Conference quark::human_relations

    
    I feel if you're going to have any kind of an affair... Either fix your
    marriage or GET OUT OF THE MARRIAGE!
     
    
    John
    

    Yes you should probably get out of the marriage. It's not fair to your
    wife or you or your lover. You should probably take the time to end
    your marriage before getting in any deeper with your other emotional
    commitment. It will be easier on your children in the long run.
    
    Your children will be very unhappy with this turn of events. 
    
    Although it can't be very pleasant for them with the way things are
    right now. 
    
    Try to find a balance where they can still have a firm foundation to
    start lives of their own.
    
    You will probably go through an emotional upset just leaving the
    marital home.
    
    There is no sense in being as unhappy in your marriage as you are.
    
    You should probably have ended it before you started your affair.
    
    At least this way you wife will have a chance to find some happiness
    also.
    
    The stress will be intense. Especially as losses are incurred on all
    sides. 
    
    

You've made it clear in .0 that you currently feel the marriage is in shambles.

But what's happening in that other relationship ?  Are you two still in love?
Are you feeling a committment to each other for the future ?  That
part wasn't clear to me from reading your note.

/Eric

    The following entry has been contributed by a member of our community
    who wishes to remain anonymous.  If you wish to contact the author by
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				Steve






    I can tell you from personal experience, that what you are doing to
    your  wife and children (if you have children) is probably the worse
    thing you can  do to any human being.  It is worse than losing a loved
    one by death.  I  will NEVER trust my husband again, because when he
    had the chance, he messed  up and I found him with his girlfriend in a
    parked car.  Now, mind you, he  told me it was over and he was willing
    to work this out with me. He too, got emotionally involved with this
    girl.  And now, he can't end it  with her, so I have asked him to end
    it with me so that I can get on with  my life.  There was no excuse for
    this "affair".  Our marriage had no real problems.   We had our little
    arguments, but we worked them out. That is what really  bothers me. I
    did nothing wrong, and look what happened.  We got along  great and I
    never would have thought he would need to go elsewhere, but he  did and
    he has destroyed our marriage and family. You certainly hit the nail on
    the head with your tapestry example.
    

To the anon replier:

	You say there was nothing wrong with your marriage and your husband
	got involved with another woman.  I don't get it.  It can't be both.
	Which was it ?

/Eric

>To the anon replier:

>	You say there was nothing wrong with your marriage and your husband
>	got involved with another woman.  I don't get it.  It can't be both.
>	Which was it ?


    	From her perspective, there might not have been anything wrong.
    She may very well have done everything she could but the other person
    still chose to cheat.  You can't force loyalty from someone.  Perhaps
    her husband has unresolved issues or perhaps he just isn't the faithful
    type.  I personally don't see a conflict in her statements.



    Brian

    Re: .0

    
>    Right now, my marriage is a shambles.  Home life is a disaster. I find
>    that my relationship with my wife has changed so much, that there's
>    simply not much left (not that there was a strong foundation before,
>    though).  And, yet each time we get up to that precipice which involves
>    a divorce, I cringe at what lays beneath me.
    


    	Why?  Answering why you cringe at the thought of the divorce may
    help you leave -- or stay.



    Brian

    Dear Anon:
    
    The only person who can make you happy is yourself. You must do what
    you think is right.
    
    Someone once said that a successful live would be one where at the end
    you looked back and had no regrets. Will you regret that you wasted you
    life in a bad marriage? Will you regret that you never took the chance
    for happiness?
    
    Steve

If one partner of a marriage goes off and has an affair, then something
was *already* amiss in the marriage, and there was already uncommunicated
issues.

There's no such thing as people merely being "unfaithful" in a marriage
that's "working".  People have affairs to escape from dealing with trouble
that's *already* there.  People have affairs, or fantasize about such, to
soothe the pain that they feel.

/Eric

    
    I agree with Eric that if one partner has unfulfilled needs that
    can only be filled by a romantic liason, then something is wrong 
    with the marriage/relationship. A relationship is a TWO-party
    deal, both sides have to be satisfied to be successful. 
    
    If partner A thinks nothing is wrong while partner B is having
    an affair, it may be explained by any/some/all of the following
    reasons (of course, there may many more)
    
    	- the 2 partners are not communicating successfully, thus
    	  partner A does not realized how unhappy partner B is.
    
    	- partner B is dishonest, does not want partner A to know
    	  about the fling.
    
    	- partner A does not want to know about it, hoping that it
    	  will go away.
    
    So, in any of the cases, there is a problem already. Just because
    partner A is happy does not mean that partner B *SHOULD* also be
    happy. This is the assumption by the anon that is being questioned 
    by Eric. 	
    
    
    
    Eva

    
    
    I also think that sometimes marriage is viewed as a duty
    like a job. If the husband does the husband-duty and the 
    wife does the wife-duty, then everything should be fine. 
    It would have been fine in another time or another place
    when or where the expectation of marriage was different. 
    But here, the expectation has changed from the traditional
    husband-provide-wife-keep-house to husband-wife-should-be-
    best-friends-and-everything-else-is-secondary. If both
    sides do not have the same expectation, then we have problems.
    
    
    Eva
    

>There's no such thing as people merely being "unfaithful" in a marriage
>that's "working".  People have affairs to escape from dealing with trouble
>that's *already* there.  People have affairs, or fantasize about such, to
>soothe the pain that they feel.


    	I didn't say the marriage was working.  I was merely stating that
    it is entirely possible for one person in a relationship to be doing
    everything right, everything they can (this does not suppose they are
    perfect however) and still the other person could cheat.  The other
    person's desire to cheat may have *NOTHING* to do with their partner,
    it could very well be (most likely IS) some issue within themselves.


    	How convenient that you and Eva have worked out all the possible
    explanations for why people have affairs.  Sorry to say but I have to
    disagree with both of you and say there are more possibilities which
    you're not taking into account.  I don't have stats in front of me, but
    I know I've heard of cases of folks (probably a pretty hefty percentage
    of folks who cheat) who cheat on one partner, and then another, and
    then another, and so on....  Does this have anything to do with their
    partners?  Gimme a break!  It's an issue within the person themselves
    that they need to work on before they can be faithful to *any* partner.


    	I would agree that in a lot of cases if someone is cheating both
    people share some amount of the responsibility.  However I wouldn't
    jump to that conclusion before I know the facts.


    	I'm not making comments about particular scenarios here in these
    notes, merely stating that the possibility exists and therefore it's
    unfair to be judging someone guilty before you even know the details.



    Brian

    
    	Brian is correct, because there is the phenomena known as "sex and
    love addiction". Someone could be in a relationship or marriage with
    the best partner in the whole world - and still, they must "act out"
    their affliction. One way this is done is by engaging in sex outside of
    the primary relationship.
    
    	This behavior has little to do with the partner as a person, or their
    performance - in any category. It has only to do with the person who is
    an addict. It's the as-yet untreated part of _them_ manefesting itself.
    
    >People have affairs, or fantasize about such, to soothe the pain that 
    >they feel.
    
    	The hallmark of a sex addict, or any other addict you care to
    consider, if you substitute the appropriate behavior for "have
    affairs". It's how you turn mere pain into true suffering.
    
    	Joe

    
    Brian,
    
    	Before you go off the my deep end, please re-read my entry.
    
    	In specific in .10:
    
    	>If partner A thinks nothing is wrong while partner B is having
        >an affair, it may be explained by any/some/all of the following
        >reasons (of course, there may many more)
                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    	This is your comprehension of what I wrote:
    
        >How convenient that you and Eva have worked out all the possible
    							 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^					
        >explanations for why people have affairs.  
         ^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    	>Sorry to say but I have to disagree with both of you and say there 
    	>are more possibilities which you're not taking into account.
    
    	I can see why! 
    	
    
    	Eva

Eva, thanks for taking the time to respond to Brian.

I also saw how he was not thoroughly reading what we wrote before he
answered, but I didn't have the energy to talk back.

/Eric

    
    Joe,
    
    	>Someone could be in a relationship or marriage with the best partner 
    	>in the whole world - and still, they must "act out" their affliction.
    
    	But there is no such thing as the best partner in the whole world,
    just like there is no such thing as the best daughter or the best
    mother. IMO, people get into relationship with partners who are compatible,
    whatever that means. 
    
    	Yes, there are people who are not cut out, for whatever reason, for
    monogomous relationships and you can call them whatever term. But,
    these people have to be honest (my reason #2) about their priorities 
    and preferences in life AND communiciate that to their partner (my 
    reason #1). And, people have to more informed and less naive when they
    look for a partner, IMO. In general, people do not change overnight,
    unless there is a trauma, people have track records and telltale signs. 
    People have to take responsiblity in their choices of partners, IMO.
      
    
    Eva 

    	Deep end?  Not a chance.  Believe me, you'll know when I go "off
    the deep end".  ;-)


    	Okay, I missed a parenthetical expression -- things are hectic here
    and I was going by tone rather than chewing over each word.  Overall
    I'd say that's a minor nit and my major point still stands.


  
>    	But there is no such thing as the best partner in the whole world,
>    just like there is no such thing as the best daughter or the best
>    mother. IMO, people get into relationship with partners who are compatible,
>    whatever that means. 


    	People get into relationships, IMO, for even more reasons than they
    have affairs.  If people only got into relationships with folks who
    were compatible, or who they *thought* were compatible, a lot of
    problems would go away.  If you've got unresolved issues, chances are
    your choices are driven by them rather than compatibility or something
    else which we generally consider "healthy".



    Brian

    
    Brian,
    
    	Every single one of us have unresolved issues, until the day we 
    die, IMO. The only thing we can ever hope for and work towards is
    knowing what those issues may be and be honest about them.
    
    	The one thing that *I* think dysfunctional upbringing
    didn't teach is to accept, *NOT* saying condone here, human weaknesses
    of various kind as part of life. The search for a "healthy" human
    being for partner is like the search for unicorn, IMO. A compatible
    partner, to me, is someone who appreciates our strengths, can live
    with our weaknesses and hopefully helps to balance the scale out.
    
    
    Eva
    

    Eva,

    
>    	Every single one of us have unresolved issues, until the day we 
>    die, IMO. The only thing we can ever hope for and work towards is
>    knowing what those issues may be and be honest about them.


    	This is true, to a degree.  We will never attain perfection, we
    will never be completely free of issues.  However, this doesn't mean we
    shouldn't *try* to continue to work to eliminate them, and at least
    ameliorate them.  I don't think it's good enough to have issues,
    recognize them and inform others about them and then say you're done
    with it.  "I'm an abuser of others, I recognize that and just wanted to
    let you know how I am but don't expect me to change" is not acceptable.
    For me, anyway.


    	There's a big difference between someone who has issues but has
    worked to make them a smaller part of their life and someone who
    hasn't.  That's the key here -- do your issues rule your life?

    
>    	The one thing that *I* think dysfunctional upbringing
>    didn't teach is to accept, *NOT* saying condone here, human weaknesses
>    of various kind as part of life. The search for a "healthy" human
>    being for partner is like the search for unicorn, IMO. A compatible
>    partner, to me, is someone who appreciates our strengths, can live
>    with our weaknesses and hopefully helps to balance the scale out.
    

    	There's a big difference, again for me, between human weakness and
    having major unresolved issues.  Sure, we all make mistakes and fall
    down -- but do we hurt others in the process?  Do we make attempts to
    learn from our mistakes?  Healthy is a very relative thing.  While no
    one is *perfectly* healthy, there are people who are "healthy enough"
    to make us happy.  Depending on our experiences and own level of
    health, the term "healthy enough" is a relative thing and will be
    different for each of us.



    Brian

    
    
    
    Brian,
    
         People, whom we can't stand, for whatever reason, we leave
        them alone. People, whom we don't agree with, for whatever reason,
        we leave them alone. People come in all shades. Someone's garbage
        is another person's treasure. IMO, we cannot expect people to change
        for us, we cannot expect people to be "healthy enough to make us happy".
        IMO, there are always going to be heart breakers, if one does not
        want to get hurt, get out of the way. We are not in a store buying
        a roll of paper towel, of which we have a certain set of standard
        expectations. We are like tiny pieces of jigsaw puzzle in a bucket,
        where a few of the other pieces may fit with us. We could try every
        piece that comes along, getting our own edges frayed trying to fit,
        or we could have a mentally picture of what might be a good fit and
        only entertain the pieces that look like 99% match. Maybe there is
    	no match in the bucket. We can try to cut up other pieces to fit 
    	our shape, but then those pieces may not be happy. We are not
    	passive, waiting for other pieces to cut us up or forces their
    	edges on us. We are not helpless. We don't sit there and let people
     	do things to us. It is just as dynsfunctional or naive to expect 
        people to take care of our needs and watch out for us.
    
    	All IMO ... 
    
    Eva

>>>>More likely is an eating away at the foundation of the marriage, shaky
>>>>though it may already be.

	I find one of the most common elements behind unhappy marriages is
	when couples marry "for love."

	Love is not stable foundation on which to build a marriage, because
	love comes and goes throughout our lifetimes.  Marriage is a commitment
	to build a stable foundation for the future, for children, for the 
	world.  

	I wise man once told me "never marry someone until you've fallen out
	of love with them.  Because, only then, can you REALLY see that person
	for who they are and what qualities and values they bring to the 
	relationship and to the world. Then, and only then, should you decide 
	if you can maintain a solid foundation with this person forever."

	The foundation for marriage should be common values, goals and ideals.
	Marriages should be build on friendship and healthy communication. 
	Because, only by having these qualities in common can you hope to 
	last through the times when one or both of you "fall out of love" with
	each other.  

	I see people every day jumping into relationships and marriages because
	being with the other person makes them "feel good."  Being with 
	someone because they make you feel good, or because there's a great
	sexual attraction is not going to last.  

	Way too often we try to fake intimacy in our relationships because
	"we don't want to be alone anymore" so we lie to ourselves that this
	square peg is going to fit into this round hole.  So we marry the 
	person, and then we wake up and we find out all those things about
 	the other person that we can't compromise in a relationship.  So we 
	look elsewhere for those things -- and perhaps we find them -- and 
	we have an affair.  

	All I can say to the basenote author is wake up and take responsibility
	for your life.  Right now you're in the middle of experiencing the cost
	for your not being totally clear when you chose to marry your wife in 
	the first place.  Or perhaps you're "forgotten" why you married her?  
	Either way, you're running and hiding from your responsibility to the
	choices you've made.

	Affairs happen when people figure out their mistakes then want to run 
	and hide from them.  Shirking responsibility serves no one.....and 
	most of all, it doesn't serve ourselves.  We're on this earth to 
	LEARN the lessons that are brought to us.  

	If we choose to run and hide from these lessons instead of facing them 
	and learning from them, they WILL come back to haunt us again and again 
	(and harder and harder) until we take responsibility to face them and
	move through them.

	And almost without fail, the quality of what we receive after we 
	stand up and face our responsibility far outweighs anything we can
	experience by hiding from it.

	Kath

    I heard a statistic on the radio yesterday that suggested over the
    course of a marriage 1/2 men have affairs and 1/3 women have affairs...
    
    
    Perhaps if this is correct then what leads to affairs is nothing more
    than opportunity, cos I find it hard to believe that 33% or more
    marriages are that bad....
    
    Whilst I don't think you need to be joined to your partner by the hip,
    I do think that you should try not to be put in situations where
    temptation might be...
    
    For example, I disagree very strongly with companies who hold 'company'
    functions where partners cannot attend.  At this sort of thing people
    are likely to drink too much, people who work together can have very
    close ties and all it needs is a minor indiscretion to open up the
    possibility of an affair...  my beliefs come mainly from observation of
    Digital functions.  When I first joined Digital (10 yrs ago) I was
    gobsmacked to find that the Valentines Disco was employee only!
    
    My boyfriends company is holding a Barn Dance for company employees
    only... now I understand a company squash league or sporting event -
    but a DANCE??
    
    
    
    Any comments?
    
    
    Xtine
                                                                   

    Eva,

    
>         People, whom we can't stand, for whatever reason, we leave
>        them alone. People, whom we don't agree with, for whatever reason,
>        we leave them alone. People come in all shades. Someone's garbage
>        is another person's treasure. IMO, we cannot expect people to change
>        for us, we cannot expect people to be "healthy enough to make us happy".
>        IMO, there are always going to be heart breakers, if one does not
>        want to get hurt, get out of the way. We are not in a store buying
>        a roll of paper towel, of which we have a certain set of standard
>        expectations. We are like tiny pieces of jigsaw puzzle in a bucket,
>        where a few of the other pieces may fit with us. We could try every
>        piece that comes along, getting our own edges frayed trying to fit,
>        or we could have a mentally picture of what might be a good fit and
>        only entertain the pieces that look like 99% match. Maybe there is
>    	no match in the bucket. We can try to cut up other pieces to fit 
>    	our shape, but then those pieces may not be happy. We are not
>    	passive, waiting for other pieces to cut us up or forces their
>    	edges on us. We are not helpless. We don't sit there and let people
>     	do things to us. It is just as dynsfunctional or naive to expect 
>        people to take care of our needs and watch out for us.
    

    	That was poorly worded on my part.  Rather than, "healthy enough to
    make us happy", I should have said, "healthy enough to not make us
    unhappy".  When we enter into a relationship we should already be happy
    with ourselves and not depend on someone else to do that for us.  By
    the same token however if someone substantially and continually
    decreases our happiness then that is also something to look at and
    think over.


    	I didn't say anything about changing others, I just think that if
    someone has a history of hurting others due to unresolved issues they
    are not a good candidate for a (healthy) relationship.  Since none of
    us are born perfect, it's a given then that each of us have work to do.
    Ideally, each of us is working on our own sets of things before we even
    meet potential partners.


    	As for pain, there is a big difference between taking a chance on
    someone and not having it work out as opposed to getting involved with
    someone who has a history of hurting others in relationships.  These
    types are not always easy to spot, but I've noticed there are generally
    warning signals that are there if you're open to them.


    	I've noticed Eva that your basic theme is that people are imperfect
    and we should take them as they are.  I don't disagree with you one
    iota.  You *have* to take them as they are because you *can't* change
    them -- we are the only ones who can effect change in our own lives. 
    I'm simply saying it's only smart to be careful about what types of
    folks you take your chances on -- unless you enjoy or don't mind
    getting hurt a lot.  Needless pain is foolish.  I've been hurt many
    times and expect it will happen again; this does not scare me a bit.
    It's the price I expect to pay occasionally for taking risks.  And make
    no mistake:  taking risks is a part of relationships.



    Brian

    
    
    Brian,
    
    	I agree with what you said in .23. 
    
    	I was pointing out that we should learn to take care of 
    ourselves, learn to figure out what we want from life and from a
    partner, learn how to say no and when to go. We learn from success
    and failures. The main point though is - we are in charge, we don't 
    wait for the other partner to make things better or make things worse,
    to manage our life, like Prince Charming and Cinderella.
    
    
    
    Eva
    	

    
    Kath,
    
    	>I find one of the most common elements behind unhappy marriages is
        >when couples marry "for love."
    
    	This is an interesting observation. I asked a childhood friend of
    mine recently how and why she picked her husband. I was surprised when
    she said "Well, there are certain areas in life that I am not good at,
    so I look for someone who does well in those areas. As long as he and his
    family checks out fine (no abuse), and he is not a dweeb ...". It
    dawned on me that she followed the traditional true blue route and made
    out very well. While stupid me went out looking for true love, thinking
    that I didn't need anyone for anything! If I could do it all over
    again, I would still run out looking for true love, but with a better
    idea what is important.
    
    
    Eva 

>>	It dawned on me that she followed the traditional true blue route 
>>	and made out very well. 

	Well, there's probably a reason it's worked for thousands of years.
	
	And it just might be an indicator as to why there's so much divorce, 
	depression, therapy, self-help books, etc, etc, etc.

	


	Marrying someone because of "true love" is sort of like hiring someone
	to be the vice-president of your company based on the fact that he
	makes you smile.  He may be great to be around, but can he really
	"do the job?"


	Would you hire him because you like his tie, or because he has the
	qualifications, you've interviewed him, you share common philosophies
	about running the company, you have common beliefs in management
	style, his dedication to the employee mirrors your own....(and you 
	like his tie)?

	Kath

    
    Kath,
    
    	Well, in my case, I was extremely fortunate to have fallen in
    love with someone who can also do the job, but it was "I like your tie
    and we'll figure it out as we go along", it was very much like I just
    knew he was the guy, it just took a long time (years) to sort out what 
    was real and what wasn't, what worked and what didn't. All this work
    could have been done upfront and that would have saved us a lot of
    grief. One thing that kept us together thru the pits (and there were
    pits) was that we knew we love each other very much and that we both 
    tried our damn best to make it work. We took the long hard way, learnt 
    a wicked lot, but should have been a lot easier though ;-)   
    
    
    Eva
    

Since a couple of you asked for an update, here it is.

My marriage is still in major disrepair.  I told my wife that I was moving
out, but I haven't done anything formal towards that end result.

I saw my friend over the weekend.  I still simply love being with her.
But, there were clouds on the horizon.  I did a couple of things that
annoyed her (she's lived alone for 15 years, so she's very protective of
her own "space").  I left the toilet seat up, I used the wrong towel, and
a couple of other minor things.  She politely told me that it ticked her
off, but she was annoyed for a couple of hours after that.  She also said
that it made her think that maybe I was simply "too annoying" to have a
long term relationship with.  When we first had this discussion, I almost
felt better, because then it became more clear to me that maybe, just maybe,
this wasn't going to work.  But, then as our time together continued,
we got along fine, and I really enjoyed being with her.  Although I would
be disappointed, I actually wouldn't mind too much if I discovered that
we were simply incompatible.  What is the most painful, is the feeling
that we WOULD make a really good couple, and that it's an opportunity that I
can't pass up.

every time I see her for more than a day, when I have to leave her I really
ache for her.  It's like my heart is hurting just being away from her.
I know that sounds both corny and superficial, but it's a feeling that I
simply haven't felt for SO long.

I'm reading a book now called "how to deal with your husband's mid-life
crisis" (my wife's mother gave it to her).  As I read it last night,
the tears were streaming down my face. The book talked about the feelings
that other men had talked about, and I could relate to many of them.
The book also talked about how a mid-life crisis is very common for most men
around my age.  I feel like maybe I'm going through
more than just a marital crisis, although that is clearly the major issue.
As an example, I am about to resign from Digital, because I want to make
a change.  I don't think that I'm doing anything rash, but I do feel like
my career and my home life are simply crushing me in a vice of stress.
(granted, brought on to a large extent by myself)

I think that I feel so starved for good feelings, and frankly love, that
I have become "needy" in terms of affection.  I always thought that
I was the unaffectionate type who didn't need hugs and stuff, but when
I hug my friend, it simply feels wonderful.  I want to just squeeze
her hard, because it feels so nice to be close to someone like that.
This will be a slight exagerration, but I feel beaten down over the years
of arguments and lack of closeness.  I contributed equally to this situation
in my own way, but nonetheless I just feel like any feelings of self-worth
that I have must be generated completely internally.  That is, the relationship
doesn't make me feel good....I try to feel good about myself despite the
relationship.  My wife, by the way, would say the exact same thing about
herself.  (yes, I know that one can't rely on other people to generate
good feelins about oneself, but I would hope that a relationship would
contribute towards one's feelings of worth, not detract from it)

here's an excerpt from one of the replies.  I don't understand what you
are really saying.  By "take responsibility", you mean "make the marriage
work", or "get out of it", or what?

All I can say to the basenote author is wake up and take responsibility
for your life.  Right now you're in the middle of experiencing the cost
for your not being totally clear when you chose to marry your wife in 
the first place.  Or perhaps you're "forgotten" why you married her?  
Either way, you're running and hiding from your responsibility to the
choices you've made.

If we choose to run and hide from these lessons instead of facing them 
and learning from them, they WILL come back to haunt us again and again 
(and harder and harder) until we take responsibility to face them and
move through them.

Eva, from your reply:

    One thing that kept us together thru the pits (and there were
    pits) was that we knew we love each other very much and that we both 
    tried our damn best to make it work. We took the long hard way, learnt 
    a wicked lot, but should have been a lot easier though ;-)   

I admire your tenacity in fighting through these problems.  But, you had
the strong advantage of "loving each other very much".  My marriage
counselor says that any marriage is like building a statue. You have
to have a basic, firm foundation of trust/affection/respec/etc, in order
to create something on top of it.  As he says, "you simply don't have that
in your marriage right now".

You probably have some unwritten rules in your relationship about what
simply is unacceptable.  For example, it might be "no hitting, no verbal
attacks, no attacks on family, no mocking the other person, etc, etc"
Even if you don't have these spelled out explicitly, you certainly have
them in common with your husband. What would you do if he violated one
of these tenets?  The pain of what is said or done, is not anywhere near
as great as the pain of knowing that your partner would DO one of these
things (and yes, this goes for my affair, as well as my wife's verbal
attacks).

Again, I admire your stubborness to make it work.  It just seems clear
that you have that firm foundation on which to build a statue. 
For some of us, the foundation is not as firm.

    
    re .28
    
    	I hope you will find your path in the maze. If you need a
    change, try a new hobby, something that allows you time alone
    to think about things. The answer is not from therapists, but
    from within you, from your soul and your consciense. Don't let
    anyone else decide for you and don't let statistics sway you.
    You are unique and no professional can go inside your soul and
    tell you what to do. Maybe there isn't a foundation for real
    OR maybe the pro just gave up on you - not knowing how to fix
    it - the pro didn't have much to lose in any ways. Just be
    careful, you don't want to be another statistics and you have
    everything to lose. 
    
    	Something I found helpful - ask yourself what kind of a person 
    you think you are, what kind of a person you want to be, what kind 
    of person you want your children to have for a father, what values
    are important to you (don't listen to other people - they don't have to
    pay your mortgage nor raise your kids), what will be your regrets,
    what kind of mistakes will haunt you for life, something along that
    line. Once you figure out what sort of a man you want to go down as,
    you may have a better picture of the situation.
    
    	For me, the only rule, which is spelled out at time zero,
    is if my husband was sleeping with another woman (affair, one night
    stand, etc) then he and this woman would be dead, so to speak,
    everything else (verbal attacks, mocking, etc) is a level playing 
    field. Of course, I had a good idea what kind of a person my husband
    was before I got involved, ie. I knew he would not hurt me physically
    on purpose, he was a respectable, good hearted man and he would not go
    out on me. Now, I am not sure if I could say that about myself ;-). 
    
    
    
    Eva
    

Being "ticked off" by someone leaving the toilet seat up, or using the
wrong towel, is not "clouds on the horizon", and doesn't suggest the
relationship is wrong.

It's *healthy* and *necessary* for each person in a relationship to get
occasionally ticked off by the other person and to be able to *say* what's
ticking them off, rather than hiding it inside.

So I'd say, welcome her communication that you ticked her off, as a healthy
communication in the relationship, not "clouds on the horizon".

The only cloud is the pink one in which one thinks good relationships
are without ticking each other off occasionally.

/Eric

    
>    	Well, in my case, I was extremely fortunate to have fallen in
>    love with someone who can also do the job, but it was "I like your tie
>    and we'll figure it out as we go along", it was very much like I just
>    knew he was the guy, it just took a long time (years) to sort out what 
>    was real and what wasn't, what worked and what didn't. All this work
>    could have been done upfront and that would have saved us a lot of
>    grief. One thing that kept us together thru the pits (and there were
>    pits) was that we knew we love each other very much and that we both 
>    tried our damn best to make it work. We took the long hard way, learnt 
>    a wicked lot, but should have been a lot easier though ;-)   
    

    	You know, this may sound crazy but I'd think twice about wishing
    things "had been easier".  The very fact that you've come through the
    crucible has molded your relationship into what it is -- what sounds to
    be a very strong entity.  If you hadn't been through this fire, I'm
    sure it would be a very different relationship.  Although I'm sure at
    the time you'd have given anything to make it easier.  ;-)



    Brian
    

    How to make a marriage work, be best freinds with your spouse, never
    stop laughing, communicating, sharing common interests. Get your own
    interests and hobbies that you enjoy the most. Never stop going out to
    dinner, movies, beaches, trips etc. Dont get in a rut so your marriage
    appears to be a 'duty'. Most of all never loose the spark that
    attracted you to your spouse in the first place.
    
    
    Lynne :-)

    
    Hi - I'm new here.  (;^)  However I know many of you from other places.
    
    If you think you are going through 'mid-life crisis', there is a very
    good book you might read entitled "Liquid Light Of Sex", by Barbara
    Hand Clow.  'Mid-life crisis' is a very real astrological even that
    happens in all our lives around age 40 or so, and it's called your
    Uranus Opposition.  Barbara goes into quite a bit of detail throughout
    the book talking about many cases of both individuals and couples who
    are experiencing this event, and given that I saw a lot of other
    astrological events described that fit my own life - and the lives of
    many of my friends - to a T (so much so that it was scary), I hold her
    work in very high regard.  
    
    To determine your key astrological life passages, Barbara has put
    several tables in the back of the book that are very easy for the
    novice to use...just look up your birth month and year, and the ranges
    are all calculated and presented. 
    
    One other book that is a gem in terms of talking about relationships 
    is, "Gift By The Sea", by Anne Morrow Lindbergh.  She wrote it 30+ 
    years ago now, and yet it is beautiful and very timeless work.
    
    Cindy