Conference quark::human_relations

    WOW!!!!!
    
    If I were *you*, I would run not walk to the nearest lawyer.  Your
    situation sounds awful and my question to you is:  Why are you 
    putting up with it???
    
    I would suggest that you first talk to a lawyer (a person that you
    trust), go in prepared with a list of questions and follow his/her
    advice.  If it benefits you to stay in the house with your child then
    do that, just get him out.  He sounds real sick and very nasty.  It
    doesn't (but it should) surprise me that he's a police officer.
    
    If he isn't "playing around" then he's one hell of an actor.
    
    I'm sorry that you are going through all this.  You and your daughter
    deserve better.  
    
    I suspect that it's going to get rough for you but hang in there and
    stay STRONG...
    
    JL 
                                                         

    Before taking the 'easy way out', and seek a divorce, I'd say you
    should try making this relationship work one way or the other.  It may
    *not* work, but until the issues have been confronted in a
    non-threatening way, there isn't a chance for it to work.  There might
    be some way to get your husband to reassess his behavior and find out
    why he's being a jerk.
    
    Divorce isn't easy.     
    
    -rich
    Mass Storage Engineering OEM D&SG  SHR1-3/O13    DTN:  237-2124
    Work: braun@leds.enet.dec.com                      508-841-2124
    Home: richb@pioneer.ci.net

    You say you are a new mother of a few weeks and have been married 2
    years. If the existence of these children were known to you before you
    married and they come from two different sources, did it ever occur to
    you, since one had to only be 2 when you first married, that there
    might be something of a problem here?  
    
    The previous note-59 is not that similar in scope.  The end
    symptom may sound somewhat alike, but the underlying cause
    seems to be diffent.  Here you have a pattern that should have 
    been obvious, of movement among people...that
    seems to be continuing.  It almost seems that the environment
    your husband is continuing to move within encourages his behaviour
    of being a chaser.  The people he is friends with, the places he
    works and the company he keeps.
    There are lots of questions you have to ask yourslef before
    you really can consider destroying a marriage, but, having
    thoroughly investigated it, there are sometimes compelling reasons
    not to continue...under current unchangeable circumstances.  For
    example:
    What are you like?  What did you know about all of this before you 
    met him.  Did you ever meet his friends, did you know about his
    former children/ex's and why he was no longer with them?  Did
    you think you could change him?  Did you change and expect him
    to change, or did you talk about it and you hoped you would be
    able to change him?  Did you think having a child would settle him
    down?(Obviously previous children have not)  
    The questions above are not meant to be cruel, only objective.
    You have placed a note here and you sound like the victim. I
    don't think any of us are prfessionals, but we do care and 
    it is difficult to understand(at least for me) what all is going
    on from just your description and request on how to get a divorce.
    
    It is true from your description that it sure sounds unbearable, but
    it is not uncommon for people your ages to try and cling to adolescent
    an irresponsible behavior for as long as possible before ever
    growing up.  Some people never wake up or certainly don't at the
    same rate as their partner.  It could be that motherhood for you 
    has solidified your commitment to life, that of your precious child
    and your future.  He doesn't figure into it right now and you
    justifiably want to run. Running has its merits for the moment...there
    is a term like "geographic thearpy" that comes to mind which
    running or separating accomplishes, but it does not always resolve
    your feelings, or the situation.
    
    There are a number of books on subjects realted to what you are going
    through.  One, is "Love Must Be Tough" by Dr. James Dobson that
    asks you, the victim, or certainly the oppressed spouse, not to
    show or let on to your spouse that you are reading it. It then
    gives several examples of couples that are having problems and
    gives some ideas and directions on what to do about it.  Although
    it will not tell "Your" story, it might come close.  The bottom
    line is that if your spouse sees no reason to change his behaviour,
    i.e. he can do anything-lie, cheat, come home late, etc. and you
    are always there, then why should he change.  On the other hand,
    if you change and he really cares, then he will either reach the
    conclusion that he must change to keep you, or he never really
    (at the present at least) cared that much.  The result may be a 
    shock for you-i.e. he doesn't really care, he comes crawling back,
    crys and gets you to change back and then starts doing it all over,
    or wakes up, and goes into some kind of therapy with you.  In any
    event, it suggests tactics to trigger a crisis that will get you
    some kind of answer.  Also, in any event, it helps you make a course
    of action plan.(If you have access to a Christian bookstore, they
    can either order it or may have it.)
    
    Another good book from a really strange source is one by the
    well known author of How to Win Friends and Influence People,
    Dale Carneige.  He wrote another book I discovered called
    How to Stop Worring and Begin Living.  He states in the first
    part of his book that if you do not find a method to get control
    of your life by page 44, you should get rid of the book.  That
    book should be in your local library.  Just one jem in that book
    is the three step suggestion of 1. Write down what the abosolute
    worst thing could be that could happen to you in your present
    condition.  2. Create a plan on how to deal with it. 3. Act on the
    plan.
    
    While Divorce, legally, can be achieved by following a step by step
    process, it can be really difficult for you to get a fair legal
    settlement(particularly in this case since there are other women
    he probably already owes something to and because courts usually
    do not have the time to follow up and make sure every little letter of
    the agreement is followed-child support only being one) without
    witnesses and money.  With a new child, a young marriage, you being
    young, I doubt if you have that kind of cash reserve.  On the other
    hand, you may find, that after exploring everything, it is the only
    thing to do.  Don't take this lightly.  
    Do you have pastor/bishop/priest you can talk to?  If you work for 
    Digital, have you contacted the EAP group to talk to a counselor, 
    etc. etc.  I would say you have taken the first steps by asking for
    some kind of feedback from this note file.  However, you need someone
    local that can mentor you confidentially and help you come to grips
    with you first.  What you want, what is best for you, what you will
    and will not accept.  Then what is best for the family-realistically.
    
    You have a lot of work ahead, but believe me, there are professionals
    and some good books out there-along with friends and supporters that
    can help.  Keep asking and get a plan together.  His irresponsibility
    is no match for a plan.
    
    ...may we share with your pain and may you find peace for your heart
    Jim

    He is proclaiming quite well who he is, sample:
    a man with three children from three different women... who knows how
    many more victims will there be?
    
    If I were you I would have thoroughly checked his past, you must have
    known of his children BEFORE you married him... it is sad to see the
    lack of responsibility he shows, but on the other hand... he does NOT
    hide it either.  Behaviors in adults seldom change, I don't see a
    chance of changing behaviors in this situation.
    
    "I" would demand from him responsibility towards marriage and family with
    a very serious and profound conversation.
    
    I would confront him very directly and explain his responsibility to
    YOU and to his CHILDREN, the things he does WELL and the things he
    SHOULD not do; what you expect from HIM and what he expects from YOU,
    and then, after everything is on the table, and have everything fully
    discussed and gone over, then, make a decision on what is best for all
    of you INCLUDING the children, who in my opinion are always the victims
    of whatever decision their parents, court judges, and adults in general 
    do on their behalf... (kids cannot choose, only take whatever comes their
    way, either they like it or not).  Kids have a right to grow in a
    family, have a right to "belong", to find themselves secure in their
    environment, it is the only way to have them grown into adults with
    positive self-steem, good self-image and solid foundation to create
    families of their own with these same similarities...
    
    dont forget that the kids of today will be the adults of tomorrow,
    we, (humanity), deserve the BEST we can get!

    
    	He sounds like a sex-addict to me. At least what you've written
    about him suggests it...especially given that his "favorite phrase" is 
    
    	"I'm grown and can do what I want to do when I want to". 
    
    	Apparently, regardless of whatever trails of devestation and
    tragedy he leaves behind. And, whatever happens to you! I think the
    "pubic lice" incident would have been the cut-off point for me; I
    cant imagine a more clear cut *indicator* that by sleeping with this
    man, you're essentially playing Russian Roulette with your own life!
    
    	There's nothing you can do for him and his choice of behavior.
    You do have your own choices around your own wellbeing, both physically
    and emotionally. Given what you described, it is my personal feeling
    that a *perfectly legitimate* choice for you would be to get yourself 
    and your child as far away from this person as possible! 
    
    	Let him go off and be who he is; he'll be "okay" as far as your 
    responsibility is concerned. I believe your responsibility to yourself 
    and your child is a *priority* over what happens to him or whatever -
    
    	I'm just disagreeing with some of the "oh you can work it out"
    replies. To which I say "fat chance" and "good luck" and, not to be
    flip, BUT...It's my guess that the only thing that's going to get
    someone as you've described to change is for them to realize something
    like: "Gee, all my wives left me for some reason...I wonder what is it 
    about *me* that drove them all off?" or "Gee, now that I'm HIV positive...
    I wonder what it is about *me* that thought I could just get away with 
    having whomever I wanted, whenever I wanted it, regardless of whoever I 
    hurt, or whatever became of my actions?"
    
    	I pray that it doesnt come to that second scenario for him,
    although it's certainly in the realm of possibility...you *know* that. 
    Even to allow yourself to be tied emotionally, physically, financially to 
    someone who's abusing themselves in that way...is allowing abuse to happen 
    to *you*. How do you stop that kind of abuse? Simply cut the ties...
    
    	Hope this helps you somehow,
    
    	Joe

    HI
    
    
    the Author of Note 60 ask a question on How does one go about getting
    a divorce..
    
    I am writing this reply for a friend who has the same questions.
    
    can someone please tell us the steps for a divorce.
    
    also
    
    My friend says that he has heard that there is another way to get a 
    divorce without using lawyers. something like a modorator (professional
    Name ???). any help on that????
    
    plus how long before a divorce goes threw??
    
    thank you
      

    Re .6: The actual legal requirements vary from state to state, so
    advice from someone who doesn't live where you do might not do you much
    good. At the least you'd need to state where you live and whether your
    divorce will be uncontested or is more complicated.
    
    As for .0, since the issues involve child custody, I'd *strongly*
    recommend that the author of .0 get in touch with a lawyer at once.
    Steps such as taking the child and leaving without notice can have
    unfortunate effects on future custody hearings.
    
    My experience with lawyers is limited (for which I am very thankful!),
    but I believe in most places you can get a consultation for a
    relatively small fee, perhaps even over the phone; you'd be able to
    provide the details of your particular situation, and find out what
    steps are required, which are optional but may be recommended in your
    case, and how long it's all likely to take.
    
    Again, for divorce cases involving possible custody battles or other
    adversarial situations, run, do not walk, to get some legal advice.
    While noters' experiences and advice may be helpful, there's no
    guarantee that it will exactly match your situation, so you'll have to
    talk to someone in the legal system eventually...
    
    -b

The actual details differ depending on where you live, so the advice to
see a lawyer (preferably one who is familiar with what is called "family law")
is the best.  If the two of you are agreed on all details, have no children
and have few assets, the lawyer's involvement can be minimal, but see one
anyway.  The initial consultation is usually free (but ask in advance.)

The steps usually followed are these:

	One of the parties files for divorce. 
	Lawyer writes up the request, including requests for
	temporary custody, expenses, etc. and files it with
	the county.
	The Sherrif's office "serves" the other party with the
	papers.
	The couple (with their lawyers; each should have one) come up
	with an agreement regarding custody, asset division, etc.
	This agreement (called a "stipulation") is filed with the court;
	if it looks reasonable, the court will issue a divorce decree.
	The decree may not become "final" for some period, which varies
	from state to state.

This assumes an uncontested divorce with no arguments about custody,
assets, etc.  If there are arguments, it gets more complicated.

A mediator can be used to negotiate differences between the couple, but this
does not eliminate the need for a lawyer.

					Steve

    Re: the question about how long it takes.
    
    My own parents' divorce took all their mental energies from October
    1974 through summer 1976.
    
    Prepare yourself for at least a year, as much as three years, of
    fighting and recriminations.  (Harsh truth, I know, and I'm sorry
    the situation seems to have comedown to this.)
                                                
    -rich
    Mass Storage Engineering OEM D&SG  SHR1-3/O13    DTN:  237-2124
    Work: braun@leds.enet.dec.com                      508-841-2124
    Home: richb@pioneer.ci.net

It took me six months, and most of that was taken up with ironing out
details of the final stipulation.  It could have been shorter.  This was
in New Hampshire.

				Steve

    I'm recently divorced and I used mediation (in New Hampshire), but
    everything I've read said that if there are children involved you
    need to get legal advice from a lawyer.  I have no children and 
    we managed to complete our divorce fairly with only one lawyer who
    read and wrote up our final agreement.  You definately need a 
    lawyer who can help you decide what's in the best interests of you
    and your child.  Mediation might be a partial option for you, (I'm
    not sure) but it only works if the two of you are able to sit and 
    discuss the situation together.  The mediators I used will not talk 
    with one member of a couple.  They insist on meeting the two together 
    and that everything be done with the other's knowledge and consent.  
    
    Good luck.  Whatever happens it won't be easy, so please take care
    of yourself and allow friends and family to help you through it.
    
    Karen.

    
    from author of reply .6
    
    Sorry I did not put all the information.
    
    My friend lives in Mass, no children, there is a house co-owned by
    husband and wife. they want to split everything 50-50(including bills).
    
    Can someone tell us more about MEDIATION...
    
    I heard Mediation saves a lot of money. can someone tell us about how
    much you save..(half,quarter)
    
    Around how much will a lawyer cost in this case?.
    
    how much money does a lawyer need up front???
    
    how much does a mediator need up front?
    
    so far my friend and his wife want the divorce to go as smoothly as
    possible.
    
    thanks

A mediator will only save money if the alternative is using a lawyer to
go back and forth over disagreements.  If there are no disagreements, then
a mediator isn't needed and doesn't save money.

An uncontested divorce can cost under $500.  Ask the lawyers you speak with
what their fees are and how they expect payment.  Some sort of initial
retainer is usually expected. 

					Steve

    I live in Massachusetts and my exhusband and I got a divorce about 14
    years ago using ONE lawyer. We had a house and child too. It certainly
    can be done. We had to have a child support/care agreement plus a
    financial agreement settled before we went to court. It cost us under
    $500 dollars (I think it was as low as $250). Basically it has worked
    out for all.....some minor glitches....but on the whole OK. The best
    part about it is the fact that my son has told me he has never felt
    like most other kids that have gone through a divorce. He thought it
    was 'normal' to have mom live in one place and dad in another. He has
    a strong relationship with us both. I'm not going to say that 
    everything was clear sailing......obviously if you're getting a
    divorce there are problems......but if you and your spouse can keep
    it on a non confrontational level you can certainly negotiate your
    own divorce. I am still friends with my exhusband today. My son....
    who is almost 18... continues to travel back and forth between his two
    homes willingly.   His father remarried a few years back and my son
    now has a brother who he adores and who adores him. Some states have
    'do it yourself' divorces....check with your local government. I
    personally would recommend that path. I think when you get two lawyers
    involved you're in trouble.
    Good luck to you.
    

    I have seen the messiest divorce ever... and that involved two lawyers,
    representing the parties...The couple had a beautiful home appraised in
    close to 450,000, and three children out of college with the exception
    of the joungest.  They also had some properties in an island... well,
    the husband is penniless, the wife is struggling to pay the mortgage
    and some debts that the husband incurred in (he created his own company
    after taking  an early retirement... and lost everything he put into
    it). The house cannot be sold till the divorse is final so she has to
    keep on paying the bills, and both lawyers keep on fighting with each
    other and having hearings to get what to whom... after almost a year,
    she got the house (with all debts), and half a property in the island,
    she owes her layer almost $80,000 so she has to sell the house, deduct
    the leans on it, pay the lawyer... and end up almost destitute!
    
    The layer is $80,000 richer; the parties don't talk to each other;
    the children don't want to see their father, are bitter with both, and 
    they must strugle to keep on with life... that's the end of a nice
    looking family, a marriage of 32 years...
    
    If a divorce is unavoidable... I would go to any length to make it the
    most amiable or easy as could be possible.
    
    (My own thoughts after this is... if "ever" should happen to me I would
    just take my clothes, say good bye and go back home. I would have NOTHING 
    to do with money...have IT ALL!. I would think...if I started in life
    with nothing, and built whatever we could, together, and if there is an
    end... it would be also with nothing. I don't think I would ever FIGHT and
    antagonize my family, and loose them, not for all the MONEY in the world).
    
    I have seen too many families destroyed for money and to me, it is not 
    worth it.

Re .15:

>    (My own thoughts after this is... if "ever" should happen to me I would
>    just take my clothes, say good bye and go back home. I would have NOTHING 
>    to do with money...have IT ALL!. I would think...if I started in life
>    with nothing, and built whatever we could, together, and if there is an
>    end... it would be also with nothing. I don't think I would ever FIGHT and
>    antagonize my family, and loose them, not for all the MONEY in the world).
>    
>    I have seen too many families destroyed for money and to me, it is not 
>    worth it.

Unfortunately, in most divorces in the US, at least one of the spouses,
generally the husband, does not have the option of simply "tak[ing] my clothes,
say[ing] good bye and go[ing] back home".

Even if he or she didn't care about losing some or all present assets,
he or she can end up with substantial and often unbearable future obligations
in a process which has precious little to do with fairness, equity or justice. 

-stephen

    There are no winners in a divorce...usually one party
    is stuck with debts and usually one party is trying to draw
    blood from a stone....very few marriages end somewhat friendly.
    If you really feel you want to go through with a divorce, try
    to settle outside court first or try to settle with the help
    of just one lawyer for both parties. Two seperate lawyers CAN
    slow down things...not necessarely but it can happen...
    miscommunication, one of the two lawyers is always either in
    court or on vacation...it can be tough getting things done
    this way....I know of such a case where both parties were
    willing to settle, where in the beginning of the procedure
    things could have been settled without much hassle but the
    two lawyers just didnt seem to get their act together...this
    not so complicated divorce is dragging for over a year now...
    
    TJ

.0
>    ... custody of his 4 year old daughter.  Her mother (different from his
>    son) was trying to get support from my husband 

A lot of public libraries have "pamphlet files" where the
librarians keep pamphlets and other info covered state and local law.
Since divorce is regulatd by state law, it might be worthwhile to
ask the reference librarian at the local public library about such
literature. 

>    just leave and take my daughter without telling him where I am?  

Some lawyers (and perhaps state law) could describe this as
desertion on your part.  You would probably be best off talking to a 
lawyet before you said *anything* to your husband.  Since he has not
supported his first daugter, there is no reason to think he would 
be anything but utterly dreadful to you and your baby.

Best of luck.  

    If there are any men in here who have been screwed by divorce, and
    would like to offer advice, please send me mail. I live in Mass
    and I know I'll get screwed, which is something I'm not willing to
    accept.
    
    Thanks,
    Mike

Re: .19

Wouldn't you be better off looking for advice from men who DIDN'T get screwed
in their divorce?

Circumstances vary tremendously, but it seems to me that adopting an
initial hostile attitude is a good way to guarantee getting screwed.  Stick
up for what you believe in, but avoid waging war and remember that you'll
be dealing with the after-effects for the rest of your life.

				Steve

See also note 6 in QUARK::MENNOTES.

		Steve

    My husband and I were married in Connecticut -- I now live in Mass
    (have for about six months), he still lives in CT.  
    
    I expect to file for divorce soon, the main thing that is stopping me
    is money (the around $500 bucks is what I expected -- I assume this is
    for thekit and kaboodle, not per lawyer?  ie, I pay $500 and he pays
    $500?).  We have no kids, no property, we divvied everything up when we
    took our leave of each other.  As he made very little money and I made
    the vast majority of money, I've also paid off most of his bills and am
    stuck with the bulk of remainder, which was carried over from before we
    were married.  Bills, houses, cars, etc, are not an issue.  I just
    want, to put not too fine a point on it, to be rid of the legalities of
    marriage and get it over with.  The less I have to interact with my
    husband, the better for me, emotionally and otherwise.  I fully expect
    that he will not contest the divorce and since everything is settled up
    already (save for me carrying him on my health insurance), there's
    really nothing but the paperwork.
    
    My questing:  Since I was married in CT, do I have to get a divorce in
    CT?  Does that mean I have to go get a lawyer down there?  I'd rather
    not, since that's a good 80 miles from my house.  Can I get a lawyer up
    here and have them do whatever needs to be done without me running
    hither and yon?  I guess, if the court needs to bang a gavel or
    something, I'd have to show up for that, but boy, if there's a way to
    do this in a relatively painless fashion, I'd love to hear about it.
    
    
    Thanks,
    
    kim

    
    Hi
    
    The replies on this topic have been very helpful.
    
    I have a few more questions.
    
    In my divorce the House will be given to the wife. My qusetion is that
    if the house is signed over to my wife threw the paperwork that the
    lawyer make out, what happenes with the morgage company. both our
    names are on the morgage. even if my wife has the house legally, what
    happenes if she falls behind on the payments, will I get bad credit
    because my name is on the morgage.
    
    Same with the Car, she will get the car but my name is on the loan.
    I bought the car before we got married. 
    
    what about if she sells the house and my name in on the morgage?
    
    We both wanted to use the same lawyer but we were told by a number
    of lawyers that we cannot because of conflict of interest.
    
    thanks

    Re:  .23.  I was in a similar situation regarding owning a piece of
    property with both names on the mortgage.  From your description, it
    sounds as though you are signing your interest in the property over to
    her, but that does not remove your name from the mortgage as far as the
    bank is concerned.  If she defaults on payments, you are still half
    responsible according to the bank.  I believe the benefit of signing
    over the deed(?) is that if she fails to meet her share of the
    signed agreement, you can then turn around and sue her when the bank
    comes after you for payment.
    
    The best way to make her fully responsible is to re-write the loan and
    remove your name.  In our case, were we to pursue that avenue, it meant
    starting from scratch...paying off the old mortgage (big loss) and
    closing all over again on a new loan.
    
    

    One more thing...
    
    If you sign over to her and she sells the house, she takes all profit
    assuming there is one, or assumes responsibility for all losses if that
    is the case.
    
    Any loan that is in your name, you are responsible for financially. 
    Any payment your wife defaults on while your name is on the loan will
    ultimately mess up your credit.
    

Re: .22

Kim, it doesn't matter where you were married.  You can file for divorce
wherever you live now.  In your situation, it may be very inexpensive (perhaps
$500 for the both of you).  Consult a lawyer immediately; the first visit
is usually free.


				Steve

    Thanks, Steve.  That's kinda what I was hoping for, being able to file
    no matter where (I was wondering what happens when people who marry in,
    say, Utah, move to Florida and want to get a divorce.  I didn't think
    they'd have to go back to Utah....)
                                
    
    cheers,
    
    kim

Of course, there are sometimes arguments about where to file when, as is
your case, the husband and wife live in different states.  (A celebrated
recent case was the Burt and Loni divorce; Loni wanted to file in Florida,
Burt in California (or was it the other way around?))

				Steve

    Heck, take a vacation in Mexico and get a Mexican divorce.  :-)
    Actually it might be fun but not quite recognized everywhere
    so you'd better not.
    
    Re the Mortgage question:  AS long as the mortgage exists, it
    shows up on your credit sheet as a potential liability and will
    be taken into account whenever you apply for a loan.  That's
    especially bad if you want another mortgage somewhere.  I lucked
    out when she refinanced to get a lower rate than the 9 1/4% on
    the old mortgage.  Ditto for the car loan except it's likely to get
    paid off sooner.
    
    ed

    The lawyer costs can be minimized of you have a plan.  Call the Mass
    Bar Association for a referral for someone in your area.  They will
    give you one or two within a driving distance that will give a free 1/2
    hour referral.  Usually during that time, if you have your questions
    organized and you have announced the purpose for your visit and the
    fact of getting their name from the Bar Association, they can fix some
    relatively simple guidelines for you.
    
    The things that cost money are the preparations, phone calls,
    etc.  One of you should have a lawyer draw up some papers, like
    rewriting the deed in whoever's name.  You then can take that
    assignment of deed(usually for $1.00) to a notary for signatures of you
    and your spouse, and then drive it into the Registry of Deeds,
    yourself, and file it for the $25. filing fee.  That takes care of the
    deed reassignment.  The names off the mortgage you can work with the
    bank.(It may constitute a couple of things if the land is on a separate
    deal than the structure, but they are usually on the same deed.)
    Each step and each phone call and each review by the lawyer costs, so
    whatever you can do yourself, saves.
    
    
    As to the the other set up costs, the trick is to have a fairly well
    agreed upon settlement that can be entered into a canned on line
    program that most good lawyers have.(Ask yours over the phone, before
    you go in for your free consult if they do Divorce cases and if they
    have the standard stuff on line.) To enter your details makes it
    shorter and less expensive. 
    
    If there is no contesting the details, then it is fairly straight
    forward, but ask for a ball park.  They can be "into it" and talk,
    talk, talk, etc, and you will find that your projected $500 easily
    exceeds $1000-2000.
    
    Not a nice thing to go through,  Kim, but it sounds like you have got
    your head together, have agreement from him as to what you want to do
    and have the details pretty well mapped out.  
    
    Good Luck,
    
    Jim