Conference quark::human_relations

    
    	I'll say it: It's okay to want to feel as important as this guy's
    mother in law. She isnt sleeping with him...
    
    	>I felt like everyone, except my feelings were taken into
    	>consideration. Like he was ashamed of me or the situation. It
    	>really hurt to hear he wasn't comfortable waking up with me with
    	>his kids there..and maybe he is right not to let his children
    	>aware of what was going on but it still hurt like hell. Why did he
    	>have me in the first place stay over?
    
    	Of course it hurt! You're going to have to tell him that. You might
    want to offer him some space with it, based on a statement like "I'm
    NOT willing to be hurt in this way again". It's certainly something to
    discuss further with him. I think it's entirely appropriate for you to
    know all his thoughts on whether it's right for the children to "know". 
    I also think it's entirely appropriate for you to be able to offer your
    opinion and have that considered.
    
    	It sounds like a pretty heavy situation. You didnt say specifically
    how long it was since his wife died, so it's hard to guage the
    "gravity". You're stepping into a position that was once held by "his
    wife" and "the children's mother"; that position needs to be...pretty
    free and clear. I have no idea where these people are in their process
    of grieving their loss, certainly that's something which would clutter
    things up for you.
    
    	I can see that this fella hasnt cleared up everything yet. I mean,
    you never *totally* do, but he still feels (apparently) a sense of 
    loyalty to his deceased wife and her family. Honestly, it's none of his
    mother-in-law's business what he's personally doing relationship wise!!!
    Yet, he still feels he owes her an explanation. There's still an
    attachment there on some level, that needs to be let go of. (Even if
    I got the wrong mother in law, some of what I said still applies)
    
    	I'm sure that his two kids would *love* to have you in their life 
    and I'm sure they love to seeing their dad "happy" again, in his being
    affectionate with you. I think if they had a problem with you, it would
    have come out when you played with them or when you were physically
    close to their father. I dont think it's "the kids" at all, I think
    that's just a cover up for the real reason. You deserve to know
    precisely what that is. If he can say that there's still some degree of
    attachment and loyalty to his deceased wife, ask him if he thinks he'll
    be able to not allow that to effect things to such a degree that you
    end up in hellish pain! There's nothing selfish about that.
    
    	Hope this helps,
    
    	Joe
    

    I can talk from experience here being in the same shoes as the male in
    this case.  It is hard to get on with life when it deals with a new
    relationship after your spouce's death.  For me all kinds of I should
    and shouldn't kept popping in my head.  Most of which centered around
    should my kids see me with another before we are married or even a
    committed couple.  What kind of role model is that?  Divorced people go
    through the same thing but the anger part isn't as large.
    
    It strike me odd that you have a problem expressing you feelings to him
    but don't have a problem sleeping with him with the kids around.  For
    me, I would shy away from the sleeping situation with kids present until 
    I was more secure in the relationship.  I don't want my kids to think 
    they may find anyone in the house when they wake up.  If the relationship 
    has developed then fine.  How long do you wait is up to the two of you.
    Relax, it'll come if it was meant to be.
    
    Your feeling are your and you have the right to them.  So does everyone
    else in the relationship.  The kids feeling are what is going to really
    matter to him.  His feeling for his wife may still be surfacing.  It
    took me 6 months to a year to get a grip on thoses.  Some people never
    let go and others are unfazed.
    
    Oh and the outlaws, they will never be happy.
    
    Good luck and take it slow.  Be prepared to give alot and not get much
    in return for a while.  The kids will consume alot of his and your
    time.  Pushing the relationship may cause him to back out.  Lots of
    things for him to work out as well as yourself.
    
    Dave

	My take on this is that what he did seems perfectly reasonable to me.
If I had kids, I would have to take their feelings into account in a BIG way.
After all, kids don't have the wisdom and experience to understand all the
ramifications of adult actions (but then, neither do a lot of adults!).  So
under like circumstances I might have done something similar.  HOWEVER, he
*should* have talked to you first.  To just skulk away in the night isn't right.
Perhaps he thought you would "just understand", as in it was so obvious it
didn't need to be talked about.  That's not an excuse, just a possible
explanation.


	I would bring this up to him and explain how doing what he did made you
feel.  It may prevent another occurrence.



Brian

    I don't agree with your boyfriend's actions of leaving you in the 
    middle of the night, nor lying to his ex-mother-in-law that he slept 
    on the couch, just to cover some embarassment or save face.  Maybe he 
    was just trying to spare her feelings a bit since it was her daughter 
    that died.  "Outta site, outta mind" can hurt.
    
    Like the previous noter mentioned, you didn't say how recently his 
    wife had passed on, so most likely that was the  case... loyalty to 
    everyone's feelings.  The first time you have to tell ex-family members 
    there's a new love in your life, it can take everyone some getting 
    used to.  Especially young kids or "outlaws" who may still be close.
    
    Either way, you're both grown adults and you DON'T owe anybody an
    explanation.  If a couple is ready to sleep together (emotionally), 
    then I think they should be okay enough to wake up with each other
    in the morning regardless of who knows.  You both own that one.
    
    My advice is to sit down in private with him and tell him how hurt it 
    made you feel.  Ask him if he's really "dealing with getting over his 
    wife's death" yet and if not, maybe he and his kids should seek some
    grief counseling before your relationship goes any further.  
    
    No two people who really love each other should EVER have to hide it.
    Being sensitive and polite is one thing... being ashamed is another.
    Maybe it's just timing.  Don't live with a ghost.  If he's not coping 
    yet, you both need to give it a while until he's ready to embrace a 
    new love.  Either way, do tell him how you feel.  And do it soon.
    
    Honesty saves relationships!
    
    Good luck,
    Leslie 
    
    

    Basenoter did say "wife passed [away] last September", so we do know
    the timeframe.
    
    I think that if I were in the basenoter's situation, I'd follow advice
    given in here (talk privately with her SO) and if I felt that being
    intimate was something I wanted to continue at this point (as opposed
    to waiting X amount of time to see how the rest of the relationship
    develops), I would then move it elsewhere.  My concern would be
    (solely) for the kids.
    
    Leslie

    re: .5 (Leslie)
    
    You're right.  It was last September.  Sorry, I must've missed that.
    
    Anyway, I still think talking is the best option. He obviously needs
    to work through some things before he can openly express affection
    (besides just cuddling on the couch).  I would certainly consider
    the kids' feelings as well and see if they could attend some sort
    of family counseling before the relationship proceeds any further.
    Sooner or later these things will have to come up.  Better to deal 
    with it NOW than to wait till someone gets their heart smashed...
    
    Best of luck to you, basenoter.  Let us know how it goes!
    
    Leslie 
    
    

    
    	Wow - I missed that one too. Guess I began reading after the first
    paragraph!
    
    	Ordinarily - and there are exceptions more or less - someone needs a
    year before they're emotionally "ready" for love, after such a
    significant loss. 
    
    	It's also common for someone to get into the first available
    relationship, _then_ find that it really provides no long-term relief 
    from having to deal emotionally with the pain of their loss.
    
    	His discomfort might be connected to the idea that your presence
    may deprive the children of getting to feel their grief for their lost
    mother. My guess would be that they already have; young children are
    typically quite fluent in working through their sorrow, it's the older
    kids and adults who commonly are not. (the reason for this is left as
    a homework assignment) As I said, if they had an issue with your being
    around, it probably would have shown up when you played with them and
    when they saw you being physically close to their father.
    
    	Joe

First of all, thank you all for responding.  I have read through your
responses a few times trying to let them sink in.  And thank you
for acknowledging my feeling hurt is not being selfish.

I think that everyone brought up issues I am dealing with and you
are all saying similar things. On my issues,  a couple of
you brought up my feeling insecure in the relationship and
someone really hit a nerve with me, in that it being the first relationship
he got into after his wife's death. This does worry me. I sometimes
wonder if I just came into his life at a time where he really needed
someone and he just latched on to me. On the surface he says things 
like before he met me he was very lonely...his kids are his life but
he was very lonely, he is always telling me how important I am to him , 
he  discusses his personal finances with me, his business, he's even a
little
jealous when other men show me attention and like I said before he said he
said
he thought he was falling in love with me,  he misses me when were not
together
etc. So on the surface , to me, I was feeling somewhat secure until
the "waking up alone" issue.  I was always concerned because I didn't
think it was that long before his wife died that he started seeing me. So I
don't know if its grief talking or if it genuine. And if it is
grief does he even know how he really feels?  Again on the surface and from 
everything I've seen (except what the notes about) he is very upbeat,
outgoing ,
caring , fun loving affectionate person. 

As far as the kids:
After reading all the replies, I know now it is not the kids that are
the problem or the real issue at all.  They are not having
a problem with me at all. They are always asking when can I stay over
or when can they stay over my house. (meaning they like having me around
not that they mean for me to sleep with dad, I don't believe they think
that way..my point is they don't resent me being in the house) Recently my
SO
was sick and I  was away and I  did not see the him or the kids for over a 
week, when I did see them the youngest ran immediately to me and
wanted a hug and the older wanted to sit by me while watching tV (the
older is very shy so asking to sit by me was like a great big hug)
So if me and my SO can get thru this sleeping over issue, I don't
think the kids will be upset. I am really trying to separate out the issue
of is it moral and right for the kids to know we are sleeping together 
without being married/living together. I don't think that it is the issue
(it could be used for an excuse but I really don't think it is the
issue....
however if it were I would respect and accept that)
But It may be that this is where the grieving or guilt is surfacing with
the SO.

     Originally when I stayed over the first night and he left for
the couch, that morning I said something about how disappointed
I was he wasn't there.  He just said he couldn't sleep and that's
why he went to the couch. Weeks later during a phone conversation
and a second time waking up alone, I brought up again how disappointed
I was.  That's when he said something about  the kids (I can't recall
exactly what he said..but it felt like a slap across the face, At
that point I did say that what he just said really hurt. (it
kind felt like he'd didn't want the kids to know he'd be waking up
with just anyone , he didn't say that...it is just how It felt) After
all this other talk about caring about me etc I just really confused me .
He said  he felt funny, maybe now it would be different since now he had
spent
more time together and the kids like me etc.  However at this point, again
many
of you picked up on the mother-in-law issue who lives right next door and I 
did totally resent her saying something to him and him letting her opinion 
count (No, I have not told him how strongly I felt about that.) So I told
him,
I was not comfortable staying there with his "in-laws" next door and I
wouldn't
be staying over again. I should add, he kept asking me to stay over before
this
conversation even though the prior 2 times he ended up on the couch after
initially going to sleep with me.

So I guess I am going to try and relax and see what happens.  Once in great
while he is able to stay at my house. I won't stay at his, kids or no kids,
though if we get past this everyone will be welcome at my house.  He
wants us all to go on vacation together. I have not yet asked about the
sleeping arrangements . I have made this a small issue with
him (though for me it is a bigger issue). I am not going to push it, only
to let him know it is out there, it can be put off for the immediate future
but it's not  going away. I want to be understanding and supportive but
on the other hand I don't want to find the rug yanked from under me
in case his feelings aren't really what he says they are. 
###########

One last question which is totally off the waking up along issue but
I am uncomfortable with.  Our mutual friends who fixed us up. (Me being
friends with the wife(Ann)/ him the husband)  Every time we get together
with
them (which lately has not been often), my friend, Ann, is always
bringing up the deceased wife..things like.. didn't  "kathy"
want another baby ? Weren't you and "kathy" going to build a house
in "anytown, usa" ? To me I find this very inappropriate while I'm there.
Again
am I being oversensitive, insecure?   I respect his and his kids
and his in-laws and friends memory of kathy and needing and wanting to
talk about her, but when we go out
in a social situation for fun, as couples, Is this appropriate?

Feel free to respond to anything  said in this note. Sorry it
is so long.  It is kind of like therapy, writing it down and then
seeing how others interpet the situation.  Thanks.

    It must be hard to compete with a ghost. You must remember that
    she was very much a part of his life. It hasn't been a year yet.
    I can understand why you feel insecure and sensitive to this.
    You must allow him to work thru this slowly. It will be if you
    can tolerate all of it. Remember 'she' isn't there. She is gone.
    After time goes by and you spend more time..she will be a memory.
    She however will always sort of be there in their hearts and minds.
    Alot of this is going to depend on you...

    
    	I'm glad to see you're back and asking questions. Ideally, it would
    have been better to tell him how you felt around the mother in law; the 
    resentment etc, than to just say no more overnights (because of that) 
    and let him somehow guage the degree of your feelings about it from
    that action. However, it's good that you're making some space in that
    area too for now, and if this is what allowed you to do that...good.
    
    	I believe your friends mentioning of his deceased wife in front of
    you is inappropriate, because her doing so is inconsistent with her
    getting the two of you together. I kinda doubt that it was because of 
    you having well known and previously demonstrated skills as a grief
    counselor, that your friend matched you up with him! So why would she
    keep bringing up his wife, by name, in front of you? It must've been a
    very uncomfortable situation for you, watching her try to lead him into
    a discussion so potentially painful.
    
    	I think it's good that taking a step back, "seeing what happens"
    and that you're *protecting yourself*, just "in case".
    
    	Joe

    re: living with a ghost, if the relationship looks like it might get to
    a living-together stage, you may want to be considering (now) what it 
    would be like to live in the ghost's house....  Because it's the kids'
    home as well as your SO's, that house may be the "natural" choice.  But
    *everything* in that house has connections to "the ghost", down to the
    wallpaper and the furniture placement.  It's very easy to feel that you
    have no right to move anything or change anything (or goddess forbid,
    throw anything out); it's also very easy for the surviving spouse to
    feel (consciously or not) that you're trashing the shrine if you do so
    much as paint the walls a different color.  I'm sure that both of you
    really want a relationship based on equality, and both of you are
    really trying for that.  But some environments are "more equal than
    others" and IMO there are tremendous benefits in pooling your resources
    and finding a residence where you can start fresh.
    
    FWIW,
    Leslie

    I think you and your SO should look closely at the relationship
    developing with the 2 little girls.  It hasn't been all that long
    since they lost their Mother.  
    
    I'd hate to think of another loss for them if you and he have moved
    this realtionship along too quickly, and it doesn't work out.
    
    Been there, done that, the regret is sometimes overwhelming.