Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    The best way to find a good attorney is to get referrals from friends.
    Most of the lawyers will give the first session free to discuss
    procedures, fees, legal requirements, etc.
    
    Have him see two or three to find one he is comfortable with. This
    is important, since to whole process is pretty traumatic.
    
    John (who never thought he would have to, but did)
    

    May I suggest that you suggest to your friend that he and his wife
    see a marriage counselor before talking to lawyers.  It may not
    help, but it's a lot better than just giving up.
    				Steve

    re .2:
    
    Read .0 closely.
    
    re .0:
    
    Where do they live?
    
    - M

    
    One of the best ways to find a good lawyer is to go to the 
    Police Station.
    I know, that's the best way. These guys see the lawyers in action
    all the time.
    You can ask your friends, call the local bar and so forth, but 
    the good ole cop has seen them all.
    
    And if you are going to get a Divorce don't be dumb listen to your
    lawyer!
    
    Later,
    Cal.
    

Other thought: 
Ask your marriage guidance counsellor for a recommendation for a lawyer!


		Nigel

    re .6
    I think what you are talking about are also called Mediators.
    They are often listed in the phone book under mediation services.
    A close friend of mine who studied to be a lawyer but found she
    didn't enjoy the practice became a court mediator instead. I will
    try and find out more about how she is certified/credentialled
    whatever. (She became a mediator because she felt it was a constructive
    way of helping people.)
    
    Bonnie

    
    Re: .0 & .7
    
    If your friend Tom and his wife are in the Boston Area, and they
    don't have an ax to grind with each other, I would recommend the
    "Divorce Resource & Mediation Center", 2464 Mass. Av., Cambridge
    Ma., 02140 (617-492-3533) as an excellent route to a good mediator
    who will help them mediate a final agreement and save a lot of lawyer's
    fees and adversarial actions as the mediator doesn't take sides. Each
    will need their own lawyer to review the final document (this is
    to make sure each is protected), but it it eliminates a lot of the
    expensive hostilities battling lawyers can cause.  My experience
    with them was excellent and would have worked had my ex not let
    herself to be prodded by her lawyer into going for much more than
    50% of the pie.  I hope Tom can avoid what I am going through now.
    I can be called or sent MAIL at the above ENET if more information
    is needed/desired.
    
    					Joe
    

Just a cynical thought: wanna bet Tom's wife thinks things are grand?

    When I got divorced (in 1973) my ex-wife and I sat down and wrote
    out a distribution of assetts & liabilities which we agreed upon.
    She got the small amount of cash available to start up in an 
    appartment, she got her car with a clear title, she got all the
    furniture, kitched stuff, stereo and the television, and the
    outstanding credit card purchases not directly involving me.  I
    got the house which had a fresh 90% mortgage and a borrowed down
    payment against it, a car mortgaged to the max, the appliances,
    and a mattress to sleep on.  On day one, we had equal net worth.
    
    She went to a couple of lawyers who said "...you can get the house,
    you can get alomony....".  She, thank God, was insistant that our
    agreement was the 'last word' and that is how it went to count and
    was awarded.
    
    Bill G.
    

    
    RE: .10
    
    I'm very happy that things worked out so fairly for you and that
    your EX stuck to her agreement to do things fairly.  I though my
    situation would be the same as "we" started working out a fair
    agreement ourselves, only, unfortunately, she decided to go with
    what her lawyer pushed her to do (similar to what you mentioned
    in your reply).
    
    I wish everyone getting divorced has it as reasonable as you did!!
    
    						Joe

    I hate to pat myself on the back, maybe I should just kick myself
    in the butt instead.
    
    I got divorced in 1983, after talking about it for almost 4 years.
    I felt so guilty that I was the one who finally said "this is enough",
    that I refinanced my car (6 mo. left to pay it off, to 3 yrs) and
    used the money to pay off *our*bills, and any that I couldn't pay
    off I took and have just finished paying off.  He stayed in the
    house we were renting, and I found an apartment.  I took the kids
    because he said he couldn't handle having them all the time, but
    yet we have joint custody.  The apartment we rented said no pets,
    so I had to leave me 4 cats and 2 dogs with the ex, he called one
    day and informed me that I better do something with them or they
    were all going to the pound; I found homes for the dogs and 2 of
    the cats, 1 cat I had to have put to sleep (she had a hormone imbalance
    and had to have shots every 4-8 weeks), and one I sneaked into the
    apartment.  I took all the furniture that my grandmother had sent
    me, and the diningroom set (I picked it out and he didn't really
    like it, plus I paid for it), he got everything else.  Everything
    we had ever bought together, or was given to us as a couple.  Plus
    he got the new Bronco, and the payments of course.  for the most
    part, I got the bills and the headaches, and he got the house and
    one bill.  I paid the lawyer, he never got one.  I refused to listen
    to anyone, this is how we had set it up, and I went along with it.
    The worst part was, he is paying child support, $100 per month for
    both kids (not EACH, for both), it says in the divorce decree that
    as soon as he gets his degree in Engineering the support is to go
    up, he quit school, so the degree will never happen and the increase
    will never happen either.
    
    As I said, do I pat myself on the back for not giving him the shaft,
    or do I kick myself in the butt for being such a sucker?
    
    If I had gone to a mediator, this would most likely be a lot different.
    
    Mary-Lynn
    
    PS  I have had the creditors on my back for 3 years, and he bought
    a house last year.  I would take him back to court, but I am now
    in New Hampshire and he is in Colorado. (I have the kids, he felt
    he would rather have them come out for summers, than stay there).

    
    If it comes to the Divorce, amd any competent attorney should prod
    your friend to be sure it has, be sure he is open and honest with
    the attorney on the first meeting, and don't forget to discuss fees
    and payment schedules at the same time.
    
    A misunderstanding with your attorney, or hiding facts from your
    attorney can be a financial and emotional disaster later.
    
    

    If you need a good lawyer, I would like to recommend mine,
    she is in Lowell, and is very good, extremely compentent, and is
    there for me.  She does not believe in taking a man for all he is
    worth, and works out extremely good payments, depending on what
    YOU can afford. I would be more than happy to supply her name via
    mail to anyone that asks, or if enough interest, I'll post her name
    and phone number here.
    
    Gale

TO:	Whom it may concern

FROM:	$Bill

RE:	Divorce Attorneys


	My experience in being open and honest with my (former)

attorney was not good.

	1) he now shares office space with my former wife's attorney
	(this is equivalent to... { in my opinion } being in patrnership,,,
	although not legally equivalent )

	2) attorney's are a nosy bunch of busybodys... they enjoy telling
	their comrades "warstories" of your troubles...

	W O R D   T O    T H E   W I S E


	DONT tell anything you dont want repeated.!!!!


	EXAMPLE...

	My former spouse was jealous of my spending $ on an

	attorney to fight over a visitation issue... I never

	told her how much I paid... but she knew to the penny...

	because... as best as I can surmize... that the two 

	attorneys discussed the amount of their compensation...

	(AS ATTORNEY'S HAVE BEEN KNOWN TO DO)



	When selecting an attorney... talk to a few... 


	and MOST important... go to court and watch them...


	They may give you a good WARDANCE but be meek and mild
	in front of the judge or opposition.

TO:	Y O U

FROM:	$BILFJR

RE:	CHILD SUPPORT = $$$


	I will have paid over $150k by the time my last one is 18 !!!

	That is, If no increases are made.  Mobilization is necessary,

	remember the 60's... the revolution is coming (but not as

	soon as I would like),  court monitors to intimidate the 

	legal system, seems like an innovative methodology to help

	fathers... does anyone have any info ????

TO:	Whom It May Concern

FROM:	$BILFJR

RE:	DIVORCE

	
	Before you do anything !!! read  WEEKEND FATHERS

	by Gerald A. and Myrna Silver published by Berkley Books

	NYC, NY. ........ IT IS THE   B  I  B  L  E

	for anyone contemplating divorce, marriage... etc.

from:	$bill

	Feminists's complain that they have been overworked,

	underpaid, shortchanged etc.  Much of this is true and badly

	needed reforms have been instituted.  Who would seriously

	challenge equal pay for equal work or the right of females to

	compete equally with males ?  

	The proliferation of new laws, governement agencies, self-help

	womens groups and a deluge of books have addressed womens' 

	problems - and righly so.  But in this stampede to help women,

	m e n   a r e   b e i n g   t r a m p l e d .

	Men are becoming cognizant of the real power in relationships -
	that it has often been the male, by virtue of his sex drive,

	who has been manipulated and exploited by the female.

	The above is a quote/paraphrase from WEEKEND FATHERS...

	page 4 & 5.

	

	PROTECT yourself If your wife is also contemplating a split...
	my ex- took the savings account and the income tax refund...
	hired a heavy hitting and expensive female lawyer.

	If your thinking about a split... split the cash now!

	As it was... I had to pay for her lawyer as well as my own!!!

	Note that this is the standard modus operani...

	The husband pays to get himself stabbed in the back !!!!

						$bill

    re .17-21
    
    I didn't want to hire a lawyer to represent me in court, only for
    consultation. The ex couldn't accept that, so she hired a lawyer.
    I paid half, but still got the consulting advice and in a different
    town. Your points are well taken, but they only work for a split
    that both parties agree to/know about in advance. Its when you
    come home and the place is empty like the checking account, that
    the real problems begin. Having children complicates the events
    even more. I'm glad that there weren't any from my previous marriage,
    they probably would have had to have therapy like my ex did.
    
    Bob Mc

	I knew, but didn't want to believe that the split was
	to come... because we had been getting divorced from 81 till
	87... we tried the therapy... singular, couple (big joke),
	and group... participation in counseling allowed me to be
	lulled into thinking that things were more stable than they 
	actually were...
	If one side wants out and is devious about the $split, custody...
	etc.,,,, then you can get the short end of the stick and the
	emotional hurts as well.

	Word of caution... once again... Cover  Your  A**

	From WEEKEND FATHERS page 102...


	There is often much advantage to be gained from being the moving
	party, or the one who files first.  The one who initiates the lagal 
	action may select the court as well as the time in which to litigate.

	Some men find they are served papers to appear at a time or place
	not convienent to them.  This can affect your job, and it is better
	for you to do the choosing.

	-------------------------------------------------------------

	In my case... I was served!!! in my living room on night...
	given 20 minutes to leave by a sheriff... (who was not
	knowledgeable of the proceedure... the papers were only
	a formal notice that she was *** A S K I N G *** the court
	to allow her exclusive use of the house.  After the first
	hearing, I was given 10 days to get a place... then I
	had to leave on a work assignment to Europe of 3 weeks..!!!

	Talk about being overwhelmed by the tide !!!


						LATER

						$BILL



	

	Court room strategy ?


	Another excerpt from WEEKEND FATHERS


		You should be as knowledgable as possible about
court proceedure and the attitude of the judge who will hear your
case.  MAny maen feel that it is helpful to sit in the judges's 
courtroom and watch him in action.  Family-law courts are open to the
public, and you may wish to attend several hearings prior to your own,
so court proceedure will be more familiar and less intimidating.
		end quote
_______________________________________________________

For some people their 1st time in court is for their divorce and
they are overwhelmed, intimidated, fearful of the unknown... etc.

I have been numerous times and seen judges "rubber stamp" lopsided
decrees.  I have seen divorces railroaded through .. etc

_______________________________________________________

	In the words of my current attorney...

	It is hard to get back today what was taken taken yesterday.

-------------------------------------------------------
more quotes from WEEKEND FATHERS

	You should recognize the import of interim orders.  These are called
"Orders to Show Cause" (OSC's).  An OSC is a preliminary hearing order.
At these hearings immediate matters such as protection of assets,
temporary childsupport, custody or alimony are dealt with, pending the trial.


	TEMPORARY  ORDERS  HAVE  A WAY  OF BECOMING *** PERMENANT ***
SOLUTIONS.  

	Don't agree to temporary concessions which you cannot accept
later as permenant.




							$BILL

	I'm rapidly approaching the deadline to appeal the
	results of my divorce.  The straw that broke the camels'
	back was when I found out that I have a very large IRS
	bill because I lent my share of the proceeds of the sale
	of the marital domicile to my ex so she could buy another
	house and thereby facilitate maintainance of the kids
	in the PROPER environment.  It turns out that if you sell
	a house and don't re-invest the $$$ in a new one ...
	it is added to your salary as income and taxed!!!!
	
	Any war stories about appeals in a divorce situation ??


						$bill

CHILD SUPPORT ?

	Child support matters take on the increasing importance as
millions of children become victims of broken homes.  Judges take into
consideration many factors in establishing child support awards. (See
147 in mannotes). Including need of the children, their ages, ability of
the parents to pay and the previous standard of living.  Some courts use a
table which specifies suggested amounts of child support based on these
variables.
	After a divorce it is often the male who is expected to sholder
the full responsibility of child support.  It is almost automatic for
the children to go with the mother, for she is seen as the nurterer.
Equally automatic is the assumption that the bills go to Dad, for he is the
provider.  A few states have declared that the father and a mother, rather
than the father alone, have an equal responsibility to support and
educate their children (R.I.is one... more on this later), taking into
consideration the respective earnings or earning capacities of the parents.
Hopefully, this is the wave of the future and will catch on across the
country.
	One of the most common complaints of responsible fathers who
pay child support is that there is no accounting of how the money is
spent.  Indeed, there are women who receive substantial child support
which *is spent on their own personal needs* rather than on the
       ------------------------------------
children.  Some women view child support as an extension of their 
alimony.  (Authors note... my ex refers to c.s. as --- where's
 M  Y    money,,,, vs. where's the money for the kids). 

Courts SHOULD require that the recipient of childsupport give a full 
and complete accounting of how the money is spent.

	The amount of child support should be based upon what it costs
to raise a child in today's economy.  It is not unreasonable to include
cost of living allowances.  The amount that is fixed upon should then be
divided between the two parents in proportion to their incomes.

	A case in point, one father who earns $700/month was ordered to pay 
$450 /mo in c.s. and alimony.  While it is difficult for a family of 3
to live on $700/mo , if that is all that is available, then it should be
allocated in a reasonable manner.

	IT IS UNFAIR FOR THE MALE TO BE FORCED TO PROVIDE A STANDARD OF
LIVING HIGHER FOR OTHER MEMBERS OF THE FAMILY THAN FOR HIMSELF.

-------------------------------------------------------
The above is from pages 117 and 118 of WEEKEND FATHERS

--------------------------------------------------------
??? has anyone ever been successful in getting an accounting of where
the c.s. goes .... has anyone ever tried???


------------------------------------------------------------
R.I. is about to adopt a new "equitable" formula for c.s.

	the equation is


         H
      ------  X  [ ( H + W ) * N ]
       H + W

		where	H is the husbands gross pay
			W is the wifes gross pay
			N is the needs % rate 

	The needs % rate is that % of the parents $ that is to be
	used for the kids.

	It is determined something like this:

		ages
		----
		0 - 11		23 %
		12 - 18		25 %  (big kids cost more)

	I have 2 of the 23 % variety so... 46 % plus 1 of the 25 %
	variety = 71 %

	This is divided by 3 kids to give  a 23.66 % weighted average

	Now suppose that the husband grosses 40K and the wife 10K for
	a combined gross of 50k.

	Then 50K * .2366 is for use by the kids ... or $11830

	Then the husbands share is 40k / 50k or 80 % of $11830
	hence his c.s. is $9464 or $182 per week.

	Of course, special provisions are available to the judge
	to handle situations, such as special needs children
	handicapped wife, etc. to allow additional $ to be awarded
	in excess of the formula.
	

	In addition, if the wife works and uses day care, the
	husband may be required to pay 1/2 of this cost... in
	addition to what is required by the above formula.

	Please note that this formula almost always works out
	to 1/4 of the husbands gross salary, give or take a few
	percentage points.

	This formular is known as the MAINE formula because that
	state was the originator.  The use of a scheme such as the
	above has some good points.  
	
	1) It removes judiciary discretion... you and I may have
		similar circumstances but very different c.s. $
		amounts.

	2) (MOST IMPORTANT) It compiles with the soon to be imposed
	Monihan Bill... see 147 mannotes.

	3) It follows some of the ideas presented above by WEEKEND 
	FATHERS, i.e., that the husband & wife share in supporting the
	kids.  Needs of children be set - then shared proportionally
	by H and W.

	----------------
	P R O B L E M S
	================
	
	1). The formula does not take into account lopsided property
	settlements... e.g., wife gets kids, house, furnishings...
	husband gets clothes, bills etc.
		In my own case my ex got all of the above, plus some
	extras!  This leaves the husband in the situation of starting
	over with very little material possesions.

	2). The formula doesn't take into account that as of 1 jan 87
	the I.R.S. allows only the person who has possession of the
	children to claim them as a tax deduction, unless otherwise
	agreed to in writting.  Old divorces use the old > 50%
	support rule but, new lines on the tax return for entry of 
	your deductible person's social security number will prevent
	you and your ex- from both deducting the same kids.

	3). The judge is forced to use the formula and NOT DEVIATE
	from use of same.


	Now, in the example above, the husband would be in the 38%
	tax bracket... with appropriate FICA, State Income Tax,
	medical insurance, ... etc deductions, his net would be
	about 20k and from that he would have to pay the c.s. of 
	$9464.... leaving him with...

	$10536/yr or barely over $200/week to re-start his life !!!

	SPECIAL NOTE ---->

	Also, note that if the husband has no income, a minimum
	is always set ... usually about 25 % of his unemployment,
	or about $50/week....
		
		With auto expense of about $50/week to go to
		work ... the husband is better off not working !!!!

	
	The ex- of course has her income unencomburred by income
	tax by virtue of the mortgage interest expense and the
	children as tax deductions.  So she effectively receives
	85% of her gross pay.!!!!    P L U S    C.S.   plus
	boarders (also known as boyfriends... girlfriends)

	Whew... I got carried away... are reforms needed... Y E S

		enuf for now....




					$ B I L L
	

	what happened to .28 ???


			$BILL

    re: .30
    
    Authors can delete their own postings ...
    
    	-- Jeff Coffler (co-moderator of MENNOTES)

    RE: .30,.31
    
    I deleted my postings because I am preparing a basenote around the
    same points and questions and felt that any discussion ought to
    be in a single stream.