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Conference quark::mennotes-v1

Title:Topics Pertaining to Men
Notice:Archived V1 - Current file is QUARK::MENNOTES
Moderator:QUARK::LIONEL
Created:Fri Nov 07 1986
Last Modified:Tue Jan 26 1993
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:867
Total number of notes:32923

23.0. "the testosterone plague" by CGHUB::CONNELLY (Eye Dr3 - Regnad Kcin) Wed Nov 19 1986 03:26

When it comes to perpetrating violent crimes, men are supposed to account for
about 90% of the cases, although they make up a little less than 50% of the
overall population.  Men who commit violent crimes also tend to show up as
"repeat offenders" quite a lot too.

Maybe this could get into a question of "nature vs. nurture" and sexual roles,
but I am wondering if there is a subset of males that is somehow biologically
much more prone to violent behavior.  If there's not, then I guess we could all
look at the Bundys/Specks/Mansons et al and say "there but for the grace of God
go I".

But if there is, could this subset be skewing the bounds of acceptable behavior
for the rest of us?  Maybe we allow ourselves to become desensitized to violent
behaviors in the course of growing up with these "pre-criminal" males.  Maybe
they scare us, so we learn to look the other way and condone their irrational
rages and perpetual hostility.  Maybe the tendency of groups of young males to
sink to the lowest common denominator of behavior comes from the dominance that
violence-prone individuals can exert.

This is just a slightly crazed hypothesis--does it strike any chords?
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23.1Hormones and upbringing are an excuseCEDSWS::REDDENlearning for profitWed Nov 19 1986 11:0813
>I guess we could all
>look at the Bundys/Specks/Mansons et al and say "there but for the grace of God
>go I".

    Blaming ones behavior on ones hormonal state is about as 
    irresponsible as blaming it on ones upbring. Bundy/Speck/Manson
    all had the option of *DECIDING* whether to reject or obey the
    norms/folkway/laws of our culture.  However, there is ample evidence 
    that chemicals can fix a chronic rapist, but the similar drugs seem 
    to have little effect on other crimes.
        
    Somehow, this issue seems to contain the mirror of a study done
    on the menstrual state of women involved in domestic violence.
23.3A.F.F.A.FDCV13::CALCAGNIWed Nov 19 1986 16:1238
    
    
    "Violence"!
    
    Before I met my wife I was closely associated with violence.Starting
    with the service and continuing into my early motorcycle days.
    
    My parents were'nt violent, firm but not violent.
    
    My early boyhood friends were into sports, baseball, fishing, so
    I never saw it there.
    
    But when I went into the service it was drilled into your head.."Do
    onto others before they do you!
    It was a job and was treated like that.
    
    When I was riding with the club it was a everyday occurrence. We
    called it "Checking your Mud". But after a while it became second
    nature to strike out at anything, anyone that even dared to look
    crosseye at you.
    
    Maybe I grew up or you just reach a point, but I became sick of
    it! Just couldn't take it anymore. My values changed and my outlook
    changed.
    
    Oh I often have to suppress the desire to "NAIL" someone who is
    giving me a hard time, but I can and do. Before I never thought
    about hurting someone or worse.
    
    What I'm trying to say it wasn't a part of me. I was put there.
    Brainwashing, environment, association, yep and maybe a little
    of me.
    
    Does all this make sense? The worse part was at the time I actually
    enjoyed it!!
    
    Cal.
    
23.4TOPDOC::STANTONI got a gal in KalamazooWed Nov 19 1986 23:3717
    
    Actually there have been studies (can't quote exact sources)
    on the role of chemistry/biology in violent crimes. The study
    I'm think of did find some correlation between certain areas
    of the brains of repeat violent offenders. The chemistry in-
    volved has to do with certain B vitamin deficiencies, as well
    as a lack of iodine.       
                               
    Sociological studies have revealed definite patterns that
    abused children are more likely to commit violent crimes
    as adults. One reason that males do this more than females
    is that most societies tolerate (or encourage) violent male
    behavior, thus setting a pattern of behavior that, over time, 
    can go beyond what the society tolerates. Violence, like drugs
    or alcohol, is addictive, the more so if your childhood has
    been tainted by sexual or physical abuse.
        
23.5A.F.F.A.FDCV13::CALCAGNIThu Nov 20 1986 18:1716
    
    
       There goes another theory!
    
    Never abused as a child, physically or sexually.
    
    Always took my vitamins, more now since I found health!
    
    I've seen studies where it says people who drink beer,smoke all
    things possible, and have tattoos are more prone to violence.
    
    The best part is the greatest number of people who are prone to
    doing someone up drank "MILK"!
    
    Boy I love studies!
    
23.6small interruptionCACHE::MARSHALLhunting the snarkSat Nov 22 1986 02:239
    re .5:
    
    What does "A.F.F.A." stand for?
                                                   
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23.7MILK vs TESTESTERONETOPDOC::STANTONI got a gal in KalamazooSun Nov 23 1986 01:5159
                          
                          
    re .5                 
                          
    The study I mentioned dealt with folks who engaged in criminal 
    violence (murder, torture, rape, armed robery, etc.). I don't think
    you include youself in this class of violent persons.
                          
    Despite your cynicism, there is value in such studies. If society
    can find a pattern & break it, we may reduce the number of violent
    crimes, or at least contain it (God forbid, even treat these
    offenders). What I'm talking about here is a class of criminal
    offender who has a definite, recognizable profile that should
    be identified and dealt with accordingly.
                          
    We are governed by body chemistry as much as anything
    else. Take away the iodine in the brain & a genius is reduced
    to a babbling idiot. I lived in a rooming house with a fellow
    who needed lithium treatments to control his violent behavior; one
    night, having missed his treatment, he cut his wrists; the next
    time he missed the lithium he tried to cut me & another guy with
    a broken bottle, & he was not f***ing around either. My sister
    (a social worker) can chronicle endless tales like this, many 
    of them treatable with vitamin or chemical therapy (I do not
    mean drugs).          
    
    
    [general flame]
    
    Men in general are expected to react violently at one time or another:
    we "fight back," "don't take this lying down," "fight the good fight,"
    "take a stand," and so on. There is a very thin line between the
    socialized violence of the boardroom in business and actual physical
    violence. The only difference between the boardroom & the barfight is
    the style. Boardroom violence is slower, more painful in the long run,
    & often extracts a heavier price; the barroom brawl erupts quickly & is
    over in a matter of minutes, with stitches, on average, being the only
    real damage inflicted (I am assuming your violence never crippled
    or disfigured anyone). 
    
    Men are taught violence from birth. My son (6) watches cartoons
    where good battles evil with a host of armaments; we both enjoy
    watching football ("good hit," we both exclaim); he likes wrestling,
    takes karate, & generally likes mixing it up with his peers. Am
    I raising a violent child? No...I am preparing him for a violent
    world, as I was prepared. I have never started a fight in my life,
    & hopefully I never will, but I am trained to expect that a fight
    can happen and to deal with it. For the average person, violence 
    in & of itself has less to do with one's genitals than it has to
    do with a conscious choice. .3 learned violence and was seduced
    by it. He made a conscious choice to stop because he was sick of
    it. Most random violence is a conscious choice; criminal violence,
    on the other hand, has almost nothing to do with choice, though
    it is enhanced by our society's fascination with the brief feeling
    of power over the victim. The "dark side" is a seduction, & for
    those who were raised on violence at home (abuse & rape) the appeal
    is closer to chemical addiction than it is to machismo.
    
    
23.8A.F.F.A.FDCV13::CALCAGNIMon Nov 24 1986 16:1315
    
    
    .6  
    
    Something I picked up a long time ago, it kinda stuck with me.
    
                A.F.F.A.
    
    Angels Forever Forever Angels!
    
    
    There ya go,            
                            
    Cal.                 
                        
23.9Chemical FolliesVAXUUM::DYERIt's Bedtime for BonzoWed Dec 10 1986 08:1211
These chemical analyses beg the question.  Is the violent behavior caused by
 the chemicals or are the chemicals produced for violence that originates in
  the mind (and ultimately from the environment)?  Considering that there's
   lots of money to be made selling chemicals to counter other chemcials, we
    may not find out for a long time.

One thing should be made clear, though:  a lot of the chemicals associated
 with men are incorrectly named as the cause of aggression.  Stuff like adren-
  aline and testosterone merely make one more *active*.  For that activity to
   be expressed as aggressive depends on a social context.
    <_Jym_>
23.10There have been some links in the pastLILAC::MKPROJREAGAN::ZOREFri May 15 1987 20:5013
    	I remember that the Texas school sniper way back when had a
    tumor in his brain which was pressing against those regions that
    are accepted by doctors as the areas responsible for aggresion.
     Apparently he increasingly had to struggle with himself to control
    his emotions in the months (years?) before he snapped.  He had even
    seen doctors about "his problem" but (at the time) they weren't
    able to find what his problem was.  After he was killed and the
    autopsy was performed it was discovered that he had the tumor.
    	I believe that because of this case, the possiblity of a brain
    tumor is checked out when a person reports increasing difficulty
    in controlling his emotions.  My $.02 worth.
    
    Rich Z