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Conference quark::human_relations

Title:What's all this fuss about "sax and violins"?
Notice:Please read all replies to note 1
Moderator:QUARK::LIONEL
Created:Thu Jan 21 1993
Last Modified:Fri May 09 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:133
Total number of notes:1901

69.0. "Help with violent spouse" by QUARK::MODERATOR () Wed Apr 20 1994 16:04

    The following entry has been contributed by a member of our community
    who wishes to remain anonymous.  If you wish to contact the author by
    mail, please send your message to QUARK::MODERATOR, specifying the
    conference name and note number. Your message will be forwarded with
    your name attached  unless you request otherwise.

				Steve






    I am looking for some advice from fellow noters out there with regard
    to a very difficult situation which I have found myself in.
                  
    I have only recently married and have discovered that my spouse has a
    tendency towards violence.  It started off with them grabbing my arm
    to, say, make me go to another room, pushing me and then grabbing my
    face and seemingly trying to remove my nose from my face.  The latter
    incident happened only 3 days after we got married I'm heartbroken to
    say.
                  
    These incidents were not entirely unprovoked, they always happen 
    during an argument which has gone too far.  Things get smashed,  ie
    mugs, crockery, then dents will appear in the wall etc.  Next thing I
    know the assault is on me.  My spouse has been to see a 
    Psychotherapist and underwent hypnotherapy which seemed to temporarily
    help, although I think it just made them calmer and less prone to
    flying into an uncontrolled rage.
                  
    My spouse seems to be unstable, has low self esteem, is outrageously
    jealous and has an uncontrollable temper if challenged and a tendency
    towards slight bullying.  All of the above was kept hidden before we
    got married although we did live together briefly before marriage.
                  
    The most frightening part is that my spouse has a parent who started
    off slapping their partner during an argument which then progressed to
    repeated punching until my spouse intervened.  I'm writing this note
    now because last night I got 'slapped' very, very hard across the
    face, I still have a headache now.  The reason?  I was hysterical,
    which I wasn't, anyway that wouldn't justify a clout that nearly
    knocked me out (which was after I was  pushed against the settee in an
    effort to stop me from going out to end the argument).  I think I know
    what might happen next time.....
                  
    Should I leave? Kick my spouse out?  We've just built a life 
    together.... they are deeply sorry and tearful as always and 'it won't
    happen again'.  If I end the relationship my spouse has promised to
    end their life.
                  
    info on similar experiences and of course, any advice.  I'm 50/50 as
    to whether I should end the relationship.
    
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
DateLines
69.1You Matter....MKOTS3::LENNONWed Apr 20 1994 17:0212
    Since you asked:
    
    	YOU need to get professional help RIGHT AWAY.  Please take care
    of yourself and stop questioning your spouses behavior.  Why are you
    allowing this to happen????
    
    	GO to EAP or GO to the nurse, but do something NOW.  This is
    unacceptable behavior.
    
    Hugs (I'm sure you need one),
    
    Julia
69.2the truth...ASDG::CALLWed Apr 20 1994 17:5116
    Get out now....
    
    I lived with this and we went to couseling...the only thing I learned
    is that once it starts....it only gets worse. One of these times you'll
    be finding yourself in the hospital. It might be a broken arm or worse.
    The worse is that you could find yourself in the ugh 'morgue'. I'm very
    serious about this. Everyday I hear of this happening. Please call
    411 and ask for the hotline. They will tell you what your options are.
    I would ask for the real truth from the hotlines. They will help you
    deal with this. Please do it today.
    
    I used to 'run' from my home in fear. It's been 15 years and I'm still
    affected. Don't believe the I'm sorries...it's part of the cycle.
    
    I know this isn't what you want to hear....
    
69.3Let me echo the previous repliesUSCTR1::WOOLNERYour dinner is in the supermarketWed Apr 20 1994 19:1626
    .0> Should I leave?
    
    YES.  Go while the getting is good.
    
      > We've just built a life together...
    
    But you know what kind of a life that's turning out to be, and you KNOW
    you don't want that, right?
    
      > If I end the relationship my spouse has promised to end their life.
    
    Do NOT submit to this emotional blackmail.  If you don't end the
    relationship, IMO there's a good chance your spouse will end YOUR life. 
    Your life is the one you (still) have control over; save it.  Remember
    what you told us:
    
      > I think I know what might happen next time....
    
    Everything I've read and heard about batterers says they're *always*
    sorry, they always promise never to do it again, and it always
    escalates.  Call a hotline, find a temporary safe place to stay--you
    can find a permanent place LATER.  Just get out.
    
    And let us know how you're doing.
    
    Leslie
69.4:-(MIMS::ROBINSON_BWed Apr 20 1994 20:2721
    
    
       Let me say first of all, It's not your fault in any way. It is your
    husband that is wrong. (very wrong) As already stated I know its
    not what you want to hear but you need to get out now. Your husband
    needs to get some serious help.  It will be better if you just leave
    without any notice. Dont give him any idea where you will be staying.
    You can call him if the need arises. 
       I can imagine that it will be very hard since you just got married,
    but its not your fault since you say he kept all of his problems hidden
    from you. Dont think that you might have provoked him. If you are truly
    in love with someone, there is nothing that could make you hit them in
    anger; nothing.
       I'm not saying that there is no hope for your husband, but there is
    no reason to subject yourself to his outbursts while he learns to deal
    with his anger. 
       I wish you the best of luck. and lots of hugs too.
    
    
                                                Brian
       
69.5adviceEMASS::RAGUCCIThu Apr 21 1994 00:365
    take all their advice, and leave, for now while you can.
    
    
    				good luck.
    					BR
69.6Take Charge, draw a line, and enforce it.SNOC02::HAGARTYDMein Leben als HundThu Apr 21 1994 07:4720
69.7Go!NASENG::HEATHERmist illusion rips awayThu Apr 21 1994 13:1719
    Dear Anon,
      You know this - I can hear it in your words - You need to get out
    now.  I'll echo everything else that has been said.  This behavior
    will only escalate - he will always be sorry later, and it will just
    keep happening again.  Find a save place, give no warning and *leave*
    now, for your health and safety.
    
      Threatening to kill one's self if another leaves is, as has been
    pointed out emotional blackmail - and what he does or does not do if
    you leave is his issue, not yours.  Go, while you still have your
    own life.
    
      You do not deserve this, you did not provoke it.
    
      Keep us posted on how you are doing - my thoughts and prayers are
    with you.  
    
    bright blessings,
    -HA
69.8Understanding /= making all rightGALVIA::HELSOMThu Apr 21 1994 13:2735
I agree with all the previous replies that you should get out right away, no
matter how difficult it seems. Hopefully by now you're in contact with an
appropriate agency--your local police or women's refuge (assuming you are a
woman), and the services they refer you to. We don't want to read about you in
the police blotter.

I also agree with the noter who said that you shouldn't rationalise your
partner's behaviour. Your note seems to imply that the fact that your partner's
parents had an abusive relationship could provide a key to therapy. But your
partner probably thinks it justifies beating you up.

I've often wondered why people hang around to be abused. The "women who love too
well" literature depicts the situation of many of them, but doesn't explain it.
But there was a study published three or four years ago which rings true with my
experiences of people who had one parent who abused the other

This study suggests that a child begins by identifying with the abused parent
(usually the mother), often because the child is also abused. But if the child
is a boy, he learns to imitate the abusive behaviour as part of becoming a man,
while also retaining sympathy for the abused partner. This can mean that men
whose fathers abused their mothers can be very sympathetic to women, and offer
nurturing and support to them because they want to make up for the abuse their
father inflicted. But they have also learned their father's behaviour, and hand
out the abuse that allows them to sympathise with the abused partner.

This is a particularly vicious circle because what makes men from an abusive
background attractive derives from the same life-history as their tendency to
abuse. So I'd say again that the only way out for you is out the door and into a
safe place.

Helen

Sorry to gender this discussion when you don't want to discuss the topic. If
you're a man with an abusive woman partner, the same applies: don't hang around
to be damaged.
69.9Reply from anonymous author of base noteQUARK::MODERATORThu Apr 21 1994 13:3133
    Thanks everyone for your replies, I didn't expect any for days at 
    least!
                  
    Last night my spouse apologised, lots of tears, flowers etc etc  which
    I'm already hardened to.  BUT, I asked him not to go after  he packed
    his bags.  I'm stupid but I love him.  To further  complicate matters
    grossly I was going through a divorce when I  met him and I'm still
    clearing up the aftermath of that, I  couldn't cope with all of that
    again.
                  
    Should I stay and help him deal with his anger, for which he says  he
    desperately needs my help??  Could he get better??  I am an 
    antagonist, I can't keep my mouth shut and I KNOW that is not an 
    excuse for his behaviour but my persistent back chat does spark  him
    off.
                  
    I feel such a fool, I've made such a mess of my life and I'm  still
    young.
                  
                  
    If I just left he would call me at work and keep me on the phone 
    (which he does if we've been fighting) and worse still he would 
    probably come into the office and cause a rumpus.  We have a  joint
    bank account and huge financial commitments with just  setting up home. 
    It's not as easy as just walking out without  notice, which is what I
    did to my ex-husband.
                  
    I know that keeping the PEACE would allow him to get through his 
    treatment, I haven't done in the past as I don't see why I should 
    become a mouse.  Should I give it a try short term??
                  
    Thanks All, heaps and heaps.
    
69.10NASENG::HEATHERmist illusion rips awayThu Apr 21 1994 14:0324
    Anon,
      Nothing has changed.  He has apologized, and upped the ante by
    offering to leave.....he *will* hit you again.
    
      Your "back chat" is *not* the problem - his violence and temper
    is.  You are still apologizing for him and minimizing what is going
    on - I know - I've done it myself - I was abused as a child.....but
    it wasn't as bad as some others I know, so I was constantly saying
    it wasn't so bad....as least "this or that" didn't happen.  It
    *was* that bad.....your situation *is* that bad.
    
      In my opinion, if you stay and "help him deal with his anger" you
    will be hit more and more frequently, and spend time in the emergency
    room.  And if you "change your ways" for him in the "short term" you
    will begin to lose yourself.  That's also something I've done, and it's
    horrible and takes a very long time to get yourself back from.  Don't.
    
      Money/houses/finances can be worked via an attorney if need be.
    They are not excuses to stay and be battered.  No one deserves that.
    
      I still say get out.  
    
    bright blessings,
    -HA
69.11ELESYS::JASNIEWSKIWhy not ask why?Thu Apr 21 1994 14:0635
    
    	Re .0 - 4 ideas for you:
    
    	On one hand -
    
    	   Watch the place in yourself where you're drawn to conspire with 
    	   him in the abuse of another human being - that other human being
    	   just happens to be *you*. An argument gone too far? Not even
           entering into it with him may one day save your life!
    
    	On the other -
    
    	   No one *ever* deserves to be hit across the face, *no matter what*
           they do. Therefore, there is no justification for him doing that
           to you - you cannot be at fault or responsible, in any way, shape 
    	   or form.
    
    	On one hand - 
    
    	   A definition of "insanity" is doing the same thing and expecting
           different results. Therefore, if something doesnt change or become
           different on your part, you will be hit again. If you're willing
           to wait for *him* to change - for whatever reason - you stand to
           wait a very long time, while being in a very dangerous situation.
    
    	And on the other -
    	
    	   *He* doesnt have to be different - BUT, you dont have to be with
    	   him either. Let him go - he'll either find someone else to beat,
           or perhaps his pain will get bad enough as a result, that he'll
    	   do something about his problems.
    
    	Hope this helps,
    
    	Joe
69.12EVMS::KRIVERSDesperadoThu Apr 21 1994 14:2032
    Your husband probably *is* sorry when he says he is, but the fact that
    this just keeps repeating itself says that he's not sorry enough not to
    do it again.  You want to help him, help yourself first.  You're not
    going to be very helpful in a hospital bed, or worse, in a morgue. 
    Remember all those things you read in papers and see in TV about the
    same sorts of things and think, "How can those women DO that?" and the
    incidents seem so removed because they're happening to Someone Else? 
    Well, it's happening to you.  
    
    Not to sound scary, but if what you've presented are facts, it IS
    happening to you.  Go away, get safe and if your husband really wants
    to change, he'll go get appropriate help for himself.  Or he won't,
    justifying it all he wants.  That's, to be blunt, not your problem. 
    Your problem is protecting YOU before something that's Bad gets Worse.  
    
    You certainly may love him, and he may certainly love you, but
    nevermind all the romantic notions in the world -- saying I'm sorry
    doesn't validate hitting you.  And you shouldn't HAVE to endure a
    relationship where you can't speak up for fear of being hit, can't do
    this for fear of pissing him off.  That's not a relationship, that's a
    prison.
    
    I agree with a couple notes back, you do sound like you really do KNOW
    what's going on it wrong and what you should do, you're just torn about
    doing it.  We can't make you do the right thing, but try to take heed
    that about ever reply in this note has said "Get out"....
    
    Good luck to you,
    
    kim
    
    
69.13 :-( MIMS::ROBINSON_BThu Apr 21 1994 14:3018
    
    
       Although I would not recommend it, if you are determined to stay
    with your husband, it would be a good idea to get away from him for a
    little while at least. Let him see what it would be like without you.
    That might help him realize his true feelings for you. 
       Just remember, if he has another one of his outbreaks, it could end
    up much worse. You will be taking responsibility if something happens
    to you since you stayed voluntarily. I am not trying to be cold but I
    have been around violent people before and they never seem to really
    change, although they might change for a little while.
       Make sure your husband realizes that you ARE capable of leaving him
    if he cannot change. If he thinks you wont leave anyway, why would he
    go to all the trouble of trying to change.
       Keep your chin up. We are all pulling for you.
    
    
                                                *B*
69.14Reply from anonymous author of base noteQUARK::MODERATORThu Apr 21 1994 14:4750
    Thanks Heather for your reply,
                  
    I know finances etc., can be dealt with through a lawyer, but I 
    received Legal Aid for my last divorce and through pressure from  my
    husband did not keep up payments and now it has been  cancelled.  I'm
    unlikely to obtain it again for another divorce  or to sort out
    finances again and I simply cannot afford to pay  for it myself as our
    current outgoings are very large and I still  have debt from my
    previous marriage.
                  
    I managed to find a few violence notes in Womannotes-V4 (I had  only
    checked V5 before) and there was a checklist for determining  if you
    are being controlled/abused in note 398.0.  I felt sick to  the gut
    when I realised that 9 of the 13 pointers applied to me.
                  
    Today I have had the "are you alright?" at least 10 times, "do  you
    still love me?" 4 or 5 times and "I feel as much in love as I  did when
    I met you, and just as happy" and I got a stupid note  saying how
    things will be different from now.
                  
    I made him tell his Mum when he first grabbed my face 3 days  after we
    got married and tried to remove my nose.  She was  obviously very
    upset, seemed genuinely shocked and stated most  definately that he "is
    just not like that", "it's not in his  nature" evidently it is.
                  
    I feel so sick and shaky I can't bear this.  I feel sick at the 
    thought of going home soon.  He's phoned 5 times this afternoon,  he
    knows I'm verging on finishing our marriage.
                  
    I need something to spur me, to give me strength.  I really feel  as
    though I'm waiting for the punch, then people can see a black  eye or
    broken nose, including the police.  They can't see a  headache.  I feel
    as though I need some hard justification.  It  took me 4 years to leave
    my ex-husband, I finally found the  strength to free myself to go and
    find someone who was hygienic,  affectionate, willing to work, that
    truly love and cared for me  ...... look what happened, I'm such an
    idiot.
                  
    To complicate matters once again and make me feel even more  guilty he
    has the beginnings of diabetes and a blocked bowel,  mind you his
    mother gave birth to him so she can help him,  right?????
                  
    I am so confused ..... I keep hoping and thinking that it just  could
    get better, we get on so well generally.
                  
    Please feel free to be as blunt and straight to the point as you  want
    to be, I like the facts straight and direct as they have  been.
                  
    You are all helping me, it's just taking time.
    
69.15 :-( MIMS::ROBINSON_BThu Apr 21 1994 15:0412
    
    
       You are not an idiot. Its not your fault, its his. He was the one
    who pretended to be something he is not. You are not a mind reader, how
    were you supposed to know that this was going to happen?
       Dont let his condidtion sway your decision. If you were not there he
    would still be going through the diabetes thing . As for the blocked
    bowel, I think it was blocked him up all the way to his brain.
    
    
    
                                                *B*
69.16NASENG::HEATHERmist illusion rips awayThu Apr 21 1994 15:1932
    Anon,
      As the last noter said *you* are *not* - I repeat *not* an idiot.
    Please be *very* careful just now about tearing yourself down.  IT
    won't help, and you need all the strength and faith in yourself
    you can muster.  And remember, you were strong enough to do this
    before, you *can* do it again.
    
      As for finances - they *can* be worked, you may need to get creative.
    Look into annulment, and see if that changes anything - get in touch
    with a woman's shelter and see what kinds of advise they can give you
    (hint, at least it'll be free...).  Think of what friends and family
    you have that might be willing to give you a hand short term, or
    float you a loan you can pay back over time.  Examine every option
    you can think of....and then a couple more.
    
      Heavens, your words sound so much like mine....I remember saying,
    "I wish he'd just hit me", so I would have something to point at when
    people asked me why.  *Because you are being abused and are miserable
    is why* - and that's *enough*!!  You don't need to justify to anyone.
    All you need to do is what's best for you - and it sounds like that
    is getting out now.
    
      His health problems are his problems - you can sympathize, you
    can't make him better, and you are not responsible for him.
    
      You dread going home.....how I remember how that felt....don't let
    it go on, your self-esteem will go in the toilet, and your energy
    levels and strength will go with it.  Take care of *you*.....*NOW*.
    
    
    bright blessings,
    -HA
69.17exASDG::CALLThu Apr 21 1994 15:3948
    I kind of knew you would rationalize 'and' internalize all this. I
    can tell by the way you say I feel sick and I have a headache. From
    now on as the cycle develops you will 'know' two to three days in
    advance 'when' you are going to 'get' it again. There is 'nothing' you
    can do to 'prevent' it. You can have the house perfectly clean. You can
    have your make-up on perfectly. You can have the best dinner on cooking
    and you will 'still' get it. If you think you are sick now you will get
    sicker and sicker.
    
    I can tell you that this is not a 'happy', 'healthly' relationship.
    You cannot get a 'happy, healthly' relationship from a 'sick' one.
    
    Money is not the issue here...you say it is but the money of it is only
    going to get worse and worse. The pressure is going to get worse and
    worse. The isolation is going to get worse...no friends...no family.
    You will be expected not to tell. If his mother and us are the only
    ones you told you are already on this path. Blood is thicker than water
    and his mother is 'not' there for you.
    
    My advice to you is to begin to set aside $$$ that you 'do not' tell
    him about. Set up at least an escape plan so that if you have to run
    for your life you can at least 'survive'. Yes this 'could' get into
    survival mode for you. At this time the money of it will have 'no'
    meaning to you what-so-ever. Also please see a counseler
    so you can at least have someone to help you sort all this out.
    I think you should know that they have a tenency to 'trap' you so you
    can't get out. Don't let yourself be trapped and caged.
    
    Also seek out books so you can at least learn more...
    
    The healthy thing is going by your intutuion. 
    If it makes you sad, depressed, angry...you have
    made the wrong choice. Perhaps you should have taken the time to be
    completely free from your last marriage 'before' jumping into the fire.
    If you decide to stay...there isn't anything anyone can say or do.
    
    I will help and support you if you decide to leave...if you stay
    there's nothing from anyone...only pity...
    
    I didn't want to end my marriage either. I used to thank God everyday
    that I got out. I have put all this behind me now as it seems like
    another lifetime ago.
    
    Parting words...don't accept less...be the best you can be.
    
    
    I wish the 'very' best for you in life. I bless you....
    
69.18Reply from anonymous author of base noteQUARK::MODERATORThu Apr 21 1994 16:0226
    Thank again for your replies.  Would anyone advise him leaving  and me
    staying in the house?
                  
    I'm loathed to give up another house after giving my last one to  my
    ex-husband, if we do split.  I just couldn't face living with  a friend
    again, I couldn't go to my parents as they argue  constantly (I think
    that's why I married young to my first  husband, so that I could get
    out).  I have thought of getting a  job far away from here, but I get
    NO free time to myself, I'm  see a friend once on my own in the last
    year, he always finds a  reason for me not going. He split with his
    ex-fiancee a few days before their wedding,  which I feel he was
    justified in doing as she had been cheating  on him, and as revenge for
    her behaviour he has scratched her car  with a key, called her and told
    her what he thinks of her, sent  her a nasty letter and thumped her
    current boyfriend (and  supposedly her 'lover' when they were engaged). 
    What might I be  in for?  He says he would never give me a divorce, his
    dad  certainly made his mum wait the 5 years before he had no say in 
    it.
                  
    I feel as though I'm being punished for all of the hurt he has  felt
    since he was little.  If he could rid the hurt and anger  would he get
    better?
                  
    I'm frightened of what he might do to me and perhaps even my  friends
    and family.
    
69.19NASENG::HEATHERmist illusion rips awayThu Apr 21 1994 16:1540
    This story gets worse and worse.....little by little the fear
    and terror creeps out.  You are terrified.  That should tell
    you a lot.
    
    Sure, stay in the house and have him leave if you think it can
    be done....then *change the locks* the *minute* he is away.  Don't
    let him back in unless someone is with you, and only if there are
    things he needs.  Suggest he go to counselling as a condition of
    return, and meet with his counsellor before ever letting him
    return.
    
    How long have you been married?  If it's not long, consider
    looking into an annulment - he doesn't have to agree from what
    I understand (although I could be wrong) - If you go to court
    over abusive treatment, he doesn't have to agree to divorce
    you for you to get one.  Look into all aspects.
    
    You say you could bear to live with friends again - yes, you can
    bear it - if the alternative is to live in terror or worse, be
    badly hurt/beaten - you *can* bear it.  
    
    You say you can't bear to give/up lose another house....you can.
    I left 2 gorgeous houses when I divorced, one was on 7 acres,
    couldn't see the neighbors, wonderful woods in the back, lilacs,
    roses, galds, wildflowers - house had a hot tub in a greenhouse
    with catherdral ceilings, bedroom had cathedral ceilings and a
    loft area - gorgeous.  Vacation home on a quiet lake, again, no
    neighbors you could see, great view of the lake, and peaceful and
    beautiful most of the year - I didn't think I could bear to leave
    those either.....I did - I decided my sanity and happiness were
    worth more - you can do it too.
    
    Trust your instincts - send me mail or call me at dtn 381-6186 
    if you'd like to talk more.
    
    Protect yourself - however that works best - and take care of *you*!
    
    
    bright blessings,
    -HA
69.20TODAYMKOTS3::LENNONThu Apr 21 1994 16:3521
    When things looked particularly bad for me and my life was just falling
    apart all around me, the way that I got through it all was by taking it
    "One Day at a Time" sometimes it was one hour at a time.
    
    Try not to think or worry about the future, it will take care of
    itself.
    
    The past has already happened, forget it.
    
    What are you going to do TODAY, this hour, to make your LIFE better???
    
    Anything at all will do.  It can be as simple as taking a walk or a
    bubble bath or as complicated and difficult as getting a restraining
    order.
    
    Try praying for help and LISTEN to what you hear back.  Trust your gut
    and do the right thing, for you.
    
    Love,
    
    Julia 
69.21SSDEVO::DELMONICOM_DelMonico "440's are forever"Thu Apr 21 1994 16:4928

   IMHO you need to get out of this relationship. I have never condoned

   or will I ever condone one spouse hitting another spouse. My wife and

   I have had some friends that went through this abuse and the best thing

   they did was walk away and end it. No one deserves this type of treatment

   no matter what type of person they are.


   Trust you brain and not your heart in this matter before you end up with

   serious injuries.


   My prayers go out to you,

   Mike D

   p.s. Married for 24 years to the same person and neither of us has ever

        hit the other.


   
69.22BIGQ::GARDNERjustme....jacquiThu Apr 21 1994 16:5936

    The biggest thing I am seeing in this issue is the fact that 
    you went from a childhood home to a marriage to another marriage.
    When did you have a chance to be YOU?  When all is said and done,
    you need to become YOU before becoming a part of a couple. 

    One other issue is the issue of SECRECY!  If you can take the 
    big step of replying here and talking openly about it, you will
    have taken a BIG step in gaining control of yourself and your
    life.  Taking back power and control of yourself is in your 
    grasp.  IF your husband works at Digital, go to Personnel, Security,
    your manager to protect your job and yourself in the workplace.
    Learn to modify your behavior to be able to gently put the phone
    back into the receiver (HANG UP) when your husband calls and acts
    abusive during the work hours.  Learn to not feel guilty for doing	
    this.  This takes practice.  Reclaiming yourself is a long, arduous
    task.  Many have gone before you.  

    If you reside outside the USA, let us know.  A lot of resources 
    might not be the same for your country.  

    LISTEN TO YOUR INNER INSTINCTS!  YOUR GUT REACTION IS THERE FOR A
    PURPOSE.  IT WILL ACTIVATE THE FIGHT OR FLIGHT MECHANISM.  

    Direct deposit to a DCU account in your name only is possible.  Or,
    switching to a live check and setting up your own account is possible.
    
    Deciding to go or stay is YOUR choice.  An informed choice needs 
    the feedback of a trained counselor with you being there ALONE with
    the professional.  A woman's support group might be the next step.

    Take care and make sure your birth control is firmly in place!

    justme....jacqui
    
69.23be carefulMR4DEC::MAHONEYThu Apr 21 1994 17:2021
    Please leave... don't let yourself be trapped, it will happen again, he
    will get mad again, he will hit you again... and again. He has to deal
    with his problem, you have to deal WITH YOUR LIFE! please do not be
    another statistic or another "number" in the morge... another battered
    spouse death... there are too  many already, be wise, GET OUT OF HIS
    LIFE while you are alive, don't wait...
    
    I believe that in your condition you could get an annulment, as he
    hid from you his behavior, I don't know how long you have been
    married, but with your record "three days after marriage" of being hit
    I don't think I would myself have a "fourth day" of married life.  You
    cannot change another person, but you can make yourself be respected.
    There is NO EXCUSE for hitting.  Save yourself, allow time to heal, to
    forget, to be at peace... your most important job is to TAKE CARE OF
    YOURSELF.  Please do. You are quite worth it.
    
    and let him take care of himself... by himself! whenever he is ready,
    if he ever is ready, but that should not be your concern.
    
    My heart goes to you...  be strong, and Gobd bless!
    Ana
69.24ELESYS::JASNIEWSKIWhy not ask why?Thu Apr 21 1994 17:4690
    
	Re - anon.

    >Please feel free to be as blunt and straight to the point as you  want
    >to be, I like the facts straight and direct as they have  been.

	That being said,

    >I need something to spur me, to give me strength.  I really feel  as
    >though I'm waiting for the punch, then people can see a black  eye or
    >broken nose, including the police.  They can't see a  headache.  I feel
    >as though I need some hard justification.  

	Again, watch that place where you're conspiring with him to cause
    physical abuse to another human being! There is *no one*, including you,
    who needs to suffer through "a black eye" or a "broken nose" - for any
    reason - including being able to justify a choice of action.
      
    >I couldn't go to my parents as they argue  constantly (I think
    >that's why I married young to my first  husband, so that I could get
    >out).  

	*I* think therein lies the difficulty in "getting out" of this 
    relationship; there's a certain attraction it holds for you, in the
    arguments you say your "persistant back chat" sets off. If you really
    left him, I imagine it'd get pretty uncomfortable for you in time; who 
    could you spar and volley with? With whom could you recreate those familiar 
     "at-home" surroundings?

	Not to confuse you, but to say that you're not the first person
    to leave home in order to get away from some unpleasant aspect of the
    household - only to land themselves (Gee? - How did that happen?) in
    virtually the same situation - only with different players. 

    >I feel as though I'm being punished for all of the hurt he has  felt
    >since he was little.  If he could rid the hurt and anger  would he get
    >better?

	That's probably completely accurate. Is it worth dissapating all his
    negative energy in your flesh and bones - so that you can keep trying to 
    work out the hurt and anger *you've* gotten since you were little? No way! 

	There's much better ways to do that than to submit to physical 
    battery. It wouldnt work out anyway because your hurt and anger is not
    necessarily an issue with him, *as his is most certainly not with you*. 
	
	What's certain is the futility in him trying to resolve whatever 
    feelings he's accumulated since childhood - through beating you! Mostly 
    because *you're not the person* he has those issues with - that's "Mom" or 
    "Sister" or "Dad" or "Older Brother" or...who knows.

	Likewise, just given that your parents "argue constantly" (and assuming
    they've always been that way) that's a very painful situation for a kid
    to grow up in. I should know - mine had "the battle without end"! Dad 
    remarried when my Mom died and guess what? "The_battle_without_end" again!

    	What would your guess be as to a behavior that *I'd* be predisposed to 
    in a relationship? It's taken a lot of work on my part to not reinact the 
    battle without end in my marriage - because on some level, that's what 
    feels right - even through I *hate it* most times. 

	There came a point where I decided that I hated it much more than it
    feeling right on some level was worth and I changed myself. To this day I 
    can "slip" back into all of that, but most often I can catch myself before 
    that happens. I do this successfully by maintaining a constant level of 
    understanding and awareness around what the hell it is I'm trying to do, 
    who really owns the issue and why it feels the way it feels when I 
    recreate that space with my wife.

	That experience of mine is for you - rather than to be used to 
    enlighten your husband. You mentioned he believes he desperately needs
    your help...Possibly because on some level he recognizes that you offer
    him the perfect opportunity to open to the rage that's inside him, more
    appropriately directed at whomever it really belongs to, but somehow
    convienently directed at you. You just happen to "set him off" with what
    you present him in your own familiarity - they call that "A relationship 
    made in heaven". 

	So what's really happening on top of you being beaten is that you're 
    being *used* - you're actually a *convienence* for him. You make it easy 
    for him to blow off his steam, he gets to knock you around some - without 
    even having to face down the real issue nor the real person he has it with!
     
	Some portion of his tears, apologies and flowers are so he can keep 
    this "great deal" he has for himself going with you - because it takes
    much more guts and courage to face the truth, than it does to abuse 
    someone.

	Joe
    
69.25get outTARKIN::BREWERThu Apr 21 1994 18:2322
    
    	I have a very close freind who is a corrections officer in 
    	a state prison. 1/3 or so of the inmates are in for
    	murder. Many of them of their spouses. She was talking the other
    	night to a friend of ours who's spouse "slapped the sh*t" out
    	of her the other night for the first time. And he was so sorry
    	after wards. Our mutual friend was saying that she really
    	loves him and it was just this time and it wasn't that bad.
    	My C.O. friend took a really hard line with her about how
    	many of the inmates she talks to that talk about how they
    	just started "getting rough" with their wife..then a slap
    	here or there...then a beating...then...
    	It doesn't stop unless they get help. But, that's HIS job.
    	NOT yours. Your job is to take care of you..your LIFE. 
    	Protect yourself. It will not spontaneously stop on it's
    	own. It's about power and control and rage. It's NOT about
    	YOU. 
    
    	Get out.
    
    	Peace
    	dotty
69.26a phone call awayASDG::CALLThu Apr 21 1994 18:2741
    You have every right to be afraid of what this man might do...he has
    threatened and will probably carry out some of his threats. He will do
    that to maintain 'control'. That is why I'm telling you that your life
    will go on the line. Maybe not today maybe not tomorrow. A lifetime
    with this person? Isolated? Alone? NO HELP anywhere. The longer you are
    in the less options you are going to find for your self.
    
    Today I AM SAFE. I Do not live under threats or in fear. I own my own
    home. I pay my own bills and I don't have to accept anything that's
    unhealthy. I've traveled a very long road to get here. Probably cried
    enough tears to sink the queen mary. Let me tell you it's worth all the
    pain and all the tears.
    
    You are not alone. Other women have gone before you. They got out and
    so can you. You 'do not' have to live like this. I repeat...you 'do
    not' have to live like this. They have passed laws now. The police will
    pick him up and he can go to jail for disobeying a restraining order.
    Better to withstand a little harrasment now or a little car scrathing
    or a nastygram then what you 'will' get later. My husband threatened to
    burn the house down...he took a tire iron to my car and beat the whole
    thing up. (with me and my kids in it) I called the police many times to 
    come. He is no longer in a position to hurt me. The last time he threatned 
    me I just took the steps to counteract him. If he calls and says anything 
    that's insulting I just hang up. (I have children by him).
    
    Please call the Battered Women's Coalition. You can get the number by
    calling 411 and asking for it. You can return to your home when you
    feel it's safe to do so. They 'will' help you work through all your
    issues. There are thousands of women working and sending in donations
    so that women like you can safely get out. I'm not sure how much
    financial or legals they will help with but I'm sure they have programs
    in place. Just see if it's an option for you.
    
    Call and ask for Caroline Ramsay. She's the director. Tell her you work
    for Digital and that I sent you. She will give you the expert advice.
    She has put her lifes work into helping women like you. Please call...it
    can't hurt.  Call Dina Duffy 223-4442 and ask her about the Jane Doe
    safety fund and how to get in touch with Caroline.
    
    I wouldn't worry about the house right now. Worry about the big things
    right now and let the petty things go. 
69.27USCTR1::WOOLNERYour dinner is in the supermarketThu Apr 21 1994 18:5228
    Remember that we don't think you're dumb.  We don't think you're
    foolish, or any of those things you've called yourself in your replies
    to us.  You're *smart* and *healthy* to be reaching out for help.
    
    The task in front of you must seem overwhelming, but as someone
    mentioned, right now you just have to deal with *today*.  Actually you
    only have to deal with the first task on today's list (make a call to a
    battered women's shelter?).  Then you'll have that under your belt,
    have just a smidgeon more self-esteem (revel in it!), and you can move
    on to doing just the *next* task on the list.
    
    Thanks for being so straight with us, for having the guts to tell us
    how afraid you are, for being able to "take it" when we shoot from the
    hip.  I remember anonymous noters who seemed to be in the same type of
    trouble and who checked in only rarely, then disappeared from the
    notesfile... we can only hope they're safe now.
    
    It's OK that you're young.  It's OK that you had a first marriage that
    didn't work out, and it's OK that you married again; it's OK that you
    remarried maybe a little too soon (to sort out who *you* are).  It's
    NOT OK that your husband hid his violent nature, NOT OK that he hits
    you, and NOT OK if you blame yourself even one tiny bit for his
    problem.  Once you are safe, physically removed from him, it's OK to
    wish him well in his recovery - but as others have pointed out, it's
    HIS recovery and he's the only one who can do it.
    
    Best wishes,
    Leslie
69.28BIGQ::GARDNERjustme....jacquiThu Apr 21 1994 19:0411

    Decide for YOURSELF what YOU want to do and when YOU want to do it!
    THAT is the first step in taking back the power and control for 
    YOURSELF.

    Do what you need to do to keep safety foremost in your life.  Whether
    it means to stay or to go or inbetweeen.

    justme....jacqui

69.29good luck...EMASS::RAGUCCIThu Apr 21 1994 20:104
    that is all good advice
    	now it is up to you...good luck..don't do it alone..
    	get all the friends & family u can   !
    					Bob
69.30Voice of experienceCTOAVX::RIVARDBThu Apr 21 1994 20:3830
      I've been there. It never gets better. Everyone has given you GOOD
    advice. There were no laws to help me 26 years ago. I had my head
    banged into a brick wall until my ear was bleeding. This was the first
    time, and he was SOOOO sorry afterwards. Then I married him. I was very
    young and insecure. One morning he took our 6 month old son out of my
    arms, put him in his playpen, told the neighbor I had been talking to 
    at the backdoor that if anyone called the cops they'd never see me
    again, closed the door and slapped me in the face from one end of the
    house to the other. Summertime. All the windows open, people every-
    where. I screamed as loud and long as I could. No one did anything.
    One night he (at 195 lbs., 6' tall) picked me up (5'2", 105 lbs) by
    my waist and the neck of my shirt and threw me across a room, through
    the air. I hit a bureau and fell on the floor. That's when he started
    kicking me. I couldn't even get up. All I could do was keep my hands 
    over my face. Bruises on my back as big as the palm of my hand. 
      I got a divorce but things were better between us so I kept seeing
    him. HE was in control. He was manipulative. I had left him before
    and he always seemed to be able to make me come back. After about two
    years he tried to hit me over the head with a 2x4. I moved and it came
    down on the back of the loveseat. The 2x4 cracked. It could have been
    my head. Since then he's had 6 or 7 girlfriends and beaten every one of
    them. My point is -- they VERY SELDOM stop. Get out now while you can.
      The longer you stay the harder it gets. Sorry for going on like this
    but I wanted you to know what you could be in for. When I read your 
    note my stomach just knotted up. I can't even watch movies like "The
    Burning Bed". I get too upset. Please take everyone's advice. YOU are
    your main priority.
    
    b.r.
      
69.31QUARK::MODERATORFri Apr 22 1994 00:3276
    The following entry has been contributed by a member of our community
    who wishes to remain anonymous.  If you wish to contact the author by
    mail, please send your message to QUARK::MODERATOR, specifying the
    conference name and note number. Your message will be forwarded with
    your name attached  unless you request otherwise.

				Steve





    I will try not to give you advice, merely relate my tale and leave you
    to draw  your own conclusions.

    Not long after we first married, my husband started to hit me..not
    hard, just a  slap here and there, usually whilst we were mid-argument. 
    I was emotionally  hurt and did not tell anyone, did nothing about it. 
    I loved him and hoped the  situation would improve.  It didn't, it got
    worse, but each time he was sorry.   I threatened to leave.  The
    situation improved for a couple of years. 

    Over time, my trust in him was re-built and I believed that *finally*
    his  violence had been overcome and we could be happy.  Then, he was
    put under some  pressure at work began to verbally bash me for no
    reason.  I accepted that,  everyone loses their temper from time to
    time, right?  I truly believed it was  just his way of releasing
    tension.  Sometimes when this happened, I would react  and shout at
    him, he would grab my arms and squeeze them - it really hurt.  I  was
    scared, but loved this man, and hoped it would get better.

    The pressure at his work subsided, and things got better.  I fell
    pregnant, and  we were happy for a while.  It was a difficult pregnancy
    and there were rows,  but he never laid a finger on me.  Things were
    improving!  We had a beautiful  child. Not long after my return to
    work, my husband came under pressure at his  work..and things worsened,
    the pushing and grabbing started.  He lost his job.   The pushing and
    grabbing worsened.  I was tempted to leave, but could not in my  heart
    do that to him at such a time.  I loved him, things would get better.

    A new job opportunity arose, which he took and said he was happy with. 
    The  nature of his new work meant that he was often home late,
    sometimes he would be  in a real sombre mood.  At those times, he would
    pick holes in anything and  everything I tried to do..until, after many
    days I would loose my temper.  He  began to grab me and push me against
    the walls..or pin me against the furniture.   This continued until one
    day he took a kitchen knife and threatened me with it.   I was REALLY
    frightened.  I told him I was leaving.  At that he told me I was 
    incapable of bringing up a child on my own ("a bad mother") and could
    not  support us on my salary, furthermore that should I take his child,
    he would seek  me out and "get" me and my family.  My love was
    diminishing, but I was scared to  leave. I told one person what had
    happened.

    Another job change and an improvement.  I was under threat of
    redundancy, and  this caused the grabbing, pushing, pinning to start
    again...only this time, if I  managed to break free, he would bar my
    exit from the room.  I was not made  redundant, but my love continued
    to diminish.  I told someone else what had  happened.

    More problems with his work, and off we went again..until one day, he
    pinned me  in one room and grabbed me round the throat and started to
    squeeze.  I think he  must have come to his senses when our then VERY
    mobile and vocal child entered  the next room, as he let go.  My love
    for him was gone.  Four people now knew  the situation I was in.  I
    told him if anything like that EVER happened again, I  would leave.  I
    began to put my life in order.

    This is longer than I expected, so I'll try to cut it short!   Things
    continued  in this way.  We are now in out 9th year of marriage and
    shortly will be  separating.   My moods vary from happy to sad,
    sometimes I think I was foolish  to stay so long.  Who knows what the
    future will hold - but I do know this is  the right choice for my child
    and I.  

    Whatever you decide to do, I wish you all the happiness in the world.
69.32Make a decision and create a planMR4DEC::JONESSat Apr 23 1994 00:40144
    I believe we all want to help you and have agreed on what we
    would do...basically get apart.  What we have not really done, mainly
    because you are still collecting facts and reenforcing our resolve
    not to change our recommendations, is help you build a foundation
    on what to do after you decide to make a move.  Many of the noters
    have referenced the fact that their lives took a positive turn for
    the better, maybe over years, but it is better.  That could be
    you.  What you have to prepare for, however is change...lots of
    it.  It is a scary and unchartered, for you, road.  It will be
    difficult and you will need help, every day for a while, to get
    through it, but you and only you can decide whether you want to
    make that first step.
    
    There are, as you can see, a lot of us here that will be here...as
    long as you will...to listen, talk, offer our experience and love
    as you take those steps.  Some of us have been through some
    deep waters and, if nothing else, when you need non-licensed, but
    sincere help/counsel, we will try.
    
    As I have listened, I thought I would toss in a couple of thoughts
    that have helped me through some "stuff" recently that has 
    changed my life forever and focused my attention towards what
    I had to do rather than what was easy, or what my first inclination
    would have been.
    
    I read the following in a book that I dicovered by accident, which has
    been really helpful to me in times of questioning what to do next.
    First one, is from what the philosopher Epicteus pointed out
    over 19 centries ago, namely, we reap what we sow and that somehow
    fate almost always makes us pay for our malefactions.  "In the long 
    run," said Epictetus, "every man will pay the penalty for his own
    misdeeds.  The man who remembers it will be angry with no one,
    indignant with no one, revile no one, blame no one, offend no one,
    hate no one."  I some way, I think this fits both of you.  However,
    you are here, with us, safe in sharing and capable of changing what you
    are about to do(sow) for the rest of your life.  The fruit of what you
    do now will not be reaped for months or years, but if you don't start
    now, how can you hope to change what and who you are.  Joe pointed out
    that he has been through this and worked real hard to change.  You said
    that you came from a bad situation to another and yet another.  If you
    start now and practice getting into a situation where you don't run to
    the next person that you have not carefully and extensively checked
    out, you may be lured by yet another person with the qualities to hide
    what they are and will become.
    
    On his part, he sounds like he needs to do some reaping...by himself of
    solitude, reflection, horror at what he has become and IS.  It may not
    come, ever, if he doesn't get ahold of some professional help, but the
    most important decision you have to make now, is to ensure he makes
    that realization by himself, apart from you.
    
    The second thing I will point out is from the same book has to do with
    what you should do once you have come to grips with the fact that you
    are going to choose to change.
    Rule 1.  Get and document facts.  By this, I mean write down and save
    in a safe place....even in a misnamed file at work, what happens that
    is significant in your life.  What you have relayed to us is certainly
    something to put in that file.  Document the dates and facts.  You may
    never read them again, but, you may.  Consider the facts that have been
    presented here by those who have gone through things the most similar
    to your situation.
    
    Rule 2. After carefully considering the facts over a few times...even
    with a professional, priest, or some objective people(like us), come
    to a decision.
    
    Rule 3.  Once you have made a decision, get busy writing a plan and
    focus on getting on with the plan...act.  Dismiss all the anxiety
    associated with any steps you are about to take.  Anxiety will be
    normal because you are changing and doing something different. 
    Consider anything new you have ever done, regardless of whether it was
    fun or not, all of those things had anxiety associated with them too,
    so it is only normal.  
    
    Rule 4. Execute the plan, tell or find a few trusted colleauges that
    you can share the plan with and ask for their help in being your
    spoinsor to check in on you occasionally...better if they are not
    originally family type, in your case.  If you are tempted to worry
    about a problem that arrises, write out and answer the following
    questions:
     a. What is the problem
     b. What is the cause of the problem or reason for worry
     c. What are all the possible solutions
     d. What is the best solution
     e. Choose that one and act on it.
    
    ...most of all remember, the first part, you will reap what you sow.
            From "How to Stop Worrying and Start Living" by Dale
    Carnegie....in most library book shelves
    
    ...now to your decision.  Most people have said to just leave, or ask
    him to leave.  I take a slightly different view.  If you make that
    decision, you need a plan.  Part of that plan has been suggested. 
    First, you have to evaluate, or ask a professional to help you
    evaluate, given the facts, whether it is safe to announce your
    departure and whereabouts, or to ask him to leave.  Violent behaviour
    only needs to be severe once to permanently change your looks, your 
    speech, and your life forever.  You must do your best to predict, this
    once, what he will do.  If you determine it can be managed with a court
    order(which I wonder about, given his persistence in calling you 5
    times at work), then use that route.  If you think he will stalk you or
    come to the house all the time or at odd hours, changing locks is
    little comfort.   You also have to determine what will cause him to
    react. Will it be loss of face to the neighbors and his family and
    friends...i.e. his Mum...if his wife were to either throw him out
    or leave.....for some, having the possession of a wife/thing, is
    more important than the person.  If this is important, then you have to
    orchestrate your exit.  I think I could go on and on here, but you
    get the general drift.  The last thing you want is an opportunity to
    get fooled into seeing him again.  We have all tried to convince you
    that, as far as you and he are concerned, if you make the decision to 
    make a break, then stick to it.  He has created a pattern for the two
    of you that will not change in a week, a month or a year.  You need to
    worry about you.
    
    Now, to you.  If you make a decision to make the break, plan on 
    taking time, a lot of time for you.  Focus on at least a couple of
    years to get to where you want to be....reap...a positive and new
    self esteem and wonderful you.  You have a lot to work through with
    where you came from, this current situation and where you want to get
    to. That will take time, but can't start until you are by yourself and
    don't have the chance to regress with his help.  That is easy and
    unhealthy.  We are here(at least for now), but we are not the only ones
    to care.  We are safe, but you have to find others that can be trusted
    to just give you unquestioned support, hugs, listening ears, and
    objective counsel.  It isn't easy, but I would bet every one of us 
    would tell you that with time, support and focus, you can detach
    from where you are, build a new future and realize, after some period
    of time, that the new you has been built on establishing new patterns
    of life, carefully selecting the people you associate with so, if you
    do find someone you want to spend time with emotionally again, they
    will have already been through a filter that is complimentary to you,
    supportive of your standards, and can be trusted.
    
    I know you have a lot to think about, but not making a decision is
    making the wrong decision.  In your case status quo is getting more
    unacceptable and supporting his behavior.  If you think you love him,
    the best thing you can do for him is let him live without you and have
    a chance to become a real human being for himself.  It seems pretty
    clear to us, that he cannot do that with you.
    
    Peace and safety 
    
    Jim 
69.33You need to be first here!!!CSC32::SCHIMPFSun Apr 24 1994 23:4218
    Hi,
    
    Just want to add my .02 worth;  Please don't take this personally
    but, the first time this ABUSE occured you were a victim.  If you
    choose to stay, and it occurs again your a volunteer.
    
    You need to take care of you first.  The Husbands problems
    are his...You can't fix his, because you are not attending to
    nor fixing your own.
    
    
    Please take care of yourself, and do what you have to do for you!
    
    God Bless you, and a politcally correct HUG!!!
    
    
    
    Jeff
69.34QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centMon Apr 25 1994 13:465
The anonymous author of the base note has asked me to hide her entries -
I have reluctantly done so.  She has promised me an "update" later in the
week for me to post here, which I will do.

				Steve
69.35Help is available!!ICS::DUFFYThu Apr 28 1994 20:3421
    
    There are many resources for you to turn to. 
    
    Digital EAP -DTN 223-4439
    Massachusetts Coalition of Battered Women Services Groups 617-248-0922 
    (I'm assuming you are in Mass. since I can't read your notes anymore)
    
    Call either of these numbers and they will give a list a resources in
    your area. 
    
    Also, 411 has a new service- any 411 operator can give you a list of
    Women's Shelters in your area. You do not need to know the name and
    location for a shelter. Just tell the operator that you are looking for
    #'s for some Battered Women's Shelters/Resource Groups in your area, and
    they will provide you with the information.
    
    PLEASE seek the help that is available to you!!! 
    
    Dina 
    
                                             
69.36QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centThu Apr 28 1994 20:4211
Re: .35

A comment - "411" rarely works anywhere anymore.  I assume you mean the
Directory Assistance" service which is 1-555-1212 (or 1-areacode-555-1212;
see your local phone directory).  This of course is useful only to people
in the US.

Another US resource is the listing of "Human Services" numbers which is 
generally found at the front of your local phone directory,

			Steve
69.37411ASDG::CALLThu Apr 28 1994 21:195
    re .36
    
    411 IS the number to call to get the listing. Now that you're aware
    you'll probably notice or hear about it. They are slowly getting this
    message out to women.
69.38QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centFri Apr 29 1994 00:555
    Seems unlikely to me, as the phone company has been phasing out 411
    for some 20 years now....  It probably still works in some areas,
    but not most places.
    
    					Steve
69.39ICS::DUFFYFri Apr 29 1994 12:5010
    Well, as far as I know 411 works in all of Massachusetts and Maine.
    
    And, like I said in my previous note, I'm not sure where the noter is
    located, because I can't read the notes becasue they are hidden.
    So, the information I included was for Massachusetts, where 411 IS
    directory assistance. I never claimed that 411 was directory assistance
    for all areas.
    
    
    Dina  
69.40USCTR1::WOOLNERYour dinner is in the supermarketFri Apr 29 1994 14:574
    My guess is that she's in the U.K.  Can anyone "across the pond" give
    pointers to support groups/shelters there?
    
    Leslie
69.41get safe, then work on it togetherBEGOOD::HEBERTdances with wordsFri Apr 29 1994 16:0330
    Basenoter, I know it must be tough hearing everyone tell you to 
    leave him.  You got married "for better, for worse, in sickness and in
    health, etc..."  I know a couple of people in your position, and they
    won't leave because they're afraid of what their families or their
    priest will say.  Like you, they're waiting for that black eye or broken 
    arm so they'll have an "excuse."
    
    I don't think anyone here is saying that you're supposed to take a 
    marriage commitment lightly.  And nobody is saying that you have to
    stop loving or caring about him.
    
    The message everyone seems to be pushing is that you need to be safe 
    before you can work on this problem.  Sadly, it sounds like you're not 
    safe being alone in that house with him.  Get out and *then* work on the
    relationship a couple times a week with a counselor.  You don't have to 
    throw away the past few years or months that you've built with this
    person.
    
    I've tried to reply to this note several times and keep deleting it
    because I get so frustated thinking about my friends who are also in this
    situation.  Basenoter, if things start getting better - please continue
    to get professional help/support!  If you follow the more typical
    pattern (like two of my friends), things will get better for a while, 
    you'll have a child, he'll eventually get violent again, and then we'll 
    see you in the other note: "why I'm staying in a bad marriage for my 
    children."
    
     good luck,
    
       -- Jeff
69.42UK ResourcesGALVIA::HELSOMDon't mind that, sir. It's only a slowworm.Sun May 01 1994 13:5029
Re: .40

In general, the position in the UK is broadly similar to that in the US.

There is a women's refuge network in the UK. See the phone book for local
contacts--try the useful numbers section at the front of the book, or under the
name of the town/city in the main listings. The directory enquiries operator
(192) should also be able to find the relevant number.) Women's refuges provide
a safe place and support while you sort out what to do next. They can also put
you in touch with other services and provide legal advice. 

Relate, the national marriage counselling service, offers counselling for
couples and individually, fees based on ability to pay. They are probably a good
bet if you do decide to leave and need help getting through the practical and
emotional effects.

Some UK police forces have domestic violence units where you can get legal
advice, pointers to counselling, and other services. Although some forces are
better than others, all are much better on domestic violence than they were a
few years ago, and a few are excellent. You can expect to be treated
sympathetically if you choose to bring a charge.

FWIW the UK police reckon that a formal warning is the best way to prevent a
repeat offence in domestic violence. If you are being beaten by your partner in
the UK, going to the police is certainly an option. Letting your partner know
that what he is doing is illegal and not endorsed by society could be one way to
make him consider what he is doing,

Helen 
69.43Reply fron anonymous author of base noteQUARK::MODERATORTue May 03 1994 13:4695
              
              Thank you to everyone again for their overwhelming response.  I 
              was going to leave it a few more weeks before entering an update 
              but I feel I should let you all know how I'm doing now.
              
              Basically things came to a head one night, when I got home from 
              work and told him what things I was unhappy about and what I 
              wanted to change.  As expected he got angry and started crying 
              and thumping around.  He calmed down a little and basically tried 
              to twist what I was saying around.  He said one of us had to 
              leave, that he was going, then he wasn't going that I was to 
              leave.  He then said if it was over that he wanted back my 
              wedding rings which I refused to do until after the request was 
              repeated 10 or 11 times when I gave in and handed them back.  He 
              erupted and got a knife from the kitchen and held it to his wrist 
              saying all sorts of rubbish.  He came over to me and dropped the 
              knife and then went upstairs into the bedroom.  Next thing I 
              heard sounded like he was having an epileptic fit (he isn't 
              epileptic) accompanied by loud wailing and crying.  I ran out of 
              the house and thinking he would chase after me, I ran into a 
              neighbours house.
              
              It took him around 3 hours to guess I was there, by this time I'd 
              had my Mum and best friend on the phone wondering what was going 
              on, so I told them all, including my neighbours.  It resulted in 
              him pleading with me to talk to him face to face (this was on the 
              phone as I refused to see him) I did not give in and he finally 
              accepted this and that I was not returning home until he had seen 
              a professional.  He left me in peace at my neighbours for the 
              rest of the night and the following day we went to see our GP, a 
              Psychiatric Nurse and a Psychotherapist.  The Psychiatric nurse 
              was most useful as he suggested listing rules in order to put 
              controls in place to avoid arguments going over the top in the 
              immediate future until he'd worked through his aggression with a 
              psychologist.
              
              We made this list over coffee and when I was satisfied I was safe 
              and that he knew I would leave for good if he so much as thumped 
              a piece of furniture again, I returned home.
              
              He hasn't lost his temper yet though I have provoked him to see 
              how he would deal with me.  He knows the score, he says he was 
              shocked into it.  He knows his behaviour was inexcusable, 
              unacceptable and frightening for me.  His Mum and Dad seem to 
              have alot to answer for, role models etc, though that does not 
              excuse him whatsoever.
              
              The control and manipulation issues will be worked through with 
              marriage guidance, though they are not as bad there is still a 
              hint of it there which I'm fighting all the way.
              
              I'm hoping this will be a success story, I'm hoping that the 
              pattern didn't have long enough to emerge so firmly that it 
              couldn't be broken.  
              
              I don't feel in any immediate danger, he knows that he must 
              control his anger by leaving the house to cool down.  He seems to 
              want to get rid of the rage, and I've told him that only he can 
              do it, if he doesn't he's lost me permanently.
              
              I know I'm taking a gamble, but it is what I have to do.  The 
              main thing it is out in the open, those closest to me 
              particularly know everything and are checking in with me every 
              other day.  He's getting help and hopefully the hypnosis will put 
              a block in his mind to stop him going too far at least until he 
              has learnt what is acceptable and what is not all over again.  
              The Psychy Nurse seemed to think that his parents subconsciously 
              taught him that lashing out was how you dealt with opposition 
              from your partner, and that it was OK.  Myself and the 
              professionals have made it quite clear that it is NOT, under any 
              circumstances.
              
              I have a problem in what to do about his mother - she kept 
              pestering my Mum on the phone the night I left (wonder where he 
              gets his persistent phone-calling from??) and apparently told her 
              all sorts of lies about me which my Mum immediately told me.  I 
              was horrified with what she said, along the lines of I was 
              hitting him all of the time (I haven't) that I was lazy around 
              the house and that he was never done complaining about me.  My 
              husband was ready to never speak to her again until the 
              Psychotherapist said he shouldn't condemn her.  He then called 
              her to say to leave him alone for a bit and he would phone her in 
              a few weeks - she agreed but then called him at work a few days 
              later.
              
              My personal feelings are that he should cut contact with her 
              until we are through this and he is strong enough to overcome the 
              emotional s**t she throws at him.  Others say this is wrong.  Any 
              advice?
              
              I would also appreciate comments on what I am doing - seen it all 
              before? No hope, lots of hope?
              
              And heaps of thanks and appreciation for everyone's concern, it 
              has made me ALOT stronger than I was.
69.44Good News!!!MKOTS3::LENNONTue May 03 1994 14:576
    Congratulations!!!!!
    
    You sound like a different person, much stronger and very sure of
    yourself.  Pat yourself on the back.  You've done a great job.
    
    Julia
69.45Good stuff!ELESYS::JASNIEWSKIWhy not ask why?Tue May 03 1994 16:3977
    
    	I'd like to second a congratulations. It sounds from what you've
    written as though things have gone in a definite positive direction
    for you and for him.
    
    >          He hasn't lost his temper yet though I have provoked him to see 
    >          how he would deal with me.  He knows the score, he says he was 
    >          shocked into it.  He knows his behaviour was inexcusable, 
    >          unacceptable and frightening for me.  His Mum and Dad seem to 
    >          have alot to answer for, role models etc, though that does not 
    >          excuse him whatsoever.
    
    	That's good to read, though be careful with prodding him to "test
    it" or whatever. Sometimes people like your husband really do want to
    change themselves; they just havent run into a situation in their life
    that's powerful enough to motivate that change. I hope with you he has.
    I know - I've had that experience.
    
    >          I don't feel in any immediate danger, he knows that he must 
    >          control his anger by leaving the house to cool down.  He seems to 
    >          want to get rid of the rage, and I've told him that only he can 
    >          do it, if he doesn't he's lost me permanently.
    
    	That's good - for *you*! Remember that you have the option to leave
    as well, go off for a drive or walk, go spend the night at a neighbors or
    a hotel if necessary; take care of yourself if he isnt able to take
    care of himself, so to speak.
    
    >          The Psychy Nurse seemed to think that his parents subconsciously 
    >          taught him that lashing out was how you dealt with opposition 
    >          from your partner, and that it was OK.  Myself and the 
    >          professionals have made it quite clear that it is NOT, under any 
    >          circumstances.
    
    	Good for you again! The nurse's perception just might be correct;
    what he does "feels right" to him on some level and he's going to have
    to learn how to recognize that in the context of it being *unacceptable*.
    
    >          I have a problem in what to do about his mother - she kept 
    >          pestering my Mum on the phone the night I left (wonder where he 
    >          gets his persistent phone-calling from??) and apparently told her 
    >          all sorts of lies about me which my Mum immediately told me.  I 
    
    	I think it's inate for Mums to defend their children; to feel
    "defensive" when some shortcoming of _their child_ is being raised as an
    issue. Also given that this has to do somewhat with how he was raised,
    it's a reflection on her; probably one that isnt particularly
    comfortable for her to sit with. I'm not sure that there's anything you
    can "do" besides explain your position to her as best you can - and let
    it go at that. In terms of what's best for you, what's best for him,
    and what's best for the relationship - in that order of course!
    
    >	      My personal feelings are that he should cut contact with her 
    >         until we are through this and he is strong enough to overcome the 
    >         emotional s**t she throws at him.  Others say this is wrong.  Any 
    >         advice?
    
    	My unqualified advice would be that your personal feelings are
    correct. It's well known that an alcoholic (for example) MUST first
    succeed in behavior-modifying their relationship to alcohol, before he
    or she can face further emotional difficulty - such as that which a
    new relationship could present. 
    
    	Likewise, your husband must first succeed in behavior-modifying his 
    relationship to physically lashing out at you, before being presented
    with further emotional difficulty. The easiest way to fail is by trying
    to take it all on, all at once. Show this idea and analogy to those who
    think otherwise.
    
    	I wish you the best in your effort!
    
    	Joe
    
    
    
    
    
69.46ASABET::J_TOMAOTue May 03 1994 17:064
    Sounds like your on the right track!
    
    (HUGS) of support for you,
    Joyce
69.47CFSCTC::ZOLLIpatience has her perfect workTue May 03 1994 17:5011
    
    Good for you!
    
    I am hoping the nurse or psychiatric people can put him in touch with a
    long-term treatment program (in the greater Boston area there's a
    terrific one called EMERGE) that can help him control his temper and
    outbursts over the long-term, creating a change in his behavior over
    time, and with support....
    
    -Jody
    
69.48ASDG::CALLTue May 03 1994 20:0020
    I'm not feeling sooo hopeful...I do understand that you have to try.
    At least you can say that you gave it your best shot. Nobody can blame
    you for that.
    
    Good luck to you
    
    ps...I think that you are just prolonging the agony.
    Did you even make any of those 'other' calls? They are information
    gathering sources so that you can take care of you. I see you did a
    good job of taking care of him. Please call....just to talk so you can
    get a better feel of all of this.
    
    again not what you want to hear
    
    (from one who's been down your path)
    
    I guess that it's going to have to get very painful for you to finally
    realize that you might have to make a change yourself. Keep in
    touch...don't hesitate to write back if you need our support in the
    future.
69.49Be firm, consistent and awareMR4DEC::JONESWed May 04 1994 02:3823
    Your commitment to affect change is terrific.  Keep that focus up.
    However, remember:
    -YOU need to change in the process...for the tougher and for the long
    haul to ensure you are safe and don't compromise yourself
    -Repetition and diligence is the key to his recovery/change, if it
    occurs.  Based on his mother's actions, his family of origin did
    nothing but encourage his behaviour and "learned" behaviour is not
    changed or substituted with different-hopefully better-behaviour
    overnight.
    -We are still here and want you to check in to make sure you are OK and
    also to know that we are thinking about how you are.  
    
    Keep up and accept the monitoring by others.  If he does not know about
    it, let him be aware that others are helping you through this change
    and even though it is not a threat to him, it will become another
    support and reenforcement for him to know you are never really as
    vulnerable as you might have once been.  He now has all the more reason
    to either come to grips with his "problem" and learn a new way of
    reacting, or leave this current situation and try elsewhere because
    collective YOU has more eyes, ears and backup.
    
    Be safe
    Jim
69.50Thanks goodness....GALVIA::HELSOMDon't mind that, sir. It's only a slowworm.Wed May 04 1994 12:4024
Let me be the twelfth to congratulate you on starting to sort things out:-)

A couple of comments:

I think that I initially responded to the feeling of isolation you conveyed, as
did some of the other people who replied to the base note. We were urging you to
get out of a dangerous situation and put yourself in the hands of a support
network of some kind. In fact, by showing that you could act on your own behalf
you seem to have started a process where you can both work together to sort
things out. 

Hopefully, knowing that there is support out there can help others in a similar
position to take control.

RE: your SO's mother: This rings a bell. My father always refused any kind of
counselling for his children. He said that somebody who didn't know how evil we
were could only think that we'd either inherited it or been brought up that way,
and he wasn't going to have anybody blaming him for our delinquencies.
Fortunately, most of the problems we had were only problems for him (like
listening to pop music....)

Good luck!

Helen
69.51ELESYS::JASNIEWSKIWhy not ask why?Thu May 05 1994 16:0823
    
    	Re Anonymous -
    
    	Last night I showed my wife my last reply here, sort of in a "Look
    at what I wrote context". She wasnt too pleased with my congratulating 
    you in your choice to stay with your husband, as he's been abusive.
    (Ummm, she doesnt tolerate that stuff.)
    
    	What she said that's possibly useful, that I thought was worth
    mentioning was the idea of "abuser's remorse". She mentioned it in 
    the context of your testing your husbands resolve; "Already? - of course 
    he's going to put forth the correct response!"
    
    	From what she said, "abuser's remorse" is a ticket of good behavior 
    that lasts about 3 weeks - before the old behaviors start to surface
    again. I'm not saying this to frighten you or give you cause to change
    your mind, only to let you know that it's something that's been discovered, 
    qualified and named and is a real thing that happens sometimes - so you 
    can be aware of it.
    
    	Be safe,
    
    	Joe
69.52Be very carefulLEDS::BRAUNRich BraunMon May 09 1994 14:2415
    Re: abuser's remorse
    
    While I haven't had to deal with violence in my relationships, I can
    relate to the 3-week period which Joe just mentioned.  After a
    disagreement is resolved by pledges of better behavior, the real test
    comes about 2 to 4 weeks later when the immediacy and compelling
    emotional feelings of the dispute have faded.
    
    Actions speak louder than words.  Watch what people do, and take words
    with a grain of salt.
    
    -rich
    Mass Storage Engineering OEM D&SG  SHR1-3/O13    DTN:  237-2124
    Work: braun@leds.enet.dec.com                      508-841-2124
    Home: richb@pioneer.ci.net                URL http://www.pn.com
69.53The cylce of violenceWECROW::HILLIn casual pursuit of serenity.Mon May 09 1994 15:2532
Anon,
     I just read this chain of notes.

     I'm glad you survived his last outburst.

     Briefly I'd like to describe something called the cycle of violence. Usually 
after  a violent incident the there will be a groveling appology, gifts, a 
promise to change, seeking help maybe. There may be a period of calm. The wife 
feels safer, happier. The husband feels better. Then things get a little 
uncomfortable for him. The easiest thing for him is to use the behavior he 
knows best, shouting, threats, doorslamming, name calling, getting in your face,
stopping the wife from leaving, slapping, shaking, choking, thumping kicking.
The cycle repeats. It is hard to break. The violence gets worse each time.

     You may have started a path of recovery, if you have this is just a 
begining.

     I suspect you love him and he loves you but that doesn't protect you.

     I won't tell you to leave, that is your decision. I'd suggest that you find 
out more about groups for battered women and how the law will help you in your 
area. I'd suggest that you have an escape path in place for when this happens 
again.

     A statistic that I have heard quoted is that 1% of men who seek help for 
thier abusive behaviour succeed in not being abusive again.

     Emerge was mentioned a few notes back. They are based in Cambridge Mass and
can be contacted at (617)422-1548. Leave a message and they will get back to you.

	Good luck,
		Peter.
69.54LEDS::BRAUNRich BraunMon May 09 1994 21:4022
    Re:  -1
    
    I think that's wise advice.  Look at response .35 for a pointer to
    the Mass. Coalition of Battered Women's Shelters, and if you're in
    the greater Boston area, the shelter for my hometown (Somerville),
    Respond, can be contacted at 617-623-5900.  There is high demand for
    their services; among these services are concealed safe havens where
    your batterer will have a difficult time locating you.  Calling ahead
    before the next crisis may help get you improved access, and will
    certainly help get advise and counseling much more professional than
    I can offer myself. 
    
    The statistics for batterers are not good.  You don't deserve to be in
    a situation like this.  No one can make the decision for you to leave,
    but try to step out of the picture for a moment, detach the emotions,
    and ask yourself what the ideal world would be like for you.  It probably
    wouldn't include many components of this situation at all.
    
    -rich
    Mass Storage Engineering OEM D&SG  SHR1-3/O13    DTN:  237-2124
    Work: braun@leds.enet.dec.com                      508-841-2124
    Home: richb@pioneer.ci.net                URL http://www.pn.com
69.55Get out of there now!SECOP1::CLARKSat Jun 04 1994 22:4922
    1. Get out as soon as you can.
    
    2. Plan it. Where you will stay, clean out any savings accounts and
    take any material things you value if you have the room to carry it and
    store it. Take all your clothes and any items that have sentimental
    value to yourself.
    
    3. Be grateful you don't have children involved in this.
    
    4. Don't let this emotional blackmail "I'll kill myself if you leave"
    crap hinder you. This person will lie constantly to keep you there for
    further abuse.
    
    5. Lastly, if the abuser does commit suicide be grateful they didn't
    decide to kill you first and if that does come to pass be grateful that
    they aren't around to abuse other unsuspecting people. May sound pretty
    callous but I have seen so much of this crap over the years, I have 
    reached the point where I wish all those abusers (spouse/child) WOULD
    commit suicide. The world would be a lot better off and there would be
    a lot less abused children and spouses living lives of fear and pain.
    
    
69.56ELESYS::JASNIEWSKIWhy not ask why?Mon Jun 06 1994 13:0820
    
    	re -.1 
    
    	I agree it would be a "convienence" if all perpetrators of abuse
    would do themselves in, but that wouldn't *solve* anything; some
    proportion of the abused would eventually come to perpetrate further
    abuse. It's well known that there is a high degree of correlation
    between abusing and being abused; most abusers were once abused
    themselves...they "learned how" somewhere and at some point.
    
    	A true solution would be for an abuser to make the necessary effort 
    to recover from their affliction - and then serve society by teaching other 
    abusers about their recovery  - "how they did it" for themselves. At the 
    very least, they could simply present themselves to a group of abuse 
    survivors and allow themselves to be the target of their anger, to help 
    them in their recovery. But to just kill themselves, that's only a waste.
    
    	IMHO,
    
    	Joe
69.57SIETTG::HETRICKpretty pretenders negligent vendorsTue Jun 07 1994 00:0320
	  Joe, my understanding (from a psychologist who specializes in
     childhood abuse and in training other psychologists to deal with
     childhood abuse) is that abusing and having been abused are uncorrel-
     ated: the proportion of abuse victims in the abuser population and in
     the general population are identical.  The current statistics are that
     only about 3% of those who have been abused turn into abusers, just as
     in the general population; the rest tend to seek out further abuse,
     become co-dependent (just about the same thing), and/or become highly
     nurturing.

	  The conventional wisdom until a few years ago held that abuse
     victims grow up to be abusers, largely because abusers, when caught,
     reported being abuse victims.  Investigations of abusers' reports of
     having been abused show them to be almost uniformly false.

	  Suspecting abuse victims as having a high probability of becoming
     abusers simply revictimizes them, blaming them for having been abused.
     This is not good -- for anybody.

				     Brian
69.58ELESYS::JASNIEWSKIWhy not ask why?Tue Jun 07 1994 12:5532
    
    	Brian,
    
     >the general population are identical.  The current statistics are that
     >only about 3% of those who have been abused turn into abusers, just as
     >in the general population; 
    
    	Okay, thanks for enlightening me. So, at what point and why does
    someone who has no history of being abused decide they're going to
    act out abusively? And after making that entirely conscious decision,
    should they simply do us all a favor and "off themselves" as -.3 suggests?
    
    	It's understandable that I want this phenonema to simply fit in a
    box, and have it all tied up with the pretty bow of a 1st order cause 
    and effect; "this person is abusive because they themselves were once
    abused". 
    
    	It's unnerving to hear that 3% of the general population -
    with no prior history - just via their conditioning in this society,
    can "snap" at some point and become an abuser.
    	
    	In the context of this string, it sounds to me that the perpetrator
    is acting out a learned behavior - he got these ideas on how to resolve
    a conflict in a relationship from *somewhere*. If not necessarily from
    the seeds of experience planted in his own family history, then where?
    Did he just decide one day that "Gee, it might be effective if I just
    clock her one!"?
    
    	What do you think the person you quoted would have to say about these 
    questions?
    
    	Joe
69.59SIETTG::HETRICKpretty pretenders negligent vendorsThu Jun 09 1994 14:0116
	  Joe, my personal theory is that abusers are simply acting out
     implicit societal values -- that other people aren't real.  I don't
     see too much distinction between the value sets of, e.g., those who
     sexually abuse children and those who go out and kill someone for fun.
     In either case, they're just treating others as objects.  I think the
     underlying philosophical disagreement between those who abuse and
     those who are horrified at abuse is whether "power over" is accept-
     able.

	  I doubt very much it's a "snap," a break with behavior of the
     past.  It's just following a belief system to its logical conclusion.
     Either you buy into it or you don't.

	  And if this is right, what are the implications of video games?

				     Brian
69.60ELESYS::JASNIEWSKIWhy not ask why?Thu Jun 09 1994 15:3415
    	
    	Brian,
    
     >Joe, my personal theory is that abusers are simply acting out
     >implicit societal values -- that other people aren't real. 
    
    	So it is a matter of "conditioning", you think...
    
     >And if this is right, what are the implications of video games?
    
    	You mean games like the runs-on-a-PC "DOOM"? 
    
    	Joe

				     Brian
69.61Reply from anonymous author of base noteQUARK::MODERATORThu Jun 09 1994 17:2948
    'Hello noters,
              
    Thanks once again for everyone's responses, advice, help and  care. 
    It's been 8 weeks now since the incident and I'm pleased  to say that
    things are going well.
              
    We are still fighting, but he is no longer responding by  shouting,
    smashing things, threatening suicide or anything else  that is
    completely unacceptable.  The fights are less frequent  and result from
    basic insecurity on both parts (it's been a  really rocky road so far)
    and a lesser degree of jealousy and  mistrust on his part than before
    (both unjustified by me, learned  from previous relationships).
              
    We are still waiting on his Psychologists appointment coming  through
    and when it does we shall both attend, for the first few  at least.  He
    is living under the threat just now that if he so  much as breaks
    anything in temper or attempts to lift his hand to  me then I'm out.  A
    good thing because he doesn't want to lose me  but a bad thing because
    you can't live under threats.  Hopefully  the Psychologist will get to
    the core of his behaviour and sort  it out from there.
              
    From my own experience I really feel that his behaviour is  definitely
    learned from his parents.  He apparently has never  displayed the kind
    of temper he did with me, and he changed as  soon as we were married
    even though we'd lived together before -  it was as if I became his
    possession as his wife.  His father  certainly treated and still does
    treat his mother that way even  though they are divorced, though she
    stupidly allows it.
              
    There has been no contact with his Mother although that hurt him  ALOT
    at first.  I would like to see things patched up eventually  but not
    until she stops the emotional blackmail and guilt that  she has been
    putting on him particularly for the last five years.    Or until he has
    detached himself enough and is strong enough to  deal with her
    appropriately.
              
    As for his father, well he let me into the last remaining  confidences
    that he had kept from me because he thought I would  stop loving him if
    I knew, and his father is a horrifically nasty  man that I never want
    to set eyes on again.  I'm only worried how  my husband will deal with
    his passing away when it inevitably  happens if they never ever speak
    again.
              
    Thanks all again, and please feel free to comment on my note  and/or
    offer further advice or opinions as you see fit.'
              
              

69.62Reply from anonymous author of base noteQUARK::MODERATORWed Mar 13 1996 14:2849
         It's been almost two years since my original note.  My last note 
         in June 94 was full of hope.  I was wrong, there was more violent 
         attacks which he dismissed because he didn't 'beat me black and 
         blue' so that made it all OK.  I had my clothes ripped off me, my 
         face scratched, pushed, screamed at etc etc, terrorized sums it up 
         really. He also abuses him self by taking handfuls of painkillers 
         (he's usually sick afterwards) and not eating for days etc. 
         
         Well we've moved a long way a way from where this all began, to 
         see if removing him from bad memories and awful parents would 
         help.  It hasn't though he would argue it had because he's seen 
         violence counsellors and his GP for antidepressants.  
         Unfortunately for him (fortunately for me - I hope) I've called it 
         a day. I've had enough, my feelings have changed and I can't stand 
         being controlled any longer.  If he wants to kill himself he will 
         anyway and there's nothing I can do to stop him at the end of the 
         day.
         
         He's been sobbing and screaming at me all weekend saying I should 
         give him another chance, that I haven't given him long enough to 
         change.  He's had 3 years of my life and he doesn't deserve 
         another 5 minutes.  Regardless of his reasoning (which is all 
         based on 'pity me') I've had 4 days away from home (he harassed me 
         via the telephone on my first night away, for hours, so I took the 
         phone off the hook, I got messages put under the door by hotel 
         staff instead) where he couldn't get in touch with me easily and 
         the freedom gave me strength I needed to take back my life from 
         him.  There's no way I can live under constant pressure, 
         harassment, checking up, mistrust etc etc any longer.
         
         So the problem now?  I'm scared of the pain of another divorce.  
         I'm scared he will kill himself or have a nervous breakdown and 
         I'll carry the blame/guilt even though I know I shouldn't, I'm 
         scared I'll be broke for years and I'm scared of the uncertainty 
         this all brings.  What I do know is I'm a good person and I 
         deserve better.  I've also got a career and no-one is going to 
         hold me back.
         
         I suppose I just want reassurance I'm doing the right thing. I'm 
         feeling a bit guilty for breaking his heart.  Anyone else been 
         there and came through smelling of roses?
         
         In my heart I don't believe he can change, I just held on to hope 
         for too long (and was too frightened of him too).
         
         Thanks for everyone's comments and support before, please continue 
         to express your feelings and advice as freely as before - I need 
         it.
          
69.63QUARK::MODERATORWed Mar 13 1996 14:293
    At the author's request, I have unhidden her earlier contributions.
    
    				Steve
69.64TARKIN::BREWERWed Mar 13 1996 17:2623
	Wow..you have done one of the toughest thing..and you
	have put yourself ahead of him. I commend you and admire you.

	You are absolutely right (IMO)..you deserve better. MUCH MUCH
	
	better. 

	I would recommend a support group or private conseling..any kind of 
	safe place to share and  hear from other people who have
	had similar experiences. I guarantee there are
	women who have been where you are..and who have come out the other
	side of it. And..not only do you deserve better than
	what you were getting..you deserve ALL THE HELP you can get
	from where ever you can find it !! 


	What you have done already is HUGE stuff...HUGE HUGE HUGE. 
	
	Breaking out of the self-blame/blame game is just SO hard.
	Bless you..

	peace
	dotty
69.65ELESYS::JASNIEWSKIYour mind is in here and mine is alsoThu Mar 14 1996 15:1317
    
    	What Dotty said.
    
    	You're doing the right thing. He'll find someone else to beat, or,
    find his own way into recovering from his maladay.
    
    	Count on feelings of sorrow arising around the loss of your
    marriage, even if the only tangable one is the opportunity for things
    to "have worked" somehow. You can get through them; that's what tears
    and friends - personal or within a group of some sort - are for.
    
    	Thank-you for setting another example that abusers *can* be gotten 
    away from, from everyone who's not yet sick and tired of it.
    
    	Joe
    
    	
69.66ASDG::CALLFri Mar 15 1996 14:4937
    read my earlier notes again...
        .17 and .48
    This is from someone who walked in your shoes.
    I was married to a man for 9 years who was severly abusive.
    I've been divorced from him since 1981. He 'still' from time to time
    attacks me. In fact I'm taking him to court mon march 18th for
    harrassment. I'm hoping that if things become too painful for him to
    attack me that he 'will' stop. I live all the way across the united
    states from this man. I didn't feel 'safe' until I moved. Even then he
    would still send attacks. Always out of the blue and always severe. He
    doesn't care who gets hurt in these attacks. He's never been able to
    have a lasting relationship with anyone. His last girlfriend called me
    one night out of the blue to ask the question 'did he hit you'. I told
    her the truth. I hear he put her in the hospital. He's a sick, sick,
    puppy. I was his victim once...not any more.
    
    I know you wanted things to be different. You wanted a real
    relationship. Something healthy. I'm glad to hear you are on your way
    out. Hopefully there are no children involved. I also hope you have a
    counselor or some safe places to go. It may get real bad once you
    initiate a divorce. I know it did for me. It was a horrible divorce.
    
    In a way you lose self esteem..it's like you get beat down. It's real
    hard to come back up. You will have to work hard. You do deserve
    better. I know you will find someone else sometime in the future. For
    now take care of yourself. Heal. If you need someone to talk to I'm
    here.
    
    Your sorrow will someday turn to joy and happiness. There is still hope
    for you to someday have that relationship with someone special. (it
    won't be him-he'll go on to do it to the next one-and the next one)
    
    Try to learn..from this...and pls don't jump into another relationship
    right away. Take the time to heal...get the negative energy out. Then
    move on...
    
    again good luck to you
69.67where does the respect GO??KERNEL::WRIGHTDTue Mar 04 1997 16:1414
    Does anyone know if/how Anonymous has rebuilt her life since her last
    update last March.  I have been reading with fear and goosebumps all
    over at what women like this have to go through!
    
    It is one of my worst fears to get involved with someone like that -
    which i guess is why Im the extreme - I dont get too close to people
    at all...
    
    I feel that ALL the advice in here is totally unbiased and based on
    common sense and self-worth - if anyone else is reading that is
    experiencing similar problems, please take heed.
    
    
    
69.68QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centTue Mar 04 1997 18:364
The author appears to still be at Digital - I sent her mail and asked for
an update.

			Steve