Conference quark::mennotes-v1

	If you'd have done that round here, you may not have survived
	to make a note of it!.......Mens Trousers indeed!

Richard.

    Spence,
       Ever consider becoming a fashion designer?? (^; (just kidding!)
    
    Bj

    What the heck is so important about what fabric your pants are made
    of?  I seriously doubt you can find a significant correlation to
    place of origin and pants style.  Here at ZK you can find the entire
    range, from cut-off shorts to a full suit.  I wear what I consider
    to be both comfortable (physical and emotionally) and suitable
    to the workplace.  Other people have other ideas on what's best
    for them. I'm glad that there is no attempt to enforce a dress code
    here.
    
    What are you trying to prove, anyway?  That wearing blue jeans is
    somehow a sign of virility?
    					Steve

    Steve,
    
    Right On!

      
       I'm starting in software support up in TWO and I plan to wear
    no-blue jeans. I have been an operator for a long time and have
    been wearing jeans for a while. Now that I have a Real job I am
    glad to dress nice, I'll even wear a tie if I have to (but not 
    tight) {gag...hack}
    
    Peter

Have you tried telling your fellow operators that they don't have 'Real jobs'?

    
     Well, they consider it one but I don't. The little knowledge
     I have of Computer Science makes operations quite monotonous.
   
     I would rather think and learn for a living...

    prc

    
      I am by no means putting down Operations, it is just that I like
    to do software not operations.
    
    8^)

>      I am by no means putting down Operations, it is just that I like
>    to do software not operations.


Yes you were, it's just you wont admit it.

    
      What the hell are you getting at Spence? In D.E.C. we all dress
    up or down depending on personal preference and/or to meet the
    requirements of our jobs. I work in Educational services in Marlboro
    (Mass.) and dress as I'm expected to by management. We are all
    representatives of this company and should drop personal preferences
    for the benefit of same.(concerning attire of course)
    When I was a tech in a manufacturing enviroment I wore jeans and
    flannel shirts in winter or jeans and t-shirts in summer. Anything
    dressier would have turned to sh*t in a day. What with cabling over
    and under systems, exposure to cleaners, head cleaning solutions
    etc...I do still wear jeans but rarely. Usually when I know I'll
    be spending the day out of site of customers or the like.
    Unfortunatly first impressions do count. 99% of the time I wear
    corduroys or cottons and 1% of the time I wear a suit. This is
    determined by the days schedule. I couldn't show up at a CSSE meeting
    dressed like I'd just cleaned the barn. 
    I think you'd be surprised at how most of us Digits dress out of
    the workplace. Even Ken Olson wears jeans when fishing. I've seen
    him in more casual garb one weekend at holiday time touring the
    Westminster facility. But I doubt he'd ever show up at a stockholders
    meeting dressed that way. Neither would you! 
    What the hell's the big deal over this anyway. One of the managers
    in this group wears jeans when fishing. When he's here he's got
    one of those "things" around his neck and dress pants and shirt.
    That's one of the requirements of his job! (Not fishing, though
    I'm sure he wouldn't object)
    
    Is it that important to you? How about skin color? Hair length?
    
    My lunch is over. I'll get back to you on this and maybe a few more
    later.
    
    
    Rob
    

    I didn't mean to step on any toes, I was simply pointing out the
    difference.  Its not a big deal to me, obviously it does get under
    YOUR skin for someone to bring it up.  If its a big deal to YOU,
    then OK, I won't be curious about it anymore, God knows I wouldn't
    want to piss anybody off just because I noticed that you don't wear
    blue jeans.  At first, I didn't understand what .1 meant:
>    	If you'd have done that round here, you may not have survived
>	to make a note of it!.......Mens Trousers indeed!
    but, thanks to all of you, I now realize that you are all very
    sensitive about anyone asking about what you wear and why.  So,
    I'll reverse the question "What's the big deal?"  I take a simple
    observation and you all think that I'm trying to justify my virility
    because I wear blue jeans?  If I were a millionaire, I would still
    wear blue jeans BECAUSE THEY ARE COMFORTABLE.  PERIOD.  Not because
    of some perverted notion that they make me virile.  The whole idea
    of blue jeans has been a stigma for years.  Even today, many bars
    and restaurants won't allow blue jeans, not dress pants, knits,
    or corduroys, but blue jeans.  This separates blue jeans from all
    other types of "Mens Trousers".  It was just a simple observation
    and I was curious why its so.  Of the few people who I asked 'why',
    no one was put off about it.  If you think that I put you down, then
    you have more problems than I care to address, but I WOULD like
    to know what in the hell made you think I was putting anyone down.
    If it weren't for the letters that I received from people who actually
    care about what I think, this would be my last entry into this
    notesfile. 
    
    How many of you responded to the note about your underwear?  I don't
    recall this much smoke in THAT topic.
    
    Have a nice day!!! >-|
    
    Spence

Hey Spence!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Don't leave just because some guy got out of bed the wrong side, at least 
that's the best explanation I can see!   ;-)



Jerry

    
    I re-read my response!
    I re-read your initial entry!
    
    RE:12
    I'm getting a round bed to avoid fallingoff the wrong end.
    
    Spence, don't split on my account! I should have proofed my reply
    before entering it and been a little more aware of what you were
    getting at. 
    I plead insanity! That time of the month, etc.....
    
    I'm not sensitive about attire. If you saw the way I dress you'd
    agree. Just plain sensitive, or grouchy sometimes. 
    I'm not going to remove my reply, partly cause I need a reminder
    to calm myself down befor opening my trap. And because if you hose
    down the hot-headed portions, you'll see I did respond to your initial
    inquiry. 
    I would have called you personally to ..gulp... apologize, but it's
    hard to talk with BOTH feet in my mouth.
    
    
    
    
                                              Rob Burton
    

    Comfort vs. Fashion:
    
          I always lose this battle...I would much rather prefer to be
       comfortable than to satisfy some bullsh*t fashion trends.  Now,
       on the other hand, if the job, area, co-workers, politics, or
       whatever required me to wear a nicer set of apparel, then sure,
       I'd do it.  I'm not saying that I dress shabbily, but I much
       prefer comfortable jeans/cords over poly plastic clothes.  Give
       me real cotton!
    
    					Phil
    

    re .14
    
      That's why us Supernauts do Support!
    
    
      p.s.  Even though it is not required, Supernauts "dress to kill"!
    
    Peter Cook

    OK.  I went back and reread everything.  
    .1 sort of threw me, I didn't really understand the message.
    .3 came on and really twisted my jaw.  From that point on, I guess
    I developed tunnel vision and everything after that point seemed
    like a dig.  In actuality, only .3, .4, and .10 were digs, but I
    assumed that everything in between was a dig, although they weren't
    even close.  I apologize for refering to 'you all' as being so
    sensitive. I now realize that it was a minority of replies that
    flamed.  Maybe I'm the one who's too sensitive.  It caught me by
    such total surprise that I reacted in anger.  Sorry.  I guess I'll
    stick around, there are too many interesting conferences going on
    to quit now.  And I'm really learning a lot.
    
    And now, on with the show.
    
    I like blue jeans because they are comfy and durable.  I tried a
    lot of different brands, Levi's, Wranglers, and such.  I found that
    they tend to shrink continuously and finally wind up too short.
    I found JC Penney's 'no-names' to be my best choice.  The size when
    I buy them is the size that they stay.  They always fit right. 
    I currently own about 12 pairs of them.  My wife prefers Levi's
    501 shrink-to-fit's.  They have button flies.  I hate button flies
    with a passion.  
          
    I once overheard a man addressing a new hire saying that the dress
    code for here is blue jeans and flannel shirts.  Interesting, though,
    was the fact that he wore a suit and tie.
    
    I don't like to dress up because I feel like I have to be extra
    careful not to get dirty.  If I can't get dirty, I can't have fun.
    Some of my job requires getting dirty.  If I get off of work and
    have a flat tire, I'm already dressed for the occasion.  I can go
    straight from work to fishing, too.  I don't have to worry about
    what to wear the next day, all of my jeans look the same.
    
    In Germany, it is considered chic to wear jeans.  Mostly because they
    cost a fortune.  But, they must be new, dark blue, not faded.  Just
    a little trivia.
    
    Spence

    RE .5, & .7, Peter, I don't think the type of pants you wear have
    much to do with "thinking and learning" which is why you say you
    are changing jobs.  Change your job, but why change your pants?
    You can think and learn in jeans just as well as "dressier" pants,
    in fact, maybe more so since you may be more comfortable.  Remember,
    what looks "nice" to you may not look the nicest to another person.
    AND, anything DEC will pay you for is a job.
    
    What kind of pants do you consider most suitable for drumming? :-)
    
    Lorna
    
       

    
    	I wear jeans.. I have 3-5 pairs of jeans! (3 pairs of 501's)
    	When I'm not wearing jeans I'm wearing another type of cotton
    	pants.. My style is laid back and relaxed. I like to be comfy
    	when I work. I DO dress up on occasion but only to break the
    	monotony.
    
    	Jeans, cotton pants, flannel shirts, sweatshirts in the winter.
    
    	Jeans, t-shirts, lightweight sports coats in the summer.
    
    							mike

	I wear some kind of jeans most of the time, but that is a function
	of my style/job, however I feel comfortable in my other trousers,
	if you are not then there is something wrong with your taylor.


Richard

    Re .21, I think the comment that if his other pants are not as
    comfortable as jeans, then there is something "wrong with his taylor",
    is nonsense.  I find jeans to be far more comfortable than dress
    slacks, dresses, or skirts, but that doesn't mean that the other
    clothes don't fit me right.  They just aren't as comfortable as
    jeans even though they fit!
    
    Lorna
    

	Is your discomfort physical, or psychological? The former can be
	sorted out by a taylor, the latter.....well I really don't know.


Richard.

    I wear jeans and oxford shirts almost exclusively (at work or away)
    and I'm a SW Eng. Supv.  Weekends, I can be talked into trading the
    oxford for a flannel, and I do keep a Pendleton in the office to
    wear in the lab. Before I worked for DEC (going on 10 years now)
    I was a consultant and previously a systems analyst/sales support
    type for the publishing industry - suit and tie all the time. I
    had enough. Besides, jeans and oxfords are more comfortable to me
    and I'm more productive when I'm comfortable. I have pretty much
    relegated the suit/tie/dress pants scene to weddings, funerals,
    trade shows, customer visits and a rare meeting or two in Maynard.
    (Oh, BTW, by "customer visits" I mean me on their site. If they
    come here, I'd prefer that they see me as I normally work.)
    
    -Jack
     
    

    
    re. Lorna
    
    
        BTW, I was just kidding at Rays.
    
    
        Us men with long hair find it most useful to dress nice. If
    one had long hair and dressed in jeans, wouldn't some people 
    instinctively form a bad opinion? Some do some don't, but I
    feel that dressing nice negates that a little.
    
      PRC

About being more comfortable in jeans...

I think alot of it has to do with the fact that jeans can be tossed in the 
wash very often, whereas "nice" slacks may have to be dry-cleaned or given 
some kind of special treatment.  In any case, I don't worry about ripping my 
jeans, or spilling some part of my lunch on them or getting them dirty.  
Jeans continue to look good even after they've faded from frequent washing, 
but "nice" slacks just look old and worn and out of shape.  Also, in the sort 
of weather we've been having, I won't wear anything but jeans, sweaters, and 
my high top sneakers.  Wearing "nice" slacks means wearing "nice" (skimpy 
little) shoes to go with them and that means wearing nylons or some other 
kind of flimsy stocking which won't keep my feet warm.  I can feel 
comfortable in my good clothes, but most of them are geared for warm weather: 
washable, and not exorbitantly expensive to replace (as woolens are).

CQ

    What's an "Oxford Shirt"?
    
    I don't like corduroy because the 'fuzzy stuff' rubs off on the
    front of the thighs.  They also sound funny when walking.
    BTW, corduroy pillows make head lines 8^)
    
    Nice polyester dress pants are cold in the winter and hot in the
    summer.  I wear cowboy boots with my suit, when I wear it.  I own
    a couple of nice poly pants that I wear square dancing in the spring
    and fall.
    
    I have a pair of Levi's and Dickeys that I wear square dancing.
    They are a lot like blue jeans but don't fade.  To me, they are
    dressy blue jeans (is there such a thing?)
    
    Today I am 'dressed up'.  I am wearing a pair of unfaded Wranglers
    that my wife gave me.  And a new flannel shirt.
    
    Around here, long hair and dressed-to-kill looks funny.  Long hair
    goes better with blue jeans.  Long hair and a suit will draw stares
    but long hair and blue jeans won't get a second glance.  To me,
    long hair is past the collar (my, how times change ;-).
    
    My wife won't wear dresses or skirts because they are uncomfortable
    and in blue jeans, she doesn't have to keep her knees pressed together.
    She likes tennis shoes and can't wear them with a skirt.  
    
    Spence
    

>>    What's an "Oxford Shirt"?
  
A cotten or cotten blend shirt.. woven material, button down collar and
double button cuff.. yoke at the back with a pleat down the center back..
very comfortable, wear well and fade well.

Usually made in soft pastels or white.

New England classics I might add!

    RE: Skirt and sneakers..
    
    	You really have to come to Boston. Women have been wearing sneakers
    and skirts together for a while now.. (at least to and from work)
    
    						mike

    polyester pants......... are you kidding, you go out on a sunny
    day and your talking spontaneous combustion.  stick with the all
    natural stuff....  COTTON
    
    Fra

    Re: .31
    
    I've been recently phasing out my polyester slacks for washable
    wool/poly blend slacks.  They look a LOT nicer than the all-poly,
    feel great and should last a lot longer.  I don't care for cotton
    because it always looks too casual.
    
    					Steve

    I'd forgotten about this note.  I wanted to reply to .30 after I'd
    had a chance to look around and talk.  The general concensus around
    here (Colorado) is that women don't wear tennis shoes with skirts
    except during lunch hour in the summer to walk around the building
    for exercise or fresh air.  All 3 of us agreed. 8-)
    
    I'm not sure I could handle Boston.  I'd have scars on my chin from
    my mouth dropping open. ;-)
    
    Spence

    Spence,
    
    I will explain to you why the Yuppies and Urbanites where sneakers.
    We need the traction for the "T".  Riding the green line can be
    an exercise of balance.  I try to see how long I can remain standing
    alone without holding on.  Great exercise, strengthens upper thighs
    sort of like bowling.
    
    The second reason is the dirt.  If we wear our sneakers we keep
    our high heels clean and attractive.  
    
    The funny part of it is some of the sneakers cost more than the
    high heels.  One does not wear Thom McCann sneakers in the city,
    Reebok is popular amongst others which I am not familiar.  
    
    The city is a great place and the mobility that sneakers provide
    has created a new fashion.  I have noticed some of the women from
    the country (Maynard) are now doing the same thing.  When you drive
    a car your right shoe gets worn right over the heel.  So wearing
    sneakers prevents this.
    
    Joyce

    re .34
    That makes sense.  But, I concede, what is a "T"?  Is that something
    like a balance bar in gymnastics?  And with a green line?  What?
    
    Spence

    Re: .35
    
    .34 is talking about subway trains.  "T" is the name given to the
    Boston subway system, "Green Line" is one of the routes.
    
    				Steve

    re 35:
    
    Try to get a trip to Maynard or something and check it out ;-)
    
    	-Ellen

    Oh, yeah, I see now.  Trying to stay on board without holding
    on for as long as possible, like they do on TV.  And traction to
    run and catch the subway.  It makes sense now, thanks.
    
    I once even actually saw and rode a subway.  It was in Paris.  It
    was a lot different from the ones on TV with all the graffiti and
    stuff.  It was very clean and the stations were really sharp looking.
    I felt safe in it.
    
    Thanks again,
    Spence
    
    P.S. We don't have 'em because they scare our horses. ;-)

    RE: .39  "Get Charlie off"
    
    
    
    
                     MTA = METROPOLITAN TRANSIT AUTHORITY
    
    
    
    
    
    

    RE: .39
    
    Bob,
    
    It is the Kennebunk Trolley Museum.
    Right off Rt.1
    
    JMP
    
    

    I've been thinking about this.  I've decided that I was thinking
    of a streetcar, re hanging onto the outside.  I don't think you
    can hang onto the outside of a subway, can you?  I think that she
    was saying that they stand in the aisle and try to keep from getting
    thrown against the back wall during acceleration, for as long as
    possible.
    
    Is this correct, or am I still confused?
    
    Spence
    
    P.S. Its a tangent, but this wasn't going anywhere anyway. ;-)

	What would be the feelings, of the folks, here towards men
	wearing shorts to work in the summer?

Richard.

    We would sure see a lot of hairy legs  ;-)
    
    kathie

    I'd never wear them to work. But I find shorts very uncomfortable
    unless I'm involved in some sports event (basketball or swimming).
    
    I don't see any reason to ban them though. Shorts or no more
    distracting then all sorts of other attire. Depending on who's
    wearing them they can be even less a distraction then 'regular'
    clothes. :-)
    
    		Alfred

    I wouldn't wear shorts to work because I don't like to show my legs
    except when wearing swimming attire.  Some kinda wierd modesty trip
    from my childhood.  It took about 11 years for my wife to get me
    to wear them when working in the yard.
    
    If other men wore them, I'd stare and chuckle inside until the novelty
    wore off.  See 'wierd trip' above.  I remember a time when 'real
    men don't wear shorts'.  That was the same time that 'real men don't
    wear white socks'.  Times change, so would I.
    
    BTW, I'd freeze to death at work.
    
    Spence

    Re: .44
    
    	I doubt very seriously that Digital will ever allow employees
    	to wear shorts to work.  In fact I still shudder when I think
    	of the uproar that was caused when security caught me puttering
    	around the Lab in my bikini briefs.
    
    	Jake

    Given that I seem to remember seeing people wearing shorts in
    ZKO two years ago, when did shorts become forbidden?
    
    		Alfred

    RE: .50
    
    	You ARE working too much Alfred. :-)
    
    	When I worked 2nd shift a while back I used to wear shorts all
    the time. Mostly when I was coming back from the beach. :-)  As
    for now, I wouldn't mind wearing shorts and I may when it gets warmer
    but that will be a judgement call.
    
    	Don't ever expect DEC to enforce a serious dress code. It's
    not the DEC way unless you are meeting with customers. 
    
    						mike

    
    	People still wear shorts, adn tongs here at ZK, only it seems
    	to be a little more comfortable in the summer.  I myself wear
    	shorts.  It is more comfortable, because the heat always seems
    	to be on in the summer....(or am I hot from working hard..8*)....
    	....no not me)....You just don't see women wearing shorts...I
    guess I might not get to much done....
    
    			Mike
    

    Gee, I don't think I've *ever* seen men or women in DEC, CXO, wearing
    shorts.  I wonder why.  Is ZK close to a beach or something?
    
    Hairy legs scare our horses!  (OK, I'll try to control myself in
    the future ;-)
    
    Spence

    Re: .54
    
    ZKO is at least an hour from any beach.  I really don't care for
    shorts - on myself or others - especially at work.  But it's not
    my place to tell others how they should dress.  If they feel
    comfortable in shorts and their management doesn't care, then
    I won't worry about it.  But you'll never see ME in shorts at
    work!
    					Steve

    A few times this past summer at LTN2 we were running under brown-out
    conditions and the choice was power for the computers and their air
    conditioning or power for lights and office air conditioning.
    
    It got kind of dim and hot.  T-shirts, strange Hawaiian shirts,
    and shorts were pretty much required survival clothes.  I can
    understand why some guys are not enthusiastic about showing their
    legs though.  Some real toothpicks with hair...
    
    /Dave
    
    
    

    "Dressed to Kill" ??  You ???????? Who dresses you in the morning now, 
    your mother ???

    All right, you guys are messing with my mind.  First the 'T', now
    speedos.  Let me quess, they're tennis shoes, right?  If that's
    all you wear, I can see why people notice. ;-)
    
    Spence

    Re: .59
    
    "Speedo" is a brand of swimsuit, typically the "racing" kind.
    
    				Steve

    
    
    	Also known as "Meat-hangers". They don't leave much to the
    imagination. (Or so my Mom told me when I wore them in H.S.)
    
    							mike

    Shorts are "no-problem" in the mill.  I habitually wear them in
    the summer.  My theory is that DEC hired me for what is above my
    chin, not below.
    
    /s/ Jim Williams