Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    I HAVE TRIED IN THE PAST TO BE TOO NICE BUT IT NEVER SEEMS TO WORK
    OUT. I USUALLY END UP BEING A *BITCH*. WELL YOU AREN'T THE ONLY
    ONE WHO IS TOO NICE. I ONCE DATED A GUY THAT WAS TOO NICE TO ME.
    I JUST COULDN'T TAKE HIS NICENESS ANYMORE.IT SEEMED FAKE OR UNNATURAL.
    I WONDER IF WE REACT TO GUYS BEING TOO NICE THE SAME WAY THEY REACT
    TO US BEING TOO NICE.
    
                                          -LAUIRE "JUST A CO-OP"

    I don't think you're being too nice; I think you're finding
    the wrong men.

    I'm surprised you omitted Abby's response.  I agree with it, and
    here it is:
    
    	Dear Me No. 2: My Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary
    	defines "bitch" as a "malicious, spiteful, domineering
    	woman."  If there are any educational programs for "bitchery,"
    	I've never heard of them, and if there were, I would not
    	recommend them.
    
    	People who use and abuse others and have no desire to attain
    	maturity are both unattractive and miserable.  The same goes
    	for phonies who nag and try to gain sympathy through tears
    	and feminine ploys.
    
    	The old saw, "Nice guys finish last," is not true - and the
    	same can be said of nice girls.
    
    
    There are times I have felt as you have - where I was nice, honest,
    giving and caring in a relationship only to be "stabbed in the back".
    But I realized that by giving in to that emotion I would be the
    ultimate loser.  Instead I kept my head held up high, and went on
    with my life.  It's happened more than once.  But I refuse to give
    up - or give in.  You should do the same.
    
    				Steve

    I am not sure if it is any comfort to know that you are not alone.
    I have the same problem when I find someone that I care for.  It
    seems that their needs are more important (to me) than my own. 
    I seldom ask for anything, always willing to give love and more
    love.  I always thought this was one of my greatest assets, but
    realize today that I am only depriving myself.
    
    I had someone point out to me that I don't look to meet my needs,
    I only work at my SO's needs.  And it was made clear to me that
    I had to take care of #1 - and #1 is ME!  I never considered myself
    as #1.  I never stopped and asked for what I needed.  And when the
    relationships end, and I can't understand because I gave everything,
    I feel cheated.  Like I was too nice.  
    
    But what actually went wrong was the fact that I never met any of
    my needs.  I never identified to my SO that I *wanted*  *needed*
    love too.
    
    I read a book just a while back.  It helped me understand my role
    in relationships a little bit better, but I am not sure if I liked
    what I found out.  Needless, it did identify this type of behavior.
    If you would like a professional opinion, the book is called:
    
    Women Who Love Too Much.
    
    .2 touched upon a topic in the book - picking the wrong guys.  You
    may be surprised to hear some of the data that is discussed.  I
    was amazed how much sense it made.
    
    As far as learning how to be a bitch, hang it up.  It obviously
    is not in your character.  And it would be too much work for you
    to carry out.  Just be you, and remember that when you have needs
    in a relationship, let your partner know!  You DESERVE to receive
    love also!  
                

    I have been working on a reply to this for the past fifteen minutes,
    and deleting each version of it -- and .4 got their response in
    first.  I think that s/he summed it up perfectly.
    
    Really nice people are so rare; those who care a lot and have so
    much to give don't seem to exist much anymore.  Maybe because they
    feel the same way you do.  Trying to learn to not care, love, feel
    etc. would be a horrible loss, to you and to everyone else.  Finding
    someone who appreciates it *and* can reciprocate is tough, but when
    it happens -- wow!
    
    I do think that you can be too nice, though.  I've seen instances
    where only one person in a relationship really worked at keeping
    it going: paying much more than her/his own way, rearranging their
    schedule only to have the other person cancel out at the last minute
    (or worse, just not show up).  One of them gave out all of the love,
    the other just hung on for the ride since it was convenient.  And
    as long as it was kept convenient, there was absolutely no reason
    for them to change.
    
    It's a very difficult situation, because the person who is
    considered to be incredibly giving also tends to be insecure (this
    is a gross generalization, I know).  So, even when things aren't
    going so well you think, "Well, maybe its me" or "I'm just not trying
    hard enough, that's all."  If that's the case, then .4 hit the nail
    on the head again -- think about yourself as well as the other person.

I don't think the problem is being too nice.

I think that as long as you:

1: Be as nice to yourself as you are to anyone else.  You deserve it just
   as much as anyone else, and being nice to yourself evables you to continue
   being nice to other people.

2: Don't take any sh!t from anyone else.  Contrary to somewhat popular belief,
   letting someone walk all over you doesn't do you, or them any good; it
   is not part of 'being nice' to people.  If anything, being nice to people
   who walk all over you requires you telling them point blank where you
   stand, where they stans with you, and what you will put up with, and what
   you will not put up with clearly.

... you will not have to worry about being 'too nice'.

Jim.

    
    RE: .6        Right!
                   
    And to define a little further how to be nice to yourself (maybe
    you haven't had much practice at this recently.......):-
    
    1) You are the most important person in your life. This is *not*
       selfish - you have to be as happy/fulfilled/joyouse about
       yourself as possible to be any real use to anyone else.
    
    2) You are the only person whose happiness you are wholly responsible
       for. And investing in yourself is the only investment that you
       can be 100% *sure* will never be wasted.
    
    3) So look to yourself. What do you enjoy doing? What would you
       like to learn, visit, improve, campaign for, exercise?
    
    4) Get into those activities. And if another person comes on the
       scene, keep *on* with those activities. This will inevitably
       cause the occasional clash ("I want you to cook dinner for us
       tonight" "Sorry, but I go to aerobics on Wednesdays"). This is
       good and healthy.
    
    The practical upshot of this plan is:
    If you get involved with someone you also have a life of your own.
    You will know what you want for yourself, and you won't have "space"
    to become a full-time doormat. This is better for you and the other
    person.
    Also, if the relationship doesn't work out then you have a life
    of your own to carry you through it. I get the feeling that all
    that "niceness" you've been giving out must be a full-time job
    - so if you have other things in your life at least it'll become
    a part-time job! Which may not "scare off" the other person so much....
    
    This sounds a bit "gung-ho" - there are many things I don't know
    about you that influence the way you behave. So these are just some
    thoughts - hope you work it out.
    
    A

     I've just read the base note and all the repies. I'm new to this
    conf. but here's my .02 cents worth.
    
     I basicaly agree with the past notes. I think you need to sit down
    with yourself and decide what you want most. If its Love or money
    or fame then work to get where you want. Love can be the hardest
    to get, I feel, because when you deal on a personal level with someone
    it takes time to understand them. And the same is true from thier
    standpoint.
     I've been in the same boat as you. Giving and giving, trying to
    let the other person know that I was real in my feelings for her.
    But I do not regret doing this. The relationship did not work out
    and I was very hurt. But when the right person comes along, I will
    give and give again BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT I WANT IN MY LIFE. I may
    get hurt again and again and thats tuff to take. But I'm happy with
    me.
       
    
    Ben

    
    	Hi,
    
    	I'd like to express some thoughts on this. The result of your
    being what you say is "too nice" might not (literally) be for that 
    reason at all! I can think of two possibilities;
    
    	One, some people are simply more comfortable in a stressful
    environment. Though this doesnt make sense at a first glance, it
    can be understood by realizing that these people perhaps grew up
    within one. They do not yet realize exactly what happened and seem
    to be into a sort of never ending drama - always *something* that
    seems to come along and upset stability, at any given time. So,
    here you are being your nice self in the midst of someone who's
    always in the habit of stirring up the mud. You cant understand
    *why* there's always trouble when you try so hard to make things
    nice! It simply turns out that "trouble" is just the most familiar
    state of being for the other person. "Nice" doesnt cut it, doesnt
    feel right; you've simply have a mis-match of psyche in this example
    situation. I've been in a such a relationship.
                                                  
    	The other has to do with the "people pleasing" syndrome and
    watching out for #1 that was mentioned previously. When you give
    up your own needs to please another, your self esteem becomes evident
    to the person you're trying to please. Soon, the other person finds
    that *They* can get away with just about anything they want, and
    you'll still try to be pleasing! Well, it turns out that this other
    person really doesnt want to "get away with just about anything",
    in fact that aspect of themselves (again low self esteem and integrity)
    really kinda bothers 'em. By being "nice", you're really enabling
    them to stay the same! They dont need to have any integrity, cause
    no matter what they do, you'll still be nice to them. The example
    you set is not one of a high self esteem, which is what they actually
    do need to see. As time goes on, it becomes clear that things just
    cant work, and this person has a deep seething feeling whenever
    you're "nice". That feeling actually comes from the painful awareness
    of their own low regard for themselves. I've also been in a
    relationship like this one.
    
    	Being infinitely "nice" can never compensate for a lack of self 
    esteem. People actually appreciate seeing and being around someone
    who can show off behavior based on a high regard for themselves.
    Snobbery is a "fake" high regard. Being totally compliant or always
    compromising for the sake of another shows no regard for the self.
    This inately bugs people, they dont want to see it, they've probably
    seen enough.                                             
    
    	Joe Jas                             

    ...people need to be needed.  I know that, for me, a relationship
    where someone was constantly pleasing ME would make me feel guilty.
    If they didn't provide openings for me to please THEM, I would not
    feel needed.  I would not have the opportunity to give to them,
    as they give to me.  I need that.  I don't want to be the only one
    doing the giving, but I do want to do my share.  I want to be able
    to have that good feeling that I get when I give someone something,
    whether it's a physical thing (gift) or something like my time or
    support.  Maybe that's what's missing in your relationships - you
    are not letting THEM give to YOU - or asking them to give to you.
    ???
    
    --Louise

    
    I think there are two sides to the "nice" coin.  If you are that
    outwardly nice person who "gives" all the time and behaves in the
    way you and the other noters have commented on I think that is good
    providing it is something you do naturally and enjoy and look for
    as a quality in your close associations and [mates].  For you to
    change your behavior [to the extreme] as you suggested would not
    benefit you at all.  You would probably hate yourself.
    
    But the other side of this coin is the impact of your nice-ness
    on yourself.  Are you being this way in spite of yourself?  Are
    you capable of expressing your needs, wants, desires to your mate
    in your own way [being nice] and having those needs met?  Or do
    you give in to other peoples needs first is spite of your own needs
    which now may put you in conflict.
    
    Do you do "FOR" others in order to be nice so they will love you,
    or like you?  Are you that way with friends?  With Family?  With
    lovers?  Do you do things for people so they will think you are
    nice to them and resent what you are doing or did afterwards because
    it wasn't right for you?
    
    What happens if you are in a situation where there is family, and
    friends, and a lover and the needs of all three are different? 
    Do you try and please them all separately or do you just get frazzled
    trying to please everyone at the same time?  Do you intentionally
    avoid these potential conflicts by keeping friends, family, and
    lover apart from each other?
    
    If you do not feel these things are true for you than wonderfull.
     If you can always be that nice person [and I don't know how you
    can]  This world is not without conflict and anger. And not compromise
    your own needs but express then and fullfill them than great.
    
    I bring this observation up to this conference because I was involved
    once with a woman who behaved that way.  She was "always" nice and
    wonderfull to me and everyone else.  But inside she was resentfull
    of it all. I was having a ball with her [and not taking advantage
    of her niceness] but truly enjoying this wonderfull person.  
    
    She ended the relationship in a very [un-nice] way.  I guess she
    just could'nt keep up the facade any longer and the pain of pleasing
    was greater than the pain of letting go.
    
    I know I will be more cautious about relationships in the future
    if my SO is too nice all the time.  I think it underlies other things
    going on.
    
    Bill
    
    

    JUST KEEP ON BEING NICE. THE RIGHT GUY WILL COME ALONG. DONT LET
    YOURSEL BE STEPPED ALL OVER THOUGH. 

There are a number of ways of ending a relationship. Here are two extremes.


    1. Sit down with partner tell them what they are doing wrong and why
    the relationship must end. Risk with this discussion the possibility of
    promises of change and an extension of the agony, till eventually you
    have to take them to pieces and destroy them. After this make sure that
    you never cross their gun sights/walk in front of their car... etc You
    now have an enemy...... 


    2. Sit down with partner take the blame all on yourself I am bad you
    are good, in fact TOO good. They then walk away 2 feet above the
    ground. 

    Now to translate. 


    If they believe then you were right in your prognosis. You were talking
    but not communicating. This is in itself grounds to end. 

    If they do not believe you how are they going to come back and say "I
    am going to be so bad/bitchy that you cant help loving me".... Try it
    in front of the mirror sometime. 

    The second way you end up with a person with whom you can continue the
    relationship on a less intense level. 

    On the other hand, What is being too good?  This may be a good subject
    where noters who are too good can give examples. As the next note
    noters who are too bad/bitchy could give examples. 



    I would suggest that any person who is being told or had the feeling that
    they were TOO GOOD for a PERSON THEY LOVED to very quickly get some lessons
    in communication. 
    

    I think .4 is excellent
    I think .9 is excellent, excellent
    
    My mother is one who gives so much it hurts her in many ways.
    Physically: She'll make promises to be three or four places at once
    and stays 10 or 15 minutes at each. She feels she shouldn't say
    no to a family function.
    
    Emotionally: She'll agree with everyone to their face to avoid an
    arguement or a simple discussion, and behind their backs she'll
    have to devise a way to keep it from the other person forever. She
    will never admit to them she may disagree because "It's not nice."
    
    Mentally: Ma feels she has to psyche out everyone. Instead of asking
    a direct question, she'll go all around the question in order to
    trap the person being questioned. Most times, it's something the
    person would answer openly, anyway, but the quest and power that
    is gained by trapping someone makes Ma feel more successful.
    
    Ma does NOT know how to accept a gift. If I buy her a blouse, she
    buys me an outfit. If I place a bowl of fruit on her table, she
    invites me dinner out. A nice man helped Ma once with a flat tire
    when she was alone and received a dozen shirts (from Jordan Marsh,
    yet!) in the mail.
    
    I've tried discussing with her that she is a valued and valuable
    person. I've asked her, "When will you let someone do for you?"
    I tried explaining that she doesn't have to run to all the kids'
    homes; they can come to her for a change. 
    
    In most cases, my mother is comfortable with her ways. Sometimes,
    however, the strain is obvious. She's wonderful, intelligent,
    observant, alert, keeps herself healthy and active, humorous, witty,
    friendly, warm and genuinely loves to please. However, she does
    not realize how much it would please us if she were able to accept
    a small token of our appreciation. She does not understand that
    we find it hurtful. We talk to Ma about it and what does she do?
    
    OF COURSE -- She agrees!
    
    		Sorry to be so long-winded,
    
    		Susan
    

    Hi,
    
    	I also have been told that I am "too nice".  I have had some
    pretty rough relationships because of this too.  I talked with 
    a good friend of mine and she suggested that I be a little more
    mean.  I tried it because she hasn't steered me wrong yet.  I was
    wrong.  I lost pride and I felt like dirt.  I wasn't even that 
    "mean".  I just wasn't myself and I didn't like not being myself.
    
    	I have to agree with several of the replies.  The main person
    that you have to be nice to is yourself.  If you don't treat yourself
    well how do you expect others to treat you well.  You sound alot
    like me.  I used to put anyone I cared for on a pedistal and constantly
    spoiled her.  I would sacrifice anything for her.  I then bought
    a book titled "Love & Addiction".  This book seemed to describe
    me exactly.  It explains what an addiction is, and how a personal
    relationship can become addictive.  Basically, an addiction is anything
    that becomes more important to someone then the person is to
    his/herself. (The book goes into more detail)
    
    
    Bill  An_Ex_Too_Nice_Guy_Who_is_Still_Too_Nice_but_Happy_Also

        <<< QUARK::DISK$QUARK2:[NOTES$LIBRARY]HUMAN_RELATIONS.NOTE;1 >>>
               -< What's all this fuss about 'sax and violins'? >-
================================================================================
Note 571.0                Can you really be toooo nice                No replies
GYPSC::BINGER "ANSWERS!! No no I have the questions"  6 lines  26-AUG-1988 05:17
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If there is such a thing as being too *nice*, especially to a partner. I 
would be very interested to have examples.

I mean soooo nice that you damaged the relationship.

Stephen
    

    re .16- Stephen, I've faced this accusation before.  In my case,
    I eventually realized that by being too compassionate, too responsible,
    too self-sufficient, my partner was made to feel that she was
    contributing nothing to me, that I didn't really need her.  My actions
    were *closing her out* without me being aware of it.  We were much
    younger and under heavy stress (both doing heavy technical college
    courseloads, never enough time for each other, raging hormones,
    the whole stick) and we lost communications as well.
    
    But in a lot of ways, when we started having our problems, they
    got worse because we both soldiered on independently, being 'mature'
    (as we misunderstood it to mean 'strong') instead of allowing our
    vulnerabilities to show.  I did this at great emotional cost, because
    my family had never taught me how to share those kinds of burdens
    and thereby become closer.  So I ended up making her resent me because
    I didn't need her to comfort me.  She wanted me to NEED her.  That
    wasn't really an unreasonable thing to ask of me.
    
    This is similar to the question at hand, in that someone who is
    always 'nice' may be that way because they don't know how to fight,
    in fact, will always try to avoid conflict.  Fighting is healthy.
     It tells you you're dealing with another real human being who has
    a separate, independent viewpoint.  When I am in a relationship
    and I want to deal with a conflict of some sort, and the other person
    is too damn nice to even admit the conflict exists, I start to think
    that the niceness is just a pose, hiding from the real world where
    real people are allowed to disagree with each other.
    
    What causes these 'too nice' or 'too strong' behaviour patterns?
    Conditioning/socialization/the-way-we're-raised...the underlying
    problem is an unreasonable expectation that one 'should be' a certain
    way...nice.  or strong.  And real emotions and needs get subordinated
    for years to moulding this personna that performs nicely.  When
    the personna must perform in an unbecoming role (like, one needs
    to accept confort, or one needs to have an honest fight) the facade
    shows the cracks.  Is there a real person underneath, and can we
    persuade 'em to throw the facade away, since its gotten in the way
    of relating???
    
    If not, the relationship may terminate because "you're too nice".
    
    Hm, what an introductory note to H-R!  Hi folks- just call me
    
    DougO                                                            

The answer to the question posed is: yes, it is possible to be too nice.  It has
to do with the recipient's sense of self worth.

If the recipient feels worthy of the niceness, all is fine.  However, if the
recipient feels unworthy, then the niceness runs counter to his/her self image
and will be rejected, even suspected.  This can usually be tolerated to a
limited degree by a most people.  However, in a relationship, these long term
mismatches between received affection/consideration and self image can be very
hurtful.  Ultimately, if one feels unworthy of the affection, or simply unable
to return it in the kind or quantity that one receives, it starts to become a
burden.  And what a burden!  Heavier and heavier, day by day, month by month,
year by year.  And previous replies have pointed out the futility of telling
someone that they shouldn't be so nice.

If the person being "nice" realizes the effect that this burden has, he/she
would realize that lots of overt "niceness" actually has the effect of being
a form of showmanship, or even one-upsmanship.  It is a mild form of aggression.

To form a lasting relationship, it seems to me, requires that both parties
carefully work to tailor their behavior to their partner's sense of worth.  I
realize that this is harder, but it seems to me an absolute requirement.
									-Kevin

       
       
       	I'm "too nice" also.. I tried the "being a shit" routine but
       I hate myself when I do that.. So now, it's just a waiting game
       for the right person who appreciates a "nice guy" to come along..
       I'm semi-patient.... Although, will she be "too nice" for me??
       :-)
       
       	Although, the next woman who say to me "Oh Michael, you're
       Sooooooo nice!!" is gonna get thrown up on.. {semi-serious}
       
       						mike

	There is another side of the "too nice" issue and that's what do
	you expect in return for your niceness. The best example I can come
	up with is the mother that sacrifices all for her kids but expects
	that to tie them to her no matter how old they are.

	This happens in love relationships also. I give up everything for you
	and I expect the same in return. This isn't being nice, it's being
	manipulative. Are you trying to control someone by being nice? Or
	are you really doing it because you want to? liesl

       RE: .20
       
       	Not at all.. All I "expect" in return is for someone to care
       	about me, respect me, and not take advantage of my "niceness".. I don't
       think that is asking too much...
       
       RE: .21
       
       	hehehehehehe
       
       								mike

    
    
    But Mike.....  You ARE sssssoooooo NICE!!!!
    
    
    Katie and Sandy

    I haven't actually had a lover tell me that I was "too nice", but I
    HAVE been told "you deserve someone better than me," which probably
    amounts to the same thing.  However, given the way she ended the
    relationship, I would agree.... 
    
    				Steve

    So.....what do you do if it is part of your personality to be REALLY
    nice?  I feel good about myself, am confident of my "worth" and
    all that physci stuff, but I enjoy giving...because I feel I have
    alot to offer someone and enjoy offering. Although, she did go further
    than I might, I have learned later into the relationship to pull
    back if I'm not getting what I need in return (which is usually
    what happens). People think that because you are really nice and
    giving, you don't want anything in return - EVER - WRONG! Stupid
    me, I mistakenly thought those around you (who I thought cared)
    would be able to tell when it was your turn to be given something,
    but they stop "looking" for a chance to give back it seems.
    
    So my dilemia is - how do you be a "nice" person, and let people
    know you need too?
    

    Re: .25
    
    >-< Is there a happy medium? >-
    
    I figure two nice people ought to be a terrific match.  (Though
    the selfish among us would rather the niceness get spread around.
    But hey, if we want niceness, we'll just have to produce some
    ourselves.  It's probably good for us.)

    I'm not looking for anything in return for my niceness.  I get all
    I want from just the fact of knowing that I AM being what I want
    to be....NICE.  
    
    Bill

    re .27
    
    You surely mean 'easier to give' and the converse more 'difficult
    receive'. As soon as you give and then deny the other person the
    oportunity of reciprocating the label 'too nice' becomes appropriate.
    You then get all the pleasure and they end up feeling indebted. The
    expression 'A person can take only so much' applies to niceness as
    well. 
    
    Reconsidering my earlier reply I would say that the label 'too nice'
    applies to a person who refuses the other the oportunity of being
    nice as well. The label 'too good' is another label. This should
    not be confused with nasty people. They are not the opposite of
    nice people.
    Stephen

         Hullo....
         
         I feel a bit strange, writing this, but I have so
         enjoyed this topic that I wanted to contribute....
         
         I am a *first class bitch*. No problem, acid tongue,
         flames from eyes, amoral...the whole nine yards....
         But....[you knew there was a but...didn't you?] I
         am married to for 17 years now a truly NICE man.
         And I have experienced all those insecurities about
         how to deal with *niceness* that you folks have been
         talking about....my two cents worth:
         
         This *nice* person I married, has learned not to
         silently judge me for not being *nice*....I have
         learned not to try to *educate* him to the *real*
         world....
         
         This person *has* learned to *demand* things from
         me when appropriate....endlessly turning the other
         cheek can be dull and breeds insecurity on *my*
         part...no don't ask for a logical explanation of
         that...there is none...I only know that when he refused
         to demand respect and equality....I felt insecure
         and punished him for it.
         
         *I* have learned to curb my tongue and my style when
         I might actually embarrass him....I don't give up
         my identity or suffer stress related headaches....I
         just cool it occasionally so he can function. *I*
         even am nice [sic] upon occasion...just for him.
         
         *We* have learned to be separate in those things
         that we can not endure together....it has allowed
         us to remain a couple. I *can not* abide politics
         or political semantics....so I stay away.  He *can
         not* abide argument for the sake of mental
         stimulation...so he stays away. *I* do not demean
         him for being soft and gentle....he does not regret
         that I can not be soft and gentle.  In many ways
         we provide each other with the chance to vicariously
         experience something we would secretly *love* to
         be....each other!
         
         But, it is a constant working thing our relationship.
         Everyday, we work at it...for 17 years.  It is better
         today and will be better tomorrow...but it is never
         easy. It is work....and even he in his *niceness*
         admits it is a lot of just plain work.  He is my
         best friend....and I love him...but he *is* nice
         and my that grates sometimes when I see someone walk
         all over him....and I amd *not* nice and that grates
         sometimes when he sees the sparks start to erupt.
         But the biggest thing we both have
         learned?  I *NEVER* save him...what an insult! If
         he *must* be crucified then let him at least do it
         with dignity.  AND, he *NEVER* interferes in my
         territory...what a transgression.  If I must make
         a flaming A***** of myself than at least let me do
         it in style.
         
         A long way to say a simple thing....I apologise....but
         I guess the point is....Bitches and Bastards really
         do appreciate you wonderful people....and we very
         often fall in love with you just because you are
         wonderful.......we just sometimes
         do not know how to touch you without hurting....or
         being expected to change....but we do love you.
         
         Melinda.
                         

    re .29
    
    >>>You surely mean 'easier to give' and the converse more 'difficult
    >>>receive'. As soon as you give and then deny the other person
    >>>the oportunity of recipricating the lable 'too nice' becomes
    >>>appropriate.
    
    	I agree, but I never said that I didn't accept another person
    being nice.  I love it.  I would be a hypocrite if I wouldn't let
    someone be nice to me if they wanted to.
    
    Bill
    

       
       
       	RE: .30
       
       	Thanks for the entry.. It helps explain a few things..
       
       							mike

    re .30
    
    I don't understand how you can know you're a nasty woman, and be
    again a nasty woman ?
    
    What are you calling Nasty ? You don't smile everytime, that's it
    ? I need explanations...
    
    Arnaud.

         RE: 32 ... You're welcome. But this is only my viewpoint
         remember.
         
         RE: 33 ... Wow....I have had a devil of a time trying
         to come up with a witty and succinct answer to how
         and why I know I am *nasty*.  Actually *bitch* is
         a better and more descriptive term....
         
         I have two very long text files that I decided against
         sending....this is hard to get down in type and not
         sound like Lucrecia Borgia!  {Then again, maybe the
         truth hurts more than I care to admit....ahhhh well.}
         
         How about this?
         
         Ruthless Honesty.
         
         I think that defines it.  *IF* I am right, and I
         *know* I am right, I will take whatever action necessary
         to achieve desired results. I have very little
         compunction and precious little compassion for people
         over the age of 20. I may *feel* bad about them or
         what they do....but I will *not* alter my actions
         to accomodate their inadequacies. And before someone
         asks the question that begs for....no, I have never
         asked for compassion or compunction either. I take
         total and entire responsibility for *my* actions
         whatever they are; I expect others to do the same.
         
         And before someone tries to have me justify that
         view of the universe...I am not asking for acceptance.
         I am trying to answer an honestly asked question
         with honesty. There are times when it would be warm
         and cuddly to be less *me* than I am....but infinetly
         less challanging and probably dull from my perspective.
         I am the person everyone throws at the crisis situation
         to pull everybody's chestnuts out of the fire. I
         kick a** and I make waves and I create havoc....and
         we get the job done...well. And then I move on to
         the next crisis.
         
         In a time and a place where many people strive for
         mutual love and understanding and we bend over backwards
         to make sure everyone in the known universe has equal
         rights and feels loved....I sort of don't fit. My
         decisions are based on simple facts...if you do *what
         you say you will do* or you admit right up front that
         you thought you could but you messed up and now you
         can't...you are first rate. I will protect you, hire
         you, help you, do it for you. Because you were honest.
         
         If you don't, and even worse, don't have the guts to
         say that you can't but try to hide it or excuse it by blaming
         others...you don't rate at all. Period. I will run
         rough shod over you and you will never know what
         hit you. I am *very* efficient.    
         
         I guess that is why I say I am *nasty*. It is the
         ability to be ruthless that I harbour....there are
         precious few wonderful and bizarr people who can
         adjust to someone like me...and love me. I am lucky
         to have so many in my life. I *know* that I am difficult
         to like....its sort of like hugging a cactus...you
         have to develop a taste....but I am not selling myself
         short here! For those who can stand the heat...the
         marshmallows are great! What you get for loving the
         whirlwind is a trip to the stars!
         
         Enough!
         
         Is that the answer you looked for?
         
         Melinda

    Re. .30 & .34
                    
    Melinda,
    
    Your replies are some of the most interesting responses I've seen          
    in notes, indicating unusual objectivity and insight into onesself.
    I'm sure it's a valuable piece of social education, but not sure
    yet how to fit it into my own experiences of interpersonal
    relationships.  Thank you for sharing that with us.  It's wonderful
    how you and your husband have worked out your relationship.
    
    I respect your openness, frankness, and articulative ability.  I
    also don't think that some of the qualities you described in .34
    are necessarily "bad", or maybe I have more leanings toward
    bitchiness than I thought ;-).
                                   
    I'll bet you do command respect.
    
    Paula
                                                               

    RE .34:
    
    I respect your honesty but how honest are you when it comes to starting
    a relationship.  It is great that you are so confident of yourself
    to know what you want, and have the ability to get it.  I was just
    wondering if that included pretending to be very sweet and "nice"
    just to get someone that you wanted.  It seems to me that if you
    were honest enough to state what you did in .34, you would be honest
    enough not to play games with someone who wants to believe in the
    way you present yourself.  I guess what I'm trying to say is, Are
    you sure that the person you want,  knows what type of person you
    say you are in .34?  Or Do you care?  
    
    Bill
    

         RE: .35 ... Thank you, Paula! The ability of the
         people in this notes file to be objective about views
         that do not mesh exactly with their own is probably
         why I had the courage to reply in the first place.
         
         RE: .36 ... Bill, I don't think I *know* how to play
         games....I have been told [and see no reason to
         disbelieve the information] that people can spot
         who and what I am from about 200 yards....plenty
         of room for those uninterested to detour! %^> [Ahem,
         I can't leave this without an added comment....I
         *do* play games ...don't we all... but I try my very
         hardest to make sure they are played between consenting
         adults who already know the rules before the game
         starts....see?]
         
         But to be more serious and less glib....[another
         one of my bitchy habits....I tend to insert pithy
         comments of suspect import into glib parenthetical
         statements....like this one....]  I have two things
         to say in answer to your interesting question. [And
         thoughtful one also...]
         
         First:
         
         Once upon a time....when I was very much younger
         and whole lot less wise...and considering how lacking
         in wisdom I still am, my state of mental competence
         at that point in my life was somewhere at -2 on a
         scale of 1 to 10.....[sigh]. Anyway, once upon a
         time....I broke a man's heart. I really wanted and
         loved him....and I pretended to be Polyanna. And
         it fell horrendously into jagged pieces from which
         we could not even build a raggedy andy picture of
         friendship.
         
         I do not think [from a hindsight viewpoint anyway...]
         that the problem was that he couldn't love who I
         really was....I think the problem was that I had
         deceived him into loving someone I *wasn't* and so
         he could never *trust* me again. Not only was the
         demise sad, it was ugly and messy and hurtful. I
         will never knowingly be a party to such pain again.
         
         Second:
         
         When someone like me embarks on a friendship or a
         relationship...it is not part-time or part-way thing.
         My friends are able to call on me for anything anytime
         anywhere...period. That is my committment to people
         who have the audacity to love me. It can be rocky
         and rabble rousing....and there are times when I
         spend hours having my friends alternately scream
         at me and hug me when they are trying to save me
         from myself....but it is never deceptive and it is
         never dull. I guess that is why I have a few *wonderful*
         friends and many acquaintances. The admission price
         is too high.....? [Well, My Daddy always said you
         get what you pay for....;^>]  
         
         I don't know how to say that any more politely. I
         am *not* elitist....my *friends* are a weird bunch
         of assorted people with only *one* thing in common:
         They do *not* fear or lie to me...and they *do* love
         me...so I love them. We regularly exchange comment
         and opinion on the inadequacy or stupidity of each
         other's behavior....and we are always there to provide
         shoulder, kleenex, wanted [and unwanted] advice and
         good old silent grief with each other.
         
         =========
         
         It is impossible for me not to hurt people sometimes.
         I [oh dear, this is difficult to explain...bear with
         me?] try not to, but if I *pretend* to believe what
         I don't or be what I am not to accomodate someone's
         sensibilities....then I *will* hurt those people
         anyway when the charade falls apart.
         So, I err on the side of honesty and I do
         see people cringe occasionally when an univited
         proposition ellicits a very bald *no, thank you*
         on my part? Or my bald assessment of the state of
         affairs of a project goes down like sand in clams! 
         But, no, I do not think I ever gull anyone into
         passivity and then dump a ton of bricks on their
         head....I think that without exception, people know
         me for what I am....I hope.
         
         For the rest of it...I am flashy and bold and I run
         with people who are the same....the timid seldom
         get close enough to get burned anyway. [You, know
         that sounded terribly obnoxious didn't it? It wasn't
         meant that way....what I mean is that my usual behaviour
         sort of annonces who I am and how I operate....if
         someone refuses to read the road signs I can not
         afford to accept all the blame.] If you *saw* me,
         you would know in the first 5 seconds that I play
         only hard ball....and then you could make your choice.
         I *never* pursue where not invited....
         
         I think people are wonderful...I love them. I think
         people who truly care are even mpre wonderful....I
         just admit to myself that I will never *be* one of
         them.  That can be sad.....but they will never *be*
         like me either....and I guess that could be seen
         as sad also....maybe we just need to appreciate each
         others' strangeness from afar....and marvel that
         coming at problems from disparate stances we come
         to similar solutions?
         
         Melinda

    Melinda,
    
    You sound like the kind of person who truly lives in
    integrity with herself.  I applaud you!!******
    
    Nanci
    

         I am desperately seeking a witty way of saying thank
         you without blushing unexpectedly.....but I am at
         a loss for words....[unusual in itself...]
         
         So, Thank you. The *appearance* is probably somewhat
         more palatable than the actuality, but I am touched
         by such support. And admittedly surprised....
         
         Melinda

    
    it's a strange planet....
    
    1. some of the people who claim to either be nice or have had
    others say this to them have been the exact opposite to me....
    as i was to them....
    
    2. i find it humorous that a person who comes in here and claims
    to be a "bitch" recieves so much positive support from these
    very same people!
    all i do is post an opinion and many people rush to be the first
    to tell me what a jerk i am!
    
    by the way, melinda, i am not chastising you or suggesting that
    anyone else chastise you....if you're happy, i'm happy.
    
    
    i've been nice
    i've been too nice
    i've been irritable and i've been not nice at all...
    
    i try to be nice as often as i can and i try even harder to
    not be mean....
    
    guess it all depends on the phases of the moon
    and male pms

    everyone have a nice weekend!
    rik
    

    Re: .41
    
    >and her notes were long and contributed nothing of substance to
    >the topic
    
    Nothing to the topic as defined in the basenote's title, but certainly
    something to the file in general.

Re .30 and following. Before we go too far on the too nasty cult answer the 
following question.



What did the Sadist say.... When the machochist asked to be hit.






NO NO  NO 



Melinda, 

I dont think that you are being mean to the people who love you. You are 
being **VERY** nice.

Stephen
    

    I agree.  My feeling is that Melinda is a strong person
    who is assertive about her needs, wants, and feelings.  
    This really doesn't have any bearing on how *nice* she
    is or isn't.  She seems to have a very definite sense of
    her personal ethics and values and lives by these standards.
    This is what I think is remarkable.  I know very few people
    who actually _live_ by their own standards.
    
    Nanci

    Re: .34;
    
    Okay, it seems like I understand much things about "nasty people".

    Thanks, nasty Melinda ;-)

    Arnaud.

There are probably various reasons for the "too nice" behaviour, but I'll
restrict myself to the one I know about.  I know about it because I used to
suffer from it, without realizing it was a flaw in me.  I used to be too
giving, too willing to bend over backwards for others without ever asking
for anything in return.  I finally realized that life is give *and* take,
and so I've learned to stick up for myself and expect things back.  I've
learned how to deal with situations where that doesn't happen.  And I've
learned that it's a real flaw -- at least for myself -- to give *too*
much.  So, I simply don't give quite so much anymore, and I'm more choosey
about who I give to.  And I consider myself more now (hmm, how to say *that*
without sounding conceited!).  It was sure a hard realization to come to.

Wow, this is probably one of the most poorly worded notes I've ever written!
Hopefully, anyone who knows what I'm talking about understands what I'm
*trying* to say.


Brian

	People will take advantage of you.....

Peter_s

         I think there's a distinct border between 'nice' and 'gullible'.
    
                                Greg

RE: .49

>         I think there's a distinct border between 'nice' and 'gullible'.

	I think it may be possible for a 'nice' person to be 'gullible', and/or
    a 'gullible' person to be 'nice',,,   but what do you call the person
    who takes advantage of these people.?.?.?.?.?


	What would you rather be,, the 'nice' and/or 'gullible' person,,,
    or would you rather be the person who takes advantage of them........



Peter_s

re: Peter_s


  Good point.  As someone very special said to me, "What if you give,
               and give all your life".  What would be so bad about 
               that?  Far better than if you 'take and take' all your
               life.....

    It's been interesting looking back through this note, reflecting on
    past dating experiences and how they've ended.  While I've never
    been told I was "too nice", what I have heard, more times than I
    ever wanted to, was "You deserve someone better than me".  This
    is usually said as I'm informed that I'm now "history".
    
    I think I can understand the motivation for saying something like
    this - they think they are avoiding hurt feelings by making me
    feel that I am really better off without them.  Well, in one case
    that was definitely true, but otherwise it's just damned depressing,
    especially when it comes from someone whom I thought a lot of and
    said to myself "finally, I've found a GOOD woman!", and I find
    myself resentful that *I* wasn't given the opportunity to decide
    who I do or do not deserve.
    
    I still believe what I wrote back in .3 (or wherever it was) - I
    consider myself "one of the good guys", and have no intention of
    deliberately setting out to become a slime, just so that some women
    will feel that I DO deserve them, but the thought is tempting.
    
    Of course, this is not universal - I have met several good women with
    whom things just didn't work out, and I didn't get "the line", but
    I wish I knew why it is such a popular thing to say.
    
    I guess I'll just keep trying.
    
    			Steve

	 "You deserve better than me...."

	 ahhhh.... a line I've heard many many times... It did tend to
	 p*ss me off for a long time....who are they to decide what is
	 right and not right for me...  In the last major
	 breakup....(very major!) I heard it....so, I asked what he
	 meant... (its a good thing we were still very good
	 friends...)  It wasn't so much that I deserved "better", but
	 that he had realized that there were things in our
	 relationship that he just could not give me...and to be truly
	 happy he realized that I needed those things.... The way he
	 explained it to me was more of a "I don't want to hurt you in
	 the future when I can't give these things to you...."

	 I started thinking a lot about that and he was right...we all
	 "need" certain things in a relationship to make us truly
	 happy... if the other person cannot fill that need, no matter
	 how much it hurts, the relationship will have to end...or go
	 on in misery forever.... I "needed" affection and to be able
	 to give affection....he was not an affectionate guy....he was
	 VERY uncomfortable with affection... We cared for each other
	 very much, but he knew there was something I needed that he
	 could not give...

	 I guess what I am trying to say, as I look back at the times
	 I've heard that line...yes, some of the times were just a way
	 to justify hurting me to themselves....but, by far, the most
	 times I heard it, it was a very self-less gesture....coming
	 from the heart...looking at it that way has made it hurt a
	 lot less...  

	 next time you hear it....think about what it is they are
	 REALLY trying to say....

	 kath

    re:.54
    
    Why not just say "There was no chemestry there"?
    
    They do it all the time on Love Connection. :-)
    
    
    Bill
    

    Or why not accept and develop a friendship.  Must all relationships
    have 'chemistry'.

	"You deserve better"...."you're such a *nice* girl"...  yup, I've
been there.  And I used to think there was something wrong with that - and
I just didn't know how to change who/what I was.  I finally decided that I
didn't have to - eventually, I'd find someone who would appreciate it.  (Or
at least I hoped so - I've always been a bit of an idealist and romanticist,
what can I say? ;-) )

	My last major relationship ended with "it's nothing you did - you're
a great girlfriend, but you deserve better".  Months later, I looked
back and realized that it was true - I had deserved better.  My friends and
family tried to tell me that, but at the time I couldn't/wouldn't hear them.
A lot of it was needs I had that he couldn't fill, and some of it was just
the way he treated me.  In this case, I think it was just a line and I had
a hard time understanding just what was going on.  I suspect that he felt
somewhat "guilty" because he couldn't return what I was giving.

	Re: Bonnie

	My first "real" relationship was with a good friend in college.  We
both felt something more than friendship and decided to explore that.  Actually,
he had wanted to try it earlier, but I wasn't ready to get involved.  We went
out for a while, and then he came to me and told me that he thought we did
better as "just friends" as opposed to "being a couple".  He was open and honest
about it, and while it hurt at first, I had to agree with him.  I'd much rather
that approach than the "too good for me" line.  We're still good friends today.

	Re: Steve

	Don't give up!  I think for all the "nice" guys out there, there are
"nice" women who will appreciate them and who will be appreciated right back.
I've been seeing a "nice guy" for several months now, and my comment to my
best friend recently was "You're right - I did deserve better, and I think
I'm now 'getting what I deserve'!".  It's nice to finally find someone that
understands how you feel and why you do certain things.

-Amy-

    Re: last few flurry of replies...
    
    
    Sometimes, I think we forget to be friends....  we get to the "lets
    take off our clothes and put this love to the test" syndrome much
    too quickly.
    
    I know I will shy away from a guy if I feel like I am being pressured
    too quickly.  I have ended some relationships because of this. Being
    told "I love you" after a month or two tends to scare me. I don't
    know how to handle it, so I end the relationship. I don't know how
    to tell them I'm not ready to love you, I can't hurt their feelings,
    so I totally walk away, rather than hurt them with words.
    
    I still think though that relationships tend to go just too fast.
    I have been in a relationship where it did go too fast, and I AND
    he were just too uncomfortable...  If a relationship is going to
    work out, then why not just let it go slowly?... I mean if it develops
    into a lifelong commitment, then you have the rest of your life
    for other developments, right?
    
    As for being too nice, most of us tend to have that in us. I haven't
    given up being nice, but I have built this wall around my heart
    that will take someone very strong to break it down.  If I ever
    let anyone. Now, I just date here and there, now and then, but I
    have replaced men with a new love in my life... ice.... its wonderful
    being out on the ice, and getting to know you, and discovering just
    what you can do and experiences new highs everyday... 
    
    Remember, if a relationship is going to be, it will be, no amount
    of shoving, pushing, manipulating, or whatever will make it be.
    Time and patience, and a lot of understanding and learning, and
    both people wanting to be there, will be the only thing that will lead
    to a relationship....
    
    Just my 5.5 cents worth...

    
    
      To some people, the words "I love you" hold a much different
    meaning than the words "I'm IN love with you".
    
      The next time someone says "I love you" ask them just what they
    mean by that.  It may save you some heartaches down the line.
        
    
    Dave

    
    If I asked my sweetie that, I might not ever hear the words again...

RE: .60

	Why?  Does your sweetie expect you to be a mind-reader?

	I think I would be PLEASED if someone asked me...I'd love to
	EXPLAIN and SHOW them exactly what I meant!

	k

	RE .61

	I'm Asking :-)

    I get the oddest responses back to ILU. Including "why do you think
    that is?" It's fine to ask but sometimes I'd prefer an ILU2. 
    

    
    re .63
    
    You might prefer it, but if they don't mean it, it's worse than
    them not saying anything.
    
    /prc

    re: .56
    
    Joyce,  
    
    You bring up a valid point.  Not all relationships must have
    "chemistry" but when one person feels the chemistry is there and
    the other doesn't, it certainly puts a strain on the friendship
    (especially for the person who feels the chemistry).
                                                       
    
    re: 59
    
    Dave,
    
    Great point.  There is a difference in loving someone.  I recently
    ended a relationship.  I loved him but I wasn't IN Love with him.
    I kept thinking that perhaps with time, I would fall in love.  I
    reached a point where I realized I was only fooling myself.
    Fortunately, I was dating a man who was very understanding....and
    we parted friends or should I say on friendly terms.
    
    
    Getting back to the topic of this note, like most others, I would
    recommend that the author be herself.  Your best friend is and always
    will be yourself...accept that friend and don't make her/him to
    be something she/he is not.
    
    Kris
    
    BTW - just an aside here....I had a professor who stopped in the
    middle of a lecture and voiced a thought which had just popped into
    his mind.  "Have you ever wondered why the nicest people you know
    end up marrying jerks?"  Someone in my class answered that perhaps
    it was because only the nice people will put up with the jerks.
    
    
    
                  

    re .65 BTW
    
    	My boyfriend and I are *both* nice!!
    

    I know I was one of the folks earlier that said that I was considered
    too nice.  I just found out what being too nice can do.
    
    I was too nice to my girlfriend.  I put her on a pedestal and made
    sure that she was happy no matter what.  I put her my top priority
    in life.  I didn't see that I was slowly taking over that life.
    She had to do nothing in order to be pleased.  I took care of her
    every whim.  I would never let any hurt fall apon her; Yet I never
    saw the hurt I was inflicting.  I smothered her and I took over
    her life.  Of course we are now broken up, I guess I found out too
    late.  I don't blame her for not telling me before it was too late,
    It must be very hard to tell someone you love that they are loving
    you too much.
    
    Bill
    
    (P.S.  Sorry Chris.)

    
    
    	Wow!!  You just hit the nail on the head, Bill!!  Wanna
    	get together with my boyfriend and explain that to HIM!?
    	(half smilie)
    
    	Things are going much better between him and I now, but 
    	every so often I have to explain to him that I NEED time
    	to myself with my friends or just my family.  
    
    	I know he means well, but like you did to your girlfriend,
    	he can smother me.  I consider myself to be reasonably
    	independent and ENJOY time to myself.  Often times, he
    	doesn't see that and wants to spend every hour of the day
    	with me.
    
    	We're working on it though!!  (8
    
    	Tigga~~ (Kim)

    
    
    	My fiance used to be like this with his ex-grilfriend..
    	But that's because she forced it on him.  She wanted
    	to be with him every minute of his spare time...and he
    	gave it to her.
    
    	When we first started dating he was afraid to ask if
    	I minded if he wanted to play golf, or go out after
    	work with the guys.  Of course I didn't mind!! He
    	has his free time and I have mine.  He does understand
    	now that we don't have to spend every waking hour together
    	and  he doesn't have to bend over backwards to please me
    	like he had to with Sheila.  He used to be "too nice"
    	now he's "just right"  :-)
    

    Yeah, My Ex kinda forced it apon herself too.  She always wanted
    to sepnd time with me and be a part of everything in my life.  I
    let her and she let me.  It was mutual, until she started to feel
    smothered.  Then she pulled away.  I just didn't notice this change
    and I kept going on the way we used to.  So then it was me constantly
    trying to be with her and nothing in return.  I can see why things
    fell apart, but now I no longer do things like that.  The girl I'm
    currently seeing and I  make sure that we each have our own time,
    while stil making plenty of time to be together.  Things are going
    great too, I may also add!
    
    The Joker  
    
    (Tigg~~ I'll talk to him if you want but it's best if he figures
    it out for himeslf..... 8-)  )
    
    

    
    
    	RE: Joker
    
    	Thanks, buddy.  But you're right. He DOES have to find out
    	for himself and slowly but surely he's learning.  (8
    	(With a nudge now and then)  (8
    
    	It's even more difficult when he doesn't hang around with
    	his old buddies because they're basically drug addicts, 
    	alcoholics and general losers.  He doesn't WANT to hang
    	around with them and *I* don't want him hanging around 
    	with them.
    
    	For me, seems like the majority of my friends have moved
    	away. )8  Basically, we got each other and sometimes it's
    	just not enough.
    
    	Tigga~~~