Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    Wendy reckons it demonstrates that women are realists, men are hopless.
    
    

    That was meant to be "hopeless romantics" but, um, I got distracted... 

    And I thought this was a serious note.
    
    - M

When I was between 8-11 years old I noticed amongst my friends the following
pattern;

If two boys had an argument (and sometimes fisty-cuffs) they soon made up
after the fight and were friends agian.
If two girls had an argument it became a long term feud between the two and
their friends.

There were exceptions to this pattern but not many.

The question's are, is this a general pattern amongst girls and boys?
If others (thats you!) have observed this pattern, has it been carried
into adult behaviour and male/female relations?

I think so to some extent but maturity of the individual and a softening
of attitudes that comes with this means most of us meet on some middle
ground.

Dave.

    It IS a serious note!

        re .6
        
        You had friends?
        
        q
        

re .8:
        
>        You had friends?
        
Ok, they were acquaintances. I can dream can't I?

Dave.

    re .6
    I agree.  A good example is dumper vs. dumpee...  I have been dumped
    several times and did not bear a grudge.  The last time I dumped a
    woman she moved in with someone else within two days so the question
    of a grudge did not arise.  It seems that they hit it off quickly
    and I was fortunately soon forgotten.  The previous time the girl
    hated me for about a year and talked to lots of other girls about how
    horrible I was.  (This was a few years ago.)

    SDC.

    	I cannot comment on why women would end a courting replationship
    with men more often than a men with women, but I would like to comment
    on the divorce statistics.
    	If a man and a woman are married and have kids, he does not
    have the same options she does.  He may no longer love his wife,
    but he may love his children very much and want to continue living
    with them.  To divorce his wife generally means giving up this
    pleasure, and to many men this is unaccpetable.  On the other hand,
    if a woman with children divorces her husband, she can continue
    living with her children whom she loves.  So she walks out when
    she no longer loves him, but he hangs in there till the children
    are grown, and by then either his feelings have changed or he doesn't
    want to pay the financial penalty leaving his wife would cost.
    	Take it from a man who has children and went through a divorce,
    this is no easy step.  Also, everyone except your closest friends
    thinks that a man divorcing his wife who also has children is 
    a sleeze, and will treat you that way.  The pressure is enormous
    and I don't thinks many would fight it.  Plus, somehow you are seen
    as abandoning your children, inspite of the fact that you may even
    have joint custody.  Everyone quotes the statistics of the number
    of men who have left their wife and now fails to support the kids,
    and look askance at any claim you submit that you will not do this.
    
    DRC

    i would like to think that it is just as hard on both parties...
    
    eagle(steve)...	that is a very sexist remark. for any relationship
    to work everyone knows that you need outside interests to keep the
    relationship alive
    
    			kelly

Check out _The_Future_of_Marriage_, by Jesse Bernard.  The upshot is that men
 generally come out way ahead in a traditional relationship, in terms of con-
  trol over their lives.
   <_Jym_>

    I agree with .14.  Marriage is usually (yes, yes I know there are
    exceptions, I just don't personally know of any) more work for a
    woman than a man.  I mean this in terms of housework, planning social
    things, errands, making arrangements, and keeping everyone emotionally
    healthy, etc.
    
    So, for a woman the time to leave is when the work she is doing
    adds up to more than she is getting for the relationship - i.e.
    when she starts to think "it would be less effort and trouble without
    him."        
    
    No relationship is 50/50, but it can't be 20/80 for very long
    and survive either.  And don't undervalue the effect of a woman being
    able to support herself!  When the man made the money and the woman
    did all the housework, that was a 50/50 relationship - sort of.
    Why would a woman today with a good job also want to do all of the
    housework when simply getting rid of the man means she will have
    to do less housework?  (Extend "housework" to include all the things
    mentioned in the first para.)
    
    Sally
    

SPMFG1::CHARBONND "Shakin' the bush, boss"           27 lines  29-JAN-1987 10:41

    Has anyone here read "How I Found Freedom In An Unfree World"
    by Harry Browne. It was published about ten years ago. In the
    chapters on relationships, esp. romantic ones, he offers some
    excellent alternatives to the traditional ways of doing busi-
    ness in a marriage. He stresses that marriage , or any other
    relationship, is a contractual relationship, and contracts are
    subject to negotiation. Perhaps too many people don't take time
    to examine the standard forms and see if their needs would be
    better served by alternative "deals". The traditional forms of
    marriage have very specific assumptions and liabilities, and 
    oftentimes "aren't what I bargained for."  Truth is, too many
    people don't bargain with their eyes open.
    
       Back to the original question, maybe women are more used to
    shopping, and are quicker to go to the next "store" ?

>       Back to the original question, maybe women are more used to
>    shopping, and are quicker to go to the next "store" ?

re: .18
>    than "sexist" and admit also that humor may disquise prejudiced
>    male attitudes toward women.

Seems to me that there're some theories that hold that humor is
always based in disguised hostility or malice.  Maybe it's one of
those "civilizing" behaviors (like etiquette) that's intended to
prevent full-scale hostilities from breaking out.

    
    
    	Hi,
    
    	On the stats that were presented that 75 % of the women instigated
    it, I might tend to disagree.  Stats don't lie, but underlying them
    and looking at reason.
    
    I for one, do not like to end a relationship, even if I want to.
    So what do I do ?  I start changing becoming someone different.
    Have you heard other people say, "He isn't like he used to be"
    Maybe he doesn't want in on the relationship, but can't be "mature"
    enough (yes I fell in this category once, but I was only 22) to
    stop it himself, so by changing oneself, and the other partner
    doesn't like it, puts an end to it. so to some it up:
    
    
    	"A" wants out.  "A" doesn't want to tell "B".
    	"A" changes, becomes a real A-hole.  "B" doesn't like it.
    	"B" decides..."A" take a flying.....
    
    	B ended it, and is really pissed at "A".  "A" is relieved.
    
    	Now, my mother picked up on this with me.  She straightened
    my ass right out.  I called her, told her I wa coming over (long
    distance affair..I never saw her during the week) She knew something
    was wrong for me too come down.  I broke the news, telling her that
    we couldn't continue.  I was pretty upset for a couple days, not
    because I no longer had her, but because I stilled cared enough
    that I hurt her....
    
    
    		end of story....
    
    			Mike
    

    
         Well, as a case in point.  I am having a very difficult time
    performing what I know is inevitable - the breakup.  I value my
    partner for many physical and personality traits, but her one big
    flaw is killing the union.  Her maturity is far beneath her years.
     Our mutual friends are constantly asking me why I don't leave her,
    and I can only say that I don't know.  It is indeed difficult for
    men.  As the kind of person I consider myself to be (nice guy),
    I find it nearly impossible to deliberately hurt someone who loves
    me.  
    
         What I'd like to know is if women find it easier to do what
    must be done.  I know women who do not think twice about cutting
    off what appears to me to be strong relationships.  Is this an
    attribute peculiar to these particular two women or is the entire
    gender less sentimental.  I suspect that, like most things, it depends
    on the individual rather than the gender, but I would like to hear
    commentary on this.
    
                                    Suffering Succotash
    

    In McCall's magazine this month there is an article titled 
    "Why Men Divorce". It was the results of interviews with 400
    divorced men on why they thought their marriages had failed.
    
    What almost every man cited as decisive to the failure of their
    marriage was lack of companionship. They felt that their marriages
    had fallen apart because they had stopped being friends with
    their wives. All of them had had problems in areas like s*x or
    money, or children but they didn't feel these problems *caused*
    the break up.
    
    The article went on to say that many couples had communication
    problems because men and women have different styles of communication.
    That women tend to sit down and talk out issues while men find 
    communications about problems and feelings arise more naturally
    out of sharing activites together.
    
    The article concluded that the following ideas would make divorces
    less likely -
    
    1. Let communications grow out of doing things together rather than
    making a formal time to talk.
    
    2. Do things together, try to find something to do that you both
    enjoy every day.
    
    3. Laugh together.
    

    re .21
    
    I believethat willingness to make a break is indeed an individual
    thing and is not gender related. 
    
    Until I read these notes I would have said that men find it
    easier than women to break up and are less apt to want to work
    on a relationship once it started to have problems. This is
    because that was what my experiences had been. I can recall
    more than one relationship when efforts I made to try and
    deal with problems served only to accelerate the end.

    I once had a girlfriend in '69.  We did everything together and
    I later realized that she was my first true love.  One day, without
    warning, she refused to talk to me, to see me, and avoided any contact
    with me.  She never gave me a reason.  It haunted me for 15 years
    and still bothers me from time to time.  I still wonder why she
    did it.  It still hurts after 18 years.
    
    If you have to break up, at least do it cleanly.

    re .25
    Any time a relationship ends with one party just cutting the other
    off it hurts. Any breakup is painful, but there seems to be something
    about never having had a chance to address what went wrong that
    makes that kind of ending haunt you. Subsequent relationships may
    affirm that you are a lovable worthwhile person but I think you
    may always wonder just what happened. I have one such, that happened
    many years ago, I still think about from time to time also. 

    One result of that experience is that I've encouraged my teenagers
    to let others know what is going one when they feel that they want
    to end a relationship.

    re .25
    
    Yes, do it cleanly.  Say you are dumping me (even "chemistry" is
    an okay excuse) and don't try to avoid hurting me.  Rejection is
    cope; not knowing is h***.
    
    One woman's view...
    
    Lee

    A topic that has been at rest for awhile but I promised a male 
    friend I would read it to see if it is in fact true.
    
    re .21
    
    Boy your story really hit home.  I would recommended that you 
    be honest and explain your true feelings.  I have just broken
    up with my *so* because of this same problem.  He has a girlfriend,
    for quite a while, and she has mentioned suicide on several occasions
    when he tells her he does not love her and so on...  
    
    Since the second week of January he has had a ruff idea of my true
    feelings.  He did nothing then and has done nothing in the last
    two weeks of the ultimatum.  Because he is afraid of what she will
    do, mind you he is not happy at all, he remains with her and has
    lost me for good.  He needs more time...
    
    The truth has and always will hurt but, from experience, only the
    strong survive.  We all have to live our own lives and be happy.
    
    Last but not least, unfortunatley at this time it has been a lot
    easier than I thought.  I will never know how it is for him.
    
    Jude
    
    
    

    J'ai eu souvent a souffrir de la passivite et de l'inertie masculine.
    
    Lorsque rien ne va plus, lorsque TOUT montre qu'il est temps d'en
    finir, et meme lorsque leur amour pour nous est fini, les garcons
    s'accrochent, s'aggrippent desesperement par peur de l'echec, par
    peur de se retrouver seul, par peur de voir et de vivre la realite
    en face. Ils preferent fermer les yeux, serrer fort les poings,
    et se dire que tant qu'on est ensemble, c'est que tout va bien.
    
    CHAQUE fois qu'une relation s'est terminee, c'est moi qui ai du
    pousser le garcon a avouer qu'il avait envie d'arreter. CHAQUE fois,
    c'est moi qui ai du dire : "Ecoute, ca ne va manifestement pas,
    explique-toi, crache le morceau et arrete de me regarder avec cet
    air miserable" ou "Il est temps de prendre une decision, je vois"
    ou "Tu ne m'aimes pas, tu t'en fous, rien ne va plus, je m'en vais
    et salut !".
    
    Mon ami actuel n'etait pas amoureux de son ancienne amie; il n'empeche
    qu'il a fallu qu'il sorte avec moi, qu'il soit sur que c'etait du
    serieux entre nous pour enfin se separer de l'autre. Il preferait
    rester avec une fille qu'il n'aimait pas plutot que se retrouver
    seul. Il n'y a vraiment pas de quoi etre fier.
    
    Je pense que les femmes sont non seulement plus realistes, mais
    qu'elles sont plus "honnetes" vis-a-vis de leur partenaire et vis-a-vis
    d'elles-memes dans leurs relations; peut-etre acceptent-elles moins
    facilement une situation desequilibree et non-equilibrante...

    
    

     re .29:
     
     Indeed, et Bof a toi.  
     
     You've had a succession of losers and hangers-on as beaux, people who
     for one reason or another seem totally unable to cope with the
     prospect (or reality) of living by themselves.  Est-ce que ca nous
     renseigne plus des hommes en general, ou plus des hommes avec qui tu
     te trouve confortable?
     
     --Mr Topaz

    Quote (sort of, very liberal translation):
    
    				-< Huh >-
    
    
    I've often suffered from men's passivity and inertia. 

    When it isn't working anymore, when EVERYTHING shows that it's time to
    quit, and even when their love for us is gone, boys cling, clutch
    desperately in fear of failure, in fear of being alone again, in fear
    of facing and living [with] the reality in front of them.  They prefer
    to close their eyes, clench their fists, and tell themselves that as
    long as the couple is still together everything's all right. 

    EVERY time a relationship [of mine] ends, it's me who has had to push
    the boy into saying that he wanted to end it.  EVERY time, it's me who
    has had to say: "listen, this *really* isn't working, explain yourself,
    spit it out and stop looking at me like that [literally, with that
    miserable air]" or "it's time to make a decision, i see" or "you don't
    love me, you don't give a damn, nothing's working anymore, I'm getting
    out of here, bye !" 

    My actual boyfriend wasn't in love with his old girlfriend [me]; that
    didn't stop the fact that he still had to go out with me, that surely
    it had to be serious for him to finally leave.  He preferred to stay
    with one girl he didn't really love than to be alone again.  It's not
    really something to be proud of. 
    
    I think women are not only more realistic, but they are more "honest"
    with their partners and with themselves in their relations; maybe women
    find it less easy to accept a bad situation that is off-balanced and
    unbalancing... 
    
    
End quote

    RE: .31
    
    Merci beaucoup pour la traduction, ca traduit bien mes pensees;
    Mais :

>   My actual boyfriend wasn't in love with his old girlfriend [me]; 
    
    My actual boyfriend wasn't in love with his old girlfriend [ NOT
    me !! the old one !]

>   								   that
>   didn't stop the fact that he still had to go out with me, that surely
>   it had to be serious for him to finally leave.

    En mauvais anglais : He stayed with her until he was sure that our
    [he and me] relationship was serious. Then he left his old girlfriend.
    
    
RE: .30 
    
    Inutile de prendre cela pour une attaque personnelle. J'ai connu
    des garcons de tous les genres, de tous les milieux, et tous de
    caracteres differents. J'ai parle de mon experience de la chose
    afin d'essayer de faire comprendre que les femmes ne sont pas
    d'affreuses garces qui jettent les garcons au bout d'un certain
    temps comme un vieux chiffon use :-), mais que lorsqu'une situation
    devient catastrophique, la femme prendra moins difficilement la
    decision de tout arreter que l'homme, lequel construit toujours
    beaucoup, beaucoup de choses autour d'une relation. Mon but n'etait
    pas de taper sur qui que ce soit. 
    
    D'accord, je suis jeune, je ne sais pas de quoi je parle. OK papa,
    je me tais... :-)

    
    
    Zoziau-petit-oiseau-d'a-peine-vingt-ans

    [note: I think we were all a bit reluctant to try translating this
    one as it's loaded with jargon-y phrases...]
    
-1 starts wth corrections to my last translation.  Since that is mostly
    english, I'll skip to ...
        
RE: .30 
    
    Useless to take that for a personal attack.  I have known guys of
    all sorts, classes, and all sorts of different characters.  I spoke
    of my experience on this with the goal of trying to make [you, y'all]
    understand that women are not frightful [basic evil people, I think]
    who get rid of guys once hey reach a certain point, like a used
    rag :) [v liberal translation], but once a situation becomes
    catastrophic, the women will find it less difficult to decide to end 
    it completely, [less difficult than] the man who is always constructing
    [making up] lots and lots of things around the relationship.  My
    goal was not to bash someone [man] who might do that
    
    [ie. she's bashing the behavior of someone like her SO in the last
    example, just pointing out the difference...that a man may prolong
    something the woman sees as clearly dead]

    Agreed, I am young, I don't know what I'm talking about.  OK pops,
    I'll shut up...
    
    Z.-little-bird-barely-20-years-old

    My french teacher told me I had the most beautifully accented crap
    coming out of my mouth, so here's a reply in English...
    
    I am almost always the dumper not the dumpee.  I think it has to
    do more with me as a person than me as a female, I've seen plenty
    of women who hang on.  I do not fall in love easily so most of my
    breakups are non heart wrenching.  I have no idea who Mr Right is,
    but I've got a good idea who the Mr Wrongs are.  As soon as I see
    that I'm dating one, I end it.  I tell the guy why I don't want
    to continue it, only when he can't take no for an answer does he 
    get hurt.
    
    An important part of a relationship is the physical companionship.
    A woman has more chance of walking into a bar and getting some physical
    companionship (and she doesn't have to look like Bo Derek) than
    a man.  Maybe that's why women aren't so scared to let go.  Who
    knows...
    
    Sharon
    

    
 
      
    
    
    '
    





















A
    AKA:J.D.P.(Wise beyoh my Years?)
    
      It's been interesting to see so many of us who are interested
    in finding out the answer to this tini but timely topic1!
    
           I know how it feels to be in most of your shoes, especially
     
    the last five persons. I was married at a young age and did'nt really
    
    understand this institution of oneness, but hung in there the best
    
    I could until my "untimely" divorce. 
    
           After three-n-a-half years, it was I, (MALE!), who suggested
    
    strongly to break up this charade we unknowingly consented to. But
    
    after these eleven years since it has been my experince that we
    
    all have our differing ideals of, romance-love companionship---
    
    s*x- and all the other ingredients involved in relationships.
    
    One things for sure, there is pain, suffering, confusion, regrets,
    
    ill-feelings, etc. and also abandonment, loneliness, and the like.
    
             
           So who's right, who's wrong, who's fair and who's deciet-
    
    ful, who sacrifices and who gains. Neither gender does I think.
    
    
    WE ALL have hearts, minds, bodies and souls,(not to sound Phylisop-
    
    ohical), and, most of all, WE ALL have continued on!, (THE STRONG
    
    DO SURVIVE!). 
    
           What do we do now?, well, I'm not that Wise, but let's 
    
    learn from these things..., take these experinces and find, per-
    
    haps cultivate the happiness we never found, or, have discovered
    
    into something we'll, maybe, have wanted. The answer to which 
    
    only we know of...? Who is better able to cope with break-ups?
    
    
           What walks on two legs, wears clothing, sits at computer
    
      terminals...........?
    
                                      
             
        Who was that masked man..?
    
             J.D.P.!?!?*