Conference quark::human_relations

I think it's all in how people express themselves, and interpretation of their
statements.  If someone says something as blatantly prejudiced as "rock isn't
even music", I sure wouldn't take it as face value.  My normal response would
be something like "different opinions are what make the world go around", or
"There are many rock songs I think are wonderful music, even if you think it all
stinks".  I know I state things rather strongly, but do not usually mean that
what I say is the only opinion worth expressing.  Even though I express myself
positively, I may be totally wrong due to ignorance!!  Some people believe
everything they hear, even though unless it's a hard core fact all a person
can do is state their own beliefs/opinion.  Because I normally don't beat around
the bush, and say things in a fairly straight forward manner, I put an unheard
'In my opinion' in front of most statements people make!

On the other foot, some people make such statements just to stir things up.
This can be rather infuriating. Some people, on the other hand are just plain
stupid!

Just my opinion!

Laura

    Anyone who votes for Jesse Helms has rocks in his/her head.
    
    Right?
    
    Well, more than half the voters of North Carolina keep doing it,
    despite my strongly-worded opinion.
    
    I think people who make statements like mine above can mean it in two
    different ways:
    
      1)  They really mean to say "I don't care for <X>", where X in this
          case is Jesse Helms
      2)  They really do mean to say "Society would be better off if more
          people than myself would reject <X>", where X is Jesse Helms.
    
    Obviously in my example, I mean to say (2).  In the earlier example of
    rock music, people who say rock is not music, or rock fans are dolts,
    or something of the sort, really mean to say something to the effect of
    (1), but haven't considered how to say this in a sensitive way.
    
    Practice in public speaking will quickly make it obvious when to use
    these forms of expression; if you get up in front of a large group and
    say Republicans are all jerks then you'll quickly get the kind of feedback
    which suggests you might reword your comments to "I don't care for
    Republican party values" or the like.
    
    A lot of people don't make these distinctions and it puts people off.
    
    -rich
    Mass Storage Engineering OEM D&SG  SHR3-1/W7     DTN:  237-2124
    Work: braun@leds.enet.dec.com                      508-841-2124
    Home: richb@pioneer.ci.net

In Scientology we explain this somewhat annoying characteristic in people by 
the term "service facsimilie" which means a conclusion or incident that 
serves to make other people wrong and 'self' right. They come about because 
the person was in a difficult situation in which he was not winning or actually 
lost and so his mind in order to 'survive' made the conclusion that 'all ____'s
are bastards' or what ever. And since this conclusion helped in the past to 
make self right and others wrong, the person holds on to this data very 
strongly because it has proved to work for him. And because he believes it 
    so strongly, he has to tell the whole world about it and that's 
where you come in. :-)

So you should feel sorry for people who have these type of prejudices and glad
that you don't have so many of them. 

I used to have a few good service facsimilies myself. ;-)

Alan.

    	Re .0 -
    
    	I think the way some opinions are expressed are clearly "baiting"
    someone to fight.
    
    	The examples you gave sounded to me to be very challenging,
    in the context of "putting someone on the defensive". They accomplish
    this first and foremost by being profoundly judgemental statements.
    They also - via their wording - clearly set up the "tone" of whatever 
    interaction follows. They seem to imply that if you believe differently, 
    the judgement implicitly extends to include you.
    
    	If I "took the bait" or "invitation to fight" with someone making
    such statements, my replys might be something like -
    
    	 Yeah, well how can people listen to *you*?
    or	 I can think of better things to do with my energy too...see ya!
    or   I cant see how I can stand to watch the kind of thing YOU are
         either...
    or	 Well perhaps you should go to the Library and educate yourself -
         if you *can*.
    
    	If this were an actual dialog, in one transaction it would have
    degenerated to nothing useful, certainly not a "discussion". I dont
    consider an exchange of implicitly personalized statements steeped
    in judgement to be a discussion. That's something else.
    
    	To avoid the trap or "bait", one might simply reply; "what you've
    already concluded [rock, sports, movies...] to be is basically none of 
    my business and I really dont care. Talk to me about something you're
    still unsure of - perhaps I could offer you some discussion on the topic".

    	That would shut 'em up, quite effectively I'd imagine. It might
    even lead to something useful, as far as an interaction goes.
    
    	Joe    

I think such staetements are abusive.
It's almost like saying you are stupid if you listen to rock music.
I don't care to interact with people who talk that way.


Anyway rock is music. At least there is a legal precedent. Apparently some time 
ago somebody brought a case againt the Rolling Stones under the Noise Abatement
laws. The conclusion was that the law did not apply as this was not noise but 
music. Yes, that was a rat hole.

	Peter.

    Just went on a long errand via Lowell to my insurance agent and the
    scenic Registry of Motor Vehicles office, and had the pleasant
    experience of spending about 40 minutes of driving time within the
    fringe reception area of FM 100.3 (a Portsmouth NH radio station which
    in my opinion is the only Boston-area station I can listen to without
    switching frequencies every 10 minutes).
    
    All this talk about rock music got me to wondering how it is that the
    collective opinions of music producers, record companies, and radio
    stations have managed to outweigh the opinions of people like me who
    want to listen to decent music.  I miss the days when I used to enjoy
    several newly-released songs per month, and wish those days would
    return.
    
    -rich 
    Mass Storage Engineering OEM D&SG  SHR3-1/W7     DTN:  237-2124
    Work: braun@leds.enet.dec.com                      508-841-2124
    Home: richb@pioneer.ci.net

    re: .0
    
    I agree completely with what you are saying.   For me, there is an
    important distinction between saying "I dislike something" and putting
    down people who engage in the something you dislike.  Unfortunately,
    this is such a commonplace practice.  I tolerate and ignore it in
    strangers and aquaintainces, but for close friends I call them on it,
    saying that I don't like to be talked to that way.
    
    mm