Conference quark::human_relations

    
    - One thing to keep in mind is that friendships do evolve
      over time when new people enter our lives. Friendships
      cannot be the same all the time. Friendships that can
      waether thin and thick is the most endearing.
    
    - Second thing to keep in mind is that people go thru different
      stages in lives in which they have different priorities and
      responsibilities. We can only spread ourselves so thin.
    
    - Try to involve your friend's partner, like invite him along to
      whatever events. Bring your partner along, if you have one,
      to help ease the jealousy part. Basically, you want to show
      your friend's partner that you are a friend and you want to be
      his friend too and not his competitor. 
    
    - It is not a matter of letting go, it is a matter of caring. Since 
      you know your friend gets a "beating" after he contacts you, what
      is the point of causing him more pain? As a friend, you could 
      support him and show him your understanding of the situation. 
      You could state that you'll be there when he needs you. Life is
      strange, you'll never know how long his partner will be there!
       
    - You can not see a friend for 10 years and resume the friendship
      instantly. People's circumstances change, their looks change,
      but their hearts reamin the same.
    
    Eva
                                       
    

    
    Thanks heaps!...thats a great way of looking at it..However,
    
    
    - Try to involve your friend's partner, like invite him along to
      whatever events. Bring your partner along, if you have one,
      to help ease the jealousy part. Basically, you want to show
      your friend's partner that you are a friend and you want to be
      his friend too and not his competitor. 
    
    I don't have any interest in his partner as a friend or any way at all. He
    has caused conflict in the friendship and made me feel like the
    "baddie", accusing me of trying to break them up, when all I wanted was
    to see my friend every now and again for lunch or coffee. His partner
    has no desire to become friendly with me either. He does not comprehend
    male/female friendships at all. 
    
    I have tried to let it go, and I have accepted the change in our
    friendship, but I get angry sometimes at not being able to share things
    with someone who has been a major part of my life. I had not seen him
    for 6 months until recently, and when I did see him, he had changed a
    lot...I felt angry that I had missed out on so much.
    
    I wonder if the friendship is going to survive the anger I feel inside,
    and the 'bad mouthing' of me that comes from his partner. I feel a
    little helpless, because I can't even contact him to ask him for a
    coffee, because according to his partner, it is a plot to steal him
    away. I can't understand this kind of jealousy.
    
    Currently, I am walking away, as I can't see the point (as you said) in
    causing him pain...He'll only resent me in the future...I only wish I
    didn't have to.
    
    Thanks again...You replied very quickly!!
    
    

    
    I don't understand his partner being jealous if your female( no
    offense) intended, he sounds like he must have a problem with any
    gender? Lay it on the line with this turkey. When you love anyone
    you have to give them room (I know that sounds so cliche'... but)
    
    good luck!
    
    
    
    

    
    Well, at one stage it was a bit more than a friendship....But it's not
    like that anymore. :-)
    

    
    	IMHO, it's not your problem; it's not your difficulty - it's his!
    He's the one being presented with all the flak - let him deal with it
    in whatever way he needs to. All you need to to is *accept* the
    outcome of his choice and strategy.
    
    	I mean of course you may tell him how you feel if the outcome is
    not to your liking. But to go in and muck around with what's happening
    between them two is...overstepping your friend's boundaries. He needs
    to find his own truth in this matter. Perhaps that lesson will include
    losing you; perhaps he needs to feel that pain in order to recognize
    that what he's being presented with is just such a bunch of sh*t - and
    he deserves better from someone.
    
    	Joe
    

    
    I think I would feel the pain at the loss of the friendship...He had
    made his choices, and I did let him know I could not accept his
    decision based on the reasons behind it (jealousy).When presented with
    my opinion, he changed his decision. I'm not so much mucking around with 
    whats between them, far from it, I just want to keep in contact with my 
    friend, without feeling guilty about what his boyfriend may feel.
    
    I don't understand myself how someone can put up with such strong
    jealousy from someone who is claiming to love them!
    

    
    >I don't understand myself how someone can put up with such strong
    >jealousy from someone who is claiming to love them!
    
    There are all sorts of people in the world, some we understand and
    some we don't, we can't change it, we can only accept it. 
    
    Put yourself in the boyfriend's shoes. He probably knows that you
    don't like him. He probably knows that you had great influences
    on your friend. He probably is not secure about the relationship.
    He probably doesn't have a good understanding about relationships.
    He probably thinks that you are telling your friend your opinion
    of him. So, if you add all those things up, the boyfriend may have
    a case against you, right or wrong. 
    
    It is hurtful to you that your friend had to chose between your
    friendship and his relationship. Stupid as it seems, it happens
    rather often.
    
    
    Eva

    This is a very difficult situation (I know, I've been there).  What I
    think I would do, hindsight being 20/20 and all :-} is to write my
    friend a letter (to his *work* address, or anywhere you know it won't
    be intercepted by his partner).  The letter would explain how much I
    wanted the friendship to continue, but it would also state that I was
    unwilling to a) be treated like dirt by the partner and b) be the
    excuse that "caused" any pain/abuse to my friend at the hands of the
    partner.  I would remind him that he (the friend) can only be
    manipulated if he allows himself to be manipulated, and I would express
    alarm at the amount of control this freak--er, partner seems to need in
    a relationship.  I would advise the friend to RUN away from this
    relationship.
    
    Then I would keep my word by keeping OUT of it entirely.  And I don't
    think it would be a long wait before the relationship self-destructs. 
    If your friendship was truly strong in the first place, it can be
    rebuilt (into a true fine friendship-love, believe me).  If not, well,
    you'll have a lot of tears to cry but you will have cut yourself loose
    from something that wasn't "correct" for you.
    
    Sigh,
    Leslie

    
    I have written to him at his work address previously. Can you believe
    it, this partner went through his briefcase and found some letters I
    wrote (FUEL to the fire)..I have been asked not to give him gifts (at
    Christmas and birthdays) as it is a PLOT to Steal him away!. THAT
    hurt!. I have reminded him of the points you mentioned, but doesn't
    feel manipulated or alarmed at being restricted in his associations. 
    
    However, it is not up to me to tell him to run from the "chains".
    
    I might have mentioned, we have been in contact with each other (while
    the partner was out of the country), and he seems willing to continue
    the friendship..however, I wonder, maybe it was just a way to shut me
    up?...Who knows how his mind works...
    
    

    
    Few thoughts:
    
    - It takes TWO to tango. If your friend is happy, then be happy
      for him. 
    
    - You stated that you don't want to be firends with his partner.
      To be perfectly honest, I wouldn't want my husband to be frineds
      with people who don't like me/want to be freineds with me, for
      whatever reason. I wouldn't stop him, but I wouldn't be like it.
      There are tons of folks on this planet, I'm sure enough people 
      like me. 
    
    - Loyal friends do not let miscellaneous situations, including
      relationship change their affection. It may mean staying in
      the background when something else becomes more important
      in their lives, like relationships and parenthood and catching
      up on it again when things mellow out.
               
    - Maybe it is time for you to cultivate other friendships while he works
      on his relationship. 
    
    
    Eva

    
    I am glad he is happy, just wish I could see him every now and again.
    Believe me, I don't want to live in his pocket...
    
    The reason why I am not interested in his partner as a friend, is
    because his partner does not understand male/female friendships, and
    has never encouraged my friendship, rather he has demanded I be cut off
    completely. 
    
    I am hoping that our friendship will survive through the years, but I
    don't want to be a distant acquaintance to my friend.
    
    I have plenty of other friends, this is just one particular incident in
    my life which has flared up recently. I can let the friendship go..just
    don't know if I want to, and don't think I should have to.
    It is beyond the really painful hurting stage now, I am just curious as
    to what other people would do if faced with same situation.
    
    cheers!
    
    

    
    Hey, you never what will happen. Maybe he and his partner can get
    their relationship to a point of stablity that your friendship 
    would no longer be a threat. Or maybe he and his partner will
    slpit up.
     
    I Lost touch with a childhood friend after college. She and I
    became engulfed in our own lives, building careers and relationships
    and raising children. We have always thought about each other and
    somehow we both knew our friendship and our affection for each other
    was very much alive. We recently saw each other after 11 years of no 
    contact. Guess what, we picked up where we left off 11 years ago. We 
    both grew a lot, but not apart. The 11 years in between did not 
    dilute our frienship at all. In fact, the years aged our friendship
    like a fine wine.
    
    
    Eva

    Didn't you say you two 'used' to have more than friendship?
    
    If this is so then you should accept the friendship as it now stands.
    
    Let it go. Release it. You can still be friends but not in the same way
    or at least not a close friendship.
    
    If my so ex gave him a gift for christmas/birthday I would be asking
    questions.
    
    I'm still friends with my ex...he isn't however in my close personal
    life.
    
    I don't thing your friend is interested in causing his partner
    jealousy. 
    
    Jealousy for no reason is another story. I think your friends partner
    has reason in this case.
    
    Just understand and try not to take it personal. You'll still be
    friends.

    
    *Jealousy for no reason is another story. I think your friends partner
    *has reason in this case.
    
    BUT HE IS GAY!!!!!....and I'm FEMALE....where is the threat?
    
    

    I think the perceived threat is that (your reply .4) at one time you
    had "a bit more than friendship".
    
    However, *I* think the partner is way out of line.  I also think that,
    sadly IMO, your friend is willing to settle for this possessive
    behavior and seems to be taking the path of least resistance when it
    comes to his friendship with you.  His partner raided his briefcase:
    this tells me your friend doesn't *want* to avoid his partner's tirades
    (or he would have thrown out your letter after reading it) and he
    doesn't mind having no privacy (even if this was the first instance of
    briefcase-invasion, you don't mention anything about your friend being
    upset about it).
    
    Agreed that it's not up to you to tell your friend to "run from the
    chains"--but I think that if you do hold that opinion (and maybe you
    don't), then you have a right to express that opinion to him at least
    once.  He can ignore you or consider it.
    
    After your further input, I really think I'd walk away from the whole
    sorry mess.  Maybe they really do fit each other's needs and will ride
    into the sunset together... but I have a feeling that if you're not the
    excuse, some other scapegoat will come along and eventually your friend 
    will get fed up with his partner's hissy fits (and move into something
    healthy!).
    
    Leslie

    I think I can understand how you feel...it's a loss just the same.
    
    Not all is lost however....some but not all

    	I think what *I* would do is to tell everything that you're saying
    here in this notesfile to my friend.  Explain how you feel, that it
    hurts that your friendship seems to be suffering, etc.  All of it,
    don't hold anything back.  I prefer face to face as it allows for both
    parties to read body language.


    	If, after all that, the friendship still suffered, *then* you have
    to realize that friendship is a two way street -- it will only work if
    both parties work at it and want it.


    	I think what someone said a few notes back was very valid --
    friendships go through stages and cycles, and this may be what's
    happening to your friendship now.  Your friend may just be overburdened
    right now.


    	Also, I would *not* be demanding or hostile in any way as his
    partner seems to be.  This will only put him on a fence with two
    warring parties on either side -- possibly forcing him to make a Final
    decision.  No one likes to be backed into a corner.  Instead, be gentle
    and caring when expressing your hurt -- show him that you're not in any
    way a threat, but that you simply want to come to a compromise or
    settlement of some sort that is acceptable to all parties.


    	In the end, if none of this helps, you have to accept the fact that
    the friendship may wither.  On the other hand, it may be the case that
    your friend could eventually wise up and come back seeking your
    friendship -- there are so many possibilities.  In any case, there is
    only so much you can do.  As with relationships, you have to be willing
    to let go.


    	Regards,



    Brian

    
    Hi again,
    	Gay or not your dealing with a Bi#*h!
    	It can get vicious, most of the replies were some good, solid
    	advice. In any case, if all this thought and worry has to go into
    	because your and your friend use to be close, is it worth your
    	aggrivation?  I know how that can be. Good Luck again.
    
    	Bye

    I think you have to forget the fact that you are female and he is gay,
    as far as his partner is concerned you are an EX... 
    
    I think he is reasonable to be wary of an EX who wants to see his
    boyfriend on his own....
    
    I think you need to think really hard about whether you really only
    want to see him on his own because you don't like his boyfriend, or are
    you also jealous and want a bit of him for yourself.
    
    I don't like the new partners of my ex's, but if I wanted to still see
    them I would accept that the 'rules' have changed and its only 'right'
    to see them as a couple... at least until the new partner knows you and
    is comfortable that there is NOTHING going on...
    
    I will probably be jumped upon for taking the partners side, he should
    TRUST completely - well yes, in an ideal world, but we are only people.
    
    I suffer from jealousy and its not pleasant - even when you know its
    irrational you can't help it - its not something to hate a person for -
    my boyfriend and I discuss it, and we are dealing with it together...
    this is what your friend needs to do.
    
    You need to be more understanding... how would you feel if your current
    boyfriend used to have a gay relationship, and that guy wanted to meet
    him on his own all the time.... would you be 100% convinced he was now
    heterosexual? would there not be a lingering doubt that he was
    bisexual? are you so confident that your heterosexual relationship was
    matching up and exceeeding his gay experiences that he'd never want to
    have a gay lover again?
    
    
    Finally, real friends respect the choices their friends make, they
    don't necessarily agree - but they should support them... and be there
    in case it doesn't work out.
    
    
    
    Xtine
                                            

    
    	re - .6
    
    	I fail to see where it becomes your problem if you feel the pain
    of the loss of the friendship. I see how you can _make_ it a problem
    rather than go through that pain - but, understand; that is a choice 
    on your part. There's difficulty for you either way, so your question
    becomes which is the path of least difficulty...and which path is the
    most conscientious.
    
    	> I just want to keep in contact with my friend, without feeling 
    	> guilty about what his boyfriend may feel.
    
    	Sounds a lot like "want my cake and eat it too". I dont think
    you're going to get that - without a price paid on someone's part.
    It might be you, dealing with these feelings of guilt, which'll be 
    work. It might be your friend, seeing you anyway but very discretely - 
    which'll be work for him...It might be the boyfriend, who gets dumped
    over this whole deal, the loss becoming his to deal with.
    
    	Who's problem is this, and who do you think should pay the price
    to have it "fixed"?
    
    	Joe

    
    I don't think anyone SHOULD have to pay a price to fix this problem.
    The problem is the jealousy, in one respect, as without it, there would
    be no problem. I suspect I will be the one paying the price...I'm the
    one whose going to have to let it all go..
    
    Shame...he was such a nice guy.
    
    

    
    	Well, like I mentioned before, in doing so you might be doing him a
    real favor. Because when he feels the pain of the loss, it just might
    be enough for him to say to himself; "No, this isnt worth it; *nothing*
    is worth being mis-trusted in this way!" and he'll make some changes for
    himself, for his own good. He might become even a nicer guy as a result.
    	
    	Joe

    I think you need to take a couple of steps back and think about your
    own motives. I'm beginning to suspect that your friends partner might
    be the one who's right to be wary of you. I also think that you are
    having a tinge of jealousy yourself. Try to be objective and realistic
    about all of this. I'm sure all of this is very painful for you. I'm
    sure you can still keep your friendship...just not as close.

    
    
    >The problem is the jealousy, in one respect, as without it, there
    >would be no problem.
    
    	Well, the problem here is being human. We can chastise the partner
    all we want. We can call him names, but he hasn't done anything wrong.
    He didn't instigate this.  Given the circumstances, he is just reacting 
    to a situation. Maybe he is immature and imperfect, but aren't we all?
    
    
    
    Eva
    

    
    I think you need to take a couple of steps back and think about your
    own motives. I'm beginning to suspect that your friends partner might
    be the one who's right to be wary of you. I also think that you are
    having a tinge of jealousy yourself.
    
    The issue isn't my jealousy
    How do you figure he needs to be wary of my motives?..I don't WANT this
    guy as my partner...I just want to keep the friendship...or rather,
    after all this discussion, I have more or less decided that is really
    isn't worth fighting for. If my friend is too weak to stand up to
    the jealousy, then I don't need the heartache. 

    
    I am kind of puzzled as to what is there to fight for. If things
    are as pure amd simple as friendship should be, then friendship and
    relationship can co-exist in harmony. But, if the friendship was not  
    simply a friendship, meaning that if other kinds of feelings were
    involved, then it becomes a competition to the relationship, it
    becomes an ex-relationship. Then, in all due respect, the current
    relationship comes first. Regardless of your friend's partner
    behavior, your friend should always put his partner's well being
    first. In an ideal world, we can juggle all the balls, but in reality
    we need to set priorities. A relationship is a commitment, not a
    romantic friendship, it weighs much more than a friendship.
    No matter how strange we find some relationships, we should honor
    people's commitment. After reading more of your replies, I don't
    think what you are looking for is a vanilla kind of friendship.
    I think you are overstepping your boundary as a friend. I think
    you are asking your friend to do something that's beyond normal
    friendship, to be honest. Believe me, if my husband's ex was writing 
    letters to him or sending him presents, and didn't like me in addition, 
    I would be livid. No, I wouldn't grill my husband - I would call up the
    ex and tell her to get the h*ll out of our lives!!! And you 
    know, I fully expect my husband to do the same. 
    
    
    
    Eva   
    

    
    The gifts were given (both ways) before I knew anything about a
    partner, before I had strong feelings for him...I don't give him any
    gifts now. 
    
    I AM after a Vanilla kind of friendship, NOW. Things are different NOW
    to how they were 6 months ago....
    
    Don't you see any of your friends when your husband isn't around?..
    
    

    
    >Don't you see any of your friends when your husband isn't around?..
    
    Of course I do. But, I don't hang out with anyone who don't like my 
    husband either, whether he is around or not. I don't associate myself
    with people who don't accept me as who I am and my husband is a part
    of who I am. If a friend cannot get him or herself to understand me
    and be supportive, then he or she is a friend no more. If a person,
    friend or family, insists on being negative about my life, then I
    don't deal with him or her any more. I made a choice in my life and 
    I don't care if other people like it. The bottom line is I made a 
    commitment to a person to be there for life, not just physically 
    but in all manners, and I didn't make the same commitment to anybody 
    else, friends or family. 
    
    Don't get me wrong. I am not naive, in any stretch of imagination.
    I just believe in my own judgement and I don't need other people's
    negativity, no matter how good the intention is, in my life. Nobody
    else knows how to live my life better than I do. And I extend the 
    same courtesy and respect to others.  
    
    I understand your hurt. I am just bringing some points that may not
    be obvious. I am just hoping you can see the situation from different
    perspectives. There is no right or wrong, things just are. 
    
    
    Eva
    

    
    One more thought:
    
    What is jealousy? Jealousy is not something malicious in itself, 
    it is the expression of insecurity. It is probably not the best way 
    to express one's insecurity, but that's another topic. The only
    way to fix jealousy is to make the person feel secure, whatever
    it takes.
    
    
    
    Eva

    Goodness!  That's why there's chocolate and vanilla, I guess (no
    reflection on the "vanilla friendship" concept).  When I am in a
    relationship I certainly do not require my friends to "love me, love my
    dog [SO]".  They are different people; if they want to form their own
    friendships, fine, be my guest, but my friendships aren't dependent on
    any other people.  I *never* put up with any friendship restrictions
    that my SO tries to impose (they rapidly become a *former* SO if they
    persist in this).  Sure, jealousy is a manifestation of insecurity, and
    insecurity is a problem.  However, it is not MY problem, and I won't
    allow it to rule my life.  And I believe the only person who can "fix"
    jealousy is the jealous person hirself.
    
    Leslie

    
    Looking for perfection in an imperfect world can leave us
    empty-handed and lonely. Discriminating against human nature
    can leave us angry and confused. There are as many sets of
    true reality as there are people. Not understanding the
    varied complexities of life and not having compassion for
    people who are different from us can leave us stranded in
    our own little cave.
    
    
    
    Eva

    
    re .30
    
    Most people are not bad-natured. No one is perfect either. It
    dpends on what each one of us can and cannot tolerate. Maybe
    you can't deal with jealousy. Maybe I can't deal with the 
    main-stream. Maybe some one else cannot deal with poverty.
    Everything has a price. Every choice has pros and cons. We
    choose what we fancy us and what we can put up with. To
    simply say someone is of of no good because he/she is insecure,
    for whatever reason, too narrowly focused. Every single one of
    us is insecure to a diiferent degree. Even holding onto the one-
    selfness and  being afraid of losing one's identity due 
    to some restriction is an expression of insecurity. ;-);-)     
    
    
    
    Eva
    

    re.30
    
    yup that's how it is...a former so it would soon be if he
    kept seeing someone on the side that makes his so very upset.
    Especially without the so knowing.
    
    If you can't be honest and trust your so you don't have anything.
    
    You can't be carrying on behind their back. Even if it is friendship
    with a former so.

    
    re .33
    
    Excellent point about the trust. No trust no relationship.
    
    
    Eva 

    Well, but in a convoluted way we're making the same point.  If my SO
    doesn't trust me to have a *friendship*, then I would tell the SO to
    take a hike (hence, former SO).
    
    I wasn't talking about expecting my SO to let me sneak around and do
    the horizontal boogie with a "friend".
    
    (I never said jealous people are "bad".  They are not a good
    personality-type-fit for *me* as far as SOs go.)
    
    Leslie

    
    Thank you Leslie!!
    

    You are so intolerent of your friends 'weakness' in not being able to
    stand up to his partners jealousy....
    
    I think you sound very jealous... you are jealous that you cannot make
    your friend do what you want - you are jealous that his partner appears
    to be able to control his behaviour more than you can?
    
    
    Not much of a friendship - more like an ex-relationship?
    
         
    
    Xtine

    
    re .35
    
    The problem is trust not something to expect from someone by default.
    Trust is earned, it is gained by displaying certain honorable
    quailites, keeping promises, etc. It takes a long time to build up
    trust and it takes one or two incidents to destroy it. 
    
    So, if we look at the situation at hand, the original noter's friend,
    IMO, is not trustworthy from a relationship point of view. He has
    been doing things behind his partner's back, knowing fully well 
    his partner's hot buttons. Why should his partner trust him? Why
    should his partner trust the original noter, knowing what had happened
    before? How can we blame the partner for being insecure when all
    these things are going on in a new relationship, about 6 months old?
    If we got into the partner's shoes, we'd probably panic as well!
    
    I trust my husband 100%, since in the 12 years we've been together,
    he has NONE, not even one, incident that would lead me to question his
    faithfulness. But, if he had done anything that caused any suspicion,
    I would definitely worry. But then, if his character was not as lint
    free, he wouldn't be around this long.
    
    
    
    Eva
    
                                                                    

    
    	I'm sorry, but I just cant let this one go...;')
    
    Re .29 -
    
    	"The only way to fix jealousy is to make the person feel secure, 
        whatever it takes."
    
    	Oooooh, I dont know about that! Since when do *we* take
    responsibility for what another person feels, in a "whatever it takes"
    manner? That's *codependency*!! - it's a very dangerous thing to do
    and is nothing even remotely like "compassion". That stuff can kill you 
    BTW...snuff your life right out...if taken to extremes.
    
    	"Jealousy" is their problem. THEIR problem! As long as someone isnt
    deliberately aggravating that quality in another - as long as this is
    just an ordinary life situation, of the kind that life will just happen
    to present from time to time (which it sounds like to me...) it's
    trully and wholly the jealous person's difficulty to bear. No one else
    has to do anything to "take care" of their feelings. 
    
    	In fact, if you do anything to take them out of their feelings,
    you're actually doing them a diservice! You're short-circuiting the
    opportunity for them to work though it; investigate whats behind the
    feeling and maybe come to some new and profound understanding of
    themselves; learn how to get though it already; find some security for
    themselves in and of themselves - all on their own! 
    
    	IMHO, in my model, if the friend submits to his lovers jealousy
    what you have here is a lose-lose-lose situation.
    
    	Joe

    Good to hear your voice in here again, Joe.  [I had *thought* that
    would be your opinion too  :-) ]
    
    Leslie

    Also re .38 (trust), I was under the (perhaps mistaken) impression that
    the romantic segment of OSG_AC and friend had ended, reverted to
    platonic friendship only, BEFORE the partner arrived on the scene.
    
    Now, the partner can and does throw fits "forbidding" any contact with
    our basenoter; who is he to "forbid"?!  Certainly his input is worthy
    of consideration, discussion, etc., but hey--Lincoln FREED the slaves.
    
    Leslie

    
    Joe,
    
    	Hold your horses...
    
    	Some people needs $ to feel secure, some people
    needs lots of hugs and kisses, some people needs their
    own identity, some people needs daily phone calls, 
    some people need good track records, some people need
    other things...That's what I meant by whatever it takes. 
    
    	Since when is each and every one of us perfect
    and secure? Are we all supposed to wait until we are all 
    perfect to be involved in any relationship? Most people aren't
    even close to perfect by the time they hit the coffin.
    This is where compassion and true love come in. We need
    to understand that no one is perfect, everyone has a
    different set of problems to work on. In the book 
    "The Road Less Travel", the author brought a good point
    about love. If we love a person, we help the person to
    grow spiritually. We are not responsbile for the person,
    but out of love, we help the person work through their
    problems. I mean, if we know our partner had some bad
    experience and is insecure, would we tell our partner
    that it is his/her own problem? Well, like it or not,
    it had become our problem. We can either ignore it -
    it is not going to get better by itself - or help in
    any way we can. Afterall a relationship/marriage is a 
    commitment that says the partner will be with us for the 
    rest of our lives, even when we are poor, sick, old and 
    wrinkled, and dying. And we are saying to them - this is 
    your own freaking problem, you go fix it yourself? Do we 
    say that to our children? I hope not. Children grow up, 
    move away and have their own lives. Partners stay around 
    till the end. Is it too much to ask ourselves to be considerate
    about our partner's shortcomings? Or are we just too damn
    self-centered to even think about our partner's feelings?
    Or we too short-sighted to understand that people do grow
    and that we have 40-50 years in front of us to become
    better persons? Little toddlers are wicked jealous and so
    are we supposed to shut them out... Come on, let's not get
    stuck in the I/me/myself/my rights rut. What is the point
    of being with someone who can't understand and tolerate
    our shortcomings? Everyone likes our good points. We might
    as well live by ourselves. I am not saying we are responsible 
    for someone's weakness, I'm saying that if we love someone, 
    we will not rub salt into their old wounds. This is real life, 
    not a classroom. 
      
    	In trying to live by some societal ideals in this imperfect 
    world, we lose touch with our own heart and soul. We lose our
    humanity and comapssion because we are told that our loved ones 
    problems are not our own. We lose our sense of honor when we let
    our love ones suffer. We all live in this rigid ME compartment
    and still never be able to see and feel beyond. Don't you see
    the irony of it all - trying to protect ourselves from hurt
    by not loving truly and totally. In the end we are the losers 
    because we can't get the kind of trur love we are looking for?
    How can we expect people to love us for life when we can't even 
    help bandaging their wound? We can only take out when we put in.
    
    
    	                                                     
    
    Eva

    
    Our lives are full of pain, hurt, wars, death, deceit,
    loses, failures, lies, disappointments. Our lives are 
    also full of good things.It is wicked easy to find people 
    to celebrate our
    fortune, to share our fun. But how many people can
    we find in our lives to stand by us when all the bad
    things happen? The 1 or 2 people who promise to stick 
    around thru thin and thick, we are going to tell them 
    to take a hike with their bad experiences and their 
    shortcomings? Is this stupidity or what? Or am I 
    missing something?!  
    
    
    
    Eva

    
    Before there were therapists/counselors/psychologists/self-help
    books/meetings, there were plain old friends/family members/respected
    elders/religion to help people go thru tough times. Essentially,
    we are as a society delegating an important job to a group of
    professionals. The professionals are making good money and we are
    as unhappy as ever. Wonder why. 
    
    
    Eva

    .42> And we are saying to them - this is 
       > your own freaking problem, you go fix it yourself? Do we 
       > say that to our children? I hope not.
    
       >  Little toddlers are wicked jealous and so
       >  are we supposed to shut them out...
    
    We are not speaking here of children but of unrelated adults, whose
    nurturing should have been provided by their parents.  If this was
    lacking, peer compassion is surely commendable, but the ultimate
    responsibility (I didn't say blame) for "fixing" things like severe
    insecurity lies with the individual.  ("Your right to swing your
    [jealousy] arm ends at my nose.")
    
    Leslie

    
    >We are not speaking here of children but of unrelated adults, 
    
    We are talking about a partner in a relationship, not any person
    off the street. If someone becomes our partner, then they are
    as important and close and related to us as our children, if not
    more. 
    
    
    Eva

    >The professionals are making good money and we are as unhappy as ever.
    >Wonder why. 
    
    I'm not as unhappy as ever; I'm a lot less unhappy, and I expect
    this trend to continue -- a direct result of paying good money to
    professionals.  For me, it has been worth it.  Friends helped, but the
    truly important work needed professional guidance.  Family? Religion?
    Hardly -- they were the cause -- they definitely don't have the cure.
    
    					andrew

    
    I'm not intolerant, I just can't understand it. You have to be in my
    shoes to know what I am looking at. You don't know this person, you
    don't know that it is totally out of character to allow himself to be
    controlled by someone else. 
    
    Don't jump down my throat. I only asked what advice people could give!
    
    

    *fortune, to share our fun. But how many people can
    *we find in our lives to stand by us when all the bad
    *things happen? The 1 or 2 people who promise to stick 
    *around thru thin and thick, we are going to tell them 
    *to take a hike with their bad experiences and their ....
    
    Yes, but when you want to stick with someone, but the OTHER of the 1 or
    2 just can't cope with that..
    
    What are you to do then?...Hence, my original question.
    

    
    re .49
    
    >Yes, but when you want to stick with someone, but the OTHER of the 1
    >or 2 just can't cope with that..
    
    I think you've misintrepreted my note. I was referring
    specifically being tolerant/considerate of a partner's weakness 
    in a relationship/marriage/commitment, not a friendship. 
    There are only 2 people involved in a relationship and the
    commitment is between of them. You don't stick with someone
    if they already have someone to stick with. A relationship
    supersedes a friendship if you have to prioritize it. 
    This is why I said before that I think you've crossed the
    friendship boundary. 
    
    About the out of chacracter, etc. Think about this for a second.
    Each of us have frineds who have different interests and backgorund,
    but our friends have similar values and outlooks as ours. If your 
    friend uses the same yardstick to choose friends, does it ring a bell
    if he chooses a "jealousy, inconsiderate" person as a partner. It
    could mean that your perception of the partner is off. It could mean
    that you and the partner are simliar. Or it could mean that your
    friend is not consistent. You would like to think that your friend
    is inconsistent in picking out people. But have you consider the other
    possiblities? I don't think you are honest or in touch about your
    feelings. 
    
    Of course, I don't know you, your friend and his partner. I can only
    read your notes and reply to the info that you supplied. I am not
    taking any stand or passing any judgement or promote any beliefs. I 
    am trying to be objective and point out some of the less obvious 
    possibilities. I am also tyring to state the basic values and expectations 
    that we consdier as guidelines in human interactions. You don't have to agree with 
    I say. Sometimes, the truths are the hardest things to face, especially
    when things are not going our way. 
    
    
    
    Eva
    

    
    re .47
    
    One thing we need to keep in mind is that we, this generation in
    US, is only a teeny, tiny sampling of data. Your observation about
    family and religion may be correct of this country for the past
    30 years or so. What about the rest of the world? What about people
    before then? If things had always been so bad, wouldn't we be extinct
    by now? Believe it or not, a well known psychology, Miller, from Cambridge
    said in a magazine that Buddha was a psychologist, a wicked good one. 
    He also said that a lot of the practicing psychologists are closet
    Buddists (Zen and other varities). The longest continuously surviving 
    civilizations/cultures, India and China (for 8 thousand years), had 
    always followed simliar teachings and are extremely family orientated. 
    Human beings would not have survived all tens of thousands of years of 
    hardship without a support system of family/friends/religion.
    
    Just because we, in this generation, had bad experiences with 1 or 2 
    forms of religion does not mean that all religions are like that.
    Just because we, in this generations, had bad experiences at home,
    does not mean all families are like that. Visit other countries,
    especially ones that have been around longer than we have, we'll
    have a better idea what life and family is about.
    
    
    
    Eva
    

    	I agree with Joe big-time on this one -- you *don't* "fix" things
    in others.  They fix them, or they don't get fixed.  Period.  No ifs,
    ands or buts.


    	I tried a couple times when I was younger.  I was dating someone
    with low self esteem, and tried in every way I could think of to show
    her how *I* viewed her.  None of it helped one jot.  I finally realized
    that for most if not all things like that, each of us has to find those
    things for ourselves, in our own time and way.  It's kinda like doing
    math problems -- you can be shown the answer, but unless you've gone
    through the process of figuring it out yourself you won't understand
    it.  Sorry to use an analogy so far disconnected, but it was the first
    thing to come to mind.  ;-)


    	Andrew's comments remind me of something I heard once (from a
    comedian, I think).  They said, "Of *course* your family knows all your
    buttons -- *they* installed them!"  True in many cases.



    Brian

    
    Brian,
    
    	I understand what you are saying, but I don't think you
    understood what I was getting at.
    
    	There are two scenarios. One - you know what's wrong with them,
    they don't understand what's wrong with them and you try to fix them.
    Two - you and them understand what is wrong with them and you support
    and help them to fix themselves. I never meant the scenario one, no
    where in any of my entries. All along I meant Two. Maybe I am taking
    an uncommon stand, but I don't think I should be quoted out of
    context.
    
    	What I got from Joe and some others is that scenario Two
    is not acceptable and that we can tell them to take a hike - like
    come back when they are straight.
    
    	I understand this is a touchy subject for some of us. But
    let's try to give people a benefit of the doubt and not get sucked
    into the negative vortex.
    
    
    Eva
    	

    
	Re .50, Eva -
    
    >There are only 2 people involved in a relationship and the
    >commitment is between of them. You don't stick with someone
    >if they already have someone to stick with. A relationship
    >supersedes a friendship...
    
    	So...what happens when someone you know, in a relationship, is
    about to make a grave error in it - and as a friend you can see that
    from the distance, while they cannot in being "in it"? Do you just let
    them go on without a word because "the relationship" is somehow holier 
    than the...mere friendship you share?
    
  	I always thought that your best friend was the one who would extend
    themselves to tell you that which might be most difficult to hear - in
    the face of whatever - staying out of it beyond that. Does someone really
    lose the right to say "Hey, er, look at what's happening here!" because
    they may be addressing sacred space? That sounds like an ancient and
    pervasive tradition to me...I dont buy your survival argument BTW; ancient 
    traditions are *not* necessarily the best way to go today, just because
    they may have served a practical purpose at some point in history.
    
    	Re .53 -
        
    >	What I got from Joe and some others is that scenario Two
    >is not acceptable and that we can tell them to take a hike - like
    >come back when they are straight.
    
    	There's also the idea of "tough-love". Sometimes, the best thing
    you can do for someone is to let them fall on their face, "hit their
    bottom with it" so to speak. There's a joke in the recovery circles
    that a "slip" in Al-ANON is to have a moment of compassion for the
    alcoholic. They call it "tough" because it's hard to do -
    
    	While the character anomaly of jealousy may not be quite in the
    same league as alcoholism, enabling either by changing your own
    behavior to fit whatever circumstances the other person creates is
    *not* a good solution! I'm sure you can see how, in either situation,
    that may "seem" like you're being supportive, but in reality you're not. 
    
    	The story has been told thousands of times; of the long-suffering
    wife who calls her husband's job to give an excuse as to why he's not 
    going to be in work today.
    
    	Joe

    
    Joe,
    
    >So...what happens when someone you know, in a relationship, is
    >about to make a grave error in it - and as a friend you can see
    >that from the distance, while they cannot in being "in it"? Do you just
    >let them go on without a word because "the relationship" is somehow holier
    >...
    
    	Again, please put this in context. IMO, the situation here is that 
    a more-than-a-friend/ex wants to keep the friendship/maybe-more-than-a-
    friendship going while the other is already involved in a relationship.
    To put it plain and simple and blunt, the ex cannot let go. 
    
    	Like it or not, a marriage/relationship is more important than a
    friendship, if someone has to choose, IMO. You don't have to assume
    your friends' debts, bad credits, responsiblity to take care of them
    when they are old and sick and dying. A marriage/relationship is a
    commitment/promise we make to another person that we'll share our
    life with the person. IMO, it is not a matter of holier/sacred-er,
    it is a matter of hard work, compromise, and discipline. It is a
    bigger/stronger/more serious commitment than a friendship, IMO. 
    Maybe you and I have different ideas of what relationships and
    friendships are about and thus the disagreement here. 
    
    	Yes, we could "give" advice to friends when they ask advice,
    but if they are happy, should we tell them that they should not be
    happy?! It's back to your "you can't fix them if they don't want
    to be fixed". And it seems to be this is the case here.
    
    >Tough love...
    
    	Yes, we have to let people find their own limits - let them
    fail; that is part of helping people. Helping people, IMO, does 
    not make holding their hands or spoon feeding them. To me, it
    means being aware of their problems, show them different options,
    and pros and cons of each option, be prepared to be there when 
    they fail. Sure, everyone has to go thru the tunnel alone, but
    there is nothing wrong with bringing along a cellular phone, I 
    think.
    
    
    Eva

Eva,


I assumed scenario 1, by virtue of the fact that I take scenario 2 for granted.
That is, I *assume* that supporting someone when they need help is something
that we all do; a rather optimistic outlook I grant you.



Brian

    
    Brian,
    
    	The confusion here is we have no indication that scenario 1
    actually happened. Scenario 2 could be happening since the friend 
    didn't seem to mind the fits. Another scenario could be the friend 
    made up or exaggerated the jealousy bit so that he could get out of 
    the "friendship" easier. 
    
    
    Eva

    **	Again, please put this in context. IMO, the situation here is that 
    **a more-than-a-friend/ex wants to keep the friendship/maybe-more-than-a-
    **friendship going while the other is already involved in a relationship.
    **To put it plain and simple and blunt, the ex cannot let go. 
    
    The more-than-a-friend (NOT ex), wants to keep the friendship, NO more
    than that....
    
    Just wants to be friends without causing arguments...
    
    Has let go...
    
    
    

    
    re .58
    
    >The more-than-a-friend (NOT ex), wants to keep the friendship, NO more
    >than that....
    
    >Just wants to be friends without causing arguments...
    
    	You can call it anything you want. To me, it came across as
    the way I put it, from the little information you've provided. We can 
    agree to disagree.
    
    
    
    Eva

    Hey OSG_AC,
    
    How dare you presume to know your own situation!  :-D
    
    Apparently in Eva's world, downgrades do not exist; therefore your
    (consistent) input appears illogical, therefore she must "agree to
    disagree" with your reality.
    
    Leslief

    
    Leslie,
    
    	I never presumed to know her situation. I read what
    she wrote, just like everyone else in here. I responded
    per my interpretation of what I read. And so do you.
    All I am trying to do is stay as un-emotional as possible
    and be objective about what I read. 
    
    	Since when do I have to appease everyone? Since
    when do I have to put aside values and principles so as to 
    fit in the latest trend? I don't care if the rest of the world 
    think I am political incorrect. If I think an object is a shoe, 
    I'll call it a shoe, no matter how unpopular that makes me. I 
    am not going to call it a hat, just because someone wants me to 
    think and say it is a hat, or because the rest of the crowd 
    calls it a hat for whatever reason. Obviously, no one has to 
    agree with me on anything. I know who I am, what I stand for,
    and no amount of peer pressure is going to change me. No one
    has to like me, either! 
    
    
    
    Eva

    
    Leslie,
    
    	Yes, I cannot presume that she knew the entire
    picture either, it would be naive for me to do so. If she knew 
    the entire picutre, she wouldn't be here asking for 
    suggestions, the answer would be obvious to her, IMO. When 
    I went back and look at all her entries, it was obvious
    to *ME* what she was seeking was more than a friendship,
    once I cut thru the emotional stuff. Sure, it may be hard
    for her to hear, but it is not my style to cover up the
    grud. If people want to pass judgement based on emotions and
    one-sided views, that's fine with me. But they can't get me
    to narrow my mind.
    
    
    Eva  

    
    Lets not get all fluffed up about it. I have received some good
    advice...but nobody ever listens to every piece of advice. This simple
    fact was that I DID once want more than friendship, but that was BEFORE
    I knew there was a relationship with another man involved. Since I
    accepted that fact, and I have, I only wanted to remain friends with my
    friend, without having it painted as a plot!....
    
    I understand your viewpoint Eva, but you speak from the perspective of
    a Marriage type of committment. The relationship I am referring to in
    my notes is one between two gay men, of which I had no idea about at
    the time, and of which I was then led to believe did not really exist. Had
    my friend acted as though he were gay, and in a committed relationship, 
    then the feelings between him and I would have been kept inside, and then 
    I wouldn't have needed to "defend" my friendship with him. 
    
    I certainly don't expect to have to give up my friend should I be in a
    relationship with someone, and I don't see why he should...
    
    You have provided me with some valuable points, of which I have thought
    about and decided that , No, in actual fact, the friendship is not
    worth fighting for, on the sheer basis of trust, as there were many
    lies surrounding the complications that caused this problem. 
    
    Still, it is with regret that I do so, as this person makes me happy,
    and I admire him a lot for many other reasons...should he wish to
    remain in contact, then I will have no qualms.       

    OK, OK, OSG_AC hasn't asked me to defend her, so I'll get off this
    merry-go-round.  I thought .59 was a rude contradiction of the
    basenoter's very specific statement (.58) of her expectations for the
    friendship at the time she entered the basenote.  So I tried to figure
    out what could make you (essentially) call her a liar.  Now I don't
    care what your motivations are.
    
    Leslie

    
    re. 63
    
    I apologize if I ever came across as judgemental and offensive. 
    I am not good at being subtle, but I'd never pass judgement on 
    others' actions because it is not my place, we are all humans and 
    I've made my share of mistakes in my life.
    
    A lot of my comments about relationships/jealousy/... in this string
    were directed towards the prevailing trend of people passing judgement
    on other people based on a few keywords and this whole thing turned into 
    a rathole.
    
    I'm sorry if I've made this experience unpleasant for you. 
    
    
    
    Eva

    
    Leslie,
    
    >So I tried to figure out what could make you (essentially) call 
    >her a liar.
    
    	You are free to interpret anything you read the way that suits
    	you. 
    
    >Now I don't care what your motivations are.
        
    	Same here.
    
    
    Eva

	Just to through a bit of "food for thought" that I haven't seen 
	mentioned in this string so far.

	In the basenote, you mentioned:

>What would be the best thing to do with the neglected friendship I have with 
>this gay man, who must endure an enormous amount of argument at home with his
>jealous boyfriend every time he has contact with me?

	One of the most difficult parts of a relationship with a bisexual person 
	is coming to terms with an internal fear that perhaps the person you're 
	with will sometime, somehow, want to go back to dating the opposite sex
	than you are.  

	The reason this is such a huge fear is that it's not personal against 
	us...that, in fact, our mate might feel a pull in a direction that we 
	have no possibility in being able to provide for them.

	What you may be experiencing in your relationship with this man is his 
	desire to work with his partner's possible lack of trust that he might 
	leave him for a woman.  

	If this is the case, you are not a particular woman in yiour friend's 
	life, rather you represent that whole concept over which he has no 	
	control.  He cannot provide his mate (your friend) with what women 
	can provide him.

	If you truly want to continue your friendship with your friend, then 
	you need to concentrate on the fact that your friendship with him 
	INCLUDES his mate....and that, to support your friend in his 
	relationship with this man, you must BE trustworthy as a female friend 
	to your friend.  You must respect your friend's boundaries that he is 
	placing on your friendship with him, and you must have your friendship 
	with him on HIS terms.

	If you're not willing to do that, then you should consider letting 
	it go. You are not the number one priority in his life, in fact, it's 
	clear that although you're a friend, when it comes to priorities in 
	his life, his partner takes precidence over you.

	So, my "advice" is to have the relationship with your friend on his 
	terms...be trustworthy in that relationship, and support him to have 
	what we wants (this partner).  Or let go.......

	You can't hope to have this friendship with this man be successful
	if you're approaching it from the perspective of what YOU get out 
	of it.


>>My friend assures me he still wants the friendship with me..then why is 
>>it so stagnant?
    
	Because, again, on the list of priorities, you're lower on the
	list.  If you want this friendship, you must accept it on those
	terms.

	Are you in a relationship at this time?

	Best Wishes,

	Kath


	

    
	Are you in a relationship at this time?
    
    
    	No.
    

>	Are you in a relationship at this time?   
>    
>    	No.
 
	Just a rhetorical question you might want to consider the answer 
	to....  

		Would your perspective on the importance of this 
		friendship in your life change if you were in a 
		relationship with someone else?   


	Kath 

    
		Would your perspective on the importance of this 
		friendship in your life change if you were in a 
		relationship with someone else?   
    
    
    NO....HOW MANY TIMES do I have to explain that I only want to see him
    every now and again, see how things are with him..I DON'T want to live
    in his pocket. Just a coffee once in a while!!!
    
    

    
    re. 70
    
    	I hear your frustration.
    
    	Two things, all IMO:
    
    	- It is ok to feel hurt/pain and it is ok to want to
    	  continue with a good thing, whatever it was. I never
    	  pass any judgement on you and your feelings. There is 
    	  no right or wrong, no good or bad with feelings and
    	  emotions. It is what we do with these feelings and
          emotions, whether we act them out - let them drive our
          actions, let them cancel out our logic - that is
    	  of concern.
    
    	- It helps to deal with the feelings the way they are,
    	  not the way the world thinks is proper. When we start
    	  to worry what other people will say when we tell them
    	  how we really feel about something, then we start to
    	  "hide" our true selves so we can protect ourselves from
    	  others' judgement and criticism.
    
    
    Eva