Conference quark::human_relations

    	Sounds to me -- and I freely admit I'm basing this on sketchy
    knowledge of the situation -- like one or both of you aren't sure of
    what you want.  Until you know what you want you're going to have a
    hard time finding it.



    Brian

    
    re .0
    
    I can't give any advice, but I can point out some things that
    you may consider.
    
    - He may be going thru mid-life crisis. Once people get to a
      certain point in life (been in a relationship for a while,
      living a certain lifestyle for a while, etc), they can get
      in a rut.
    
    - When we accumulate enough life experiences, we become 
      very attractive to young adults, who are just starting
      to figure things out for themselves. 
    
    - When young adults look up to us, we feel wanted and
      important. It is always exciting to "start" a new
      relationship since everything is new and the rosy glasses
      are still on.
    
    - It is extremely hard to make a relationship work when 
      there are such a big age difference. It is probably
      fascinating for both partners at the beginning, but 
      it is difficult to "grow" together.
    
    - It would be nice if he dissolved his old relationship
      before starting a new one. But... 
    
    - He needs to understand what happened. He has to in 
      his mind decide what is important to him - the
      warmth, stability, predictibility of a long term
      relationship OR the excitment, surprises, unknowns 
      of a new relationship.
    
    - Regardless, I think he needs to know how much he 
      has hurt you, how disappointment you are at the
      breech of trust. Understanding the damage done
      is part of his lesson.
    
    - Mid-life crisis happens to a lot of people, it's almost 
      like a growing process. IMO, for those couples who
      spent the time and effort to really learn the lesson,
      forgive and choose to stay together, they'll be togeher
      for good. This is like an acid test of true love and will 
      power. 
    
    
    
    Eva

    I think you did the right thing by moving out and getting some help.
    
    I know it hurts now. Give it six months. You might not want him back.
    
    Get involved in other activities. What do you really want to do that
    has been on the back burner? Make some new friends. Take an art class.
    
    I know it's hard to do new things when your hurt. I know it's hard to
    go out...alone.
    
    What are your interests? Think about who you are. 
    
    This is from someone who has been there...
                                              

    
    	My advice would be to gather up your self-esteem and start anew.
    IMHO, he really bashed you badly, which, from what you've presented,
    was no fault of yours. Someone who thinks highly of themselves would
    not take such treatment lightly; there would be an irrevocable quality
    to that which would _no longer be shared_ with this person. Like "sex".
    	
    	I mean, protect yourself in that area. Assume he's having
    unprotected sex with his new fling; do not be willing to share with
    him what he has shared with her. It's hard...I know. I've been there.
    
    	In your injury - because this has to hurt like hell(!) - you have
    the opportunity to do some real personal growth. I know - that's the
    last thing you need to hear...I'm sorry what you described has happened
    to you - it certainly sounds as though you didnt deserve it! Keep
    reaching out, in here and elsewhere; find a heartful therapist that 
    you can go through the pain you must feel over his betrayal; find a
    heartful group of women with whom you can share what has happened to
    you. Try to remember that the pain isnt about you - it's about what
    happened to you. You've been *betrayed* and I can think of any
    circumstance where that would not hurt a lot! You have every right to
    feel sad and angry over this. Here's permission to say "you son of a
    *bitch*!"
    
    	Joe

I want to echo what Brian said (.1) regarding discovering what you want -- from
yourself, from your partner (lover?), and from your relationship.  With the
information you've provided, the feeling I get is that you're in this
relationship because "you've been there for 9 years."  

I strikes me as very telling that you call him "your lover" instead of 
"your partner" or some other broader description which encompasses the 
breadth of a relationship, not just the depth of passion. How you address
this person speaks a great deal regarding the manner in which you are 
committed to this person.

Love, and passion, will come and go in a long-term relationship, and the
foundation underneath that relationship is what will hold it together when 
one or both of you fall out of love with each other for awhile.  A long-term
relationship has to have a basis, a foundation on which to withstand these
cycles.

	What's the vision you have for the future of this relationship?
		Upon what path is it going?  

	Have you built a solid foundation, coming from common goals, common 
		values, common beliefs?

Another comment (which contradicts the suggestions from reply .4) is that
in order to maintain a long-term relationship successfully, you need to be
willing to take responsibility for your part in making that relationship 
happen -- and making it be successful.  Maintaining a relationship, long-term,
is an ACTIVE role.  You cannot be successful with it if you hand the 
success of it over to another person and claim you've been "victimized" (as
.4 is suggesting that you do).

Successful relationships do not just "happen", they are cultivated, cared for,
maintained with the same love and care with which you maintain your favorite
things around you.  If you want the relationship to be successful, you need
to take full responsibility for making that happen.  Your taking full 
responsibility does not absolve the other person from taking responsibility --
it's merely a question of whether or not you OWN the success of the 
relationship (instead of just RENTING it when it's convenient to do so).

	Are you taking full responsibility (ownership) for the success of your 
		relationship with this man?

	Is it more important that the relationship is successful and healthy
		than your need to get what you want?


Without having vision for the future of a relationship, and without taking
responsibility for maintaining the health of the relationship and supporting
it to be successful, you cannot maintain a long-term committed relationship.

And, without being willing to compromise your needs for the success of the
relationship, you cannot have it be successful.  That's why it's so critical
to base a long-term committed relationship on common values and common 
beliefs.  Then when you have to compromise, you won't be compromising your
values.

It sounds to me like you need to decide if you want a long-term committed
relationship with this person or if you've really just been in a recreational
relationship with this man for 9 years.

What I mean by a recreational relationship is one that is based mainly on 
affection and passion.  A relationship in which there is no need for a strong
foundation to be built because there is not a clear vision of path the
relationship is to follow long term.  Both members of a recreational
relationship are in it because they enjoy the time with each other, but there's
no need to jointly commit to something solid -- you're committed to enjoy each
other "while it lasts."
 
If you decide you've been in a recreational relationship, then it seems as if
the recreational relationship has played itself out and it's time to move on.
I don't get that's where you are, though....

If you decide that you have a vision for this relationship long term, and 
there is a foundation, then you need to decide if you want to commit to that
relationship and do what it takes to make it successful.

What I don't get from your note is the willingness on your part to make
a commitment to this man and , in doing so, be willing to take full
responsibility for making the relationship successful.  I don't get that
you're willing to actively manage "the relationship" to be successful -- rather
than you feel it should just "happen."

There are three entities here:
		Yourself
		Your partner (lover?)
		The Relationship

The "Relationship" entity does not have the ability to manage itself; it 
needs you to actively manage it to make it successful.  If you're not willing
to take that responsibility and do the hard work it takes to maintain it,
then it's probably time for you to acknowledge the end of the relationship
and move forward from there.

My heart is with you,

Kath

    
    	re .5 - Kath,
    
>Another comment (which contradicts the suggestions from reply .4) is that
>in order to maintain a long-term relationship successfully, you need to be
>willing to take responsibility for your part in making that relationship 
>happen -- and making it be successful.  Maintaining a relationship, long-term,
>is an ACTIVE role.  You cannot be successful with it if you hand the 
>success of it over to another person and claim you've been "victimized" (as
>.4 is suggesting that you do).
    
    	Umm, maybe in your world when your partner goes out and "screws
    around" with another that's merely a "wake-up call" to "Oh, it looks
    like I need to take more responsibility for my part in making our
    relationship work". In mine, that's a *detonation* of the whole thing!
    
    	So, what if "he punched you in the nose"? Would you look at
    yourself to see what you're doing wrong? What you could be doing more
    of or be doing better? Would you rationalize "Oh I know he didnt really
    mean to - it must be me?"
    
    	In the reality I share (with a lot of people) what this man did
    to our anonymous basenoter was something as awful as you can do to
    someone, short of physically beating them up! Emotional abuse _hurts_
    people - since when is it alright to just go out an violate someone's
    trust; betray them in such a personal and blatant way - what, to make a
    point of some sort? To indicate there's a "problem"? I dont think so!
    	
    	People, um, just dont treat other people that way - without dire
    consequences. It happens all the time, because victims let it; what I
    (.4) suggested, if anything, was to let what happened stop here...with
    this incident...and for her to go get help for herself. There are some
    people who have the courage to do that; my advice just might be taken.
    
    	Joe
    

    
    Joe,
    
    	Everyone makes mistakes. If one is courageous enough to forgive,
    out of maturity and true love, one does not deserved to be called
    a victim, a whimp or a loser, IMO. IMO, it takes much more guts and 
    maturity to understand, to accept and to forgive than to walk around
    and complain how sh*tty things and people are. 
    
    
    Eva

    
    
    As a matter of fact, it takes much more self-esteem, self-love
    and inner peace to forgive and that's why it is so hard to do.
    IMO, of course.
    
    Eva

    I just *have* to make note of this:
    
    > If one is courageous enough to forgive... one does not deserved to 
    > be called a victim,
    
    Since when is "victim" a pejorative term??  Heavy emotional abuse has
    been done to this person, IMO.  Being the target of abuse = victimhood. 
    There's nothing shameful in being a victim; the shame is on the
    *perpetrator*.
    
    Leslie

    
    re .9
    
    This is what I refer to as abusing the word "abuse".
    
    If we focus on this one incident, then yes, it is
    a wrong deed. But, people don't just wake up one
    day and decide to have an affair, IMO. Something
    must have been happening over the span of 9 years,
    on a regular basis, that leads to the dis-integration,
    IMO. This affair is just the end result of things
    going wrong, IMO. If I put this affair in perspective,
    I don't see abuse - I see a breech of trust and a
    lack of communication. A breech of trust is a mistake,
    mistake hurts people, but it is not abuse, in my book.
     
    
    
    
    Eva
    

RE: .6 (Joe)

	When a person in a "committed relationship" abuses that relationship
	whether it's through physical abuse, emotional abuse, and/or by
	violating the sanctity of the commitment, the Relationship (that 
	entity I was talking about) most often has not been managed properly, 
	and in some cases, has been ignored, for a VERY long time.

	It's not to say I validate any of these sorts of actions, nor do 
	I feel they should be shrugged off or taken lightly.  In fact, to 
	the contrary.....

	However, these sorts of actions are EFFECTS of a situation that 
	has a deeper, more long-term CAUSE for which we as partners in a
	Relationship have responsibility.  

	How we treat the Relationship will propogate into how our partner
	views the relationship.  If we don't cultivate the Relationship (the
	entity) there is no foundation built for our partner to be 
	committed to.  If we abuse the Relationship (the entity) it's more
	likely that our partner will view the relationship as supporting of 
	abuse.

	I've learned a valuable lesson in my relationships.  I've learned
	that men can be "valiant or violent" depending on how I take 
	responsibility (or don't take responsibility) for the relationship.
	I do not condone violence, and I do not absolve anyone of 
	responsibility for their actions.  But I do know that when a man 
	reacts "violently" to me, that there is ALWAYS some responsibility 
	on my part for making that happen -- and a very good indicator that
	I have not been supporting the relationship to be successful.

	Too many times in relationships we give our power away to others
	and become "victims."  When we become victims we don't learn anything
	from the experience with which we can move forward and do differently
	the next time.  We've given our power to manifest our destiny away
	to someone else.    

	People who give away their power to make choices for themselves, 
	many times don't learn what they need to to make a better choice
	the next time.  That's why people who leave abusive relationships
	often end up moving from one abusive situation to another.  

	I cannot and will not support anyone to blame someone else and not
	take responsibility for their actions.  From my perspective, that 
	stance doesn't serve any long-term purpose; in fact, it's mainly
	about ego preservation.

		Everything, everything, everything is about you
		and how you are in relationship with others.

	There's a lesson to be learned from everything....and what a gift
	those lessons are because none of us are perfect.....we can only 
	choose to learn what we need to learn in order to make a better 
	choice the next time or to affect change today.

	The basenoter wants to affect change in their relationship....in 
	order to do that, the basenoter needs to take responsibility for
	the relationship and make it happen.  The basenoter must choose 
	what is most important to them and move forward (in whatever direction)
	from there.  

	For you, Joe, your choice would be clear.....the basenoter is still 
	at the point of determining their choice.  One way to determine that
	is to determine their responsibility and personal commitment to the
	relationship.

	Food for Thought:....There is no indicator that the basenoter is 
	female.  What does your assumption that they are say about you and 
	your relationship with the basenoter (ie, your true motivations for
	answering this string and/or helping them affect positive change in 
	their life)?  

	Best Wishes,

	Kath

    
    Kath,
    
    	You are very eloquent. You've put in words very gently
    a lot of ideas that I cannot find the right words for.
    
    Eva

    Someone once said that a relationship is not 50% 50%
    
    
    
    It is 100% 100%
    
    
    Steve

    
    	Hi Eva,
    
    	>Everyone makes mistakes. 
    
    	What I did in claiming to "know you" in another note was something
    on the mistake level. Clearly you took offense, etc. That is something
    where I can say "I'm sorry" and claim "miscommunication of intent" to
    you, and perhaps if you want, you can say "I forgive you". But when you 
    say:
    
    >This affair is just the end result of things
    >going wrong, IMO. If I put this affair in perspective,
    >I don't see abuse - I see a breech of trust and a
    >lack of communication. A breech of trust is a mistake
    
    	That's *minimizing* what happened - I can tell by the tell-tale
    "just" word. "He just came at me with the butcher knife - didnt get me
    with it!". You can minimize 'anything' and get it to fall within the
    realm of sanity! People do that stuff and there's a motive right behind
    the effort it takes to bend reality like that. Sometimes it's fear;
    perhaps it's scarier to be alone than it is to continue on through the
    same situation - as horrific as it might actually be.
    
    	I've heard no mention of the definition of "abuse" that I like. I
    assume that's because it's a tough one to take on. Few people treat
    themselves in a "divine manner" - let alone anyone else. Its an
    eye-opening ideal which can help people's perspective; IMHO, if the
    basenoter was treated with the slightest smidgen of decency and honor,
    the affair couldnt have "just" happened! There would have been discussion,
    there would have been "You matter enough to me (after all these years)
    to let you know this is what's happening with me...*before* I go off
    and just do it".
    
    >As a matter of fact, it takes much more self-esteem, self-love
    >and inner peace to forgive and that's why it is so hard to do.
    >IMO, of course.
    
    	From what I've heard, forgiveness is done for *your* benefit - not
    theirs. You do forgiveness to free yourself from the bonds of negative
    attachment to what happened to you, because as long as you hold "them"
    accountable for it some way, shape or form - you're still bonded to
    them; you aint free. Key words here: "free yourself". Note how that's
    so much different than forgiving them so you can justify still staying
    bonded to them and still be in the relationship, with that phony "Oh -
    I forgave him/her" for that last incident. I bet it's hard to do - 
    
    	Joe

I have to admit to being REALLY confused here -- why does everyone assume
that some sort of abuse was occurring here?  I think we're reading far too
much into this situation.


From the limited information we're given, the basenoter had a 9 year relation-
ship with someone, and this past February was told that said SO was unhappy
and had met someone that they wanted to get to know better.  While not
pleasant, I don't see this as abuse.  I see it as simply human nature.  At
least the basenoter was notified before the exploring took place; the minimum
in civilized conduct, in my book.


Then, during the separation, both parties seem to realize that they miss the
other.  They get back together, and then the basenoter says that he is going
to move out anyway because that's what the SO had told him to do.  Why?  That's
what I wondered when I first read it.  I mean, if the basenoter really wanted
to be with aforementioned SO, why not talk about it and try to see if something
could be worked out?  That's what I would have done.


Part of the problem here is I really feel not enough information was given to
give reasonable advice.  I'm not suggesting to the basenoter to step up and
give more info -- baring one's soul in a notesfile is not to be taken lightly --
but I think most people will agree that there's a direct correlation with the
soundness of advice offered and the amount of information given in the first
place.


At any rate, I see both parties as being unsure of what they want (from the way
they seem to vacilate back and forth as to "should I stay or should I go") and
certainly don't seem committed to their relationship.  In my mind at least, when
you know what you want, and you find it, there's really no need for further
exploring -- assuming, of course, you've done your own "work" and are a whole
person to begin with.  Perhaps it's this last assumption where these two parties
are getting in trouble.  I think the other trouble they are having -- and it's
a real common one -- is communication.  I'm not convinced they've sat down and
talked things out.


My thoughts, for what they're worth.



Brian

    
    	Re .11, Kath,
    
    	I agree with a lot of what you say; probably the only place where
    we differ is that violence or abuse is somehow understandable by
    looking at whatever mismanagement, whatever ignorance over whatever
    time. To me, being assaulted with a pan of, say, hot grease is
    completely inapporpriate - no exceptions! (I dont care if I sat on my 
    duff and did nothing managerial wise in the relationship for the whole 
    nine yards!)
    
    	"If I made a decent effort at relationship maintanence - that
    probably wouldnt have happened". True - but it doesnt make it okay!
    *Nothing* warrants being abused by someone. If abuse has been comitted
    it's *not* a matter of merely realizing my own shortcomings, to be able
    to put it all back together again. That's what I thought you were
    trying to say.
    
    	I do agree with you that realizing one's own shortcomings, seeing
    their part in it, is useful - so as to avoid getting into the same
    thing again. I also agree that people who do not and cannot do this
    and thereby doom themselves to cry "victim" again and again can be
    ...a little difficult to be around. 
    
    	On your food for thought, I did make a couple of mistakes with the
    base noter's entry. Specifically, I didnt address his/her question with
    my ideas on "how can I keep this lover/relationship". And you're right,
    I didnt even notice that the gender was aspecific; I just assumed it was 
    a woman speaking. I can assure you that my conscious intention in
    responding was for helping them affect positive change in themselves - 
    not for my personal gain, other than what I get out of re-articulating
    the stuff I know and try to live my own life by. Its one way I keep
    close to it.
    
    	Thanks,
    
    	Joe

    	
    	Re .15 - 
    
>I have to admit to being REALLY confused here -- why does everyone assume
>that some sort of abuse was occurring here?  I think we're reading far too
>much into this situation.
    
    .0: "I was shocked, especially to discover that he had been having this
affair since before Christmas, and very hurt". 
    
    	I assumed an abuse occurred due to this statement. I see pain
    resulting from dishonesty, betrayal and, well, it sounds like a real
    "smack in the face" to me. As the metaphor suggests...abuse.
    
    	Joe

    
    Joe,
    
    	Things just are and I see nothing to forgive - I understand where you are 
    coming from. I needed to state that people and situations are never as simple 
    as they sound and by focusing on one or two details, we miss the rest of the 
    picture, like examining an elephant.
    
    	Analyzing this theoretically, what makes a breeech of trust sexually an 
    abuse and a breech of trust in other ways, like financially, not an abuse?
    A partner breaks a promise say by spending the vacation money on something else. 
    How come that most likely be forgiven or at least not called an abuse? Does it 
    say something about our culture and our view on sex? But shouldn't all
    promises and commitments weigh pretty much the same? 
    
    	When you hone my word "just", I believe it reflects the priority you 
    placed on the sexual aspect of the relationship. For me, it is "just"
    one of the many aspects of a relationships - it takes up say, on the
    average, 2 hours a week. It is important, but 2 out of 112 waking
    hours... I am not playing things down, or trying to rationalize things to
    make things bearable. I am trying to put things in perspective, like using our
    brains more often, instead of being driven by our emotions. 
    
    		
    
    
    Eva
    

    
>    .0: "I was shocked, especially to discover that he had been having this
>affair since before Christmas, and very hurt". 
    
>    	I assumed an abuse occurred due to this statement. I see pain
>    resulting from dishonesty, betrayal and, well, it sounds like a real
>    "smack in the face" to me. As the metaphor suggests...abuse.
    


    	Sigh -- I read that note over at least a couple times and somehow
    missed that both times.


    	Still not sure if I would term it "abuse", but I see why you did.
    Certainly, SO is not what I would call a "nice" person.


    	Interestingly, it really feels to me as if both these people are
    simply out to try and make the other jealous.  Their actions and words
    are so full of mixed signals I get confused just reading about it!



    Brian

    things have progressed since my last note. we separated for the months
    of June and July and part of August...no phone calls, letters,
    meetings, nothing. i know that he sent some time with the young  man
    that he originally asked me to leave his house for...but the young man
    apparently never moved in. i've heard from "friends" that my Ex has
    been sleeping around a fair bit, which says to me that he wasn't really
    all that interested in the young man to start with.
    
    a few weeks ago i received a 5 page letter from him. a lot of it was
    just ramblin' but 5 pages from someone who has problems writing 
    something on a postcard still means something. buried at the end of the
    letter was a request that we start couples counseling. i thought about
    for a couple days, and then phoned him with my concerns and conditions.
    
    i told him, i would agree to start counseling with him if 1) he and i
    are to remain monogamous and exclusive during the period that we are in
    counseling, starting immediately. 2) we would begin dating outside of
    counseling but we wouldn't speak of any of issues that we would discuss
    during our sessions. 3) that we would both committ to really trying to
    work on our relationship during this period of counseling.
    
    we have our first session tonight. i'm very worried because of the lack
    of committment that i'm perceiving so far...he seems to have very
    little interest in me anymore; he is very distance when we make love (i
    quizzed him about this and he admits that he is thinking about other
    men and especially about the young man that he was seeing); he isn't
    "wooing" me...no fancy/or not so fancy bottles of wine when he
    visits/comes over for dinner...in fact, other than the letter i have
    had nothing from him..no flowers, candy, silly greeting cards. 
    
    sometimes he has said that he is just still undecided. i'm doing my
    best to try 'n be patient but this indecision has been going on since
    before March. last night, i told him that i thought that he has had
    plenty of time to find himself about this and that i feel that he's
    once again stringing me along...he insists on remaining friends with
    the younger man and in fact wants him to move into one of the
    apartments in the neighborhood.
    
    i willing to try a few sessions with a counselor but my feelings are
    that he is unwilling to give up "having it all" and is somehow unable
    to see what the results of that will be. i'm already to walk away from
    the whole thing although i'm very loathe to leave what i considered to
    be a wonderful and wholesome life between us.
    
    in my past note, i refered to him as my "lover". as an older gay man
    that is generally what people of my generation use to refer to their
    partners. please don't assume that sums up our relationship which was
    as complex and fulfilling in all the ways that i perceive in my
    straight friends relationships.
    
    again your helpful comments and advice are most welcome.
    
    thanks.

    I think you need to take care of yourself first.
    
    Take some time to really think about what 'you' want. I know this is a
    hard time to do this. Especially when the emotions are involved. Your
    friend could be bringing you home that has far reaching potential. If
    your friend really loved you he wouldn't be putting you through all
    this pain.
    
    This kind of thing hit home to me this year as my brother died of aids.
    His partner however was very kind and loving to the end so I guess he
    was very fortunate.
    
    If I were you I'd think twice and maybe even three times.
    I have a tenancy to think you might be putting yourself in for the same
    song second verse. Who's to say in three months the younger man comes
    around. Your man doesn't seem very serious when he wants to maintain
    the relationship with the other younger man.
    
    Unless your friend is 'very' serious and really shows you he's sorry
    and really wants to come back..I think I'd go on if I were you.
    
    If you are not in counseling on your own besides the couples counciling
    then get in. 
    
    In my opinion your friend did you an injustice.
    
    There are other people out there that want healthly relationships.
    
    You deserve alot better than this...

	I tend to agree with the last response. It doesn't sound
	as though he's really "in" this relationship..and my question
	would be is that enough for you..and
	if it is, why ? It sounds like his mind and heart ...are elsewhere. 
	It sounds like second best for you...and, I happen to think you deserve
	to be wooed. To be first best. 

	If you don't think you are first best..then perhaps some
	help with that..counceling for you..a good look at why second
	best is good enough, might be in order ? 

	He may not have been doing you an injustice when he went
	after the other man..but, being with you and not being
	WITH you is an injustice. 

	dontcha think ?

	peace
	dotty

    
    hello:
    
    	you can listen to all the advice you want, but all
    	that thought shouldn't have to go into the relationship.
    	As the newness wears off, maybe he'll get tired of the
    	"chicken" and come to realize what's real & solid.
    	and fly back.  
    
    	good luck!  it's only my thoughts.
    
    
    
    	B

    
    	I think you're both out of reality. He's not present when you're
    making love - he's elsewhere; thinking about others. You're hoping for
    a relationship with someone who is - in an essential way, not him - or
    at least not who he is right now. Perhaps hoping that counseling will
    effect the change in him so that he'll become the person you want to be
    with. Vs the person he is right now.
    
    	It's common to be in love/fall in love with your own projections on
    someone. "Oh, if they were only...if they only didnt...if they only
    weren't - how wonderful things could be!". The only problem with this
    is it's very painful when you find - after much headbanging against the
    proverbial brick wall - that the person is not, nor will they ever be,
    necessarily, commensurate with your hopes for and dreams about them.
    
    	It's also a dis-service to do this to someone. Not to mention it's
    a dis-service to do this to yourself! Part of loving someone is taking 
    them into your heart as-is. You hear that they're sleeping around?
    As-is. You find they are disinterested and arent showing you the
    enthusiasm that you need? As-is. You can love someone and choose not to
    be sexual or romantic with them; choose better for yourself; allow them 
    to be bested by another and then let them see why - still being there. 
    Just being the "open space" for - not judging, not telling them they
    need to do this or that - whatever it is they present. Your friend
    sounds like he has a very pained heart. The interest you show him in
    agreeing to counseling is probably very soothing because it's so
    validating of him. My point is, you can do this without risk of
    infection, physical or emotional, on your part - within the sphere of
    self care and esteem.
    
    	Joe