Conference quark::human_relations-v1

     
    
    ... as a clarification ...
    
    In this relationship she sees it as meaning more he thinks it's
    just being close friends.  I wonder if this is a case of male
    thinking vs female thinking.  
    
    ... oh well go from there with your ideas ...
    

    
    ...I have lots of "good" friends that I wouldn't act that way with.
       This person may not need to commit yet but he sure has a problem
       defining friend vs LOVER.  It may be a warning sign.............
    
    S
    
    

    it sounds from here like he enjoys the physical pleasures but
    doesn't want to make an emotional commitment....I would be
    very cautious about a person like that.

    You know, it never rains but it pours.
    
    Last night, I came to grips with this very issue, only I was on the
    receiving end.  I was the one being told that there isn't anything
    wrong with friends engaging in a bit of physical intimacy, even though
    there are no strings, no commitments, no befores or afters.  And since
    the flesh was willing and the spirit was weak, ah, well, never mind...
                                         
    This isn't just any acquaintance of mine, though.  I've known her a
    very long time, and we've been with each other through some very
    difficult times.  The first time it happened I felt as if I had
    betrayed her trust in me, at which point she turned around and said
    that giving her the ability to express her affection physically without
    making anything of it beyond the moment at which it happened was part
    of her trust in me.  But we both had to be comfortable with it,
    we both had to understand it. .0 seems to indicate that Donna does
    not feel comfortable with what is happening, and I would say that
    you have to let the other person know, given that she feels the
    friendship is worth working on.
    
    I think I see Donna's point.  It's perfectly possible that the party of
    the second part has ulterior motives, and I would certainly support
    others who have recommended that she be cautious.  I don't think
    some sort of blanket statement about what level of physical affection
    constitutes a journey beyond the bounds of friendship.  People are
    all too different, and their relationships even more so.
                                   
    DFW

    er: .0
    
    What is a friend ?
    
    I believe the only "limits" one puts onto ones friends is what each
    person is comfortable with. I've heard (read) that some people
    consider their spousse as their "best friend". 
    
    Others have said there parents were their "best friend".
    
    If you are haviing doubts about your friends' motivations; then
    YOU need tolet them know how you feel about it; what your 'level
    of comfort is', and what you consider to be 'appropriate' to your
    relationship.
    
    Some people have sex with their friends, and some people hardly
    ever speak to their friends.
    
    Somewhere between "max commitment" and "total alienation" lays a
     level of 'comfort' of appropriate behaviour for 'friends'. It is
    different for everyone.
    
    It is you that has to decide "what is right for you" and "how much
    you're willing to give" to a maintain a "friendship".
    
    After all, you have to live your own life - so you might as well
    as make your own decison based on "whats right for you".
    
    .bob.

    
    In reply to .4 ...
    
    For myself, I couldn't go to bed with a friend or otherwise who I was
    not "involved" with (ie. my SO).  I can't imagine being involved
    with someone and trying to explain to them that I also sleep with my
    good friend Joe.  If at the point you have a SO, do you stop
    sleeping with your "friends" and if so how do you make that break?
    
    I am in no way making a judgement, I am just am amazed (jealous
    maybe?) of those who can maintain an emotional distance like that.
    Maybe it's not really an emotional distance, but rather being able
    to make a distiction between going to bed with a friend as opposed
    to going to bed with a significant other.  It never crosses my mind
    to go to bed with a friend of mine unless I'm interested in them
    as more than a friend.  I think mom did a good job of raising an
    old fashion girl here and I didn't even notice.
    Is this the difference between "having sex" and "making love"?
    
    I thought the answer to my question was easy and I'm taken back
    by some of the different responses.  I'm once again shown just how
    naive and narrow-minded I can be.  I certainly do learn a lot about
    people in this notes file.  Thank you all for your responses so
    far ... it's very enlightening!
    
    Donna
    

RE: .0

I don't see a problem in a friend expressing themselves physically, however
they do it.

I do see a problem between you, and your 'friend' that you question his motives!

I do see a problem that you are not comfortable with your friend expressing
themselves physically.

Talk about these problems... If a resolution is possible, great... if not...
split.

'Dr. Ruth' 

    re: .6
    
    Hmmmm.  I don't know what I would do in a committed relationship.
    It's been so long since I was in one, I don't think I remember how
    it feels.  That sounds like a whine, and maybe it is, but that's
    how things stand at the moment.  It is entirely possible that my
    view would change.
    
    'Maintaining an emotional distance' (I'll stick with Donna's phrase)
    is what makes the situation I describe possible.  If the both of
    us couldn't do it, it wouldn't happen.  There is the understanding
    that it might never happen again, though we might grow old and gray
    in each other's friendship.
    
    It's not the difference between 'having sex' and 'making love' either.
    To me, it isn't either of those things.  I think of the former as
    a clinical description, totally out of the context of relationship.
    And there's no way to apply the latter across the spectrum of people
    and their interactions, although I think it at least indicates that
    the people involved care about each other.
    
    What I really wanted to say, even more than simply providing a counter
    example, was that there is really no right way or wrong way to think
    on this issue.  Thinking one thing and living another would be
    self-deception, which can be bad for the soul, but I really don't
    think there's a clear line between what I'm thinking and what Donna
    is thinking.
    
    It's a personal decision.  I had a very traditional upbringing,
    and it would shock my parents to know I thought and felt this way.
    
    Hmmmm.  I think this gives me an idea for a note.  Stay tuned...
    
    DFW

    After an old lover and I both lost our respective spouses, we shared
    a sometimes relationship [she in Salt lake and I in San Jose]. We
    saw each other on business trips to respective cities.
    
    As it turned out, the period of devestation turned to better times
    and we married different spouses. We still write and talk over the
    phone; she became my spouse's good friend.
    
    /ch

    re: .6
    
    	I can see where you are coming from.. Up until a few years ago,
    	I felt exactly the same way. That is, until the situation happened
    	(a couple of times with different friends) and then I understood.
    	It's not THAT difficult to keep that "emotional distance" as
    	long as both parties are aware of what is going on and agree
    	where things start and stop.
    
    	Personally, that part of life is past me now and I'd rather
    	be with an SO... (whomever that person will be :-)) Being with
    	a friend is "nice" but being with an SO has more to offer..
    
    							mike

    Certain intimacies could just be part of friendship.  The things
    Donna mentions in .0, holding hands, cuddling in front of the TV,
    etc., could be just that.  That doesn't mean that one friend won't
    be uncomfortable with that, but to my mind, those things don't
    necessarily imply that anything more than close friendship is involved.
    Of course, if one person is uncomfortable, then there's still a
    problem that should be discussed.
    
    On the other hand, certain unambiguously sexual things, like heavy
    kissing, foreplay, etc., indicate, to my way of looking at it,
    something beyond "just friend"-ship.  Personally, I've never been
    able to consider sexual partners as "mere" friends.  Maybe as friends
    in addition to lovers, but not just intimate friends.  I guess some
    people can.  As long as both parties understand and are comfortable,
    I don't see a problem.
    
    So I guess it boils down to this:  there are no rules.  If you are
    uncomfortable with the degree of intimacy (or lack of it), say so.
    If your friend is really a friend, he or she will understand.

I do beleive that two adults can maintain a "friendship" and still display
    minor physical affection towards eachother. The level of affection is
    where you tend to get into trouble. It is a rare relationship that
    can maintain physical contact and both parties remain uninvolved.
    
    In most cases, one of the people tend to get hurt. And a good
    friendship is now ruined because one of the friends started to care
    more than the other. If your relationship is truly a friendship,
    it will survive without physical contact. The old rule of " One thing
    can tend to lead to another" will do more damage than good. 
    
    It sounds to me that this man is interested in more than a friendship
    with you. Some people tend to abuse the word "friendship" in order
    to spend more time with another person. If he thought you would
    reject him by refusing to date him, then he will agree to what ever
    you want to call the relationship in order to spend time with you.
    What may be going on is he is just hoping you will change your mind.
    
    My advice, from experiance, is to not get physicaly involved with
    him. If you really don't have any more than a friendship interest
    in him , don't worry, it's ok to enjoy other people's company as
    friends. In the long run, a friend will last longer if it just stays
    friends. The best test of the the relationship is if you were involved
    with someone else and this person still came around as your friend.
    A true friend will stay with you a long time. If his interest is
    more, you may have to face the fact that this friendship won't be
    easy or may not even work at all.
    
    Good luck 
                                                      

    I've been monitoring this NOTES file for awhile, but until now,
    I haven't had the nerve to write in it. Your topic REALLY struck
    a soft spot with me, as I have found myself in this very situation.
    
    I have been seeing someone for a few months now. He recently told
    me that he didn't want to make any commitments, but still wanted
    to continue our "friendship", which, by the way does have alot of
    the characteristics you've explained.
    
    After reading your entry and the responses, I decided to have a
    talk with him and explain how I felt about our relationship. He
    agreed thta it wasn't the fairest of situations, but what can he
    do? Well, I am going out of town for vacation, so we will see if
    anything is different when I return.
    
    I also argree with you on the "having sex" or "making love" issue.
    In my opinion, there is DEFINATELY a difference. I feel that making
    love is far better than just having sex. It's like compairing an
    ice cream cone to a banana split! One is a treat, while the other
    is complete satisfaction!!
    
    Good luck with your situation, you may need it!!! 
     

	However, banana splits will make you fat :-)

I have not read through all responses.  The ones I have seen seem to agree that 
there is no real problem in expressing friendship in physical terms.

I agree.  There is not.  But, I have one question for someone who is as friendly
as your friend is - Is this person as friendly with all of his friends?  MAle 
and Female?

Most of the problem (other than commitmentphobia possibilities) could also 
rest with words.  English is a very nice language, with many words that define
absolutely specific meanings - but just as many words have much more 
ambiguous meanings.  In addition, even simple words have different meanings 
for each person - we all carry around our own dictionaries (you say 'bird' 
meaning robin, I hear 'bird' meaning 'giving the finger' - an exageration, yes,
but a point.

My personal belief is that I do not want to be someone's lover if I don't feel 
I can also be their friend - but even then, I have a choice:  Am I to be my 
lover's friend or my friend's lover.

My personal opinion - your 'friend' is confusing the concept of being a friend 
(my definition - a person we are connected with, care for, respect, admire) and 
being friendly (again, my definition - feeling affection for, but no real 
connection to).

Joe

    re .15:
    
    Making love can make you fat too.  :^)
    
    Elizabeth

    can abstaining make you thin or only give you  dreams and
    ulcers....sigh...

    What he's saying is "I want to have sex but I don't want to admit
    to any kind of "specialness" between us."
    
    A very common line to get a woman into bed is to appeal to her 
    alleged lack of sophistication.  He's trying to get her to believe
    that "Of COURSE friends can be intimate - what's the matter with
    YOU?"
    
    The problem starts the minute the woman thinks, "Hmm, what IS the matter
    with me?"
    
    Since women in our culture are traditionally bred to ignore their
    inner desires and live to please men, (to ultimately GET one for
    keeps), we can be very vulnerable to a man's appraisal of us no
    matter HOW ludicrous it looks on paper, (or in phosphorous!).
    If she doesn't like it, nothing else matters.  Not his views on
    friendship, not her level of sophistication - nothing.
    
    And for the record, if people had sex ONLY when they were in love,
    they'd be precious little of it around, no?  Friends can and do have
    sex, but only the friends that want to.
    
    

    Because women are RAISED to doubt themselves - even smart ones -
    and to believe that men are their saviors from a lifetime of boredom,
    loneliness, poverty, stares and whispers.  She is not a fool, she
    is a product of foolish, good old American upbringing.  The fact
    that she's questioning this shows that she has escaped with at least
    some vestiges of strength.  We're all fools, alright, the first
    time mother says, "girls don't run, sit down, be quiet, be pretty
    and don't go near the edge", and we shut up and sit down and be
    quiet, pretty and don't go near the edge.  Women are generally taught 
    to look to others for direction - never within ourselves.  We're
    bred to be "selfless" and "to love" and "to help" and this leaves
    us vulnerable to men. 
    
    I don't think the guy in question has "out-of-control male lust" at all.
    He's just naturally going to take satisfaction where he can find it.  
    What's wrong with that?  No one's going to get ANY sex without trying!
    
    That you, a person raised to trust yourself above all else sees her 
    as a "complete fool" shows just how brainwashed and benefitting to men 
    female upbringing can be.  Have you NEVER played on this inbred female 
    insecurity to your own ends, successfully or otherwise?  Ever??
                                                   

    And who is brainwashing all us poor females?   And who started it
    all? (I suppose we'll never know that answer)
    
    Noone keeps the downtrodden downtrodden like the downtrodden.
    
    --Louise

    I wouldn't call men slimy as much as simply opportunistic and that's
    actually a compliment.   You sound surprised that any man much less
    plenty of them would actually use guilt to get women into bed. 
    Since I assume not many men have tried getting YOU in to bed you
    kind of have to take a woman's word for it, no?  Anything at all
    can and will be used in a woman's lifetime to get her in to bed.
    You're assuming I mean every man will use anything.  No.  Every
    woman will have had everything used on her to lure her into bed.
    Guilt is one of the tamer methods she'll encounter.  Since anything
    CAN and WILL be used and you don't always know the good guys from
    the bad guys you're much safer in being initially wary of ANY line, 
    however sincere the guy actually meant it.
    
    Check out Womannotes topic "Your first lesson in sexism" for a little
    leeson in the "brainwashing" you deny exists.  Little girls start
    out as people but the majority are forced into an odd corner of
    life that nearly every one of them rebels against until the fight
    is gone and they "see the light".  And it doesn't stop when they
    leave the nest either.  It's not a familial situation but a cultural
    one.  Where the parents leave off the rest of the culture takes
    over.
    
    If any female has escaped this and has no idea what I'm talking
    about then lucky for you but you are in the minority.  No woman,
    raised to believe in herself and trust her own feelings and plot
    her own course is going to have trouble dealing with a guy's line
    like the author of this base note.  
    
    What you miss in your quick judgements, ("Why not call her a complete
    fool"), is her DESIRE to believe him.  A good rhetorical question
    might be "Why does she want so badly to believe him?"
    
    The base note is not really asking about what to do about him so
    much as what to do about her mixed feelings.  My advice is to trust
    your own feelings - always.
                                                         
    And nothing keeps the self-deluded self-deluded but the self-deluded
    but that's beside the point.  Once the wheels are put firmly in
    motion whether they're delusions of grandeur or feelings of
    worthlessness, they can be self-perpetuating, of course.  But stating
    that is pointless.  It doesn't help either the self-deluded or the
    downtrodden to see themselves from a different perspective.

>No, not many men have tried to get me into bed.  That doesn't
>mean I have to take a woman's word for it.  There are lots of
>other ways to find otu what men say to women when they want sex.

Such as?  Asking men?  Reading the letters in Penthouse?

>How many men have propositioned that woman??

What does this have to do with anything?

>You tone leads me to believe that you feel the man knowingly
>uses guilt to get sexual favors on the woman.  

Yes, you believe right.

>It couldn't be that his emotions are true, could it?  

It could be, but if he were open and honest about what he wanted with 
this woman, who is his friend don't forget, I'm sure that when she hesitated 
he would most likely continue to be open and honest and discuss it.  He 
doesn't seem willing to discuss it.  He seems to be declaring his feelings on 
the subject and insinuating there's something wrong with her if she doesn't 
feel the same way.  This attitude on his part tips me off against giving him 
the benefit of the doubt which I SURELY would give a guy who DID display
sincerity and concern for his friend's feelings.  

You're taking the situation out of the context it was presented and exploring 
all possibilities.  That's a waste of time when we have clues, (his cavalier 
attitude), to help us narrow down his possible intentions.

>Women are not stupid, if they choose to have sex with a 'friend',
>and that's what we're talking about here, then I must assume her
>decision was premeditated, unless she was forced into performing.

Don't assume this and don't assume it has anything to do with her level of
intelligence, either.  This is exactly the point I'm trying to make.  Women
have sex for MANY more reasons than simply desire.  One of those reasons
is the need to be acceptable to a guy after having been raised to believe 
that above all else, this is what she must be.  Sexual rejection to a man is
one thing, but to a woman, raised to believe she is nothing without a 
man, (_Why Do I Think I Am Nothing Without A Man_ by Dr. Penelope
Russianoff for all you reference freaks), rejection from a man, sexual
or otherwise is devastating to her entire sense of self worth.  Raised to
believe that only male love can rescue her from a certain life-sentence
of boredom, loneliness, poverty and despair, male approval, ANY male
approval, is of vital importance to what she perceives as the quality of 
her future.

Women have sex, (outside of committed relationships), more often to affirm 
their sense of self-worth and their ability to escape from potential 
"spinster-hood" than any other single reason.  The man involved is often 
secondary to the rejection and the resultant potentially lonely life she is 
desperately trying to avoid.

If your assumption that "she knew what she was doing" was correct, and her
decision was "premeditated", (which I think you mean to be "deciding yes 
after weighing all the odds"), then she would be able to take full
responsibility for her decision, cut her losses if she was unhappy and 
chalk it up to experience.  She hasn't done that.  She's wrestling with 
the situation.

>Right.  And just who states that brainwashing exists?  Any
>psycologists, psychiatrists, behaviour specialists, counselors
>or therapists of good reputation?  

Is that it?  You won't believe anyone but professionals of "good" repu-
tation?  There are countless books written by professionals of "great" 
reputation.  I've got a shelf in my home library devoted to them, I studied 
some of it in college.  Go to the library.  Go to the bookstore.  You can't 
NOT know these things exist if you say you insist on knowing their opinions!

>and also examine the contrary claims from other reputable experts.  
>Have you done that?  Can you do that?

Yes, I've done that.  I know Freud's theories, Maslow's, Skinner's, all
the "classic" theories and since leaving college I enjoy continuing with
all the contemporary theories of Kaplan, Horney, Russianoff, Dowling,
et. al.  How about your qualifications to back up YOUR theories?  No, wait,
you haven't presented any.  You're just trying to discredit mine.

>It's possible being a male denies me the ability or insight into seeing 
>what you're seeing.  

Yes, I'd say that's "possible".

>I do not know of any instances that agree with what you say is happenning.

And therefore you firmly disagree.  Now THAT'S pure scientific thinking!

>I get the impression that YOU believe the woman has no mind of her own.

Are we talking generally?  I don't believe that women have NO minds of
their own, but I do believe that the desires of little girls which are
as grandiose as any little boy's are eroded by their families and their
cultures.  It's this erosion, as in ...

"You can't be a doctor but you can be a nurse" - 
"Why don't you take secretarial courses instead of calculus?  It will really 
help you get a job after high school" - 
"You don't want to KISS a guy on the first date" - (SURE I do, ma!  :-) )

...that teaches women, even intelligent women, that their desires are 
"silly", "pointless", "dangerous", that they don't know what's best for 
them or what they really want.  

This self-doubt bred into them day in and day out doesn't just go away when 
men arrive on the scene.  They have some feelings about a situation, like the 
author of the base note has some about her situation, but they're not sure 
they're the RIGHT feelings.  

Women can become mistrustful of themselves, and can become very willing to 
hand over the responsibility for what they SHOULD be feeling to someone else 
because that is more familiar and therefore more comfortable.

>I thought you were telling her to trust YOUR feelings.  No?

Hell, no.  Hers are fine.  She knows what she wants.  She just needs to
believe herself more than she believes him.
    

    For a lot of the time that I have written in these files
    
     I have been able to be middle of the road or be a mediator...
    
    because the issues were sufficiently detached from where
    I was that they didn't hit me emotionally....
    
    but I cannot keep quite on this one....lots of young women
    give more that they wished they had to young men because the
    young man exaggerated (I first wrote *told lies* but that was
    20 years ago) his feelings and then didn't have the courage
    to admit what he had done the next morning...
    
    hey...*guys lie all the time to get women in bed with them*
    
    WHO ARE WE KIDDING... ???
    
    It is just that most of us are no longer in our teens or
    early twenties....
    
    when this happens the most...
    
    so we have a lot of women in their late twenties and thirties
    and yes, even forties...I was on the leading edge of the sixties
    and seventies revolution...
    
    who are still reacting to the clumsy lines of the guy who
    was first.....
    
    so now what...
    
    We have to trust the people we know now, and trust them and
    put away old problems..
    
    However, this becomes a problem when new relationships begin
    and the od issues are still unresolved...
    
    Bonnie

    Anyone mind if I go back and address the original question?
    
    There are *no* hard and fast rules about what is OK for "just
    friends" as opposed to lovers. All my friends are *not* equal,
    and I react to different friends in different ways and at
    different levels. Some I feel comfortable about kissing, more
    I feel comfortable about cuddling with, even more I feel
    comfortable about hugging (in this last case, male as well as
    female). Precious few I would feel comfortable about sleeping
    with.
    
    Don't think of it as "is this level of intimacy right for a
    friend", but rather as "is this level of intimacy right for
    *this person*".
    
    --- jerry

    Well I've been patiently (yet with much interest) reading through
    all the replies before entering my own, and then WHAM!!  .29 said
    it all!
    
    I feel exactly the same way about sharing different affections 
    with different people.  In the same vein that I share different 
    thoughts with different friends, I also share different levels 
    of physical contact with both male and female friends.  As with
    every type of relationship imagineable, it is all relative to
    the individuals involved.
    
    					Carla

    Would you sit and cuddle and hold hands with your friend of the
    same sex?   Personally, I believe a woman who can share
    physical intimacy and than believe she is emotionally distant
    is lying through her teeth.....

    	Actually, I have held hands with people of my own sex in
    	a completely non-sexual way.  I have one friend who always
    	sits very close to me; sometimes we'll watch tv together
    	and she'll lean against me.  Isn't this just one form of 
    	cuddling?  Expressing yourself physically does not mean
    	you are expressing yourself sexually.
    
    						Carla
    

I know lots of people who hold hands a lot, for instance when they are
praying...

Jim. 

    The stereotype of the male in our society is that real men never touch
    one another (so why are we always the first to stick out our hands
    when meeting people? ;-). Distance should always be maintained, right?
    So watch a group of men get drunk together. 
    
    The first indication that they are loosening up is an increase in
    casual contact, more hand shaking, high fives, back slapping and such.
    A little more imbibing brings on the bear hugs and arm over the
    shoulder "let me tell you" conversations. By the time they are all
    plastered, they can't seem to let go of one another (and it's not
    always because they can't stand on their own two feet :-). 
    
    Since intoxication brings about the release of inhibitions, is it not
    fair to say that most men would really prefer to have more physical
    contact with their friends? And why does society condone such contact
    only when men are drunk? 

    Paul.

    I know lots of women friends that I would love to have physical
    contact with.  But often I'm shy about admitting it, or afraid of
    being refused.  Or perhaps I'm afraid they'll then want more than
    I want to give.
    
    So most often I silently feel the attraction that I don't mention
    and don't act on.
    
    Anyone else here share this experience with your friends ?
    
    /Eric

    I have a VERY good friend whom I have known for almost 6 years. We have
    been through a lot together during that time and we're extremely close.
    I admit, I was very attracted to him for all the obvious reasons when
    we first met but now, he's like another part of me (I hate to say
    'brother' but...something like that). 
    
    After the first year we 'DID THE THING' once...and were so embarrased
    afterward, that experience scared us away from any sexual involvement
    (with each other :-) )for 3 years.  We were both afraid of losing our
    friendship because of plain old sexual feelings.  The past year and a
    half, however, we've been flirting more and more, doing SO-like things
    together, even sleeping togther, and yet I don't feel any great sexual
    passion for him (I don't think he feels any for me either) but I care
    so much...I don't know, people tell me that we'd be the perfect couple,
    and that many married couples don't understand each other as well as we
    do... 
    
    Got off the track there...                  
    
    He's my best friend...and until recently my lover.  And our friendship
    didn't blow up, nor am I more than the tiniest bit jealous of his
    dating other women, nor has he admitted his being jealous of my seeing
    other men.  We've even encouraged each other to make things work with
    our SOs' and I really glad we've experienced everything we have. I find
    that I only doubt our relationship when I try to explain it to the
    curious, who ask "well what's wrong with him?"  We're FRIENDS above all
    else.  And that means different things to each of us out there. 
    
    
    
    
    

    re: -1
    
    It's nice to know that others have had that real close friendship
    with the op.sex. Unfortunately one can mistake that great friendship
    and occasional sex for a foundation for marriage. I know, I married
    (and divorcd) my best friend. It took me two years to come to 
    accept that he'd never be anything more than my friend.
     ...tough lesson to learn. Where were the Notes when I made that choice?