Conference quark::human_relations

	If you care to read about this issue, you may want to
	pick up the May/June 1993 issue of "Psychology Today"
	which features a cover story called, _The Aftermath
	of Infidelity_.  The article is written by a psychologist
	from years of patient visitations.  It describes the type
	of people who have affairs, how it happens, some myths
	about infidelity, etc..

	It is not only descriptive, but categorizes people who
	have affairs, so be forewarned that you may find it to
	hit close to home (I believe your note said you had
	"been there").   Some people, do not enjoy being thus
	categorized.

	I'm certainly no expert, but will speak with you if you like.

	Good luck

    If you've discussed things up front with your partner, and have sexual
    relations outside the primary marriage/relationship, is it still called
    an 'affair'?
    
    -rich
    Mass Storage Engineering OEM D&SG  SHR3-1/W7     DTN:  237-2124
    braun@leds.enet.dec.com                            508-841-2124

    Affairs do NOT have to happen if the person is honest and happy in his
    or her marriage.  Only when something is missing and the person
    involved is not secure is when affairs come into the picture...
    
    A married person is NOT free to seek sex outside of marriage.  Marriage
    is a "sacrament" with the responsibility of faithfulness.  What happens
    is that in today's society we do NOT see it as a sacrament but as a
    "contract" that can be drawn or destroyed according to the needs of the
    parties.  Blunt and simple but true. And if a contract marriage can be
    broken so often... why do we need affairs?  Why cheat on people when is
    so simple to say "I don't love you anymore"?  
    
    My personal opinion is that I would NOT ever get into a cheating situation
    with my spouse, I am mature enough to take any decision up front and 
    discuss anything face to face, whatever subject that might be. If love
    wears off a bit through the years commitment does not, and life gives
    plenty of good things to enjoy through marriage. (in reality, love
    does NOT wane through the years but the contrary, it gets more solid as
    years pass by and a lot sweeter and less "impetuous", according to what 
    I see in "older couples"... and I know quite a few!)
    Ana
    

    
    RE: .2
    
    No, I do not think that if a discussion is held and both
    parties agree that intimacy is not off limits; that it does
    not threaten the core agreement to work through life's joys
    and trials together...that it can any longer be called an
    "AFFAIR".
    
    Such a word.."affair"...it connotes lies and secrecy. Do yuo
    think it might be easier to discuss this topic if we used
    a less judgemental term? 
    
    How about "intmacy outside the core relationship" or some
    other sufficiently generic term?
    
    We are all human...and humans reach out to each other in times
    of need...in timmes of joy...sometimes just in shere joy at
    discovering another soul with the same view on the universe.
    These discoveries need not define a denegration to the
    core realtionship; in fact they can revitalize it.
    
    [Please note that I am not assuming that these contacts
    _do_ or _do not_ include sex. Intimacy is defined by many more
    things than clinical penetration.
    
    Melinda
    

Isn't having an affair all about secrecy and lies? I think the basenoter is
referring to affairs to mean secret sexual relations outside of their "normal"
relationship and I think affair is the right term to use. For most people, I 
assume that any relationship of this kind they want to keep secret from their 
partner.

I personally feel that people have affairs because something is lacking in their
relationship with their partner. This could be sexual, but could also just be
the excitement experienced in meeting someone knew. The romance that may have
died in a long relationship. It can tear relationships apart, but can also 
strengthen them, but I feel the threat of the relationship breaking up is the
reason for the secrecy.


	Ian

    Why did I raise the question of "affairs" vs. nonmonogamous
    relationships?  Because I know of a number of nonmonogamous
    relationships that seem to work out very well over time:  in order to
    maintain such a relationship, communications have to be well above
    average, and indeed honest communication is the most vital ingredient
    of a long-term stable relationships.
    
    In my own experience, I've run into problems either way:  in one
    relationship, we discussed non-monogamy and decided it would be OK. 
    Then things blew up when I tried to be honest and reassuring that the
    primary relationship was still and always would be just that, primary.
    In that and others, monogamy turned out to be the death of the
    relationship, owing to boredom or, far more often, distrust caused
    by the lies (too many "monogamous" relationships just plain aren't,
    despite what people say).

    Alas honesty is not sufficiently rewarded in this society.  (The
    problem goes far beyond marital fidelity, alas...)
    
    -rich
    Mass Storage Engineering OEM D&SG  SHR3-1/W7     DTN:  237-2124
    braun@leds.enet.dec.com                            508-841-2124
    

My partner and I had an interesting discussion about affairs just the other
night.

Her feeling is that if I were to have an affair, and then it was over, and
I didn't expect it to happen again, and I felt it was a mistake, then my
partner doesn't want to hear about it, since she feels the pain of knowing
is too much for her.

I told her I feel differently.  Were she to have an affair, I do want her to
tell me about it, regardless of whether it's over, or whether she expects it
to happen again.  My feeling is, hurt or no hurt, I want all the cards on the
table, and I want to know what's going on.

/Eric

    If my partner had an affair... it would be the END of our marriage
    instantaneously!!! I could NOT trust a person who betrayned me on
    purpose as an affair is something we are not forced into, only if we
    want to, and knowing this, if my partner did it... he knows perfectly
    well the consequences of that action.  Of course that would work for me
    too, if I ever betray my husband... I won't have a husband any more and
    it would be my fault, so knowing this, it is very easy for us to keep
    out of problems ... our rules are cristal clear and accepted by both!
    
    I don't deny that somethings like that do happen, it would break my
    heart to be in that situation, but it would NOT change things, breaking
    our vows means breaking our marriage, and with that in mind it makes 
    marriage "fairly safe and sound"... 

    .8 - Things are never as crystal clear in the middle of this kind of 
    crisis as they seem to be prior to it.  They probably should be, but
    they just aren't when you're confronted with the actual situation.  

    re .9, that's very true.  In addition, I think there are a few people
    who have affairs in the hope that doing so will somehow get them *out*
    of an unhappy marriage.
    
    Lorna
    

 There are many reasons that a person will have an affair from
 instability in their relationship, the excitement of another
 persons attraction or to inflict pain on their partner inorder
 to terminate the relationship or just be hurtful. Sometimes its
 all of the above. I don't know of any GOOD reason a person has an
 affair and I don't see any GOOD coming out of one.

 I think the key to understanding why someone will have an affair is
 to understand the person and your relationship with them. I do feel
 that an affair/addultry is an act even if done unintentionaly will
 bring severe pain to another person/persons and is "in my opinion"
 the most unacceptable "legal" crime against society that any person
 can perform. We penalize and incarcerate people for physical abbuse
 and sometimes psychological abuse depending on circumstances. However
 when it comes to crippleing someone emotionally caused by the infidelity
 of their spouse it is dissmissed as acceptable behavior for this day and
 age. Look at movies and daytime TV to see how often affairs are the subject
 matter and infact the central theme. I shutter to think of a future where
 affairs/addultry will be as acceptable in society as lies.

 Neil...
  

 

    Eek, it's hardly a punishable crime to be lying and deceitful to
    your partner, but it should not have to come down to that.
    
    The last few responses on this thread have really convinced me that
    the chains which bind our society together induce more lying and deceit
    than we'd have in a society which said "so what?" about sex and
    sexuality.
    
    In my opinion, we humans really do have a lot more to worry about than
    who's sleeping with whom.  Too bad it's such a big deal that our other
    collective problems go unresolved.
    
    If in some future monogamous relationship I feel the urge for an
    "affair", I would much rather reveal it to my partner immediately
    and face the consequences, than to hide behind a mask of shame and
    guilt.  Only in that way could whatever problem led to the behavior
    be discussed and resolved.
    
    Of course, it would take a *lot* to convince me to enter into a
    monogamous relationship in the first place, after my last one.
    
    -rich
    Mass Storage Engineering OEM D&SG  SHR3-1/W7     DTN:  237-2124
    Work: braun@leds.enet.dec.com                      508-841-2124
    Home: richb@pioneer.ci.net

    re .12, yup, I agree with you.
    
    Lorna
    

    That's the ticket, jail time for adulterers... lock up 1/2 to 3/4 of
    the adult population.  
    
    - M

Rich, 
   
>    If in some future monogamous relationship I feel the urge for an
>    "affair", I would much rather reveal it to my partner immediately
>    and face the consequences, than to hide behind a mask of shame and
>    guilt.  Only in that way could whatever problem led to the behavior
>    be discussed and resolved.
    
 
Do you have to have an affair to confess about in order to open up and talk
about whatever problem led to the behavior?  To us, in our relationship,
communication and honesty are extremely important.  If there is a problem,
it's better to talk about it even if it hurts, before something disatrous
like an affair occurs!  Of course, the level of committment is a big factor
here.

Laura

Laura wrote:
    
>Do you have to have an affair to confess about in order to open up and talk
>about whatever problem led to the behavior?  To us, in our relationship,
>communication and honesty are extremely important.
    
    I don't mean to suggest that I'd have to go out and have sex outside
    the relationship in order to raise some significant issue, just that if
    it did happen it'd be better to talk about it than to hide it.  And I
    wouldn't ever tell a partner that "the relationship is history the
    minute I catch you with another man".
    
    This is just my set of values; obviously two people who share vows
    with one another, and mean them, and maintain an honest and open line
    of communication with each other will have different expectations of
    one another.
    
    To clarify my own values, I guess what I'm saying is that in a
    relationship I'd have with someone, no subject would be taboo, and the
    only grounds for immediate termination of the relationship would be
    catching the partner lying about anything, big or small.
    
    So long as there is honesty and communication, any problem can be
    resolved.  When the honesty is gone, then IMHO the relationship has
    lost its foundation.
    
    I remain skeptical of any commitments which are based on prohibitions,
    since this forces a person to do one of two things in the aftermath of
    any "slip" in behavior:  lie about it, or reveal it and risk
    termination of something vitally important.  In so many situations,
    lying is the easier course to take.  I don't want to force that on
    anyone.
    
    -rich
    Mass Storage Engineering OEM D&SG  SHR3-1/W7     DTN:  237-2124
    Work: braun@leds.enet.dec.com                      508-841-2124
    Home: richb@pioneer.ci.net
    

    
>    I don't mean to suggest that I'd have to go out and have sex outside
>    the relationship in order to raise some significant issue, just that if
>    it did happen it'd be better to talk about it than to hide it. 

	I misunderstood what you wrote then, Rich.  I definitely agree if it
	happened it would be better to talk about it than hide it.  
   
 >   This is just my set of values; obviously two people who share vows
 >   with one another, and mean them, and maintain an honest and open line
 >   of communication with each other will have different expectations of
 >   one another.
  
	Or even two people who have committed themselves to the relationship,
	and have not necessarily taken "vows".  To me, I don't have to take
	vows to remain faithful.
  
>    To clarify my own values, I guess what I'm saying is that in a
>    relationship I'd have with someone, no subject would be taboo, and the
>    only grounds for immediate termination of the relationship would be
>    catching the partner lying about anything, big or small.
 
	No subject should be taboo, as far as I'm concerned.  I sure wouldn't
	say what would be grounds for immediate termination, but it certainly
	wouldn't be lying about something small.  I'd want to know the
	reasons behind the lie.
   
 >   So long as there is honesty and communication, any problem can be
 >   resolved.  When the honesty is gone, then IMHO the relationship has
 >   lost its foundation.
  
	I totally agree with this.
  
>    I remain skeptical of any commitments which are based on prohibitions,
>    since this forces a person to do one of two things in the aftermath of
>    any "slip" in behavior:  lie about it, or reveal it and risk
>    termination of something vitally important.
    
	I certainly hope you see promising to be faithful to each other
	as a prohibition.  To me, it's not a prohibition, it's a commitment!
	Especially in this day and age where you can get an give an incurable,
	deadly disease.  To me, it's not worth the risk!

Laura

Reply .12

> Eek, it's hardly a punishable crime to be lying and deceitful to
> your partner, but it should not have to come down to that.
 
  Maybe not, but when the risk of transmitting a life threatening sexually
  transmitted disease is there, lying and deciept about a persons sexual
  relations can take on a whole new slant. 

> In my opinion, we humans really do have a lot more to worry about than
> who's sleeping with whom.  Too bad it's such a big deal that our other
> collective problems go unresolved.

  This maybe true, but in this time in history "who's sleeping with whom"
  has become a major cause of death.

> Of course, it would take a *lot* to convince me to enter into a
> monogamous relationship in the first place, after my last one.
  
  There is a lot to be said for monogamy these days! I suppose you could
  choose abstinence or just take the risk and hope your safe.

 Neil...

>  There is a lot to be said for monogamy these days! I suppose you could
>  choose abstinence or just take the risk and hope your safe.

    Neil, I find your comments here to be moralizing and somewhat
    demeaning.  I have experience in this area that surely you don't.
    
    My most recent long-term partner was HIV+, and I am not (to my
    knowledge).  Education works wonders when it comes to matters like sex
    and death.  Please learn more about this subject.  A good place to
    start is HBO's "And the Band Played On" movie which is currently
    showing on cable.
    
    I have created a separate topic 46 for discussing AIDS.
    
    regards,
    -rich
    Mass Storage Engineering OEM D&SG  SHR3-1/W7     DTN:  237-2124
    Work: braun@leds.enet.dec.com                      508-841-2124
    Home: richb@pioneer.ci.net
    

    I agree with Neil.  Education can help prevent the spread of AIDS, but
    monogamy and abstanance can stop it!  It's not worth risking your life
    and someone elses for a 20 minute cheap thrill.  All affairs are wrong
    whether or not your married.  If my husband had an affair the marriage
    would be over, because if having sex with someone else out-weighed my 
    feelings and our marriage, then he wouldn't deserve to be married to me.
    Being attracted to other people is natural, it is what you do with the
    attraction that makes all the difference in the world.  If you are
    thinking about having an affair, take time to ask yourself why.  Do you
    not love your partner anymore? Do you feel neglected, or is your sex
    life not what it used to be?  Sex with your partner can improve if you
    just use a little imagination!  If the answer is that you don't love
    your partner anymore, do them a favor and get a divorce before you
    start messing around.  
    
    
    Kymberly A. Raw

    Education can help prevent the spread of AIDS, but monogamy and
    abstanance [sic] can stop it!
    
    Slow it down, but not stop it -- intravenous drug use is another
    disease vector that doesn't involve sex at all.

    
    RE .20 -
    
    >Being attracted to other people is natural, it is what you do with the
    >attraction that makes all the difference in the world.  If you are
    >thinking about having an affair, take time to ask yourself why.  
    
    	Kymberly's advice would go a long way toward people's emotional
    and physical well-being, IHMO. Affairs happen basically because
    people dont bother to take the time to consider "what's happening
    here?" Where's the self-intervention, the system of check and balance
    most would call their "sanity" in the time just before an affair
    is initiated?
    
    	I spose it's easier just to "go for it", than it is to extend
    yourself (i.e. "work") to make it at least a conscious choice, with
    all factors - stuff like "kids" and/or "a human beings emotional pain" 
    - actually rigorously considered.
    
    	If one goes for it despite this effort being made, one has problems
    beyond the scope of sanity, IMHO. There are programs for that...
    
    	What one does with their attraction to another being is a very
    profound question. I believe there are two answers; one "healthy",
    another "unhealthy" - at any stage of this natural process. It's
    one's own responsibility what one chooses to do; manefest a healthy 
    behavior or not. I'm sure there are those who've rationalized they're
    having an affair because they're so healthy and virile or whatever.
    
    	Joe

 Reply .19


>Neil, I find your comments here to be moralizing and somewhat
>demeaning.

 Rich

 My statement was not meant to be demeaning in any way! And I did not intend
 my comment as a target towards you but rather as a choice someone could make
 to avoid the risk of contracting a life threatening Sexually Transmitted Disease
 which there are many and HIV "the virus attributed to AIDS" certainly is
 considered one.

 I personaly feel that moral values or lack thereof play a major part in a
 persons decisions making with regards to Affairs. Or for that matter any act
 against society. Alas I also realize that morality is something that our
 present society does not pay much attention to and certainly not with regards
 to sex unless it is a violent act upon an unwilling recipient.  

> I have experience in this area that surely you don't.

 I don't pretend to know everything about HIV and AIDS but I do know that HIV
 is transmitted in most cases through unprotected sexual activity whereby
 bodily fluids from an infected person enters anothers bloodstream. Now I
 understand that I.V. drug use and other less common ways of transmission exist
 however to my knowledge the most common way HIV is spread is through sexual
 relations.

 Neil....
 Neil...

    re .23,  I do not think that having an affair is an "act against
    society."  It might very well be seen as a personal betrayal of someone
    who had been promised fidelity, but I fail to see what business it
    would be of society in general.
    
    Also, I think a lot more than lack of morals causes most affairs.  Our
    society has always pushed people towards monogamous couple
    relationships and marriage, without ever giving people  time to ask
    themselves whether that is what they really want in life.  Some people
    don't even think that human beings are monogamous by nature, that it is
    an artifical condition that has been forced on people.  I'm not
    completely against monogamous relationships, but I do wish that some
    people would be more cautious in judging others.  People could become
    involved in affairs for any manner of reasons - loneliness, despair,
    boredom, a need to feel loved.  
    
    Lorna
    

 Reply .24

> I do not think that having an affair is an "act against
> society." 

 Lorna,

 I beg to differ!
 Any act performed by a person or persons that causes pain either physical
 or emotional or causes hardship to one or more people can certainly be
 considered an act against society. We are all part of society like it or not. 

> It might very well be seen as a personal betrayal of someone
> who had been promised fidelity, but I fail to see what business it
> would be of society in general.

 In actuallity in the State of New Hampshire addultry is illegal "although
 only a misdemeanor" a person can be charged and convicted if the evidence
 is there. Not much point in doing so though except to humiliate the offender. 
 
 Society has accepted addultry probably because of its frequency and like other
 misdemeanors which have become such common offenses that its not worth the time
 and effort to prosecute. Ie Speeding violations, Jaywalking, Littering etc.
 These crimes although considered minor offenses are like all crimes acts
 against society.

 How many people would like to see their cheating spouse charged and slapped
 with a $10,000.00 fine for each proven adulterous act. Hey maybe this is a
 good way to make some extra money for the Granite State ;^).

 Neil...

    re .25, well, we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.
    
    Lorna
    

>An act against any person/persons is an act against society

 This is just plain silly.

 Incarceration of a criminal is an act against that person, but it is absurd
to claim such an act is also against society. It is an act FOR society.
Attempts to oversimplify only obscure the issue.

 reply .27

> Incarceration of a criminal is an act against that person, but it is absurd
> to claim such an act is also against society. It is an act FOR society.
> Attempts to oversimplify only obscure the issue.
 

 HUH! I guess I don't quite understand what you're saying

> Attempts to oversimplify only obscure the issue.

 I didn't think I was oversimplifying but maybe I should have been more specific,
 and I don't see where I was obscureing the issue. So for clarity I'm entering
 some more specific information.

 Incarceration of a person is a disciplinary measure by the governing society's
 law enforcement in respones to a person breaking of the laws set forth by said
 society. An act performed against any person which is in voilation of the laws
 of a society of which this person is a member is a criminal act. I do recognize
 that Federal, State and local laws may differ and people are often members of
 multiple societies by choice or by default.
 
 However my viewpoint on this is that any act against any person in a society 
 which causes pain or hardship to another person is an act against that society.
 I'm sure others views may differ and I can respect that.

 Now back to the topic on Affairs!
 
 Neil...


American Heritage Dictionary 

 society 1 Human beings in general
         2 A group of people with a common culture or way of life
         3 A group of people who unite to share a common interest

    Seems to me that, in general, the reason any society comes up with
    rules against certain behaviors is because those behaviors tend to harm
    that society (or to be perceived as so doing). [Admittedly, modern-day
    U.S. society seems to spend a lot of time making up things to make
    rules about, but In The Beginning, I like to think, people had more
    practical reasons for defining "taboos" and suchlike.]
    
    We have plenty of practical examples of the effects of extra-marital
    affairs on society, even if they are all side effects. The affairs
    themselves may not do any harm to anyone other than those involved, but
    if they come to light they may lead to divorce (and possibly a societal
    need to help support the children and/or to litigate against one or
    both parents for child support or custody arrangements), or they may
    lead to violent crime; and even if these worst-case scenarios don't
    take place, a chronically stressful or depressing home life could wreak
    havoc in a community, depending on how significant the parties involved
    were to that community. [Would you feel comfortable knowing that your
    neurosurgeon's spouse had been playing around for years, and that the
    surgeon had only found out about it the day before you were scheduled
    to be operated on?]
    
    Now, none of these potential problems are due only to affairs, and not
    all affairs have such grim results; *and* it's quite possible that a
    "non-affair" - such as an unhappy marriage - could have all the same
    results as those triggered by an affair. But, in any case, I can see
    how a society would feel that it had an interest in how people
    conducted their private lives...
    
    This doesn't mean I think adultery should be a crime (though, these
    days, with the risk of bringing home a fatal illness, perhaps it should
    be).
    
    -b

re: .25
> Any act performed by a person or persons that causes pain either physical
> or emotional or causes hardship to one or more people can certainly be
> considered an act against society. We are all part of society like it or not. 
Neil,
     If what you were saying caused me some emotional distress would you stop 
saying it.

     I was reading "Crazy Time" a great book about divorce. It talks of the 
"marriage breaking affair" as being the act that gives a person the confidence 
to end a relationship. Many emotionally abused people feel so worthless that
they would not consider leaving their spouse until they find things could be 
better elsewhere. I think of affairs as a symptom of something deeper and not
as a crime.

     Maybe you could let your guard down a little and look at the this from 
another perspective.

	Peter.

    re .30, I agree with you.
    
    Lorna
    

Reply .25

>If what you were saying caused me some emotional distress would you stop 
>saying it.

 Yes!

> I was reading "Crazy Time" a great book about divorce. It talks of the 
>"marriage breaking affair" as being the act that gives a person the confidence 
>to end a relationship.

 Peter,

 I also read this book and although it talks of the "marriage breaking affair"
 as a way a person initiates a marrital breakup it does not condone it or
 recomend it. The book merely states why people use an affair to gain an
 end result. There are also cases where people kill their spouse to end a
 marriage and the reasons for this as well. Should we consider a person who
 offs their spouse an over-confident person?

>Many emotionally abused people feel so worthless that they would not consider
>leaving their spouse until they find things could be better elsewhere.

 Of course I understand that people sometimes do things under duress but two
 wrongs never make a right in my book. If someone is being abbused emotionally
 or physically this in itself is a wrong doing and if sepperation, divorce or
 annulment is warranted then there are legal things that can be done to insure
 this will happen.

>I think of affairs as a symptom of something deeper and not as a crime.

 Not all affairs are created equal! However in my view all affairs and I speak
 of an affair as an adulterous act performed by a married person, are WRONG
 regardless of the underlying reasons. As stated in another reply some states
 incluning New Hampshire addultry is a crime.

 Neil....
 

    I can't really bring anything more to this discussion.  It has
    disintegrated into what amounts to religious dogma, not an
    acknowledgment that people's relationships are between each other and
    not the rest of society.
    
    To me, the only values which matter in a relationship are those of
    Partner A and Partner B.
    
    We just plain disagree.  Fortunately there are many who feel as I do
    about this subject, even if they are not a majority.
    
    -rich
    Mass Storage Engineering OEM D&SG  SHR3-1/W7     DTN:  237-2124
    Work: braun@leds.enet.dec.com                      508-841-2124
    Home: richb@pioneer.ci.net

Reply .33

>It has disintegrated into what amounts to religious dogma, not an
>acknowledgment that people's relationships are between each other and
>not the rest of society.
>
>To me, the only values which matter in a relationship are those of
>Partner A and Partner B.

 Rich,

 I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on these also. I don't
 remember seeing any mention of religion in these notes. Unless you
 consider religion to be what is acceptable/nonacceptable by society in
 general. I think those who are members of a religious society have their
 own code of conduct which they choose to abide by and which may or may not
 be parralell to mainstream society's acceptance or regulations.
   
>We just plain disagree.  Fortunately there are many who feel as I do
>about this subject, even if they are not a majority.

 Yes this is true! I do respect your viewpoint although I do not fully
 understand the reasoning behind it.

 Neil...
  

    I think that we have gotton off the subject just a little bit.  In the end,
    it is the children that bare the scars of an affair.  They are the
    one's that are caught in the middle.  Not only is it
    confussing and embarrassing for them, but they don't get the choice of 
    leaving the person that caused the family to brake up. This is just
    another thing to think about.  Why have an affair?  Why not just get
    divorced.  If your answer is "because I still love my spouse"
    obviously you don't love them enough.
                                                                          

    re .35, my guess would be that children never learn of most of the
    "affairs" their parents may have had, and that most "affairs" never
    cause the marriage to break-up.  In fact, my guess is that most
    "affairs" are just that - "affairs" - that never affect the person's
    real life, family or major relationship.
    
    Lorna
    

 In some of the books I've read secrecy is the recomended method
 of dealing with the aftermath of an affair. The point being is
 "what they don't know won't hurt them". I personally have mixed feelings
 with this. Although by my previous notes its obvious that I don't condone
 an affair for any reason. If it happens and its over then keeping it to
 yourself since the less anyone knows about it the better may make sense.
 Just make damn sure you haven't contracted anything which could affect the
 health of your spouse. If the affair is ongoing and the person has no
 intention of ending it, this is where the problems arise. In this situation
 the marriage is at risk and children should not be left in the dark. It is
 up to the parent who is having the affair or causing a marital breakup to
 explain their reasoning for continuing this affair to their children and its
 not as simple as Daddy/Mommy don't love each other anymore. Saying this to
 a child causes distrust and insecurity in the child and love the parent has
 for the child becomes questionable by the child. "Will Mommy/Daddy not love
 me someday too?" Children are very forgiving people when the truth is explained
 to them. They may not fully understand and they may be hurt "especially if the
 affair leads to the end of the marriage" but they "in most cases" love their
 parent and will forgive them if the've been told the reason behind their parents
 behavior. Nothing hurts anyone more than lies and deciept especially when this
 behavior is from the parent of a young child.

 Neil...

    Reg .36
    I disagree with you 100%.  I would say that 90% of all afairs are
    brought to light some way or the other.  Also, if the marriage stays
    together after an affair, the one who was cheated on must not be smart
    enough to know that if they will do it once, they will do it again!
    My best friend married her childhood sweetheart.  After, a year and a
    half she got pregnant and the night she told her husband, he told her
    that he was in love with another woman.  Later, during his "great
    confession" he told her that this was his 3rd affair, and that the
    woman he was currently sleeping with had herpes.  That $#%@&$&* hole
    could have infected his wife and his unborn child.  My friend is still
    with her husband, but I hope it isn't for long!!!  If only I could have
    a small chat with him...(hahahahah)

>I would say that 90% of all afairs are brought to light some way or the other.

 I think you massively overestimate how often affairs are discovered/confessed
to. 

    re .38, your friend's husband sounds like a jerk, but I still think
    you're way off on your guess as to the percentage of affairs that are
    somehow brought to light, that is, if you include one night stands and
    briefer flings as affairs.  I think that people who think that 90% of
    all affairs are brought to light just don't know how much is going on
    out there.  
    
    Lorna
    

I find this topic interesting....

Is the definition here of an 'affair' only relationships that involve sex??
What about a relationship outside the marriage that doesnt involve sex, but an
affair of the mind?  If two people have confessed their attraction and have 
feelings beyond friendship for each
other and dont confess to their spouses, is that not an 'affair' as well???

    Yes, it's very interesting indeed.
    
    I'd be much more upset about this so-called 'affair of the mind' in
    a partner, than about mere sexual relations.  If we discussed things
    ahead of time, I'd probably consent to sex outside the primary
    relationship, but not to someone who spent a great deal of time with my
    partner in an intense platonic relationship.  Sex isn't much of a
    threat, but I'd feel threatened with potential loss if someone were
    getting along with my partner better than me.
    
    -rich
    Mass Storage Engineering OEM D&SG  SHR1-3/O13    DTN:  237-2124
    Work: braun@leds.enet.dec.com                      508-841-2124
    Home: richb@pioneer.ci.net

 Hmmmm, This is a very interesting scenario which lends itself to some
 deep thought. Personally I feel that the threat of an affair can cause
 just as much discomfort to the person threatened as the actual affair
 involving sex. However there is no way of avoiding/controlling what
 your spouse feels inside and their attraction to another. The BIG difference
 is when the attraction evolves to a physical relationship. Although I have
 heard of people who don't have a problem with their spouses having sex
 with another as long as its only physical. For example a wife allowing their
 husband to frequent a prostitute. I personally cannot understand this. I
 suppose there is something lacking in their intimate relationship somewhere.
 Anyway whatever the case an affair in my opinion is a circumstance that occurs
 where one person is emotionally hurt by their spouse due to some action performed
 with another person involving some intimate sexual relationship without the
 consent or in most cases knowledge of the other.

 Neil.... 

A few notes back someone mentionned 'healthy behavior' toward another person to 
whom you are attracted.  What might that be??
If you are attracted to another is it best left unsaid?  Does the honesty of
telling that person automatically set the relationship up to go further?

I guess this is the question, whats the best ways to avoid an affair??

:-)

The best way to avoid an affair is to take responsibility for your own
actions.  If you start saying "well, I just couldn't help it" or "my spouse
isn't meeting my needs", you're setting yourself up.

Honesty does not equate to "tell all", in all circumstances.  There are some
things better left unsaid.

				Steve

    
    	Steve's right. I've heard that making your feelings known to the
    other party in such circumstances is the first step toward trouble.
    
    	Joe

         What about the case where a long distance romance existed and you just 
    saw this person 2 or 3 times a year for about 7 years.   Their job
    involves lots of travel.  Therefore you're aware that this relationship 
    could never be serious.  You fall in love with someone in your city and
    you start talking marriage but all of a sudden your long distance lover 
    happens to move into your city.  What do you do? Your in love with the 
    2 of them. 
    
    The one your talking marriage with only thinks that this outsider is
    only a friend but the long distance lover is unaware of the local one.
    Mentionning your feelings to your future husband might destroy your
    relationship but yet your feeling for the other one go on unresolved.
    
    Can you avoid the affair?    
                                                     
      

You can always avoid the affair.  Whether you do or not depends on what your
personal sense of ethics is.  This notion, increasingly popular nowadays,
that one can disclaim responsibility for one's own actions because of some
outside influence (other than perhaps someone holding a gun to your head) is 
foreign and abhorrent to me.

				Steve

    
    I don't agree with your title that "some affairs are unavoidable",
    although the situation you described sounds like a classic case of
    "setting yourself up" (albeit probably without realizing it).
    
    How is this case really different from the one where the "outsider"
    has lived in the same city all along?  That is, other than that there 
    wasn't the possiblity that it could become serious, and that since 
    nobody in your city knew the other person, it was easy to keep the 
    definition of your relationship nebulous if you mentioned it at all.  
    Also, it was easy not to tell the outsider about the man in your life.
    
    In other words, you were the one that told your fiance that this
    person was a friend, rather than someone you'd had a casual
    long-distance relationship with, and you were also the one that has
    neglected (to date) to tell the outsider that there's someone else in 
    your life now.  (What were you were planning to do if you took a
    business trip to the other city after you got married?)
    
    I fail to see how this case is substantively different than having
    an SO at home and having an affair on a business trip, or any other 
    context where you expect that the two will "never find out" about each 
    other.  There's no rule that says that all romantic feelings for others 
    must be resolved.  If you're really unwilling to forsake all others, 
    I have to wonder why you'd want to get into a marriage where this is
    part of the ground rules.
    
    	Sharon
    

    	I agree emphatically with Steve.


    	I guess I don't understand how someone could be "in love" with two
    people at the same time.  Other folks seem to have experienced this
    phenomena, but I haven't.  Once I care about someone *that way*, there
    just isn't room for anyone else *that way*.  At any rate, once I'd met
    that person in my city and fallen in love, the other person would be
    relegated to friend.  That's how I would handle it anyway.  Come to
    think of it, I don't think I would even need to think about it; that
    circuit seems to activate automatically in my brain.


    	If by some chance I ended up in the situation that you describe, I
    would evaluate both relationships and choose the one that seemed the
    "best" for me.  I would think seriously about telling *both* parties;
    although one might never find out about the other, it's amazing how
    often they do.  Especially if they live in the same city.


    Brian

    Re: caring about more than one person at a time
    
    What if the case that you were married to someone and there were 
    voids in the marriage?  Would you automatically divorce? Or try to work
    on the voids?
    What if you were to meet someone that filled those voids. And what if
    you happen to fall for that person too?  What then?
    
    I can see how someone can love more than one person at a time.  I also
    can understand that it would potentially be very emotionally painful.
    
    Judy

        
>    What if the case that you were married to someone and there were 
>    voids in the marriage?  Would you automatically divorce? Or try to work
>    on the voids?


    	I assume you mean a "void of love".  I would try to work on them.
    I'm the type of person that tries to work on problems as soon as I
    recognize them as such.  I try to give a situation every possible
    chance to work out; for me, it's easier to leave if that becomes the
    only alternative, because at least I *know* that I gave it my best shot
    and there was nothing more I could do.  Problems never get solved by
    burying your head in the sand, and rarely do they fix themselves.  You
    gotta sit down and talk about what's going on with your partner.  The
    trouble is, of course, it takes both people to fix it.


>    What if you were to meet someone that filled those voids. And what if
>    you happen to fall for that person too?  What then?


    	As I said, I don't think that would happen with me.  I don't know
    for sure, but at least in the past when I've had problems in a
    relationship I'm concentrating so much on fixing it that I don't really
    give myself a chance to think of someone else.


    	For me, a classic case happened back in the early summer of '88.  I
    was dating someone, and at least from my end everything was going fine
    and I was very happy.  Unbeknownst to me, she was not happy, and wasn't
    communicating it nor even giving out any signals.  It turns out I
    "expressed too much" for her (it took me years to understand what she
    meant).  Anyway, I went to an eye doctor's appointment and the
    assistant there was very attractive, a lot of fun, and we had a great
    time.  In fact, she sorta hinted she was free for lunch, but I didn't
    even pick up on it.


    	It's too bad, because actually the way things turned out I'm sure
    she would have been much better for me than the person I was with at
    the time.  It was later that I figured out what was actually going on
    and what I'd missed out on.


    	Come to think of it, that's not such a good example because there
    was no void on my part at the time.  Okay, I remember a relationship a
    couple years back.  I really loved the person, but I could see it was
    not going to work due to outside factors.  Shortly before it officially
    ended, I met a few women that seemed interesting.  However, I never
    acted on it nor did I really even seriously consider it.  Even though
    the situation was not good, and was probably going to end, until it did
    end I was emotionally committed to that one person.  Sure, sometimes
    you miss out on things like that previous situation but all in all I
    feel it's the best way for me to be.  (The other thing is that I was
    not emotionally ready to be with anyone else anyway.)

    
>    I can see how someone can love more than one person at a time.  I also
>    can understand that it would potentially be very emotionally painful.


    	I wasn't trying to imply that I thought it was "wrong" or "bad".  I
    was simply stating that *I* can't figure out how someone could let it
    happen, because I'm so (I guess) different.  I make my choices for me
    and let others do the same.


    Brian    

    
    
       I read that almost half of married men cheat on their spouses. A
    third of the women cheated on thier husbands.  Most of the people
    interviewed said that it "just happened." 
       I think this is a load of bull. Nothing happens that you dont want
    to.  What makes people cheat on their mates?  Do you think the people
    are just not happy, or is there another reason? 
       Do you think something like that could "just happen" ?? Or is it
    just another cop-out? 
    
                                                *B*

    re .53, I think there are a million reasons, and that it is possible
    for it to just happen sometimes.
    
    Think about your comment "Nothing happens that you dont want to" for a
    minute.  Isn't that a bit of an exaggeration?  Things happen to people
    all the time that they don't want to have happen.  People get layed off
    their jobs, they get sick and die, they get killed in accidents.  And,
    sometimes they may wind-up having sex when they really didn't want to
    either.  If life and the world were as ordered as you seem to think it
    is, the planet wouldn't be in the mess it's in.
    
    I think, as far as cheating goes, that people should mind their own
    business, if all they want to do is judge others, and not truly
    understand what the actual reasons might be.  If you don't want to
    cheat on your spouse, fine, don't.  That's great, but don't presume to
    judge others.
    
    Lorna
    

Re: .53

I believe it's a cop-out - see my reply .45.  It doesn't "just happen" unless
you choose to let it happen.

					Steve

I can understand how it could just happen.  I believe that the consequences are
not thought out thoroughly by either party before deciding to go forward. If
they were then I believe that it wouldnt just happen.

Comments??  Judy

The trouble is that people DON'T think, and aren't willing to take
responsibility for their own actions.  Having an affair isn't quite like
tripping over a bump in the sidewalk.  The people who do these things are
ready with all sorts of rationalizations and excuses, none of which are
valid in my view.

				Steve

    
	re .54 -
    
    >People...sometimes...may wind-up having sex when they really didn't 
    >want to either.  If life and the world were as ordered as you seem to 
    >think it is, the planet wouldn't be in the mess it's in.
    
    	Oh come-on Lorna. Life and the world and what people do arent just
    a product of some random process, where whatever happens, happens.
    There's actually an accountability to it all, in us all. We each
    make a contribution toward healing or destroying the world - and the 
    others in it - through the moment to moment choices we make. Really?
    
    	So, someone with _just_ their "growing up in American society" 
    conditioning decides to take the fast-food route in dealing with a
    problem they're having in their relationship. Rather than going into
    the pain around what the problem really is, what can be done about it
    and how much work that would take. Big suprise...
    
    	You're right in that it's nothing to judge that some folks choose to 
    live their lives at a shallow, superficial level - because it's just a
    product of society's conditioning that we've all experienced. We _all_
    have it, with varying degrees. If someone is willing to waste their
    life by living one of "impurity" and "dull-mindedness" - that's their
    business.
    
    	However, when the effects of that choice - that of someone's
    refusal to even be accountable to what's happened to them along the
    way - starts impacting the space in *my* life; the people in it, the
    place where I live, it becomes my business if I so choose. At least,
    they might hear about it from me. _That_ is perfectly okay.
    
    	Drunk driver for example. It's none of my business that he -
    perhaps - so cant stand the part of himself which reminds him of his
    father, that he just finds it easier to live day to day in the dullness
    that the continual consumption of alcohol provides him. Now, if he's
    driving alongside me on 495; we're both going 65 mph and I have a
    carload of kids, I have an issue with this person's unwillingness to be
    accountable to his own life-experience. I dont buy "Oh it's too hard"
    or "It's not fair" or "I cant help myself".
    
    	In that case, I dont care what the reasons might be; I dont care
    how awful this guys father was to him or how many beatings he got. I
    could say "Well it's certainly a tradgedy that you had to experience
    what you did in growing up!" But for him to cause or effect a probability 
    of pain and/or abuse on another human being because he refuses to be 
    accountable to that?
    
    	I have the same feelings toward those who'd "cheat" on their
    spouses, rather than be accountable to whatever it is that allows them
    to do so.
    
    	You could substitute "beat" for "cheat" above, and the statement
    would be just as valid, as far as my feelings about it. Same thing -
    
    	Joe

>   Things happen to people
>    all the time that they don't want to have happen.  People get layed off
>    their jobs, they get sick and die, they get killed in accidents.  And,
>    sometimes they may wind-up having sex when they really didn't want to
>    either. 

Lorna...This comparison makes absolutely no sense to me, could you explain
the correlation? 

To me, the first three things you names are circumstances totally beyond
a person's control.  Having sex is totally a personal choice (unless it's 
rape) and I just can't see any correlation at all.

Thanks.

Kath

    
>       I read that almost half of married men cheat on their spouses. A
>    third of the women cheated on thier husbands.  Most of the people
>    interviewed said that it "just happened." 
>       I think this is a load of bull. Nothing happens that you dont want
>    to.  What makes people cheat on their mates?  Do you think the people
>    are just not happy, or is there another reason? 
>       Do you think something like that could "just happen" ?? Or is it
>    just another cop-out? 
    

    	I agree with you, Steve, and Joe -- it doesn't "just happen".
    Whether it be consciously or unconsciously, people make choices.
    Either way you should still be accountable.


    	All of Lorna's examples were examples of things that happen TO you,
    without your consent.  You have no choice in the matter.  But with
    this, you DO have a choice.  Always.  Exercise it.



    Brian

I have to agree with Steve, Brian, Joe, etc....

Having an affair....or simply having sex with another person while a person is
married is totally and completely a choice that person makes.  

It doesn't "just happen"...if someone tells you that, it's a line of BS, and 
it's a real clear indicator as to how much responsibility that person is 
willing to take in their life for their actions.

I'm 100% responsible for my actions, and I find no problem holding another 
person 100% responsible for theirs......nor do I have a problem with calling
them on it when they don't accept that responsibility.

A person can do whatever they want, of course...have an affair, not have an 
affair, whatever.....but if they are going to do it, they can't expect anyone
to give them a pity party when they try and absolve themselves of the 
consequences of their actions.

kath

    I don't understand the complexity written in this topic, let me ask a
    question here. What is the difference between giving somebody a
    handshake, or have sex with that person? Now, don't mis understand this
    question, i am not trying to be rude here, but challenge the reader to
    make a difference between a relation and sex with a person.
    I am happely married, and we both consider our relationship very tight.
    I feel emotionaly (still after 17 years of marriage) the same for my
    wive as when we met, and even more. But our relationship became
    stronger now because we know we can (without consequences) have sexual
    "affairs" outside our relationship. We are very open about this
    subject, and promised to each other to let each other know what and
    when we do. We allow each other to have "dreams" and to realize them,
    without damaging our relationship. 
    Maybe we in Europe (Netherlands) are more open about this subject??
    
    Believe us, its no big deal but its depending on the quality and
    strength and communication in your relationship.
    
    John.
      

re -1
>What is the difference between giving somebody a
>   handshake, or have sex with that person?

1) I'll shake hands with a guy.

2) I'll shake hand in public.

3) I know of no known case where AIDS has been 
caught shaking hands.

4) My wife never expressed any concern over who I 
shook hands with.

5) I think of sex as something special and associate it with
deep emotions.

By the way, I am European.

Peter.

Add:

6) You can't get pregnant by shaking hands.


There are some couples who don't consider sex with others to be "cheating";
if they really feel that way, that's fine.  But I would say that a majority
of married couples at least claimed to promise sexual monogamy.

Be that as it may, the actual "sex act" is not what's central to "affairs"
but rather a broken promise and disrespect of the feelings of your spouse.

					Steve

    
    	the difference is what the married couple in question think
    	the difference is. If it is open and agreed to by both
    	people that sex is just sex and there is nothing more
    	to it...then, that is their agreement.
    
    	If either person feels differently about it, then there is
    	a problem. You have a contract that works for you. If the
    	contract were that each person was monogamous emotionally
    	AND sexually, then an affair would entail making a *choice*
    	to violate that contract...to breaking that commitment. 
    	It's a choice. Decision process involved. 
    
    	dotty

    
    	Re .62 - John.
    
    >wive as when we met, and even more. But our relationship became
    >stronger now because we know we can (without consequences) have sexual
    >"affairs" outside our relationship. We are very open about this
    
    	Given that this is *all* out in the open, there's no problem in
    it. But your situation is presumably much different from the vast
    majority. In that, while one level of this is "simply rubbing two
    bodies together", another level of it involves the degree of dishonesty - 
    which is of profound importance in any couples relationship.
    
    	I mean if sex is as casual as you coming home, putting down your
    briefcase and calling out "Hey Honey - guess who I nailed this
    afternoon!" and that's perfectly okay with your spouse, it's something
    you've worked out as part of your relationship - I cant judge you, your
    relationship or that choice of action.
    
    	However, if it's something where "who" or "when" or "what" or any
    of that is being hidden or kept in secret from your spouse - that's
    where it crosses the line from being okay to being deceitful - that's
    where issues around dishonesty are going to start effecting things in
    your relationship.
    
    	I think that one reason why "most" couples are not as liberal as
    you are, is because of the ordinary difficulty people have around
    issues of dishonesty. I think it's quite ordinary for most people to
    feel a sense of 'dishonesty', should they go off and have some sexual 
    encounter that's extramarital. I know I would...and I know that feeling
    would arise in me spontaneously. I - er - wouldnt have to go looking
    for it.
    
    	I think most people would feel that - whether their spouse gave
    them the "OK" to do so or not. That you or your wife do not
    (apparently), that you've gotten past it, around it or though it
    somehow, is pretty extrordinary - in the sense that one's awareness of
    themselves being or having been "dishonest" in the area of sex is *such* 
    a heavy state of mind. Just as a feeling that ordinarily arises given
    that experience.
    
    	Joe

    
    There are fundamentally only two reasons I have
    ever found why I would never have sex outside of
    my marriage, and why I would counsel others the
    same in similar situations.
    
    1) People can get hurt.
    
    2) I could lose what I've got and want to keep.
    
    Aside from that, I don't very much respect for
    people who do have affairs.
    

    
    
      <---- 
    
      I have NO respect for them.
    
    
    
    
                                                Brian

	The following entry is being posted anonymously. You may contact the
author by mail, by sending your communication to me and I'll be glad to forward 
it on. Your message will be forwarded with your name attached, unless you 
request otherwise.

	Joe
				*	*	*



                   A romance that turned out to be an affair
                                     with a
                           positive ending (thus far)


     Until a few months ago, I was seeing a woman who was married.   I  had
     noticed  her  and  had  said to myself 'how come all the nice ones are
     taken?' She had pursued me last year until I finally set  a  trap  for
     her to see if she would admit to liking me.  She admitted her love for
     me last summer.  Because she was married, I told her that I would have
     nothing  to  do  with her until she told her husband that she wanted a
     divorce and at least started the process.

     She had convinced me that there were 'ireconcileable  differences'  in
     their  marriage.   Her  mother  had  told  her early on to 'go have an
     affair and get it out of your system.' I never thought for  once  that
     it  would  turn  out  to  be  just  an affair.  I would not do that to
     myself.  I was in it for the long haul, not an affair.  My now ex-wife
     (who  is never wrong, she told me so herself) had told me that I would
     eventually marry this woman, and my sister had told my mother the same
     (though my sister admits to being wrong at times).

     This woman called my bluff and told  her  husband  and  the  fireworks
     began.   Our relationship blossomed quickly.  Soon we were seeing each
     other every day,  sometimes  twice  a  day.   We  took  weekend  trips
     together and throughly enjoyed each others company and love.  For both
     of us, it was a new experience and something that had been pent up for
     a  long time, me 23 years of marriage, at that time divorcing, and for
     her after many years and starting a divorce.

     Seeing each other was not easy.  Her husband was into denial.  He  had
     to  have  known  (he  was advised by one of her close ex-friends) more
     than what was obvious.  Things got a  little  tense  on  a  couple  of
     ocassions,  but  all in all they were Ok from my end.  On her end, the
     tension was  quite  high  at  home.   She  was  seeing  an  individual
     counselor and together they we seeing a marriage councellor.  She said
     that she wanted to help him understand what had gone wrong and be able
     to  survive  after.  A virtual litany of issues came up about sex, his
     family etc.  He had had no idea that these things had bothered her  so
     much.

     Our love was filled  with  so  much  caring  and  romance.   We  would
     exchange  cards,  musical  tapes  and  gifts.   I  would  put together
     cassettes full of special love songs and sometimes  write  poetry  for
     her.

     She throughly enjoyed my hobby and all my friends associated with  it.
     She is a real beauty, inside and out.  A special person.

     At first her being 10 years younger and so  good  looking  made  me  a
     little  uncomfortable.   In  time  I  got  over  this  but I could see
     age/generational differences in some aspects of  our  lives.   In  the
     deepest  recesses  of  my  brain,  I  always thought that it would end
     though.  "If seems too good to be true..."

     Our love grew deeper and deeper, Each time I thought it  couldn't  get
     any better, it did!  We were so in love.

     Earlier this year, due to the  stress  of  seeing  me,  her  husband's
     (still  living  at  home)  sometimes  erretic behavior and feelings of
     guilt, she started to get a specialized series  of  medical  problems.
     The more stress, and sometimes the more she saw me, the more problems.
     We tried experiments of her not  seeing  me  for  a  weekend  and  the
     medical problems stayed away.

     As this year progressed, she became more concerned about  her  future.
     She  was  a  part  time  student working toward a profession.  She was
     concerned about her children and being in poverty.  She had come  from
     a  divorced  family when she was a teen.  Prior to that her family had
     been quite well off.

     A month ago, she met me one evening with her wedding ring on and  told
     me  that she had to give it one last try with her husband to make sure
     that she was doing the right thing.  I agreed with her and went so far
     as  to  suggest that she must sleep with him (she hadn't for 8 months)
     to see if that would be OK.  He had  somehow  humiliated  her  in  bed
     once,  I  don't  know  how though.  Sex with him was a turn off so she
     said.

     We drop to just talking.  This was to be for one month.  I told her  I
     would wait.

     She revised the estimate to 6 months.  I told her I could not  wait  6
     months  on  a maybe.  She accepted this.  I have started back into the
     singles mode.

     She has now decided that she will stay with him.   I  have  questioned
     her  on  this to make sure that this is what she really wants.  During
     the past few months she had thought or said the following:  (they  are
     moving into a different house in a while)


              She wished that she was moving into the new house with me

              She has had a morbid dream about her husband

              She picked up the single magazine when I told her that I  was
              going to meet someone in there to see if she could figure out
              who

              She picked up a book on sexual techniques that she is keeping
              hidden from her husband

              Stated that somethings are OK and calmer.  somethings are not
              as good as with me

              That something 'really bad' would now have to change at  home
              for                    her  to  consider  coming  back  to me
              again

              That she will love me forever

              That she still wants to be friends

              That I am her best friend


     I am at a loss.  She is the best thing that ever happened  to  me.   I
     truely  love  her like no one else before.  In talking with her, I get
     the distinct impression (also go this from one of  her  friends)  that
     she was settling for security and monetary comfort instead of love and
     true happiness.  Her husband probably figured  he  could  not  compete
     with  me  in  the  love  field, but he could walk all over me as far a
     income, present and future was concerned.  In some ways,  I  think  he
     bought her back.

     I need to get on with my life.  I would love to have her by  my  side.
     We  get  along  so  well together (and me with her children too.  They
     even ask her when we are going to xxx again with me [I  am  sure  that
     goes over real well..])

     I love her so that I want what is best for her.   If  being  with  her
     husband  is  really  best  for her than I can accept that and the hurt
     that I will go through.  Listening to  her,  and  thinking  about  the
     things  she  has said makes me think that she is doing this for safety
     and convience.  That really hurts.  I gave my all to this relationship
     and  so  did she.  If she settles for OK now, she will be back to this
     square at some time in the future when her children are older  and  it
     is  mostly her and him.  I don't want her to have that happen all over
     again.  I don't want to have this hurt and know that she is not  doing
     this  for  herself and her heart.  I have told her, and so have others
     that she must do it for herself, not for me, or her children,  or  her
     husband, or security.

     I wish them all the best and I  hope  she  will  be  happy  with  this
     decision  for  the rest of their lives.  I even went so far as to call
     him to arrange a meeting to try and make ammends  and  discuss  little
     things  that he might do to at least appear to be more loving.  I told
     him not to tell her because these things had to come from him, not me.
     He  didn't  listen  and  told  her.   I  wanted  to give them the best
     possible chance at this and he blew it.  I was not doing this  to  rub
     it  in  (I did not intend to discuss anything about our relationship).
     I really want what is best for her.  Oh well, his loss.

     They have the only deeply troubled marriage out of  about  10  that  I
     know  of  that  have  a  happy  ending...  Her husband should consider
     himself a very lucky man.  Not too many men get a second chance.  If I
     had been more forceful in pushing her towards the divorce early on, we
     would be at a different square now.

     I really believe that I am a better person for having  known  her  and
     she  for  having known me.  I just wish the love story had had a happy
     ending for me.  If it has a truely happy ending for her,  then  I  can
     live  with the loss and accept it.  I still want what is best for her.
     Isn't that what love is?

     She has convinced herself that  she  is  doing  the  right  thing  for
     herself.  After meeting her for a coffee the other night and talking I
     can sense otherwise.  She will be back here in some number  of  years.
     They  are moving to a different home soon and will have all the stress
     that goes along with that.  Her husband is working all kinds of OT  to
     carry  the  burden that buying a house w/o having sold the present one
     entails.  She is talking about getting multiple horses for the  family
     to  ride at their new 'farm'.  She is substituting things for love and
     I think she knows it.  She is just too scared I  guess  to  deal  with
     love, life and 'affairs' of the heart.

     I try never to say never.  If you had told me a year ago that I  would
     have done some of the things that I have done in the past 12 months, I
     would have called you crazy.  Never say never...

     I think after this I will say never again with someone who is not free
     to commit.

     Some people think that either she or I or both are bad for having done
     this.   Well everyone is entitled to their opinion.  All the time this
     was going on, I tried to advise her as best I could as to how  to  not
     hurt him as badly.  And maybe in some small way, him being angry at me
     prevented him from being more angry at his wife, making the chances of
     a split less certain.

     Time will tell.  We are still friends and  still  see  each  other  as
     friends  ocassionally  and  share what is going on in our lives and in
     town.

     I had recently given her the last cassette of love songs  that  I  had
     put  together  for  her.  It was unfinished.  I just duplicated what I
     had done already.  She remarked after hearing it as to  how  wonderful
     it  was  and  wherever did I get all of those wonderful songs.  I told
     her "they came from my heart..."

    <-  Did I miss the positive ending somewhere?  I don't THINK I read it
    as an ending at all!  I suppose my perspective is that since the
    woman returned to her husband, and is attempting a reconciliation with
    him, this might be a positive action, but this is a long way from an
    ending, IMO.  
    
    I'd like to get a REAL update in about 3 years.
    
    The cynic in me doesn't believe for a minute that with this history,
    these folks have a chance at a intimate or lasting marriage. 

    No, it does not have a happy ending or an ending at all... it
    perpetuates hurt on all parts... the husband (how awful he must feel,
    being "second course", the woman, sleeping with one or the other, the
    lover, being left out, neglected or just waiting "his turn" if she feels 
    like it... and the three of them hurting... and risking their lives in the
    process...(with this sleeping around business).  To add torment to
    missery, her mother really "behaved" unlike a mother and gave her the
    worst advice she could... "have an affair and get it off your
    system"... whow... the mother is treating her own daughter as a slut...
    
    It pains me that some of you could see this mess as a "possitive" ending
    who, wins here? I don't get it.
    (I must be missing something big time)
    
    Where is the happy ending to this "soap opera"?

	The following entry is being posted anonymously. You may contact the
author by mail, by sending your communication to me and I'll be glad to forward 
it on. Your message will be forwarded with your name attached, unless you 
request otherwise.

	Joe
				*	*	*


RE .71


>No, it does not have a happy ending or an ending at all... 

Well it depends upon you perspective, seriously. 

The husband got what he wanted; his wife back. I personally think the price
(read that $$) he paid and is paying is too high. He needs her and wants her
regardless of her past or faults. That is his choice. In the long run will it
be worth it? I don't happen to think so. That is just my opinion. Again she has
mentioned horses (plural). I saw them dancing at a function a month ago. During
a slow dance they were about an inch apart. That kind of tells me something.
His family history for longevity is not good. Maybe he will kill himself to
provide for her. He admitted that to someone I know that he was working all
kinds of hours to catch up on bills and provide for her and that was before the
new house. 


The woman:

She, like everybody else must live with herself. The fact that she could turn
off emotions so (relatively) easily is a surprise to me. But then I guess I
didn't really know her too well after all. She has made her bed so to speak. 

The other man:

I will survive, wiser and hopefully less foolish and more observant in the
future. I am no longer an alternative as far as I am concerned. I would 
not take her back at this point. The relationship has ended. The only thing
that I ever had found wrong with her was that she could spend money. Her choice
of his money over my love confirms that for me. I can only think of the 
Eagles song and lyrics from the mid '70's; Lying Eyes.


Others:

Their children will grow up in a 2 parent household. There may not be too much
affection shown between them to the children, I don't know. The mother, I 
never thought of her telling her daughter to be a 'slut' but I guess that 
is what she was saying.


Misc:

Yes, it was not planned that way, but it did turn into a "soap opera"

    Sexual affairs hurt both partners self-esteem and cause the trust part
    of the relationship to suffer. However, sexual affairs hidden from
    one's partner are deceptive and ,therefore, dishonest and destructive.
    Moreover, such affairs are usually to restricted by their secrecy.
    Honesty and rationality are the foundations of happiness, pleasure,
    love and a long relationship. My wife of 21 years and myself have to
    high opinions of each other and ourselves to risk such childish and
    destructive actions.
    
    ...Tom