Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    Connected with .0, "Unemployed people are twice as likely to suffer
    from mental illness as those in jobs and the most vulnerable group
    is comprised of middle-aged men with children and financial
    commitments....factors involved are... the work ethic, financial
    strain, being male, middle aged and working class..." Report from
    a Medical council report in 1977.

	This statistic might have another cause: men are more likely
	than women to use more violent (and therefore more effective)
	means of committing suicide. I believe the most common suicide
	weapon for men is a gun, whereas women most often turn to
	pills.
	
	Mike

    Could it be that sexism enters even in death? Meaning it's OK for
    a woman to "attempt" suicide and fail and thereby get help...but
    if a man fails at it he is just showing what a failure he is in
    general.
    
    It might be interesting to see why the suicide was attempted compared
    to sex and the means used. Do men attempt to kill themselves for
    different reasons than women? Liesl

    My reading of the situation is that men are motivated to eat guns
    for reasons of economics and esteem jeopardy. Women, so far as I
    have assessed from news articles and the like, have more of a mot-
    ivation from romantic reasons and depression. Kindly explain how
    this could possibly involve sexism merely because a phenomena is
    noted to differ between males and females. You appear to be defending 
    the same low ground as the Church defended in procesuting Galileo.

    It is a fact that more women attempt suicide than men, however more
    men suicide than women.

    I believe that for most women it is more of a communication method
    (albeit drastic). Men do not reveal inner feelings easily and by
    the time action is called for they literally boil over, out of control.
    It is easier to do the job right under that circumstance because
    no other alternatives look likely. Women tend to let their feelings
    out more and a suicide attempt is equivalent to hitting the mule
    with a 2x4 to get its attention. Then the problem can get worked.
    
    A bit simplistic to throw such an analysis into 7 lines but I think
    it is fairly close.
    
    D

If you believe all those "Country", Farm Aid, etc., type movies,
men have to do the job right so's the widow can collect the
insurance policy, qualify for the gov't. pension, and save the
farm, etc.  Nice tries don't get that job done.

So I get the feeling there's an economic rationale going on in
some men's minds.  What I don't get is the ones who shoot their
kids as part of the deal, as if their kids' lives wouldn't be
worth living without Dad around.  I don't mean to trivialize
the fathers' anguish, but how do they reach THAT conclusion?

    My impression is that women are more willing to ask for help,
    will continue a fight after it looks hopeless where as men
    give up after they reach a certain point of pressure and refuse
    to see that someone indeed could help if they would just ask.
    It would be an admission of defeat and weakness.(bs)
    Now, these are generalities,,,,more stuff I heard murmered about
    whilst working in a hospital.
    
    vivian

     I'm not sure why the person who brought this up did just that.
    It seems that may be you just had a friend commit suicide and you
    have a lot of questions about it.  I understand what you are going
    through if this is the case.  I had a Brother in my fraternity commit
    suicide Less than a year ago.  (For anybody who would like to know
    how, which seems to be what this topic is about,  He stuck a .357
    in his mouth and pulled the trigger. )  I would just like to say
    that after going through this expereince I have learned a lot. 
      What happens to you (and the surviors are often the people who
    are the victims, not the person who did it) is first you ask one
    big Question:
       Why did they do it?
       The answer is pretty simple.  It is simple but it is hard as
    hell to accept.  The answer is you'll never know  why.  Everyone
    and their brother will come up with a reason but you'll never
    know which one if any of these is right.  If they leave a 
    suicide note you really can not trust what they say in there because
    if they are sick enough to kill them selves then they are not health
    enough to give the reason.
      What happens second to you often depends on you.  But what you
    are going to have to eventually do is accept that it happened. 
    This is not easy.  As a matter of fact it is hard as hell.  I'm
    still not sure if I have accepted what happened even now.
      If you know someone who goes through this experence you should
    do all you can to support this person.  Because what helped me the
    most when I went through it was the support of my family and friends.
                                                        
    
      
       

	How does Robert Macfarlane's attempted suicide fit in?
	
	I seriously doubt he was looking for attention (his problem
	being he had too much of it) - he was discouraged over the
	differences between his story and the White House's, and felt
	he was being set up as a scapegoat. So based on our discussion
	so far, one would expect he would make damned sure he got the
	job done (i.e., gun in the mouth). But instead he chose to OD
	on Valium, which actually would virtually guarantee he
	wouldn't die (Valium alone in any amount won't kill you,
	although in combination with alcohol or certain other drugs
	it'll do the job). Presumably he assumed if he took enough
	Valium he would die, but the fact remains that ODing on pills
	is not a high-percentage way to kill oneself, there is plenty
	of opportunity for medical help before it's too late.
	
	My conclusion? Every case is unique, we can't generalize...
	
	Mike

    If what Mr. McFarlane wanted was to elicit sympathy and to reduce
    his role as a scapegoat, then his actions were well reasoned and
    probably somewhat effective.

           	Women can't do anything right.........

    re: .15     
    
    I sure hope that comment is coming from another women and not
    a man.
    
    I think that anyone who attempts or succeeds in suicide is in
    there own way looking for some kind of attention.  The ones who
    do succeed might believe that no one really cares and the attempts
    might be trying to tell someone in there own way they need help.

    Jaw
    

    
    RE: 12  a good description of what happens to a person who is left
            behind by someone committing suicide.  I had a chance to
            read the note he left but due to certain circumstances couldn't.
            At this point (almost 6 years later) I'm glad I didn't...
            
            My 2 cents worth???  I think it has alot to do with the
            "male image" issue.  If a man were to try suicide and fail
            he might be questioned as to his manhood etc.  Or the fact
            that he ask for help might be considered odd or weak.  Some
            people think these qualities don't apply to men.  But my
            question is...If they don't succeed they're weak but if
            they do succeed they're heroes or good men and the fact
            that they died by their own hand is hardly ever referred
            to...???   

    I am going to try to keep myself from flaming, but it's going to
    be difficult.  
    
    The reason I feel I know more about this than most who have replied is
    that I tried to kill myself and obviously did not succeed.  I did not
    think then that I was doing it for attention, and in looking back I
    still don't think I did it for attention. I did it to bring my life and
    all my problems to a screeching halt. Things had gotten out of control,
    too much drugs, too much work, too many rules to follow, too many
    family problems.  Everything had snowballed until the only solution I
    saw was to either run away or kill myself.  I knew if I ran away, I
    would probably be back in a week, and things would be even worse than
    before (now this would have been a good way to get attention). So I
    decided to do something that I couldn't chicken out on, once I was dead
    there was no coming back. 
    
    Maybe the reason you think all attempted suicides are for attention
    are because of:
    
    1> Someone who tries to committ suicide gets attention.  Of course
    that's going to happen, are you going to ignore someone you care
    about who tried to end it all?
    
    2> Anyone who didn't succeed didn't really mean it.  I have to use
    myself as an example without going into detail.  I researched this, I
    found out the best way to slash one's wrists, how much of what drug
    will be lethel, etc.  I just didn't follow directions too well.
    (What's new? ;-) 

    3> A person who leaves a note is giving everyone a chance to stop
    the attempt.  I didn't leave a note, so I can't say for sure.  I
    would think that most people want their death to have some meaning,
    what better way than to put that meaning in your own words?
    
    I can't condemn people for killing themselves, or trying and not
    succeeding.  My attempt and failure surprisingly did what I had
    intended to do in the first place.  It brought my life to a screeching
    halt.  All the problems I had seemed unimportant while I was
    recovering.  All the pressures had gone for some reason, even though
    the problems were still there.  I guess you could say it put everything
    in its proper perspective.  I have never felt the need to do it since. 
    
    Suicide is something many people condemn, many people are uncomfortable
    with, and many people can't relate to.  I hope this has cleared up some
    misconceptions. 
    
    

    re .18:
    
    Thank you.  Nobody can really understand what one goes though during
    a suicide attempt, and if it was for attention only or a real attempt
    to kill themself, unless they have tried it themselves.
    
    I don't want to get into this too much but aren't you glad you didn't
    succeed?  Glad to know that you too recovered.
    
      

Committing suicide is a cheap shot at getting attention and filling
others with sorrow. I've been on the receiving end of a suicide and
though it's many years later, I still feel the resentment and hurt
that this person chose suicide instead of facing up to life and it's
realities. This person was a man (actually looking back I should say
adolescent because we were sixteen years old). I received a last
note implying that it was my fault because I had broken off a 
teenage romance. Through the years I've been able to realize that the
fault was not mine. That he was unstable and did not have the ability
to cope with life, but when it happened I was overwhelmed with guilt.
The question I asked myself over and over was "Did he really mean
to kill himself, did he believe someone would find him in time" ?

My biggest mistake was in keeping it all to myself and not sharing
the note and the emotions that overcame me with my parents and
friends. 

There has been an increasing amount of teenage suicides these days
and my heart goes out to the people who knew and loved these
young men and women. I feel there should be a lot more education
for parents to learn about teenage suicides, and to be able to
spot the behavior patterns.

kathie

    

	RE: .20  Wait a minute!

	Not *all* suicides are flagrant attempts to demand attention and/or
	make someone feel guilty.  Granted, some are - especially those such
	as you've been through where casting blame was one of the motives.

	As .18 pointed out, though, suicide is primarily an attempt to
	find a way out of situation that has become personally unbearable,
	where other ways out seem impossible (or have already failed).
	It's usually not the only solution the person has thought of, but
	the only one that would seem to solve the problem "permanently".  

	It can also be a final admission of failure, where everything else
	appears to have failed or to be going wrong.  Persons suffering from
	(clinical) severe depression often seriously consider suicide at some
	point.  Some wouldn't believe that there *was* anyone who'd feel
	guilty (as in nobody cares if I live, so why bother?).

	Yes, any suicide is awful for those around the person.   You've had
	a particularly nasty association with one, but please don't attribute 
	his guilt-trip motives to all suicides.

		Helen

	NOTE: I'm not saying suicide's a good or even reasonable solution in
	any of these cases - only that it *appears* that way to the person!
	People who seriously consider suicide often have other emotional
	problems that are interfering with rational analysis of the problem
	or of their options.  They need help, but may not know and/or want it.

	BTW, how do other noters feel about "suicide" anticipating the end of a 
	terminal disease?  (especially one which is debilitating and/or 
	extremely painful at the end).  Cancer?  AIDS?  Does the disease
	make a difference?  

    Helen,
    
    As far as dealing with the end of a terminally painful disease,
    I think that the options should be more flexible than they are.
    Certainly people have the right to have a request for no heroic
    measures to be honored. I have a great deal of compassion for people
    who are in serious pain at the end of a long terminal illness. I
    don't think others should have the right to deny them a dignified
    death if that is what they desire.
    
    Bonnie