Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    1.	Does this seem true in your experience?
    
    yes. But I have had few long-term male friends, my best friend is
    my wife. ipso facto I share my problems with a woman, not a man
    friend.
    
    2.  In what ways have you been taught to avoid intimacy with men?

    Physical intimacy, embracing a friend etc was severely discouraged
    by parents and my school.
        
    3.	What experiences have you had that support this belief?

    In short, 30 years as a male.
    
    Andy

    1.	Does this seem true in your experience?
    
    It sure does. I too have had few long term male friends. I have
    a few male cousins whom I have been friends with. I've been able
    to share some things with them but not as much as I'd like.
    
    2.  In what ways have you been taught to avoid intimacy with men?

    Basically I've been taught to avoid intimacy with men because so
    many are untrustworthy. Plain and simple, women keep confidences
    better then men (at least in my experience). Women try to help you
    directly while many men try and help you by telling others your
    problem so 'they' can help you. 
    
    Physical intimacy, at least with family, was encouraged though.
    I still greet my male family with a big hug. Recently I ran into
    a friend I had not seen in some time. The urge to hug was great
    but I just offered my hand because of the easily misunderstand
    messages in an unexpected hug.
    
    			Alfred

    Hello,
    
    Re : Sharing thoughts with male friends :
    
    I shared most of my thoughts & feelings with a male friend for years.
    Admittedly, when I met my wife, I started sharing things with her
    instead, and I probably would now find it difficult to 'open up'
    to someone else.  
    
    Re: Physical intimacy :
    
    Physical intimacy between men friends does not seem to be encouraged in
    "anglo-saxon" countries, but it is very common in mediterranean
    countries. I think it is merely a question of where you were brought
    up.
    
    			Philippe.
                                                              

    RE: .0
    
    How was this information gathered?
    
    
    
    John M.

    1.  Yes, I have had few long term male friends,  to much combat
    experience
    
    2.  Due to bad experiences in Vietnam, I avoid intimacy with anyone
        as much as possible;  can you believe it  17 years later and
    it still lasts
    

RE: < Note 50.4 >
    
>    How was this information gathered?

    
    Dr Hite is a Clinical Psychologist in private practice.  He does
    surveys to collect most of his analytic data.  That is all I remember
    from the flycover.  I have given my copy of the book away, as is
    my practice with good books, acolades, and ideas I like.  I found
    the book in the bookstore on the Delta concourse at Logan.

RE: < Note 50.5 >

>to much combat experience

>Due to bad experiences in Vietnam, I avoid intimacy with anyone
>as much as possible;
    
    
        Mythology about combat experience suggests that "foxhole friendships"
    are tight bonds that last for a lifetime.  It seems that military
    units have big reunions just like high school classes.  This indicates
    a powerful bonding, but I don't suppose the bond is intimacy.  If
    the definition of intimacy was restricted to "revealing information
    about one's self concept, particularly doubts, weaknesses and 
    vulnerabilities", does your combat experience impact your overall
    capacity for intimacy? 
    

    In the mid '70s, there were a number of conciousness-raising ("CR")
    groups scattered around this area that were formed to de-programme men,
    and allow them to be free of the stereotypical male attitudes that our
    society forces on men.  Needless to say, most of them were organised by
    gay men, and mostly attended by gay men.  There is still a "Men's
    Discussion Group" (today's version of a CR group) that exists to do the
    same thing now, which is mostly non-gay. 
    
    Most of my friends are gay men, so I find it quite comfortable to share
    with them.  I find it easy to be quite open in both a physical and
    emotional way.  (please note that I'm not talking about sexual
    relationships here!)  I treasure time spent cuddling on a couch,
    sharing my problems and my joys with a close friend.  However, for me,
    this was not always so.  I spent quite a number of years dumping all
    the baggage that comes along with begin male ... 
    
    Now, to stimulate a bit more discussion, my controversial opinion:
    
    I think that most non-gay men can only ever have one very close (ie,
    both emotionally close and physically close) friend in their life at a
    time, and that is their SO.  A non-gay man having close relationships
    with another man raises doubts about sexual orientation, and a non-gay
    man having close relationships with other women can cause jealousy in
    the relationship with their SO.  Women are not so restricted, because
    our society does allow/encourage close relationships between women. 
    
    There are certainly non-gay men that buck the trend.  One of my very
    close friends is a non-gay man ... he is a heterosexual, and proud of
    it --- confident enough in his own sexuality that he can be open and
    share with me.  However, my experience is that this is the exception
    rather than the rule.

    And I'm sure there's other opinions ...

    bob.

    Re: .6

    
>    Dr Hite is a Clinical Psychologist in private practice.  He does
>    surveys to collect most of his analytic data.  

    If this is the same Hite I recall from earlier and similar surveys,
    Sheree (sp?) Hite is a "she".

RE:< Note 50.9>
    
>>    Dr Hite is a Clinical Psychologist in private practice.  He does
>>    surveys to collect most of his analytic data.  

>    If this is the same Hite I recall from earlier and similar surveys,
>    Sheree (sp?) Hite is a "she".

    I dunno - that sounds familiar, but, as I said, I don't have the book
    anymore 

Ms. Hite is Shere Hite, and she is a she.  Dunno if she's a Dr. tho'.

CQ

    re .8 - "...A non-gay man having close relationships with another
    man raises doubts about sexual orientation..."
    
    Does a gay man have doubts about his "sexual orientation" by having a
    close relationship with a non-gay man, a gay man, a woman?
    
    You either have doubts or you don't.
     
    Greg

    The reason I asked about where Shere Hite got her her data is because a
    great deal of the info that went into "The Hite Report" came form
    questionnaires in COSMOPOLITON Magazine...hardly a valid statistical
    sample.  For this reason, "The Hite Report" was not taken very
    seriously by sexologists. 

    If the men were answering a questionnaire found in a woman's magazine,
    OF COURSE they would name their wives/lovers as their closest friend.
    Chances are the woman would have bought the magazine and asked the man
    to fill out the form. How many men would say that their best friend was
    someone else, knowing that their wives or girlfriends would/might see
    what they wrote? 


    John M. 

re: .13
>    great deal of the info that went into "The Hite Report" came form
>    questionnaires in COSMOPOLITON Magazine...hardly a valid statistical

Isn't that called "self-selection", meaning that whoever fills out the
questionnaire and sends it back gets counted?  I thought that was viewed
as being subject to lots of inaccuracy...seems to me that that was the
problem with the "Dewey beats Truman" poll.

Getting a representative sample is most of the work in today's polling.
Using a particular magazine to distribute a questionnaire introduces
one level of sample bias and accepting all responses "blind" really
blows it out of the water.

    I wonder if the tendency to debate the validity of the data rather
    than the questions raised in the base note illustrates typical
    male techniques for avoiding intimacy.  Observing similar questions
    in mosaic::womannotes suggests (to me) that a typical female response might
    be to "pour their guts out".  I wonder if males are taught to avoid
    questions that require self-revelation by challenging the validity
    or structure of the question.  I can see that behavior in myself,
    anyway.

I have close friends of both sexes.  As for physical contact, I'm into hugs,
 but most of my male friends aren't.  I generally only hug male friends who
  are liberated enough to be comforatable with it.

I carry a "License to Hug," which comes in handy if people take a hug the
 wrong way . . .
  <_Jym_>

    
    1. Does this seem true in your experiance?
    
      Yes and no. My best friend and I share just about everything
    regarding our feelings on any particular subject. Neither one of
    us is all hung up on our own sexuality.(We're both heterosexual)
    We have grown into this honesty through the many years we've known
    each other. I don't feel comfortable with other men on most of the
    topics we discuss though. I do feel somewhat more at ease with some
    of my woman friends on these same subjects. Times are changing though.
    I find that most of the younger men I know (20-30 yrs old) find
    some of the topics not so tabu as men a little older (35yrs old-???)
    Of course even among the younger set there are those that can't
    be trusted with anything said in private or confidance. 
    
    2. In what ways have you been taught to avoid intimacy with men?
    
    From parents and my peers throughout my school years. 
    When addressing topics like sexuality it has been my experiance
    to be a regular guy. You act secure, perhaps a little macho about
    it when in fact as an adolescent your a real basket case and are
    dying to get answers or anything to let you know other guys have
    the same feelings. My wife tells me that her friends were much more
    open and honest with each other on such things. 
    Intimacy existed only instead of a hug it was a kick on the butt
    or a slap on the back. 
    I'm not exactly how to pin down the whereabouts these social reactions
    were instilled in my mind but I do know that many of my male friends
    in my age range (I'm 30) are now begining to talk more openly than
    ever before. Many factors seem to be causing this. Divorce or threat
    of divorce has or unfullfilling relationships with men and woman
    has caused many of us to re-evaluate our perceptions of what is
    is to be a man. A good friend and I were all teary eyed at the end
    of "Anne Of Green Gables" (On PBS about a year ago) and we had a
    good laugh at each other for it. (Twas only a movie after all)
    Parenthood has probably payed a role also. I'll be damned if my
    sons are going to grow up with the same hang-ups that have taken
    me years to realize never mind overcome. 
    
    Oh yea!
    3. What experiances have you had tha support this belief?
    
    I don't support that belief anymore. My life experiances in general
    have helped to formulate these beliefs in the past. Peer pressure
    mainly. Common sense and the love of my wife and many close friends
    have helped to overcome that rediculous belief.
    
    

    re .13
    
    There is an appendix to the book that outlines the data gathering
    method. It also provides a cross check, of sorts, of the sample
    against the general U.S. population. I'm sure that appendix was
    a result of the criticism levied against her first book. As I recall
    the statistics of the sample matched rather closely the statistics
    of the population.
    
    Denny

    Being something of a "sissy" I was always on the outside when it
    came to same sex relationships. My physical development was about
    3 years behind those of my age, I don't know why, so I couldn't
    compete. Growing up in the corn belt there was only one model for
    being a boy/man that I obviously couldn't fulfill. Since that culture
    exists on Little League, softball, football, etc. it just went along
    without me and bit by bit I was trained not to expect any help from
    males. 
    
    In the military, Viet Nam era, I had the highest security clearance
    on the base. The work was "spooky" and I was a shop of one in a
    platoon that was segregated from the rest of the base. Within the
    platoon I was segregated from the others physically as well as
    emotionally due to the nature of what I was doing. It was a rather
    lonely existence.
    
    So, all in all, I find myself patterned to not expect much from
    other men. It's hard to break.
    
    D

>    1.	Does this seem true in your experience?
    
    To a point, yes.  I will share important feelings with a CLOSE male
    friend, of whom I have 2.  I will also share important feelings with 
    a close female friend.  My wife is 1 of 1.
    I will share my feelings with a man before I would share them with
    a woman, not counting my wife, we share everything.  I feel that
    I know what's in a man's head more than I do a woman's.  I don't
    understand women.  Also, when we visit friends, the men get together
    and the women get together, and I get to know the men a lot quicker.
    
>    2.  In what ways have you been taught to avoid intimacy with men?
           
    Through experiences.  See next question.
    
>    3.	What experiences have you had that support this belief?
    
    I once tried to hug an old friend and he backed off and gave me
    some awful crusties.  We were both about 19 and hadn't seen each
    other in about 3 years.  As stated in previous replies, I learned
    fast, in the military, that men will usually blab just to make you
    squirm.  I feel that a CLOSE friend will realize that he or she
    has too much to lose by doing it.  (Bill's going to think I'm picking
    on him 8-)  I don't trust men or women, people in general, until
    I get to know them VERY well.
     
>    Please feel free to not respond if you have difficulty expressing
    your feelings on this topic.
                                 
    This was my favorite line.
    
    Spence

    Having been "bitten" several times in the past, I can appreciate
    why we react to intimacy in this way.  I have also realised (now)
    that (generally) people will not take advantage of ones moments
    of vulnerability.  I HAVE to accept that occasionally they will, but
    that this is not the NORM, if I didn't I would go back to square 
    one each time, and that can be a very lonely road to hoe.
       

    BRAVO!!!!!!!
    
    [warm fuzzies]
    
    Lee