Conference quark::human_relations

My parents separated when I was 10 years old.  While they were married my
Mom had taken care of my father.  Cooked his meals, did his laundry, cleaned 
the house, budgeted the money, etc.  When they separated he got his own 
apartment, they sold the house, my Mom got remarried and we moved out of state.
We still saw my father on a regular basis every couple of months.  Everything 
seemed OK at first, he was doing fine on his own, he said he was seeing a
new girlfriend, and work was going well.  Then as the years passed, we started
to notice some odd behavior.  When we would talk on the phone he'd tell us 
these outlandish stories of things that supposedly happened to him.  The first
couple times it didn't seem too out of whack, but by the fifth story we started
to question how much of this was made up.  We also noticed that we were never
introduced to his girlfriend.  Years went by and only stories, "clues" placed
to prove her existance, but no pictures or anything.  She supposedly worked
in Atlantic City, and we began to think that maybe he had a gambling problem.
He also showed signs of being a slight hypochondriac, with a bruise being 
exaggerated into a broken arm and the such, but we thought it just to be 
an annoying behavior that could be dealt with.

Then, about 5 years ago, we got a call that he was in the hospital with 
congestive heart failure.  We rushed down there, obviously concerned about
his health, but also concerned about his health insurance since he had 
recently given notice at his job and was going to start a new one.  It turns
out the heart failure came on because he had a flu-ish sickness but continued
to put in 60+ hour weeks at a job he was going to leave anyway!  We thought
this strange for someone who was a borderline hypochondriac.  While he
was sick we decided to help get his affairs in order.  We went to his apartment
and it looked like a bomb struck it.  That really wouldn't have bothered 
me that much but when we investigated the bedroom, we found three trashbags
worth of laundry.  Instead of taking his stuff to the laundromat he just 
kept buying more!  From the number of pairs of underwear, it looked like
this was going on for months.  Then the bills started to pile in.  His car 
payments, a Visa card maxed out, a Sears card maxed out (all those clothes), 
a check for $5000 he had borrowed against his life insurance.  He was 
definitely in a financial crisis, even though he had received half the
money from when the house was sold.  We called his new place of employment
to tell them he was sick, and the guy I talked to said to just tell him to 
forget it, they'll get someone else.  So now we were terrified for him.
The sickness, the weird behavior, the debt, and now no job.  Several sleep-
less nights passed, where we tried to work out the financials, and figure
out what to do.  He was out of intensive care so we sat down and went over
his bills with him, he assured us that we had all of them.  The next day,
a Mastercard bill came in the mail, again maxed out.  We brought it right to
the hospital and wanted to know why he didn't tell us about it.  He said
to us "That's the same bill as the one you had in the other pile".  No it
wasn't! It was a different account number, and a Mastercard to boot.  I
pointed these things out to him and he still denied it.  It took about
five minutes for him to admit it was a different card.  I was furious!  Here
we were trying to help him, and he was lying right to our face!  We came
to the realization then that he was a pathological liar.  All those strange
stories, the dubious girlfriend, all lies.

But he's our father, and he at least deserved a chance at atonement.  He made
a quick recovery, and my brother (who was still in school and had time free
during the summer) stayed with him, made sure he was OK, got groceries with
him, and got him back on his feet.  We loaned him some money to help start
to pay the bills, and showed him how to budget, and get his life back together.
He was able to go back to work in a few weeks, and he found a new job, moved
into a new apartment, quit smoking, and appeared to be back on track.

At this point we were skeptical about everything he said.  We would ask him
questions about his health, his financial situation, and he'd answer, but
after the credit card fiasco, we never knew whether to believe him or
not.  He seemed on most accounts to be OK, his "girlfriend" in Atlantic 
City had suddenly moved away (gambling stopped?), he kept his apartment
clean, worked his job.  The only concern we had is that he was going out
to eat at cheap diners rather than cook his own food, mostly because
we didn't think it fit in his budget.

Then, about two years ago, he ended up back in the hospital, this time for
preforated hernia.  We found out that he had the hernia, and knew about it,
even before the heart problems and had done NOTHING about it for years.  
He complained about every little stomach upset but totally ignored something 
as major as this.  He was operated on and out of the hospital in about two
days, but called to  complain that he couldn't walk, was having 
gastic disturbances and bowel disruptions and was very sick.  I was on GEEP at
the time and couldn't take time off, so my brother took unpaid time off from
work (he didn't have vacation, my mom and I paid him his lost wages) and went
to take care of him.

When I called to see how everything was, my brother said "He's not that sick.
He can walk.  His gastric disturbances are being caused by bad diet because
he's ordering out for bad food every night.  He has no food in the house, nor 
any utensils whatsoever for making food.  He says he's hot, then turns down the
thermostat to 50, five minutes later he's cold so he turns it back up to 80,
then repeats the cycle over and over. His bathroom reeks of cigarettes."  I was
so angry. He was in the hospital on the brink of death only three years
ago, yet did not make any effort to eat healthier, stop smoking, or be
up front about his medical problems.  All his effort went into elaborate lies
about how well he was doing.  He could have told us about the hernia, he could
have probably done something years ago before it hit crisis stage.  He could 
have probably done anything to take responsibility for his life, but that
wasn't necessary because when he got in trouble we'd come bail him out.

My brother bought him a set of pots and pans, sat down with him, outlined
a healthy diet, and taught him the basics of cooking, like how to make 
spaghetti.  He told him that he HAD to stop smoking.  That he HAD to take
responsibility for his health because we couldn't keep bailing him out.
He stocked my father's fridge, ensured with his own eyes that my father
could walk, and at least get to the grocery store.  Made sure that someone
from my father's workplace (his only acquaintances) would stop by on their 
way home (my father lived very close to his workplace).

By now we were going over everything he said with a fine toothed comb.  He
was starting to be up front with us about a few things, like that he was broke.
I dealt with that.  We went over every expense that he had.  He was still
eating every meal out.  I told him he HAD to eat at home.  I went over
how much money he could save a week by eating in.  He told me he was too
tired when he got home.  I told him to make a big batch of stuff on the 
weekend when he was home and throw it in the microwave. I found out he was 
sending his polyester wash-and-wear clothes out to the cleaners even though
he had a washer/dryer in the apartment.  I told him 
they could be washed at home.  He said they needed to be pressed.  I told him 
to buy an iron.  He ssaid he didn't know how to iron.  I told him to learn.
I found out he was having a cleaning person clean his apartment.  I told him
to do it himself.  He said he was lonely.  I went over ways to meet people
and make friends.  He told me he was happier just hanging around the 
apartment.  I said he wasn't going to meet people that way.  Apparently,
he didn't like my suggestions because they involved effort on his part
to change his ways.  He called my Mom (who he had been divorced from 15 years
and who had been extremely patient in helping out during hard periods), and
asked for a second opinion.  He didn't like that either.  He called my
brother and asked for money.

He continued in his ways.  His bathroom still stank.  His "girlfriend" moved
back.  We told him to stop gambling.  He insisted he wasn't.  The outlandish
stories came back.  He continued to eat badly and, hence, the stomach 
ailments/flu/illness of the day came back.
We didn't know how serious they really were.  We were afraid he was taking
too many sick days.  We continued  to give him advice on how to solve the
problems of his life.  He continued to ignore us.

Then came the straw that broke the camel's back.  This past Thanksgiving,
we travelled to my maternal aunts house (we haven't seen my paternal aunt 
since she moved out of easy travelling distance when I was 13, I don't think
my father's ever gone to see her either).  My father lives not far away,
so he said he'd be there at 3:30pm to go out for a movie and dinner with us (I
was going to insist we pay, I know he's broke).  I cut short plans with a good
friend I hadn't seen in years to get back by then.  I found out my
father had called, he was delayed, wouldn't be there until 6:00pm. 6:30 
comes, and my aunt, Mom, cousin, and friend are going out to eat. I wanted 
desperately to go with them but my father was coming. At 7:30pm we ordered
a pizza.  My brother was broiling.  He didn't care that my father was late,
he just didn't want to hear a lie about it.  At 8:15pm my father arrived at 
the door, followed a minute later by my Mom and aunt back from eating.
The story he told was unbelievable,. must have taken him an hour to dream
it up. He probably just didn't want to take off from work, which we would
have understood.  Instead, he lied, and ruined my day with my friend, ruined 
dinner with my aunt (which I could have done without missing him).  My brother
went through the roof.  He just sat there grilling my father about the details
of the story, which my father was unable to provide.  After all these years,
he couldn't even show us the least bit of respect to do something as
simple as tell us the truth.  We just weren't going to deal with it anymore.

Now, the current problem surfaced.  He called us a couple months ago to
tell us there was a personality conflict at work and that he thought he 
might be fired.  This was not good news to us.  A month later he got canned.
We spent a long time on the phone talking about what was next.  The process
for looking for a new job, getting his unemployment (his employer was at
least nice enough to put down that he was layed off and not fired for 
disciplinary problems), what to do if it took a while to get a job.  He told
that he knew it was coming so he saved up some money, he was getting
two weeks pay, and with the 
unemployment, he'd be able to survive for a while.  He got a resume 
together, visited the employment office at Rutgers (he's alumni), and
checked the local papers, filed for unemployment, started getting the
checks. Three weeks later, he called my brother and asked for money because 
he couldn't pay his rent.

My brother refused.  We are so sick of him taking no responsibility,
ignoring our advice and efforts, and then expecting us to bail him out.
If he can't afford his rent (which is  quite expensive), he could move
into a cheaper place, clean his own apartment, do his own clothes, cook his 
own food, but he won't.  He will expect us to help him out.  My brother and
I have a united front that we won't take him in with us.  We know from years
of experience that he will refuse to live by our rules, will make no effort
to do for himself if we're there to do it for him.  We don't want his lies,
and we are terribly afraid of having to take on his debt.  It seems to me
like tough love is definitely called for here, but at the same time he's 
my father, and I don't want to see him out on the street.

I'm out of ideas, and that's why I've written this huge long note.  I'm
not looking for condemnation of my fathers behavior.  I'm looking 
for solutions that don't involve us having to baby him.  I really don't 
know what to do.

    I have no experience with this sort of situation, so I don't have any
    practical advice about your father directly.  What I would suggest,
    though, is that you and your brother find some sort of professional
    support for yourselves.  I imagine that therapists, clergy, or some
    social agencies may have experience with dealing with people with
    these sorts of problems.  The may be able to help you with your own
    feelings about him and about the situation, as well as possibly 
    providing some practical advice on how to handle him.
    
    Good luck, my thoughts are with you,
    Karen.

    
    One thought:
    
    	- Has he ever seen a counsellor/therapist? He sounds
    	  kind of depressed to me. Some of his behaviors
          seems compulsive and can be symptoms of deeper
    	  emotional problems. 
    
    
    Eva
    
    	

    
    I would also suggest he get help if he isn't already or help
    him to find another job.  I just went thru this (not to your extent)
    with my parents.    Too make a long story short, my father and aunt
    were in business for a while.  Their relationship went sour do
    to the business and my father was out of a job.  He moved back to
    our state with no job. My sister let them move into her place.  He
    collected unemployment.  He said he was trying to find a job but refused 
    to "Flip burgers".  He was looking for the perfect job.  He began to spend 
    foolishly, couldn't pay bills, gambled, etc..  His health also started 
    going down and had no benefits. Myself and 2 sisters did what we could to 
    help them by selling things of our own etc.  They got very depressed
    which made them act more foolishly with their money.  They weren't 
    seeing old friends like they used to and so on.  Fortunately,
    everything worked out well for them (which took quite a while) but no
    way could we totally turn our backs.  They are still our parents and 
    I looked at it as if they did it for us for years so that was the least
    I/we could do for them.  (I'm not sure your father was the same there).
    So, we did help them out as much as possible and after a while, only
    helped to a certain extent so they still knew they would need to fend for 
    themselves.  I'm still paying on one of my credit cards for them but
    thank god, it doesn't bother me. 
    
    I hope this story can help you somewhat to decide what's best.  I can
    see that your father is in a much worse state than what mine was so maybe
    you can make some sort of a deal with him,  you help him but he'll need
    to also help himself and seek help.  He sounds so depressed and stuck
    in a rutt, along with lonely.
    
    Good luck, it's a very difficult situation.
             

While there's no question your father could use help, I doubt your suggesting
it will do any good.  If he won't do the other things you've asked, that
SURELY won't happen.  It couldn't hurt to ask him, just keep in mind past
history and be prepared.


I think you're taking on responsibility for your father, and while it's hard,
it's probably not what's best for you (or him).  You mention he won't "live
by your rules"; of course not, everyone lives by their own rules.


It may sound cruel, but what *may* be best for your father is to let him fall
down.  Your father exhibits many of the symptoms of an alcoholic, and you and
your brother are the "enablers".  You're helping him live like he is by being
the crutch he needs.  It's almost always the case that someone like your father
will NOT seek help, will NOT try to straighten their lives out until they've
hit *bottom*.  And I mean rock bottom; be prepared however, rock bottom here
is not pretty or pleasant.


Looking over what I just wrote, it seems reasonable in theory -- but in
practice I don't know if I could carry it through.  Or even if I *should*.
Ugh, this is giving me the chills just thinking about it.


This is the real problem -- your father doesn't want to change his life, and
since he's the only one who *can* change it...it continues as is.  You can't
make him change, it doesn't matter if what you want for him is better for him
or not -- change only comes from within ourselves.


I feel for you -- this must be a very hard situation.  Good luck, whatever you
decide.


Brian

    
    
    what a sad story, do you think he's too old to change.
    Maybe he is depressed? I hope someone can help you  & the family.
    
    
    Please don't give up on him, that could be us in the future.
    BR...

    Whilst I have no medical expertise to back me up - I do have good
    reason to believe that your father is mentally ill.  I have seen very
    similar behaviour in an uncle of my ex.
    
    I think you should get him to a psychiatrist.
    
    
    
    Xtine
    

    Reply  .5  states almost exactly the conclusions that my brother and I
    have reached. We have both been in therapy (him for depression, me for
    SAD), and as we became more familiar with our own problems and the
    different types of illness,  we  saw  all  the  classic  signs  of 
    depression  and compulsive behavior.  However,  we  both  knew  that 
    we  can't MAKE him deal with his problems,  the  initiative HAS to come
    from him. My brother has talked with him about it, but I think my
    father is still in denial. We talked about our solutions  to our
    problems with him, tried to lead by example, but he chose not to do
    anything about it.
    
    We've  known  for  a  while  that we've been enabling him, which is why
    our involvement  for  the  past year or so has been mostly to just give
    advice, and  then let him choose what to do with it. I guess we've also
    known for a while  that  it  was  going to come down to this and that
    this decision was going  to have to be made. We're not going to take
    him in because he HAS to change, and he will be a terrible emotional
    drain on us, but as .5 says, he is  our  FATHER, and it is hard to just
    stand by while a loved hits bottom. That's  why  I  was looking for any
    suggestions to make the impact a little less harsh.
    
    Thanks for the input.

	I wish I had more time to answer this, but I'm off on vacation in 
	just a few minutes.  Something about what you just said struck a 
	cord with me, though.  One place you can start  is by supporting
	him differently.

>>    We've  known  for  a  while  that we've been enabling him, which is why
>>   our involvement  for  the  past year or so has been mostly to just give
>>   advice, and  then let him choose what to do with it.

	By "giving him advice", you're still enabling him.  One classic 
	reason that many people go to therapy forever and never quite 
	get "healed" is because they are being "given" their answers.
	People need to "own" their own answers to life, another person
	can't give answers to them.  There's no responsibility in that, 
	so there is no motivation.  They need to discover them on their own.

	One way you might want to try supporting him differently is to 
	begin to ask him questions.  Questions which get him to think about
	who he is and what he wants.  Questions which guide him toward
	discovering his path on his own.  What does he want?  What does he 
	need?  What does he think needs to happen next?   What does he 
	dream of having in his life?  

	It does sound like your father need professional help, but only 
	he can make the decision to get that.  In fact, if you really want
	him to make decisions for himself as a whole, you need to give him 
	guidance to discover his path for himself and take responsibility 
	for himself.  Even one "suggestion" of advice can hinder his 
	ability to take responsibility.  

	Someone else said it well in that you need to let him fall on his 
	face to move forward, no matter how ugly that could get.  Or how
	painful it gets for you.

	You do not have an easy road ahead of you........

	With love, 

	Kath

    I think every person has the responsibility of his/her life. You've
    been feeding/adding to the problem (disease) for years.
    
    You've finally realized or learned that you can't help someone who
    doesn't want to be helped. You've tried and it doesn't work. I know
    it's heartbreaking. It must've been for your mother too.
    
    Tough love is the only answer. Leave him to figure it out for himself.
    
    Change isn't made until life becomes tooo painful. Let him experience
    the consequences of his actions. "Do not bale him out" he will only
    drain/bleed you dry.
    
    It will be just as tough on you and your brother. Stay firm. Support
    each other is this. It's very important for you and your brother.
    
    It will be the best thing for your father in the long run.
    
    Let go...detach.
    
    Good luck...
                

    
    >Tough love is the only answer. Leave him to figure it out for himself.
    
    	I dunno about that. I'm suprised that no one has suggested a
    12-step/12-tradition based program of recovery for him. He obviously
    is suffering from the disease of self-indulgence, which is the
    cornerstone of all obsessive-compulsive disorders. I've heard recently
    that there's some 212 "life problems" that have corresponding 12-step
    /12-tradition based programs of solution. *Debtor's Anonymous* comes to
    my mind, just from the credit-card problems he's having. (I'm sure
    there's one for the inability to be truthful too)
    
    	IMHO, this man needs to get himself into _something_ along these
    lines, bending the requirements of membership if necessary in order to
    allow himself *in* - vs what I see a lot of people do; justifying to
    themselves that they "dont belong" because of this or that reason. He
    needs to get something for himself that he can then give away - develop
    a genuine interest in others or *something* beyond his own thoughts -
    and therby keep himself from the runaway self-preoccupation which is
    so clearly destroying him. 
    
    	Joe

    re .11
    
    I don't think he'll go and get that kind of help unless people stop
    helping him. Some people have to hit bottom before they look for
    recovery. If they don't recover they die. 
    
    He has to take responsibility for his own life at this stage.
    
    Sink or swim (well maybe treading)