as .15 does, that he did not
    want the subject discussed at all is an outrageous and vicious
    lie.
    
    As a co-moderator of both this conference and TheNewSOAPBOX I
    am outraged. I support Mike and Steve totally in their feeling
    that there are other more appropriate conferences then this one
    to discuss racism. I believe, as I think they do, that it is a
    subject that deserves more exposure then it can and will receive
    in this conference. TheNewSOAPBOX has almost twice the number of
    regular readers then this conference. It also has a higher number
    of writers.
    
    			Alfred

        A new conference on RACISM would be ideal.  It could be
        announced in the ENET_CONFERENCES conference, and in
        EASYNOTES.LIS.  Any person interested in discussing the topic
        would be able to find the listing in one of these two places
        and could easily enter the discussion.  People who do not
        read MENNOTES, or WOMANNOTES, or SOAPBOX will *never know*
        about this discussion, if it occurs only there.
        
        Furthermore, people who are not interested in this discussion
        (and to imply that someone not interested in discussing racism
        must be racist is, to say the least, highly irresponsible!),
        but are interested in the specific topics of women or men
        will be able to satisfy themselves without sitting through
        the parallel discussions you wish to start.
        
        Shouting "racist" and "nazi" is absurd, and unsupportable. If I
        were not struggling hard to ignore the insults and remain civil,
        I would use much stronger words. Nobody ever said, or even
        *suggested*, that anyone couldn't or shouldn't discuss racism if
        they want to.  What we have suggested is very different: that
        this conference is not the best place to discuss it.
        
        Racism is a subject which would most likely be of interest
        to a very large number of people.  Why do you wish to hide
        the discussion from anyone outside the small clique of MENNOTES
        or WOMANNOTES (or even SOAPBOX) readers?
        
        	/dave

    How about boxer shorts vs. briefs - i'am a briefs man myself.

    This subject is receiving a better response in WOMANNOTES because
    the contributing readers equate it with women's suppression.  Men
    don't feel this type of suppression, therefore, it was misplaced
    here.  It is unfortunate that the people who want to discuss it
    so badly are not willing to create a home for it.  They (he?) think
    it is a very important issue, which it is, but are not willing to
    put forth the effort to do it right.  Let us all blame DEC and its
    management because they didn't have the foresight to generate a
    notes file just in case someone wanted to use it.  It is not up
    to the majority (whites) to open a conference for the discussion
    of the minorities.  If I started one, I think that the general feeling
    would be that I am trying to point out what is wrong with minorities.
    However, if a minority member started it, then it would seem that
    he/she is trying to educate the majority to their plight.  Which
    one would get a better response?  Should I have started the conference
    PARENTING?  I have no kids, I don't like kids, I would not be suited
    to moderate that conference.  I DO have a 4WD and I like 4 wheeling,
    I am trying to get a conference started on the subject.  Should
    I sit around and complain because someone else hasn't already started
    one?  Conferences arise from a need.  If you feel a need, then start
    one.
    
    Furthermore, how far would the discussion go?  As in WOMANNOTES,
    everyone agrees with everything that is said.  Nobody would dare
    to disagree or to come right out and say "I couldn't work for a
    black boss because blacks are inferior to me."  That would start
    a forest fire and possibly put the contributor's job in jeopardy.
    Both sides of the issue wouldn't be discussed.  I personally wouldn't
    want to take that chance, I like my job.  Would I be granted immunity
    for expressing my views?  That's why its a volatile subject, if
    you say the wrong thing, you are out a job.  I quit reading the
    NO_SMOKING notes file because every time a smoker would make a comment,
    the non-smokers jumped down his throat.  I think that a conference
    on minorities would turn out the same way.  I hope I'm wrong.
    
    Spence

    Re .23
    
>   How about boxer shorts vs. briefs - i'am a briefs man myself.

    There's already a discussion on men's underwear.

    A conference on minorities wouldn't be limited to just a discussion
    on racism, which you seem to assume - Minorities don't just sit
    around worrying about racism - such a conference would likely include
    discussions on fashion, sports, food, culture, in addition to more
    serious issues such as racism - if a woman came into this conference
    and said she thinks men are inferior and she wouldn't work for one,
    she'd catch some heat here, it wouldn't exactly be two-sided
    interaction going on.  The same would be true for a minority
    conference,it would be open to any intellugent, appropiate discussion,
    but if somebody came looking for a fight, they'd probably find one.
    From what i hear there are plans for such a conference to be created.
    I don't remember anybody blaming DEC or anybody else because it
    wasn't such a conference

    
    RE: .25  "under where?"
    
    I prefer briefs myself, but only if they're white.  Does that make
    me a racist?
    
    
    
    

    
    
                                   Enough.
    

    Re .26
    You are right, the conference would probably go as you stated, I'm
    sorry for my assumptions to the contrary.  This all started with
    a note titled "Racism" and I guess I got in a rut.  You made some
    very good points.  If and when the conference gets going, I'll be 
    interested to see how it goes.  I do sincerely hope it goes well.
    
    As to my comment about DECcies, I must admit that this was carried
    over from WOMANNOTES, a note from Vikas condemning all Digital
    employees for not already having a notes file for minorities.  He
    made it sound as if the white majority at DEC is suppressing the
    creation of such a notes file.
    
    Re .27
    That was uncalled for, don't you think?  Antagonistic, to say the
    least.  I, for one, would like to see it deleted.
    
    Re .28                                                             
    If your comment is in reference to .27, I agree.  Otherwise, we
    are evolving here, isn't that what was expected in the first place?
                                                                     
    Spence

    RE: .29
    
    It was just a plain observation.  I know better NOT to make any
    condemnation, even if I were to believe so.  I did not `make it sound
    as if the white majority at DEC is suppressing the creation of such a
    notes file'.  
    
    I do not engage in name calling except in one conference.  I have
    learnt long time ago that calling people names does not serve any
    purpose.  I only point our their behaviour as I see it and let them
    make their own conclusion as to how that behaviour appears to the other
    people. 

    When all white male jury hangs a black suspect, not only the jury has
    to be impartial; it also has to _appear_ impartial. 

    - Vikas

    re 29
    Thanks Spence.  10-4 on this topic for me.

    
                      Silence is golden, here.
                      Can we lock this up, Mr. Mod?
    

    I am the moderator of the new notes file GENRAL::4WD.  It was
    surprisingly easy to get it into existance.  If anyone wishes help
    in the creation of a conference, I will be happy to lend my experience
    in doing so.
    
    I was reluctant to enter this here, but due to the interest in the
    creation of a conference on minorities, I want to point out that
    its not hard to do.  I am not a system manager or anything, I am
    simply just an average Joe who happens to have a terminal and reads
    NOTES a lot.  
    
    If you would like to share my experience, send mail to GENRAL::FRASHER.
    Please do not reply here.
    
    Spence
    
    P.S. You may add GENRAL::4WD to your notebook by using KP7.