Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    I have a family, part of which was "ready made".  My wife was married
    previously, and had two sons.  Funny, but they both look very much
    like me, although their father didn't.  In fact, we get comments
    like, "you look just like daddy!"
    
    We now have another child, a little girl.  We wanted a girl very
    much, and we got our wish.
    
    The children are now 8 (David), 5 (Jason), and 1 (Meagan).  Leslie
    and I married 2.5 years ago, but knew each other since before Jason
    was born, so I have known Jason and Meagan all of their lives, and
    known David since he was about 2.5 years old.
    
    When we were first married, the boys addressed me as "poppa".  I
    felt a bit awkward since they referred to their father as "daddy".
    Over time "daddy" dissappeared (is there a message here?), and they
    began to call me daddy.  This was a big moment for me, because I
    didn't feel that the competition was there anymore.
    
    Enough background, now the answers to your questions:
    
    Q: What were my feelings about a "ready made family"?
    
    A: Well, the woman I dated before Leslie had a single daughter.
       My father was relieved that I married Leslie, since my next date
       would probably have had 3 children!!!
       As I mentioned in the "other" notesfile, the only thing I miss
       was the time alone with my wife after we were married.  We had
       a one-week honeymoon, and it was back into "family life".  I
       have since gotten over that, and look to the year 2011 when I
       will finally be alone with Leslie.  But I'm having all my "good
       times" now with the children that I love, and who love me back.
    
    Q: Any worries?
    
    A: I hope that the old "daddy" stays away.  For the sake of the
       children, I hope that we never hear from him again.  There is
       no competition whatsoever, since he couldn't care less about
       them, using them as "tools" to prove his masculinity.  The boys
       have some bad memories of him, which I want them to forget.
       I'd love to tell more about him, but the rules of this notesfile
       won't allow it.
    
    Q: Concerns?
    
    A: Not really.  This is MY family now, and I love them all.  I get
       back an over-abundance of love in return.  How much is too much?
       I don't think there is a limit, and I hope that it keeps coming
       for the rest of my life.  I think I'm a bit eccentric, though.
       See the "other" notesfile for details.
    
    Q: What convinced me to do this?
    
    A: Easy.  It felt "natural".  Leslie and I have known each other
       for a long time.  As a matter of fact, when she was married before,
       she set me up on a blind date.  The girl was suicidal!  Have
       you ever driven an attractive woman home while she discussed
       "ending it all" on the way?  Oh God, was that awful!!!
       The acceptance from the boys took a while.  David has an attitude
       where he "ignores" you at first, because he doesn't know if you'll
       be around for a while, or just passing through.  Always been
       that way, but now that we're back in the US permanently, I think
       that he'll change.  Jason will use you as much as he can, with
       his smile and freckles (we used to call him "bubbles", because
       he was a very happy baby).  Now we call Meagan "witch".  Need
       I say more?
    
    So, are there any more questions out there?  I'd like to hear from
    other moms or dads who have a similar background.  I would suspect
    that this sort of transition would be more difficult for a "foreign"
    mother than a father.  Is this true?  How about moms and dads with
    "older" children?
    
    //john

        
        Your note  got  me  thinking,  John  - I'll have a ready-made
        family in the very near future, and (with some trepidation) I
        brought up the subject of adopting Sandy's son when we marry.
        His response was to  ask  if he could have my name as well as
        his own, and to call me 'Dad'! That meant a *lot*!
        
        The fun part comes in relating to him as a 'Father' - I never
        had offspring of my own, so  I  tend to treat him as an adult
        (he's 14) and so far he seems to be responding pretty well.
        
        A  ready-made  family?    I love it!  One of the aspects that
        Sandy and  I  talked over, and that I had to explain to Robby
        was that I  wanted them *both* as family and not just Sandy -
        that was one of  his  primary  concerns  -  the fear of being
        'left out', and I'm happy  to  say  that he no longer worries
        about that.
        
        Worries?  I agree - I  hope  his  natural father stays out of
        our lives, and that I have it  in me to be a real 'Father' to
        him, with no previous experience to fall back  on.
        
        Concerns?  I hope I can give him enough  in  a positive sense
        to  overcome  the negative influences he's experienced so far
        in his life.
        
        What convinced  me??  I love Sandy, and her love includes her
        son - we are family, and with time and togetherness, the bond
        will become increasingly stronger  - right now i like her son
        a lot;  he's becoming  a  real  friend, and that to me is the
        most important aspect at this stage.   Felt natural?  I agree
        with that too - it just feels right to all of us.
        
        Andy
        
        p.s.  I'm looking forward to  teaching  him  how  to shave at
        Christmas! :^) 

    Just as an aside...
    
    as a father I would hate to be excluded from seeing my children
    as their father should their mother and I split up.
    
    The relationship with children is extremely precious, don't ask
    the father to give up parenthood just because you arrived!

    re:-1
    an aside to an aside.
    
    Some *fathers* give up parenthood before the new daddy arrives.
    Some *fathers* bugger off with another women and leave a wife and
    two kids to fend for themselves.
    Also, as another aside, dont talk to me about maintenance payments,
    my *wife* is owed FIFTEEN THOUSAND QUID by her former husband. BUT
    its worth 15,000 pounds to have peace of mind that he will never
    see MY children again.
    
    David_who_has_a_readymade_family_Banks.

This is boring dual tasking between two conferences!
I am not writing a different reply to both conferences so if this reply
seems to answer unasked questions,then I apologise.

Just a few throwaway remarks to provoke discussion.

When a father has a child, there must be an automatic bond between the father
and child by default.  In most cases father loves child.
I think that I love my step-children more that any natural father could,
I have no automatic bond with them therefore I have to try harder.

My *wife* did not want a string of 'uncles' for the children when her husband 
left and indeed looking for another husband at the time was the last thing
she wanted to do. Therefore it was many months before she was happy for
me meet the children. They call me David, not uncle David or Daddy etc.
I have spoken about changing their surnames and one does, the other doesn't.
But coincidence reins, *my* youngest daughters initials are the same as mine,
and there great grandfathers name is Banks-Page.

I am introduced as 'my dad' to my children's friends, and the fact that they
call me David instead of dad is quietly explained to their friends when
I am out of earshot - not for want of embarrassment - its just so boring
to have to explain it all the time and if anybody is embarrassed its the
person asking the question, not my family.

The most annoying thing from the children's aspect is those BLOODY nosy
busy bodies at school called pastoral care teachers etc. They automatically
think because I am a step father that there must be a problem. I can assure
you from what I hear from my daughters, we are the last family in the school
who need pastoral care - its the families going through divorce etc who
want the help and that's all neatly shovelled under the carpet.

We are one family unit and it has grown that way over the years, we have
now been together 7 years. The children accept my authority but one word
of advice - if embarking on this type of relationship get their mum to tell
them in no uncertain terms that she accepts you whatever and that you have
as much authority as she does BUT do not say that you are taking their fathers
place - that's a definite no-no.

Referring back to my opening paragraph, I think they respect me more than
their own father - that's not difficult, he ran out on them and they have
reached that conclusion of their own accord. Whether they love me more or
not, I would hope so - they mention him about once a year, if that, the
youngest one mentioned him for the first time in 3 years recently and she
phrased the comment in abject apology to me and my feelings. The important
thing is that I am THERE, supporting their mother and them and they know
that I (capital I) will never leave them.

One of the advantages to the elder daughter (15 years old) is that I can
talk to her about growing up things. My wife cannot as she still sees her
as the cute little girl, not a a near women with men problems and she was
mortified when I matter of factly stated that they were having a 'kiss and
cuddle' when we came back one night and found all the lights out and the
boy friend was round. Also I feel that they are not afraid to ask me questions
about sex etc as I am NOT their real father, maybe they would feel inhibited
asking their real father such questions?.

The most upsetting time was early on in the relationship. HE was still seeing
the children on a fortnightly basis and HE had an American girlfriend. One
night they came round, telling us that we should ALL be a family unit, all
six of us, we should ALL go out on picnics, go down the pub together etc
etc. Why this sudden burst of caring - they had seen Kramer vs Kramer the
night before. Now I haven't seen the film, I am to busy living it, but I
told him to sling his hook and f**k off out of it.

The decision making process in all this is exactly the same as for any other
family. You fall in love with the mother, go out for some time and then
she says do you want to start a family (by the way she says, I have one
already made if you want it). You must at this point IGNORE the children's
feelings. Why you ask?. Because they will leave home in n years time and
you will be left with your wife. So, decide if you want to spend the rest
of your life with the women and then AND ONLY then, decide if you want a
family. If you do, then its easy - providing you get the rules right from
the start.

I know this is all one-sided and I acknowledge the fact the it may be the
women's fault why the husband left - BUT FATHERS, COULD YOU LEAVE A 3 YEAR
OLD AND 9 YEAR OLD DAUGHTER. My eldest daughter is always the first to help
the underdog, all the children in her class bring her their problems and
I think she has taken a hard calculating look at her position in life and
her outlook is flavoured by her background.

I felt proud that the family unit that I wanted to enter accepted me. Its
rather like getting a new job but a million times moreso. My concerns were
that I had no training for the job. I was not concerned over the social
acceptance of our family unit, the rest of the world could get lost as far
as I was concerned - nobody else worries about it when they start families,
why should I. I was joining a readymade family because I loved the mother
and wanted to spend the rest of my life with her - if I had to have two
gorgeous girls into the bargain then that was a bonus.

Regarding more of the same, I do NOT want to bring another human being into
THIS world. There are enough people starving in this world without one more
and anyway, despite maternal feelings, my wife does not want to spend another
7-10 years washing nappies etc etc - remember we stay with each other because
of love, not because we want to start a family.

My youngest eldest daughter couldn't care less what her surname is, but the
youngest will be proud to take my name - unfortunately she sees that as
a betrayal to her mother - until I explained that she would have the same
surname also when we get married ps one of the reasons we don't get married
- its worth 160 pounds a month in tax relief on our mortgage.

Phewwwww

That's all for now, sorry if I ramble.

David.

    re .4/.5
    
    You obviously feel very strongly. I respect that. However if I split
    up with my wife (whatever the cause) I would still want to see my
    kids. I would not want to butt in, just be available to them, as
    their father.
    
    I am speaking generically, you are speaking personally and I understand
    why that might cause you to flame.
    
    However I am not here to flame. I merely spoke my opinion. You have
    a different one, let's discuss this rationally. I see no point in
    an irrational exchange of flames.

    Sorry, no flame intended and I wasn't getting at you Andy.
    
    However, I know a few men who have left a family, for whatever reason
    but have never wanted to see their kids - I like you cannot understand
    that - watch the reaction of a father when his kid is in 'terminal'
    danger ie runaway bus or something - then ask him how he would feel
    if the kid died - then ask the same question of that man many moons
    later when he hasnt seen his kids for five years. What is it that
    makes a man _NOT_ want to see his kids. Its not that bulls**t of
    courts or access or anything else, they are glad to be rid of the
    burden. However, how many times have you heard of the saying 'well
    I left because the kids didn't like mum and dad arguing, its best
    that way'. Which is best, growing up fatherless or in an antagonostic
    environment. I feel a new topic coming on - mens(fathers) views
    on divorce.
    
    The flame was not intended, I quite agree with you!. The point about
    maintenance is that some fathers think that money can replace their
    love!. Sorry if my meaning got muddled through the ether.
    
    David.
    

        Re .6
        
        Unfortunately, in  my  exprience,  you are an exception to the
        rule.  My  ex  split  for  California  several  years ago, and
        doesn't even bother to  send  birthday/Christmas  cards to his
        son, and support payments are only received when the Office of
        Child Support Enforcement threatens him in some fashion.
        
        Re .2
        
        I'm looking forward to the three of us being a family, and for
        Andy to step in and be the  father  that  Rob  has  never had.
        His natural father has been nothing but bad news for him since
        the day he was born (he's into drugs and  joblessness) - hence
        our desire to keep him out of our lives.
        
        When  I spoke to a lawyer about adoption, he stated  that  the
        large  majority  of  fathers  in a similar situation will sign
        over their  parental  rights  in  order to escape from support
        payments - doesn't  say  much  for  many divorced fathers, I'm
        afraid.
        
        I believe it's more important in  such  cases for the child to
        be able to form a bond with the new parent.
        
        Sandy
        

    Okay.  I'm feel compelled to "defend" the ex-husband/father-
    type men that I know.  Granted it's a limited sample, but the
    few men I know that are divorced, with children, are/were dev-
    asted by the separation from their children.  It's beautiful
    to hear these men discuss their little ones-they love them so
    very much.
    
    My own personal experience?  Well, I'm living in a fantasyland,
    I think.  Here's the situation:  my former husband (I refer to
    him as my ex-lover) now lives with a woman with 2 children.  Our
    own son visits each of us 50% of the time.  I am also living with
    someone (never married, no kids).  And to top it off, we all work
    together.  So Jamey has 4 "parent" figures who all get along beauti-
    fully.  In fact, my former husbands new friend (this gets complex)
    held me and comforted me when "our" cat died recently.  And all
    4 of us tend to Jamey and take care of him.  In fact, one of the
    "other" children recently spent the night with us.  People here
    at work, who knew Clyde and I before and during our divorce, are
    astounded and confused.  oh well.
    
    As a father, Clyde is wonderful.  He is everything and more that
    a father could be.  I can't praise him highly enough.  He is very
    very generous with child support.  In fact, my goal is to become
    self sufficient so that each of us can pay 50% of our son's ex-
    penses.  I don't feel that child support, in our situation, is
    fair.  However at this point in time it's a necessary evil.  I do
    what I can to make it more fair for Clyde.
    
    And the new man in my life?  Well, for a 30 year old bachelor who
    has had limited exposure to children, he has done remarkably well.
    He spends a lot of time with Jamey-in fact, he's taking care of
    Jamey while the other three of us are in class!  And he is very
    concerned about learning effective ways of dealing with children.
    He feels that he is now a "parent" and takes that responsibility
    to heart.  I have to chuckle sometimes.
    
    
    Well, gee, I've rambled on.  Just wanted to share a positive side
    to divorce, children, et all.  Re-reading this, I realize that I
    have a pretty good life!!  I have much to be thankful for this
    Thanksgiving!
    
    
    
    

    Naturally when I said that fathers should have the right to see
    their children, I did not mean this to include the right to abuse
    them. Maybe I should have said "daddys" not "fathers".
   

	It's time to hear from a father who sees his children growing
up in another home. My wife and 3 small children were stolen from me 
by another man several years ago and there was nothing I could do about
it because she decided she wanted him and not me. Breaking up was bad
enough but then the courts decided I should also pay 250 pounds each
month as maintenance. It was easier for me to find new accomodation
than for my ex + 3 children so I moved out and he moved in. He lasted
about 3 weeks before she threw him out and if I'd known the reason at
the time I'd have been after him, I found out too late that he had
abused everyone in the house one way or another. 
	Another man came on the scene eventually and my ex-wife and he
married and settled down with my kids. I won't pretend that all in the
garden is as rosy as I would like but I'm lucky enough to see my kids as
often as I like and to know they still think of me as "Dad". They call
him dad too but he's their stepfather and it doesn't bother me. They
recently had their surnames changed to his so that the family unit would 
all have the same name and again it doesn't bother me because I talked 
it over with them before I agreed it could be done and they said it did
not change their feelings for anyone involved.
	Why have I put all this down "on paper"? A couple of replies in
this note got my back up a bit and I had to get it off my chest. Sure
there are occasions where a man trots off and leaves his family in the 
lurch and I deplore that. At the same time it must be said that the man
who moves in to comfort a woman who is on her own may not provide the
answer for her. 
	No matter which side of the situation you are looking from, I
hope it works out for you.


Roland

    This discussion has made me aware of things that I didn't (want
    to?) consider.  I'm glad we got to "confer".  I understand the feelings
    of parents whose children have been "taken" from them, and I hope
    (and trust) that this will never happen to me (but then, my parent's
    divorce was just like "on TV").  As Andy mentioned, there is a
    difference between "father" and "dad".  I always want to be a dad.
    
    Men who abuse or (mis)use children may be their father, but won't
    be their (in my opinion) dad.  I don't think that they deserve
    consideration if they ran off and didn't remain in touch with the
    children (it seems to say something, doesn't it?).
    
    Please, don't anyone FLAME on this.  If you want to, send your poison
    pen letter to me personally at galactic address above.
    
    //john
    

    re: 8.1
    
    I am currently living with a woman who has one child, a 2 year old
    daughter.  Both mother and daughter are adjusting to the new family
    very well for the most part, as am I.  I have known Cheryl for quite
    some time, even before her divorce, but they have been living with
    me for only 4 months.  Even though I love both of them very much
    and want to make the situation permanent, I still have a few "kinks"
    to work out in my adjustment to things.
    
    I have been married before but have no children and have had little
    exposure to children. I suppose my biggest concern is that which
    was expressed in the first answer given in 8.1, that being time
    alone with your new wife/lover. It isn't that I don't want the child,
    she's a neat little kid but there is that loss of the luxury of
    just being alone to interact and adjust to each other while the
    rest of the world goes by.
    
    The fortunate aspect to 8.1 is the mention that these concerns go
    away, yielding completely to the joys that a fmaily can bring. I
    too feel less concerned about this as time goes by. My questions
    are this:
    
    	 How long does it take to adjust to the "family routine" for
    those men who have not had their own children? I have headrd anywhere
    from 0 to 6 months depending on the depth of the relationship with
    the mother and the acceptance by the children in the new situation.
    This was based on a very small sample though and I'm curious as
    to the response of others who have made this adjustment.
    
    Also, is this sort of feeling common?  I would suspect that for
    divorced men who have had children, entering a new realtionship
    involving new children would not necessitate the adjustment that
    a man having no previous children would.
    
    Incidently as a side, Cheryl and I are fortunate in the sense that
    the ex-husband is not of the "problem" variety (i.e. abuse,
    abandonment, etc.) and enjoys pleasant visitations with his daughter.
    Tiffany still calls him Daddy and calls me Rich. We think that helps
    eliminate confusion and allows (hopefully) the ex to maintain a
    feeling of "fatherism".
    
    For those considering "instant family", by no means be discouraged.
    I found it a little different at first but so far it's all been
    worth the extra adjustment and its gettin' better every day.

    Re: .17
    
    You have hit upon a problem that I encountered, that of time with
    ones 'wife' with the instant family. My wife admits that for the
    first six months we knew each other, she 'neglected' her children
    ie she got an au pair, got a full time job etc and went out with
    me. With the normal relationship, you can plan when to have children,
    at a time that is mutually acceptable to both partners. I think
    also it depends on the ages of the children, hers were 3 and 8.
    Suddenly, from being free and easy, there were baby sitters to
    organise, schooling to think about etc etc. One doesnt have the
    luxury of nine months to get used to the idea.
    
    I was 'one of the lads', no ties whatsoever and it took about 6
    months to settle into the family.
    
    David
    

    I have just finished reading this note and would like to share another
    viewpoint about father's who are absent.  My parents split when
    I was six years old.  I did not see my father for years at a time,
    but he was also on my mind.  I never had to deal with a new father,
    but do want to share that I had some feelings that had no basis
    in reality about my father.
    
    No matter what he did I still loved him; he was my father.  
    
    I just wanted to raise an awareness that the children involved have
    a totally different view.  Be sensitive to what you say about the
    father in front of your children. 
    
    deb
    

    
    
    Better late than never huh..  well... I have had the opertunity
    to have a relationship with a woman that has a ready-made family.
    I WAS to become part of that family.  She was terrrific.. all *I*
    could ask from a woman and more...  except, (there's always one
    of these)... I disagreed of how she was rearing the children...
    Not being my children - I know it's not my place to repremand them
    in any way UNLESS we were married.  They'll have their share of
    problems in this world like the rest of us, but there were little
    things that in my eye counted and in hers, didn't.  I only once
    made any direct repremandations... I was to 'watch' the kids while
    she was out for a while...  my request was ignored and I felt a
    lack of respect for the relationship which was to be in the future.
    Needless to say... I may never find a woman to match her qualities
    again (but I'm looking), but I would think real seriously and try
    to weigh everything as unbiased as I possibly could, BEFORE making
    that final commitment.
    
    As a side note... her youngest is 8.    I was 3 when my mom remarried.
    I truely believe that the age of the child, at the time someone
    is to enter their life (such as a step parent), would make a world
    of difference.
    

    I'm finding myself in a new situation in regards to the subject
    matter in this particular note.
    I am a father "Daddy" to be more precise - and divorced...
    the new situation is dealing with my "X" new "SO".  I'm
    finding myself at odds with him in different situations re:visitation
    times, paperwork for my special needs son, etc.  I'm not sure if
    Sue "x" is putting him there or if he is there on his own.  The
    feeling I get sometimes is competitiveness.  Sometimes I'm not sure
    how to deal with this new person, I feel intruded on somehow.
    I love my children very much and am committed to them 100% and I
    dont want this competitive stuff to get in the way.
    
    

    The advice from other non-custodial parents seems to be that you should
    do everything you can to maintain your relationship with your sons. If
    your visitation is limited, then get on the telephone (this might work
    better with Timothy than Nick :). It will be really unfortunate if your
    soon-to-be-ex-wife's boyfriend tries to set himself up as a rival. He
    will almost certainly want to be close to the boys, but there's no
    reason why BOTH of you can't be close (I write as a step-father, where
    my step-daughters' father is terminally jealous of his relationship as
    their father -- to everyone's detriment). Perhaps you could suggest
    that "Daddy" be reserved for you, and that he is addressed by some
    other phrase like "Pop" or "Old Man."
    
    You will find better advice than mine in QUOKKA::NON_CUSTODIAL_PARENTS.

    re.25
    Can you guys just have a separation without the formal divorce.
     Concentrate a bit on yourself and take care of yourself.  After
    awhile, your wife will realize that making it on your own with 2
    young kis is very hard.  And if you are still willing then, perhaps
    you two can talk again.

    Yeah I suggested that but she wants to go for evrything.. I really
    don't know why.. but she does..( but nov 22nd.. it will be 1year going
    trough living hell) and its been 6 weeks today that i've been waiting
    for paper work from her lawyer.. For a 5 minute change to the
    stipulation.. funny for someone who says she really wants it and hasn't
    really done anything with it..