Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Well, from what you've said, he spent a period of his life trying to 
    become 'socially aware' and fialed miserably at it.  
    
    My own experience shows ME that 'control' in a relationship is reached 
    via mutual undrstanding and communication.  NOT having a kid.  Children
    become one more 'item' on a list of 'how do WE do it'.  
    
    His problem however, is that his Ex has used his daughters to
    manipulate him.  I've had my Ex do the same thing.  After the 20th or 
    so time, I finally found the money to get a lawyer and get my rights 
    as a father covered in more 'well defined' terms.  Including my rights 
    when I fail in child support, (only happend two times) or a payment is 
    late (several times).  When I can talk to him via the phone, what
    exactly she has to provide for him.  What she can and can not say about 
    me.  How increases in child support are to be determined (all increases 
    and decreases of child support in my situation are based on my wages
    and any increase there of... that is if I get a 6 percent raise, then
    my child support goes up 6 percent also.  If I get a 10 percent
    decrease then my child support goes down 10 percent... If I end up 
    unemployed, I pay the appropriate percentage of my unemployment for 
    child support... etc.  It works well for me.) 
    
    Ours was not a typical divorce, there was no ranting or raving save for 
    the day of the break up.  Then we concluded that going back was
    senseless because there were too many problems in the relationship, we 
    gave counseling a try, it didn't work, we divorced.  We maintain some 
    communication, although we both have our 'moments' when we think
    personal feelings are getting into our judgement about situations.  We 
    ARE careful of that and speak frankly when we think this situation is 
    developing.  
    
    Anyhow... he's got a definate problem with thinking like this.  His 
    attitude is way out of line and based on what appears to be souly
    personal experience, from a bad marriage.  And he doesn't seem to be 
    giving you a fair chance.  I would look into the possibility that he 
    may not really want any more children.  It seems strange that he's 
    been having a lot of 'excuses' for not having children.  From financal
    problems to personal beliefs.... (There is no such thing as being 
    financially 'ready' for a child... if you are, things happen you don't 
    expect.  IF you aren't you manage to find a way to survive the needs 
    and events that happen that you don't expect.)
    
    One other thing, there is the possibility that he's 'selfish' in that 
    he has a lifestyle that he likes now, and having a child fit into it 
    means, he has to give up things he doesn't want to.  (I've known this 
    to happen on more then one occasion).
    
    FWIW
    Skip

    
    
    I think he needs to stop blaming people for his miserable time
    in life.  Only he can be responsible for his actions.  If he
    allowed his ex to treat him poorly, then he allowed it.  He
    needs to grow up and face his responsiblity in life.  
    
    Do you believe that having a child with this man would be
    the best thing for the child?  I would seriously ponder
    this question before you make a decision.  Granted he has
    been burned once before with respect to his kids and I can
    easily see how that would make him not want to even have
    that possiblity exist again.  However, please do what would
    be best for the potential child.
    
    Michele

    Ummmm if it's 'Not about us' then the extremly long amount of
    background information isn't necessary.
    
    But since you asked, I think the outlook is a bit chauvanistic.  Women
    are not 'natrual' nags.  They ARE different from men, and have a
    different prospective on things then we males have, but that's about
    the total extent of it.  The only thing necessary is an honest effort 
    on BOTH parts to try and communicate effectively.  That is, for every 
    man who can make such complaints I can find a woman who can state 
    
    "Men have no emotions, no sense of responsiblity, they're nothing but 
    overgrown children and that's all they well ever be.  They have no 
    concept of 'security' and don't care one bit about how they treat us 
    females so long as they get thier pleasure from us, and as soon as they 
    get it, or are refused it, they move on to the next 'toy'."
    
    
    Basically what it all amounts to is a load of 'cracked thinking' and 
    ignorance about the workings of the male and female minds.  
    
    Skip

My apologies for this note coming and going a few times.  I've moved replies
from the earlier entry and I think that it's now ok.

			Steve

    	Since I can't speak for other men, and since I've never been
    divorced, I'm afraid I will have to limit my response to what you've
    talked about here.


    	My impression is that your husband is scarred from the experience
    of his ex-wife; this is to be expected and natural.  However, it's my
    feeling that the extent to which he lets that experience rule his
    current life is *not* natural.  At least, not healthy.


    	I do not believe that women have an innate need to control men; I
    think this is *person*-based, not *gender*-based.  That is, different
    people based on their experiences may have this need but that it is not
    simply found in one gender or the other.


    	I can see why you feel offended, but I would try to limit those
    feelings.  Remember the saying, "Once bitten twice shy"?  It's pretty
    clear that it's nothing to do with you, but just a result of his
    baggage.  I think it's possible for you to convince your husband
    otherwise, but don't expect it to happen overnight.  Remind him you're
    not his ex-wife, but a totally different person.  And most importantly
    *show* him you're not like her.



    Brian