Conference quark::human_relations

    Miss X?  :)
    
    Cut your loses.  You owe it to yourself to get on with *your* life.
    Obviously you've tried communicating with them, and it hasn't worked.
    Frankly, I don't see what more you can do, and why you should continue
    to let them inflict so much pain on you.
    
    Consider yourself fortunate that you have ONE parent who cares.  That's
    something I had to come to terms with, many years ago; there's no rule
    which says that you have to like your parents or vice versa.  It's
    more important to like yourself.
    
    Good luck, and a big Hug!!
    
    Joyce
    

Miss X,

I agree with Joyce.  You can't go on with your life always trying to 
please your parents or being the person they want you to be.  You have 
your own life to live - not theirs.

To me it sounds like they have a problem and need help.  For some reason 
they are taking out on you some form of guilt.  As long as you are 
unhappy (and they are the cause), they "feel" better.  

I'n not a psychiatrist or counselor so don't take what I say as "TRUTH", 
but these are my thoughts.

Do they have something to hide?

Dave
    

    	Hi Miss X. It seems to me that you have several 'situations'
	which will most likely require different tacts to negotiate.

	First, you must decide if *you* need stepdad+mom in your life
	as a key ingredient to your happiness. Cutting them out is a
	little extreme if you must re-connect down the road some time.
        It will also provide one more 'wrong decision' to be thrown
	back in your face if you do cut and then try to reestablish the
	relationship. If they die prematurely, would your decision
	to sever relations haunt you? You must really care about them,
	or they wouldn't have such an effect on you. 

	Secondly, you *can* have both stepdad+mom and dad+girlfriend,
	you don't have to choose between them. If you ever have kids,
	there will be the need to identify grandparents, aunts, etc.,
	to your child(ren). Can you avoid talking about personal parts
	of your life, and keep it light with your mom+stepdad, and
	enjoy the moral support stuff with your dad+girlfriend? If you
	don't seek approval from your stepdad, you won't be hurt when
	you get put down. 

	Next is the relationship with your sisters. They will have to 
	decide if they want contact with you to be easy or difficult.
	You, of course, will want to remain close to them, but it will
	be their decision. How do you think they will view your actions?
	Be very cautious if you speak to your sisters about this, or it 
	may become more fodder for your stepdad's cannon.

	The question is, *why* do you feel cutting the relationship out
	of your life would solve your problem? In other words, who needs
	who? If you need them as part of your happiness equation, then
	you must hang in there and persevere. Avoid situations where you
	will be hurt if they/he don't support you in something (i.e. don't
	tell them.) If you can be happy without them, then just use
	some creative avoidance; (call your sisters when your parents 
	aren't home, etc.). If things change, you can gradually come 
	around.

	If I were you, I wouldn't do anything that would be construed as 
	a declaration of a permanent state. You've already talked to them
	about this, you know the results, so just coast for a while. Don't
	seek their approval, or even their acceptance, of things which
	have been a source of pain for you. Get that nurturing and support
	from your dad+girlfriend.
 
Good luck and best regards,

/Bob

    A close friend of mine had a tragedy about 3-1/2 years ago--the loss of
    his long-time lover to AIDS.
    
    His parents reacted to this situation in much the same way Miss X
    reports:  they simply didn't acknowledge the importance of this person
    hin his life.  He pointed out to them how they'd react if one of their
    other sons had suddenly become widowed, but they thought that situation
    would be completely different.
    
    How did he handle it?  He cut his parents out of his life for three
    years, until he could get to a better position in his own life.
    
    Three or four months ago, he called his father (with whom he'd had the
    most trouble) after talking to me and a couple of his other friends to
    get up the courage.  The confrontation went really well, to the point
    that his parents flew out to visit him for a week not long after.  He's
    gradually rebuilding a relationship with them, in which they are
    finally recognizing his status as an adult instead of the "inferior"
    child they once knew.  (By any measure, he's become a fine man, with a
    terrific career at one of Digital's major corporate allies, an MIT
    diploma, significant wealth, and a long track record of civic involvement.)
    
    Now, if I could only get my *own* father back into my life.  After
    confronting him over the ACOA issue three years ago, during which we
    wrote back and forth a few times, we stopped all contact and I don't
    even have his address since his move.
    
    Time is all we have, when you get right down to it, and I don't even
    know my half-sisters (they are about to enter their teens).  Kinda
    crummy.  I hate to waste so many years on a silly situation like this.
    
    If you do decide to cut your parents out, remember that each morning
    brings a new day.  Someday perhaps it'll be appropriate to bring them
    back into your life.
    
    -rich
    Mass Storage Engineering  SHR3-1/W7     DTN:  237-2124
    braun@leds.enet.dec.com                   508-841-2124

    I got out of the family dynamics a long time ago. I do visit once in a 
    'great' while. I will not stay for any more than 3 days. (They live
    about 1200 miles away) I went through a period when I would hang up on
    my mother if she started in on me. Very simple..I didn't take it any
    longer. We have a good relationship now. You don't have to necessarily
    'sever' contact. Just live your life - get to know your real father.
    You may be carrying some emotional baggage having to do with you step
    father and your father. Take some time to work through this without
    them. Clear your own emotions and then get on with your life. You
    ARE an adult now and can make your own decisions. Let them know that.
    

    
>    If you had a pair of incredibly insensitive "parents" (one of them
>    being a step-father), who had the ability to reduce you popping away
>    from your desk to the loo for a quiet cry now and then, and can make 
>    you feel totally worthless and as if everything you do is a waste of 
>    time, would you cut them out of your life completely?  


    	I could be wrong here, but this "cut them out of your life" idea
    strikes me as a knee-jerk reaction.  It's been my experience that knee
    -jerk reactions often come back to bite me.  Therefore, think carefully
    and long about what you want/need from your parents.  You may very well
    find that simply cutting down the amount of time you spend with them
    will suffice.


    	When you talk with them and they start saying things to make you
    feel badly, do you stand up to them?  Explain to them what they're
    doing and how it affects you?  It may be that you can modify their
    behavior a bit by doing this.  Tell them the incredibly detrimental
    affects it has on you, and that should it continue you'll be forced to
    spend less time with them.


    	Also realize that you own a part of this; that even though they may
    say things that hurt you, they will only hurt if you *let* them.
    Naturally, coming from a family member that you feel you "should" love
    this gives them -- on the surface -- more power, but you also have the
    power to minimize their affect on you.  When they say these things,
    consider the source and remind yourself it's not true.  However, I
    agree with you in that if I find someone makes a habit out of something
    like this I tend to not spend much time with them.  Power also resides
    in your choices, and you can choose with whom you will spend your time.

    
>    I drive to see them (100+ miles) and they carry on with their lives 
>    as if I wasn't there.  *But* if I go and visit my natural father 
>    (who lives about 10 miles from them) then they get all tetchy - 
>    my mother will say horrible things about him too.  My natural father 
>    and his girlfriend have all the time in the world for me - they 
>    take a healthy interest in what matters to me and will always make
>    me feel welcome.  


    	Have you tried pointing out how they tend to ignore you when you're
    there, but that if you visit your father they get all bent out of
    shape?  This strikes me as indicative of someone who is jealous or
    insecure about something.

    
>    The reason for this note is that we haven't had much contact for a 
>    while, but recently I've had a big "discussion" (very heated!!) with 
>    my stepdad, on the phone.  


    	It would probably help to know something more about this
    discussion, as it seems to be the catalyst that set all this in motion.
    Whatever you're comfortable sharing, of course.

    
>    Now, the kind of people I hang around now *do* care about
>    what happens to me and is going on - so when confronted with their
>    "you can't do anything right" and totally indifferent attitude, I'm 
>    shocked to find that even though things are going really well for me, 
>    and all my hard work is paying off and I had all the confidence in 
>    the world a few days ago, I'm now feeling as if I'm a total loser!


    	It's good that you recognize this behavior in yourself.  Now you
    have to ask yourself WHY you allow it to happen.  You are the only one
    who can really effect change in your own life.

    
>    I've tried going home and sitting them down and telling them how I 
>    feel - that was about two years ago - and it has obviously gone in 
>    one ear and out of the other, along with everything else I ever
>    say.....


    	It sounds as if this has been going on for some time, so it's
    probably not reasonable to expect people to change -- even if they want
    to -- after just one talk.  This is why I suggest you to stand up for
    yourself WHILE IT'S HAPPENING.  Context makes a world of difference in
    these kinds of things, rather than waiting awhile and then talking
    about it.  In any case, I suggest you couch it as, "When you said/did
    <action>, it made me feel <response>"  People can argue over lots of
    things but feelings shouldn't be one of them.

    
>    I've come to terms with the fact that they refuse to let go of the
>    image that I'm awful, and I know they are wrong, but telling them 
>    to get lost and stay out of my life forever is a big step to take.
    

    	I think long term it would be hard to cut them out forever,
    completely.  As I mentioned before I would start with cutting down the
    time -- letting them know WHY -- and see how that goes.  If you end up
    feeling you must cut them out completely, it's better to do it in
    stages than with a single, dramatic ultimatum.  How often have we
    regretted utlimatums we've made in our lives?


    	Best of luck,



    Brian

    Miss X:
    
    Speaking as someone who hasn't seen her parent's in a few years (except
    one funeral), I can understand where you're coming from. If you are
    getting no support or comfort from your visits and contact from your
    parents, why bother with them? 

    I'm sure there are many psyco-babble reasons for keeping in contact,
    but like you, I felt I was not wanted there, and if I didn't call or
    drop buy neither of them would care. Now I don't even worry about 
    what their problem with me is/was. 

    If your sisters are still living at home, you can invite them to your
    place, call them or send letters. Hopefully their privacy will be
    respected. I don't think severing your ties from your parents means you
    have to sever the ties with any family members you'd like to be in
    touch with. 

    My parents didn't bother to come to my wedding but all of my aunts &
    uncles did. I thought that was a great gesture and felt warmly
    supported. Reach out to the family that shows their love for you. No
    one needs to live with the grief.
    
    Do what you need to do. If they reach out to you after a while, all the
    better, if they don't no great loss.
    
    Gail
    

    I recently read a book called "Dance of Anger" which provided a 
    different slant on problems between parents/family members.  The book 
    is broken down into case studies, and then each is discussed. The
    Authors basic message is that each of you plays a role in the anger, 
    that it is a pattern (dance) and that both parties must participate 
    (even if Unknowingly) for it to continue.  It also suggests that if
    one of the parties involved breaks out of the pattern and tries a 
    different approach, the other party will feel threatened by the
    change, making them even more difficult to deal with initially.  The
    base noter might find this book to be food for thought.
    
    BB

    re:.0
    
    I would never ever disown or sever all contact with a blood relative,
    for any reason, except maybe if they tried to kill me.
    
    The fact is, when the chips are down, when you really need them, they
    are the best, most trustworthy, most reliable people in the world.
    
    They're my relatives, for better or for worse, for life.

    
    
    	Mike,
    
    	Maybe *your* parents are like that, and I know mine are but
    	from what I read in the base note, *her* parents aren't.
    	If my parents constantly put me down, didn't show an interest
    	in my life, didn't care if I was around or not, I think I'd
    	sever the ties too.  I couldn't handle the pain.
    
    	JJ
    

re :   <<< Note 33.9 by HDLITE::ZARLENGA "Michael Zarlenga, Alpha P/PEG" >>>

>    I would never ever disown or sever all contact with a blood relative,
>    for any reason, except maybe if they tried to kill me.
>    
>    The fact is, when the chips are down, when you really need them, they
>    are the best, most trustworthy, most reliable people in the world.
>    
>    They're my relatives, for better or for worse, for life.

     Ya, they're my relatives too, for better or for worse, but when the
     chips are down and they AREN'T there, you learn to NOT rely on them...
     I'm glad, Mike, that this is how you feel about your relatives, but
     it ain't the case for everyone...............

     To the basenoter, I'm sorry about how things are with your mom/stepdad -
     I wish I had advice to give you to help, but it's hard since I lost both
     my parents.......I can only say that there was a period for a while when
     my dad and I were on the outs - I backed off for a while (it was actually
     then that I moved out of the house and into a place of my own) and just
     kept things "superficial" for a while - once I felt better about me and
     what I was able to accomplish, we started talking again and things were
     MUCH improved before he died..........can't say as it would be the same
     with you, but maybe if you keep a cursory level of interaction (hi, how
     are you, just stopped by to say hello") with your mom/stepdad, it would
     keep the window open for something more later..........

     FWIW,
     Debbi

.10> If my parents constantly put me down, didn't show an interest
.10> in my life, didn't care if I was around or not, I think I'd
.10> sever the ties too.  I couldn't handle the pain.
    
    Judy, Both my father and mother offered unsolicited and biting criti-
    cism to me as I was growing up.  We weren't the Cleaver's by any stretch
    of the imagination.
    
    But I know they were only looking out for me and they had my best in-
    terests at heart ... besides, if your own parents can't offer criticism,
    WHO CAN?
    
    One more thing, it may SEEM to some people like their parents are
    always putting them down, but lots of times, people look at their
    parents through filters - they ignore the niceties - the invitaion to
    dinner, the Saturday phone call to see how everything's going, the
    offer for help around the house - and they focus on the criticism -
    "Why are you doing it THAT way?", "Why haven't you called?"
    
    People are funny that way.
    
    My brother would borrow money from my parents, and then get upset when
    they'd ask him how much he was making and what his bills were. He had
    no tolerance for them, or their questions, yet, if he had to go to a
    Bank for money, he'd answer those questions and more, as cordially as
    possible.

    re;.11
    
    Hey, Debbi, I never said my opinion was universal.  Capisci?

RE:     <<< Note 33.13 by HDLITE::ZARLENGA "Michael Zarlenga, MRO AXP BPDA" >>>
>
>    re;.11
>    
>    Hey, Debbi, I never said my opinion was universal.  Capisci?

   Mike, I reread Debbi's note, and she never said that you said your opinion
   was universal. She was simply disagreeing with your opinion. You're not the
   only one who can do that, are you?

   - Jim

    Debbi, in essence, said my opinion wasn't valid for everyone, I replied
    that I never thought it was.
    
    You have a problem with that?

    re .9 and .12
    
    I'm fed up of feeling such a deep sadness that my parents don't 
    value a relationship with me.  It has taken me years to accept 
    that however much I try, whatever I do, they have problems that 
    make them refuse to accept me as a nice person.  I am the 
    "remains" of a failed teenage marriage, and I am very much like
    my real father too.  It is hard to face up to the fact that 
    even though families are supposed to be happy and look out for 
    each other, some just don't work like that.  It may be so for 
    lots of families, but when you face up to what is *real*, and 
    in my case that meant shattering the illusion that I had a nice 
    family, it's like having the earth pulled from under your feet.  
    
    There is healthy criticism, and there is definitely unhealthy 
    criticism.  FWIW, here is an example of the latter:  I went home 
    one Xmas, about 3 years ago; I left my hometown 3 months before, 
    was finding it lonely and was depressed.  My stepfather sat down 
    and ....... had a go at me and told me that I'd really messed up 
    my life.  I said I didn't think so, and he said I must have 
    because I was miserable.  I pointed out all the successes I'd had 
    so far - which he simply dismissed as "being in the right place at 
    the right time" and, I felt, implied that I didn't deserve any of 
    them.  I told him the plans I had, which he scoffed at.  I told 
    my mother about this conversation and she just agreed with him.  
    She said they didn't want me around if I'm going to be miserable.
    
    I don't spend Xmas with them anymore.....
    
    That is one example of hundreds I could dig up.  I am *not* 
    imagining it, I am *not* seeing my parents through a nasty filter.  
    Why else would I feel so deeply saddened by the way they treat me?
    
    BTW, when things were getting me down about a year ago, I hopped 
    on a train and had a good old mope and a moan round my real dad + 
    girlfriends'.  They sat me down, offered advice and encouragement, 
    made me feel really welcome, and sent me off feeling really 
    positive and cared-about.  This somehow got back to my mother, and 
    boy!, did I get GBH of the earholes down the phone about that!!  I 
    pointed out that she had said, to my face, that they didn't want me
    around if I was going to be miserable - that weekend I was one 
    very miserable person, so I didn't inflict my miserable self upon 
    them!  She blocked me out when I tried to point this out!
    
    I have decided that I *am* going to cut them out of my life, for 
    at least the next year.  I have some pretty major stuff going on 
    over the next 11 months that I don't want to get side-tracked from.  
    My friends (ie my surrogate "family"!!) who want to help me along 
    and/or be helped along by me (cos I get a buzz out of helping other 
    people out too!) can stick around - people who want to knock me down 
    when I'm doing well just just go and......  ;o)
    
    It hasn't been an easy decision to make, but contacts in and through 
    this have helped no end!  I am going to tell them I want no contact 
    until further notice, but it will be at least for a year.  I think I 
    will also suggest that during that time they consider the idea that 
    they may have contributed to the making of a wonderful, funny, 
    intelligent, resourceful, affectionate and smart woman, rather than 
    the stupid, irresponsible waster I feel that I am treated as by them!
    
    Thankyou
    
    Miss X (??)
    

    Miss X,
    
    I suggest you read _The_Gentle_Art_of_Verbal_Self-Defense_ by Dr. S.H.
    Elgin, and even its sequel, _More_on_the_Gentle_Art_of_Verbal_
    _Self-Defense_.  They are a pleasure to read (as one would hope a
    linguist and novelist could produce), and may say a few things that
    you can apply.  This is a soft suggestion; you can live without
    it, but checking one out of your public library could be useful.
    
    						Ann B.

    
    	Miss X,
    
    	It sounds to me that you've made a healthy decision for yourself,
    going on your gut feeling about the situation. Hooray for you; you're
    trully distinguished!
    
    	To me, the lack of love that was shown by your parents - by 
    their specific actions - was far more powerful then any "blood tie"
    or branch in a family tree. It was so refreshing to see you dispatch
    that whole notion (which so many hold as the most sacred thing in the
    universe...) for the sake of your own emotional health and well being!
    
    	I'm glad to read that you had contact with your real father
    and his girlfriend, to offer *such a contrast* - by their actions
    - to what you get by your real parents. Not everyone gets such a
    profound opportunity for revelation of the truth; what's really
    happening.
    
    	Your choice just makes me want to say "Hooray!" (I appluad
    when victims of abusive parents take definitive action for their
    own sake and benefit - like when children sue their parents for
    "divorce" and win based on specific facts presented in the case.)
    
    	Joe
    
    
    	

    You are not alone dealing with nutty parents. I am going through a very
    similar situation right now, having "fired" my parents from any
    decision-making about my upcoming wedding. It became a major control
    issue since whomever was *paying* for the product or service got final
    say on it. This, to me, was the biggest sign that I was still perceived
    as their little girl and could not make an adult decision on my own
    ("how do you KNOW the photographer is any good? I want to interview
    them myself").
    
    This sort of control/not letting the baby of the family grow up issue
    has been around for years in our relationship. Up until now I have
    always compromised. But for the first time in my life I'm standing up
    for myself. This takes an enormous amount of self-confidence and belief
    in yourself (and lots and lots of positive reinforcement).
    
    If it means trading a traditional family environment (spending major
    birthdays, holidays etc together) for peace of mind, then I say go for
    the peace of mind. I have no idea if I will resume my relationship with
    my parents, and really resent when people say to me, "oh, you'll make
    up with them, they won't miss this day in your life," or "why not just
    give in, just this once, and then once you are married they'll leave
    you alone" however, I have already decided in my mind who would be my
    "honorary" parents for the day..close friends who genuinely want to be
    there without strings attached...emotional, monetary, physical.
    
    This is really, really, really hard to do. From past noters I can sense
    they have not really experienced this kind of distorted family love.
    But as an adult YOU have to start deciding what is right for YOU and
    eventually YOUR family, YOUR spouse, YOUR children. 
    
    Writing letters, using an intermediary doesn't work. Space between
    visits or visits that are temporary (stay in a hotel when you visit)
    and always in the company of others helps ease the tension. But I don't
    think it will ever be totally resolved and I don't think you should
    expect it to happen. If it did, you and I wouldn't be writing in this
    note. Good luck, contact me if you want to talk more.

    More praise for making a decision to take care of your own emotional
    needs. I too lived with a parent who could find no 'right' in my life.
    I put distance....no casual dropins questioning everything....and
    time....total number of days visiting was 5 and I don't stay with
    them. Realizing that I would never measure up to their expectations
    but I did measure up to my own expectations....and my expectations
    were good ....freed me from them. What they said lost all significance
    and it became their loss for not seeing me as I truly am. I have
    managed a cordial relationship but at the first hint of past behaviour
    I extract myself from the situation. I do not have to listen and I
    chose not to listen. It's great! I maintain close contact with the
    rest of my family which is enough for me. Good luck to you.
    
    Paula

    One can distance oneself without severing all contact.