Conference quark::human_relations

    There's nothing that says that divorced parents (custodial or not)
    can't both have active roles in the children's lives.  
    
    If I were a parent, I would strongly emphasize that mommy or daddy
    didn't move out because the kids were "bad".  True, some ages will have
    more difficulty understanding this.  But if both parents remain in 
    regular contact with the children, I don't think it would be so
    difficult.
    
    A harmonious couple can set a good example for their children.  A strong
    single parent sets a good example too.   A constantly bickering couple?
    My only experience is in that I dated a woman who was brought up in a 
    house like that.  She learned that it was normal for folks to yell at 
    each other.  The first time she did that to me - the relationship was 
    pretty much history.  She said she was just discussing the issue, but in 
    my world you don't yell and swear and throw things during discussions.  
    This was just one of many fundamental differences we discovered that
    were rooted in our different upbringings.
    
    I would feel guilty if I learned that my folks had given up their lives
    just to keep us all sitting at the same supper table every night.  
    
    For the basenoter, when will you consider your children "grown up" so
    that you can do what you've decided is right for you? 
      - When they're old enough to understand the word "divorce"?
      - When they graduate high school? 
      - When they graduate college?  
      - When they get married?  
    
    There's never going to be a good time.  Personally, I'd say to minimize 
    the bad time and start getting on with building a happier life.  But then, 
    I was brought up believing that being true to yourself is not selfish.
    
    
    -- Jeff
    
    background: I'm single, never been married, and my folks have been married
    for 30 years.

 I read a book a while back named A Case Against Divorce. I don't remember
 the authors name but she was a psychologist who had studied divorce and the
 affects of post divorce on Parents and Children. She let you draw your own
 conclusion on divorce but gave a lot of Pro's for staying together for the
 sake of your children. Obviously a totally disfunctional family where abuse
 is involved the author did not recomend salvaging. But she did make a good
 case for trying to work things out.

 After going through a divorce myself with a minnimum of distress on our
 children and a continued Joint Parenting effort I still see some sadness
 on my childrens part and a longing for the way things were. I sometimes
 wonder if it was all worthwhile. I friend once told me after he had initiated
 his divorce that afterwards he had regrets and still has longings after 5 years
 to regain what he gave up. He is still mourning this loss and regrets his
 decision to be free of the marriage bonds. Freedom has its price!

 Neil...

    I think another consideration is, how much should a parent be expected
    to sacrifice for a child?  As parents we all owe our children certain
    basics - love, clothing, shelter, food, education, etc.  But, on the
    other hand, parents are people, too, who also deserve to have good
    lives.  If a parent is totally miserable in their marriage, I don't
    think they should be expected to martyr themselves by living a life of
    misery, just so their children will have married parents.  As others
    have mentioned, it is possible for divorced parents to remain friends
    and continue to share in child rearing.
    
    It sometimes seems to me, that years ago the interests of children were
    not considered enough, but sometimes now it seems to me that things
    have gone to the other extreme.  It sometimes seems to me now that we
    are encouraged to think of children's interests to the exclusion of
    everyone else.  Yes, children are important, but so are adults.  Why
    should a human being be considered as a precious quantity until they
    reach the age of 18 or 21, only to then be thought of as just another
    adult whose well being doesn't matter.
    
    Lorna
    

Standard disclaimer: All of the following is "imho."

The only thing I would add here is that this seems to be one of those 
situations in life where there are no "good" choices.  There may be a
nasty choice, a sucky choice, a miserable choice, and a barely-
acceptable choice.  So, you take the last one. 

Also, as others have said, it's important to consider yourself #1.  
This is not a selfish thing.  If you don't care for yourself and you 
allow yourself to wither, you're useless to anyone else.  I think this 
applies not only in interpersonal relationships but also in your job.

Finally, after divorce, it is possible that both partners might find 
10x as much happiness in new relationships or marriages, much to the 
enjoyment of the kids.  Divorce doesn't necessarily imply spending
your remaining years in misery, unless divorce isn't really what was
desired in the first place.  How's that saying go?  "Careful, you
might actually get what you're asking for."  Something like that. 

I've never been in a marriage, so all the above might be just so much 
hot air, but it makes sense to me regardless.

- craig

    For what it's worth................
    
    9 years ago and after 19 years of marriage I decided to get a divorce.
    
    At that time my three daughters ranged in age from 9 to 16 years.  I
    made the final decision after MUCH debate with my inner self but
    concluded 'I' needed to do something for me. 
    
    There was no doubt in my mind that I wanted my daughters with me.
    The final decision was agreed jointly (spouse and myself), and
    my daughters all three came with me.  
    
    What's been the outcome?
    
    I've moved FAR away from where spouse #1 and I lived. Perhaps it
    made things easier for me.   
    
    I've remarried, am EXTREMELY happy but am still amazed (as are
    others) that I had the strength to do something for myself. 
    
    I feel sorrow at time for having inflected pain on my former spouse.
    
     As far as the girls go.   The divorce affected my eldest daughter
    the most.  At 25 she copes with the fact that her father has had
    nothing to do with her (nor her sisters) for a long time now. She
    yearns for fatherly affection but doesn't feel comfortable to 
    receive it from her step-father.  BTW, 2 years after the divorce and
    when she was 18, she returned to her birthplace and now resides within 
    5 miles distance from her paternal father.   We speak to each other
    on the phone (I'm 6000 miles away) at lease twice a month.  Our
    relationship is as strong and fullfilling as ever. Not once has she
    commented "why did you leave Dad", on the contrary she often comments
    I can see why you needed to leave!
      
    My other daughters still stay close to my new home.  The middle daughter 
    seems less affected by the lack of interest her paternal father decided 
    to bestow upon her.  She currently is attending university, calls her
    step-father 'dad' and reminds me of a very settled young lady.  
    
    My youngest daughter still lives at home.  Seldom speaks about how life
    was in the past.  She would never introduce her step-father as anyone
    other than her dad, for to her he IS her dad.  
    
    Please come to your own conclusions, as I do understand that whats
    right for one doesn't necessarily make it right for another.   
    
                                                                    

    
    	Emphatically, "No". I dont personally agree with the findings either...
    
    	My own experience is one where my parents, who just so often in my
    childhood couldnt #*$!'in *stand* each other, ended up staying together
    for my sake.
    
    	While a breakup might have led to feelings of longing for the family
    to be again united, staying together "cause of me" sorta transferred the
    responsibility for it all onto my shoulders. Nice, eh?
    
    	Even if at an unconscious level, what a weight for a kid (or "the
    kids") to carry! That's not a burden I'd care to hand-off to *anyone*. 
    The wonderful feeling of being personally accountable for the two beings 
    whom I loved and cherished the most out of anyone in the whole world's 
    continued *misery*.
    
    	Another ramification of that choice was the teaching that giving up
    one's own happiness and serenity is somehow a virtue. It is not. It's
    only taken my whole 27 year history since that time to gleen even an 
    inkling that *no-one* is worth sacrificing my own happiness and serenity 
    for. I cant even imagine how different my life would've been had my
    parents set the opposite example.
    
    	IMHO, parent are responsible for making a marriage - their
    full-time relationship essentially - work. If they cannot, or aren't
    willing to, they have no business being together, period. The reason
    why is because the dynamics will continue to go on and change in the
    family system, with possibilities of lots of *really* dysfunctional
    stuff happening. Like "cross-generational bonding" - that's what
    happened in my family. Dad lost his ability to take care of Mom
    emotionally - so, guess who 'somehow became in charge' of taking care
    of Mom's feelings? I was 10 years old, with something to handle that
    was too much for my father at 43, apparently. Real "HAPPY DAYS" for
    me, I'll tell you.
    
    	Down to the nitty-gritty, I think "staying together for the sake of
    the kids" is a cop-out. That decision is for people who'd choose to
    load it all on their kids - with whatever the attendant damage - rather 
    than have the guts to face themselves. Or go through the pain of making
    the change. I mean, I should know - there's no "tower of strength" male
    model in my history who's had the courage to do anything except base the
    rest of his life on a first-order rationalization like "Life'll suck
    for me - but I dont want to hurt little Joey".
    
    	Joe
    
    	
    
    	

My personal feeling is that it depends upon the kids and their ages. Certain
kids, after a certain age, are old enough to understand what's going on and
able to see the benefits of a split. Likewise, certain kids under certain
ages will be almost unaffected by the split itself, although there may be
issues as they mature with respect to the "missing" parent, depending on
what develops in the life of the custodial parent. That leaves the age
group in between for which it may normally be difficult. Those who see
what's happened but can't rationalize it in a healthy way. I don't begin
to pretend that I can put numbers on these age brackets. Like I said,
it differs according to the individual child.

  The answer is: you'll never know what's best.  My parents stayed
  together; as a matter of fact, they just celebrated their 50th
  anniversary.  Would it have been better for the children had they split
  up?  We'll never know -- they didn't split.
  
  Now, you can get anecdotal evidence about families that split, and
  families that stay together, but you'll never be able to know what
  might have happened had the other path been chosen -- it wasn't.
  
  One can speculate endlessly, but once you make a decision, the alternate
  path is lost forever.
  
  					andrew

  What I can tell you, from personal experience, and from observation:
  If you think you're doing your children a favor by staying in a loveless,
  painful situation for "their" sake, you're not.

    I hope that I'm not to late for this discussion.  This one hits home
    for me.  My wife and I split up in 92 'cuz she didn't want the
    "responsibilities of marraige anymore".  After much tearful discussion,
    I told her that if that's the case then she wasn't going to get the
    kids.  I am raising two girls ages 5 and 6.  When one parent does not
    want to be there then they must go or it will somehow translate to some
    form of anger that may head to your children.  I encourage her to see
    the kids as often as possible (which still doesn't seem like enough to
    me), and to call them.  
    
    At first one would cry about wanting to see mommy, but that is getting
    few and far between.  That scares me and it should scare her.  
    
    For me the answer is - Dont stay together because of the kids.  If you
    can't take care of your self and your needs, how can you take care of
    your children?  They may not be able to voice it but they internalize
    what you're feeling.
    
    Dave

 Its unfortunate that what one parent wants is the only consideration
 in most divorces! I feel that if divorce is what both parents want and
 the consideration for their children's welfare is important to both parents
 then an amicable divorce whereby both parents play an active role in raising
 their children could be the best alternative to a disfunctional family
 environment.

 It seems to me that this is almost never the case. Usually one parent leaves
 and the other is devistated. In these cases the pain felt by the children
 and their parents can linger on for many years causing a very troubled life
 for children and at least one if not both parents. Not to mention the hatred
 and animosity the parents bestow upon each other and expose their children
 to in nasty divorce cases.

 In the cases of fathers who don't want divorce it adds a whole new set of
 problems for this parent and his children within our current legal system.
 All one needs to do is look at how gender biased the courts are to see how
 much hardship a father can be put through regardless if the divorce was
 initiated by him or not.

 I personally feel as well as a large number of pschologists that the
 biological parents cannot be completely replaced in childrens lives.
 The longing for the missing parent whether brought on by divorce or death
 is very hard on children. In the case of death it can sometimes be less
 painful since the child can eventually accept the loss of the parent who
 will never return and thus be comforted by the possibility that their
 parent will be with them spiritually.

 I'm sure there are plenty of step parents who long for the affection of
 their step childern but know that the childs longing for their missing
 biological parent regardless of the situation which brought it about is
 a large obstacle to overcome.

 Parents who pack up the children after divorce and relocate as far as possible
 from the childrens other biological parent may be doing this to help themselves
 heal from the pain of divorce and start a new life but this in most cases
 causes their children increased pain and emotional hardship.
  
 I feel that we as parents who brought new life into this world have the
 responsibility as parents to play a significant role in raising them. Also
 I strongly feel that no person has the right to take another parents right
 to be actively involved in their childrens life away accept in cases where
 the child has been physicaly or sexualy abused and it would be unsafe for
 the child to be in close contact with that parent.

 Neil....

    A  lot of people marry for the wrong reasons, that's why there are so
    many broken marriages. IF, everybody who get married thought that a
    marriage is for EVER, that there is no way out, it would be far fewer
    splits! but in this age it is too easy to break a vow and start anew...
    
    No doubt that it hurts, but is being done all the time... and those who
    divorce do marry again and start the process again and again... and it
    hurts over and over... we all have the chance to make a marriage work,
    but we're too much in a hurry and do not let time to work anything out,
    to get used to each other, to understand and nurture each other... to
    grow together, not apart... there're just hardly time for that any
    more.
    
    Ana
    

    re .12, how can you speak for divorced people?  I thought you were
    happily married, judging by your notes.  Well, if that is the case, and
    you are happily married, then I don't see how you can presume to know
    what happens in the personal lives of divorced people.  
    
    I think you come across as sounding so smug just because you got lucky
    and your marriage has worked so far.  A lot of us who have wound-up
    divorced started our marriages thinking that they would last forever,
    too, you know.  And, a lot of us worked damn hard to make them work,
    but sometimes it doesn't no matter what you do.  As many have said, it
    takes two.  Don't think that just because someone is divorced that they
    didn't work hard to make their marriage work.
    
    And, also, everyone divorced person doesn't remarry, divorce, remarry
    again, over and over again.  I was divorced 9 yrs. ago and I have not
    remarried, nor do I have any plans or desire to do so.
    
    Lorna
    

    When I got married I thought you got married and that was it.
    Forever...Divorce wasn't a common thing in my family. I took my vows
    very seriously. I took 2 and a half years to make the decision to
    divorce. My husband and I went to counseling for 6 months. We had
    3 children together. What I learned in counseling was that once they
    start to hit you they will never stop. The hitting did in fact get
    worse and worse. I took my small children and left him. I used to thank
    god every day that there 'was' a way out.
    
    Please be careful before you judge someone. I'm sure they take the
    decision to divorce seriously. They have their own reasons. I'm pro
    choice. No one should be forced to live an unhappy life.
    
    Also remember that it takes two. If one wants out there is nothing that
    the other one can do. You can try and try but if the other one doesn't
    want it...it 'is' over.
                                                                 

    Thanks God that there are many people who do try to make the marriage
    to work and I know "many" who keep on trying... I am only sorry
    for those who don't (and I know a few, personally, but there
    is nothing anyone can do but feel sorry and pray and hope for the
    best... what else?)
    Ana
    

To those who have done what they've had to do ... for the RIGHT
reasons, I salute them.  Keeping a marriage together, solely for
the sake of the children is NOT the right reason.  There are lots
of tough things kids have to face in life, and grieving over the
loss of family is a tough one ... I know ... I did it.  But, I
think that I am now actually a better person for it ... I seriously
think that you can harm the children as much if not more in a
dysfunctional single family usint as in a multiple family unit.

My only regret is that my parents didn't even attempt to make it
easier for us ... we were the messengers of bitterness and misin-
formation between them for many years.

My brother divorced a couple years ago from his wife after 3 children.
He had had children thinking it would save his marriage.  It actually
drove him further from his wife.  He rebelled against the responsibility
that his wife pushed on him to look after his children.  He was having
an "accidental" affair ... he felt pressured by home and work, he met
a woman who was battered and   he tried to help her ... they found
mutual sympathy and hey presto.  The strange thing was that even as he
planned divorce, he became depressed about it.  

When he went to a doctor, because of the depression, it became clear
that he was under such pressures from work, from parenting, from being
a husband that he couldn't cope.  He'd forgotten how to be himself,
and he'd forgotten how to be a husband.  He realized why the affair
happened.  But he still divorced after a lot of counselling and the
affair fizzled.

He became an excellent father to his children and a good friend of his
ex-wife, because he started to look after himself.  He hasn't remarried
yet.  His children are doing fine.

He finally dicorced because he was doing it for himself because of himself,
not for his mistress, not because of his wife or family.

Abuse is a different side of divorce.  Abusive relationships must be terminated
for the leaving partner, because of the other partner.

Stuart

    
    	Your "only regret" struck a chord in me - It's a communication I need
    to make - that they really didnt try to make *their* relationship
    difficulties any easier on *me*.
    
    	That "they did the best they could with what they had" notwithstanding;
    I'm sure they didnt "intend" to hurt me, I still feel hurt and angry
    about it, it still damaged me greatly.
    
    	Intentions aren't relevant; If someone backed the car over both
    your legs - but they didnt mean to; it wasnt their "intention" to do
    that - you still can be hurt and angry over it. That's an entirely
    appropriate emotional response.
    
    	Likewise...
    
    	I'm sorry to read that your parents made you - the kids - the
    conduit of the bitterness and animosity they had between them. That
    must've been *terribly* damaging to you! I'm sorry to read how your
    brother tried to work it out in the ordinary manner (I'll get married;
    I'll have kids; I'll have an affair) and just ended up feeling his
    depression (which I think may be originally sourced from what happened)
    anyway - leaving his own trail of tradgedy in his wake of doing so.
    
    	I'm glad to read that he's recovering too - thanks for sharing!
    
    	Joe

    I was reading through these notes and this topic is "very" familiar to 
    me.  As a child of parents who stayed together "for the sake of the
    Children" and are still together...despite the fact that we kids are 
    grown adults and no longer live at home...I can identify with a lot 
    of what has been said.  As a child this issue was a hot topic with
    me and it caused me a lot of grief to see two people who are not made
    to be together stay together and I suffered greatly and still do.   
    I have had to reinvent role  models of what a good marriage should be 
    and outa be becuase my family was so dysfunctional and I cannot use 
    my parents marriage as positive role model.  I have a lot of anger 
    against my mother  becuase she "stayed" and is "still" there in the 
    marriage.  Us kids, especially myself took the burden of an unhappy 
    marriage and I do resent it because like someone said earlier 
    my parents did not make it easy on me *At all* .  I have been trying 
    to let a lot of the anger go but it is hard to do.  
    
    Anyway,  Now that I have been on my own for a few years it is still
    hard to let someone in my life becuase I still have these "negative" 
    images of relationships.  I have had to keep my family at arms length
    because I can no longer, and do not want to, be responsible for their
    unhappiness.  I am not responsible for it.  I cannot cure it, nor
    did I cause it.  But like I said earlier it is a painful process to let
    go and let someone in my life.
    
    If this note rambles forgive me.
    
    - S