Conference quark::human_relations-v1

You'll find a rather lengthy discussion on tattoos in the Heavy_Metal
conference.....(KP7 to add and all that jazz)

You'll find, first of all, that tattoos are a very personal thing.  Never
ask someone where they have their tattoo.....If you do, I promise you'll
have more than hell to pay.  :-)

Someday I'd like to get a tattoo..the only thing holding me back is that 
I don't know WHAT I want the tattoo to be...but I do know where I want it.
The initial pain is also a consideration as I am a BIG WHIMP when it comes
to pain.

To me, a tattoo is a form of expressionism.  Where I have my tattoo and what
it will be, to those who see it, will tell a lot about me, my attitudes, my
thoughts.....

I'm definately not into plastering them all over my body, on me, something
like that would make me feel gawdy....but I have seem some men that have
many tattoos and found some of them to be rather attractive.

/kath

RE: .1 Andy Leslie

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder!  

/kath

    There was also a discussion of women and tatoos in womannotes
    some time ago.
    
    Bonnie

    
    I have a tattoo of Mickey Mouse on my left upper arm. I guess I
    was trying to make a statement when I got it.
       My SO has a small crescent moon surrounded by stars on her right
    ankle. Many tattoo studios allow you to design your own.
    
    RE: It is very difficult and expensive to have a tattoo removed,
    so the important thing is to be very sure you want one and take
     alot of time deciding what to get.
    
    
      To me, tattoos are an art form, and like all art forms,  I've
    seen some I love and some I don't like at all.
    
      There is another tattoo that I would like to get on my other arm,
    but it costs $275 which is a little steep for me. Maybe after I
    become rich I'll get it. :-)
    
    -Joe
    

    Tattoo's can be expressive as well as decorative.  I got my first
    (and so far only) tattoo as a 20th birthday gift.   That one
    is an "expressive" tattoo.
    
    I do plan to get another one (two's the limit) in the very near
    future.
           
    My personal opinion: A nice tattoo on women is sexy.
    
    CC
    
          
     
    
    

    ooops, I forgot to mention, I'm am Woman!
    

Re: .2

> You'll find a rather lengthy discussion on tattoos in the Heavy_Metal
> conference.....(KP7 to add and all that jazz)

Kath, "KP7 to add and all that jazz" won't do a thing for any of us, unless
your reply is "fixed" to allow KP7 to work :-) 
    
> You'll find, first of all, that tattoos are a very personal thing.  Never
> ask someone where they have their tattoo.....
    
There's a discussion going on in the Moderators' Conference around this
very issue, and I have to admit I still don't understand.
    
If someone came up to me and announced that she had just gotten a
tattoo, my first inclination would be to ask where it was.
    
I would assume that if her tattoo was so personal, that she'd be offended 
by my asking where it was, then she wouldn't have told me about it in
the first place. 
    
Can you tell me what I'm missing here?
     
  Alan
      

>Kath, "KP7 to add and all that jazz" won't do a thing for any of us, unless
>your reply is "fixed" to allow KP7 to work :-) 

DECWindows isn't allowing me to add a conference pointer to the note...
Heavy Metal is located at HELPME::HEAVY_METAL.


If someone bops up to you and says they have a tattoo, they basically
have opened the discussion for where/what it is.....and should not be 
offended, unless the question of WHERE is it, is asked in a rather lewd
way (I've been asked where I want mine...if the question is genuine interest,
I'll tell the person, if its a suggestive question, they will never find out)

>There's a discussion going on in the Moderators' Conference around this
>very issue, and I have to admit I still don't understand

Haha...I know how that one got started!  :-)  I haven't been in there in 
months...time to pop back.  :-)

/kath

    
    
    Well although I don't have a tattoo I do have a few thoughts.
    I think maybe one or two small tattoos on a woman may be attractive.
    Something like what Cher has is gross.  A friend of mine had a small
    yellow rose put on the back of her right shoulder.  It looked nice.
    All over the body (whether on a man or a woman) in my opinion is
    not attractive at all.
    
    I personally wouldn't get one because I couldn't handle the pain!
    
    	JJ
    

Body Paint and so forth is expressive... and can be good or bad...

A tattoo, is self mutilation...

Jim.

    I agree with those who think that one or two small, tasteful tatoos
    can be attractive, but huge tatoos or a lot of tatoos covering the
    body looks grotesque to me, on both men and women.  I hate to see
    tatoos of snakes, skulls, ex-girlfriends names, or other gross things.
    
    It isn't tatoos in particular that I find unattractive.  But,
    unfortunately many women whom I've seen have tatoos are also dressed
    unattractively (to me) in leather and chains and driving Harley's.
     I know that's a stereotype, but like most stereotypes there's a
    reason for it, because there are some people like that, and I think
    that type of look on a woman is ugly.  And, many of the women I've
    seen dressed that way seem to be homely and overweight as well.
     But, if a tatoo is combined with attractive clothing on an attractive
    woman, it could look okay.  (I'm attempting to be open minded.)
    
    Personally, I would never want a tatoo because of (a) the pain and
    (b) the permanency (I'm afraid I'd get sick of it after awhile).
    
    Re Alan, it seems to me that if a woman has the nerve to have a
    tatoo on her rear-end or breast, that she should have the nerve
    to admit it's there!  :-)  It's nobody's business, perhaps, but
    I don't see why it should be a big deal either.  (Although, some
    people with tatoos in private places may want to use them as a means
    to keep intimates quiet, by saying something like, "If a lot of
    people suddenly know about this tatoo, I'll know you talked!" - I
    actually had a *guy* say that to me once.  I didn't talk either -
    until *now*!) :-)
    
    Basically, I think I like tatoos better on men than on women.  But,
    I don't really like them even then.  I'm female, no tatoos.
    
    Lorna
    

 I have never been a big fan of tatoos on women. Most women who get them seem
to be what I consider to be tough looking. I am not attracted to women who
are "tough." This is fortunate, because they are not attracted to me. :-)

 I also consider them to be primarily lower class fodder. (I can hear the rock
gathering now) This doesn't mean that you are necessarily low class in my eyes
if you have a tatoo; it just means that I have seen a correlation between
tatoo wearers and low class people.

 This is purely subjective- no logic involved (so don't try to argue with
my feelings). On logical matters, I can be swayed, but it will do no good to
argue about how I feel.

 The Doctah

    I have fond memories of a tatoo on a friend of mine.  It was a devil on
    his upper arm.  He was a devil, and had a sparkle in his eye for many
    years.  He died a young man, he never grew up.  
    
    The devil (drugs and alcohol) got him in the end...I miss him.

    Well, geeze, I guess you'll all just have to meet me and see how
    tough I am. Leather, feathers, tatoo and all. And I thought I was
    the "girl next door" type. liesl

	I do not consider tattoos or pierced ears self-mutilation, and
	even if it were, so what?  What I do to my body is my business
	and no one else's.

	I've seen some pretty gawdy tattoos on women which I found were
	tasteless and disgusting.  Snakes wrapped around one's torso is
	a bit much.  I've also seen gorgeous pieces of artwork.  It all
	is in the name of personal preference and taste.  Personally, I
	doubt I'll ever get one.  My tastes change too often for me to
	brand myself for life.

	The biggest difference between tattooed people and non-tattooed 
	people is that tattooed people don't care if non-tattooed people 
	don't have tattoos.  (The word tattoo begins to look weird when
	you type it over and over again.)

							   Carla

    I agree that some tattoo's can get pretty out of hand.
    
    All the tattooed women I know (myself included) are all classy 
    ladies.  We have NO history of being "lower class" ever; nor do we
    intend to let the fact that we've made an addition to our 
    small, pettite, feminine bodies lead us to believe that we are!
    
    As far as self-mutilation goes, not if it's professinally done.
     :-)
    
    CC
    
    
    

       
    RE:> 14.  consider them to be primarily lower class fodder.
    
       I'm sorry you feel that way....I came from a middle to upper
    class family and have continued to keep myself {with a lot of hard
    work} in that class.  Even with my tattoos, I feel comfortable in
    jeans to evening gowns!!!  
    
    
       Speaking for myself......I have a total of five {yes, 5} tattoos.  
     Each and every one has a special meaning to me.
     A {slightly sick} joke between my mother and I was that if
    I was ever shot up, they could piece me back together....
       { I was going into the service}                                                
    
        The reason for this joke is that I have a rose located on my
    left ankle....a cross with a heart and two flowers located on my
    left wrist.....a rose bracelet on my right wrist.....a 1" horse
    located on my right hip..... and last but not least, I have a heart
    with a daggar through it on the right side of my chest!  
       After I received my first, my mother fell in love with it....
     so when she went out to Colorado, she designed her own and at the
    age of 62 had her first tattoo done!!  
    
        Maybe, I'm getting the wrong impression from some of these replys
    but it seems that a lot of people feel that a woman is less of a
    woman because she has a tattoo.....well, I'm sorry some people feel
    this way....because with or without my tattoos,  I am still every
    inch a woman!! 
       
                  
                                 Tattooed and PROUD OF THEM!!!
    

"I do not consider tattoos or pierced ears self-mutilation, and	even if it were,
so what?  What I do to my body is my business and no one else's."

Why so it is!  I certainly wasn't suggesting that it was my business; but I am
really an opinionated sucker. :-)

Perhaps I should clarify myself...

Tattooing, by virtue of the process, is self mutilation.  And to the fact that
the majority of them are done when the 'recipient' is stoned or drunk out of
their mind, and that the majority of them are skulls, daggers, hearts, names of
girls who will be long forgotten except for the tatto, snakes, names of ships,
mother...

That's self mutilation.  A lot of it is in the attitude.  Small discret
decorations are not as bad except that they are still technically self
mutilation.

Pierced ears.... same thing, except that you can take them off.  Pierced noses,
etc ... same thing.

Now, ear rings, ear cuffs, etc... no problem.  Why do people get their ears
pierced when their are other methods of securing your body decoration?  Because
they see a particular set of ear pins they *have* to have?

Part of my feeling is no doubt because I am a very 'conservative' dresser.  Not
according to any particular style or fashion, but plain, simple and functional.
I don't wear much jewelry as a matter of course, and I have better things to
spend my money on.

But I *am* curious about various people's tattoos...  :-( liesl declined to show
me hers :-( (you forgot to tell them about your shoelaces, liesl)

Jim.

>           <<< Note 853.12 by YODA::BARANSKI "To Know is to Love" >>>

>A tattoo, is self mutilation...


	 So is shaving my legs.


	 :-)

	 /kath

>           <<< Note 853.22 by YODA::BARANSKI "To Know is to Love" >>>


>Tattooing, by virtue of the process, is self mutilation.  And to the fact that
>the majority of them are done when the 'recipient' is stoned or drunk out of
>their mind, and that the majority of them are skulls, daggers, hearts, names of
>girls who will be long forgotten except for the tatto, snakes, names of ships,
>mother...

This is a SEVERE misconception.  First off, almost every tattoo parlor will
refuse to serve a customer if they are drugged out/drunk.  And the ones that
WILL, are not ones that most people would frequent....(can you say DISEASES?)
You will also find that many tattoos are VERY tasteful...the problem is that
the people with tattoos that you can SEE tend to be semi-tasteless in a
lot of people's eyes.  You would be surprised at the number of people that
have tattoos that you can't see..that ARE very tasteful...as Liesl mentioned
she has tattoos...I would like a tattoo.....using the two of us as examples
I would hardly say that we were into self-mutilation, nor are we low-class...
nor are we anything less than very feminine....

>Now, ear rings, ear cuffs, etc... no problem.  Why do people get their ears
>pierced when their are other methods of securing your body decoration?  Because
>they see a particular set of ear pins they *have* to have?

Perhaps because it's more comfortable to have a hole in your ear, than having
something pinching our ear?  Because pierced earrings are lighter?  Perhaps
they are mover versatile?

/kath

Re: .22:

>Pierced ears.... same thing, except that you can take them off.  Pierced noses,
>etc ... same thing.

	OUCH!  Under no conditions would I consider taking my ears off...
	talk about self mutilation!  :-)

     Sharon

    I have a young lady friend with a little tattoo on her shoulder.
    It shows that a tattoo on a woman *can* be pretty nice.  When she
    wears an off-the-shoulder sweatshirt, it looks...sooooooo nice. :-) :-)
    
    B.
    

    I like little, discreet and mysterious ones.
    
    But I don't have one.....
    
    *yet*.
    
    Carol

    
    Well I love Tattoo's.  In fact I have a couple of them.  I got my first
    one when I was 29 years old then the other on my 32nd birthday.  I
    subscribe to Tattoo magazine and am currently seeing a very lovely
    lady who by the way is and I quote "A high tech professional" who also
    has a couple of tattoo's.  To look at her you would think she would
    not be the "TYPE" and to look at me is another story in it's self.
    
    RE: Kat.   Go for the tattoo and when I get to Colorado I just might
    show you mine. :-)
    
    P.S.  I am the typical steryotype "HARLEY" rider on weekends but you
          would never know it during the week.
    
    Steve

RE: ,29 Steve "Sl*t" Thompson... :-)



	 And I bet you wear polyester pants and wide ties during the
	 week, right?  :-)

	 /kath_couldn't_resist

    	I have received several mail messages asking "why" I wanted
    to get this information and thought I should respond here.
    	I have a 13 year old daughter who has been discussing the idea
    of having a tattoo.  She says that many of her friends are wearing
    them and that she wasn't sure how she felt about getting one.
    	Although she lives with her mother, I am happy that she has
    come to me for imput.  I told her of our column and she agreed to
    wait a few weeks and see what the "professional" community thinks.
    	She said it would not be the deciding factor in her decision
    but that it would help her.
    	Also want to thank those that have and will contribute to this
    and if you feel funny about responding here you may send me mail
    directly.
    
    Thanks,
    Mike

    
       To Me, 
                 I'm 38yrs old, been in the Navy 4 yrs and had plenty
    of chances to get a tattoo, but I never did!! And I'm proud that
    my body is still all natural(no tattoo's or scares). To me, a body
    that has no paint on it is very beautiful!! Especially Women's!!!
    
    There's nothing wrong with tattoo's except on my body!!!!
    
                                        Tim

    The only suggestion I'd make is: remind her that, if she chooses
    a tattoo, she'd better really like the design she picks -- tattoos
    *are* (for the most part) permanent.  It's very difficult to change 
    one's mind after the fact.  Impress this upon her if you can....
    
    (It was the same process I went through when I thought about getting a
    tattoo myself.)
    
    If she decides to get a tattoo, then you might suggest these
    guidelines:  keep the tattoo relatively small, keep the design
    simple, and locate it on a slightly discrete part of the body.
    
    That way, if she wants to cover it, it will be a little easier.
    I have several female friends with tattoos.  Their tattoos are
    small, simple and discrete -- as a matter of fact, they're usually
    hidden under normal street wear (but not under bathing suits).
    
    So -- help her to understand her decision, then remember: ultimately,
    it's her decision.
    
    For the record: my personal feelings about tattoos on women. I like
    them; not sure why, but I find them very provocative.
    
    					andrew

    	The thing that's always bothered me about tattoos is the
    *permanency* involved.  Throughout our whole lives, we are constantly
    changing:  large ways, small ways, and often in ways we don't even
    notice at the time.  I've never been able to imagine *any* drawing or
    sketch that I would want forever and ever imprinted on my body.


    	As for one on a female's body, I don't suppose I would stop seeing
    someone if I discovered a tattoo that was small, nice, and discretely
    placed on her person.  However, I definitely *much* prefer the "au
    naturel" look!


    	Uhh, yeah -- I'm male!  ;-)


    Brian

    I've seen some very ugly tattoos, and some very attractive ones; some
    on men, some on women. They don't particularly fascinate me, but they
    don't repel me either. I certainly don't think any differently of
    tattoos on women than of tattoos on men.
    
    The one point I'd want someone to keep in mind before having a tattoo
    (or getting ears/noses/whatever pierced, for that matter) is that it is
    permanent. While people have had tattoos successfully removed, I
    believe it's usually a much more unpleasant (and expensive) procedure
    than having the tattoos applied - and if the tattoo is very large,
    and/or if the person is prone to scarring, complete removal might not
    be possible at all. (People say that pierced ears will "close up" if
    you don't wear earrings, but believe me, that isn't always true
    either.)
    
    I'll admit to having been intrigued by the idea of a tattoo, but, as
    someone else said, I think I'd get tired of whatever it was after a
    while. (Unless it was somewhere where *I* couldn't see it, I suppose!)
    
    So - for anyone interested in this sort of thing, I'd suggest trying
    temporary body-ornaments first: there are some very nice decal-type
    "tattoos" (no, not those awful Easter-egg-type ones we had as
    kids), which will stay on through several washings; or there are
    various kinds of body paint. Either of these could let the wearer
    decide whether s/he liked the reactions from others.
    
    I suspect, however, that if it's a group of friends discussing the
    idea, they're more interested in the concept of a "blood ritual" of
    sorts; it might be the idea of sharing in an unusual experience that
    appeals to them, rather than of gaining a body ornament. (I'm not sure
    what to do if that's the case. Maybe suggest that they get matching
    jackets with their names on them instead? ;-) )
    
    -beth

    I have a tattoo on my left shoulder blade.  It is a red rose in full
    bloom along with a bud on a stem.  It also has a small thorn.  I gave a
    lot of thought to getting this, as I will be having it for a long time. 
    I don't regret it and I still like it as much as I did the day I got
    it.
    
    About getting a second one, I don't know.  It would have to be
    something real special, because like I said, once it's there, it's
    going down with me.
    
    pat

    RE: daughter...
    
    A suggestion: ask her what a future boyfriend *might* think of the
    tattoo and of her if she got a tattoo.
    
    B.

    I really think 13 is too young to get something as permanent as
    a tattoo.  Looking way, way, way, back in time, now, I hate to imagine
    what I might have chosen if I had gotten a tattoo when I was *13*.
    People can change their likes and interests too much between age
    13 and adulthood to make permanent choices, IMO.  I would tell her
    to wait until she's 18, at least, and then if she still wants one
    to decide on it then.  In the meantime, couldn't she just shave
    her head, or have her hair spiked, or have 4 more holes made in
    her ears, or just buy a leopard mini-skirt or something?
    
    Lorna
    

         I have to agree. She may kick herself for years, if she makes a
    life-long choice when she is so young.
    
                                           Greg

    Interesting topic...
    
    In general...
    
    I think they have a  negative association with rough, masculine,
    sailors/VET, biker type characters
    
    On a man...
    
    I tend to think they're a macho type thing
    
    On a women..
    
    I agree with the others who said "...I like little, discreet and
    mysterious ones"...the type that are usually out of sight so become a
    "secret or privilege" to view. They can be sexy if tasteful, feminine,
    and playful.
    
    On a child/adolecent..
    
    no way...make them wait till they can vote or use the 
    temporary/washable types if anything.  If I saw one visible on a 
    young teenage girl I'd probably think she's out of control and headed 
    for trouble.
    
    
        

    I tend to agree with previous notes that 13 is a bit young to make a
    decision about a tattoo. What about getting your daughter a five year
    supply of the washable tattoos....they have them in some stores and I
    saw them at Old Orchard Beach (I was tempted to buy one and wear it to
    work on my return to see what the reaction would have been....).
    
    Would I ever get one....no way, I hate pain!  I've dated men who have
    had tattoos and they didn't bother me, and I know women who have
    tattoos and that doesn't bother me either.  It's all up to individual
    taste.  Afterall, look where Cher has her's.
    
    P.
    

    I have two daughters
    
    19, 16
    It is inconceivable to me that either of them would choose to have a
    tattoo. I would be very very saddened if either of them did, but
    certainly the 19 year old has the 'right' to choose to and I would have
    no alternative but to live with it. The sadness would come from what it
    would mean to HER that she had done that to her body. I can't put it
    into words but for *her*(not necessarily others) to consider a tattoo
    would indicate a profound emotional insecurity that would be very
    unsettling. 
    Our 16 yr old simply doesn't have the right to choose something like
    that for herself yet, and I would certainly explore suing a tattoo
    parlor if it happened.
    In case it helps draw a picture of our homelife, I will add that last
    weekend our 16 yr old went to a substantial party where there was to be
    drinking. She doesn't drink. My wife's questions about the details of
    the party were finally interrupted by "Mom, if you don't stop asking
    questions you are liable to ask a question that I will lie to, and I
    don't want to do that. You have to trust me."
    We do trust her and my wife stopped asking questions. Trust is earned.
    If she came home with a tattoo that trust would GO BY THE BOARDS.
    I think your 13 year old daughter is testing the relationship with one
    or more parent. I also think the fact that she is associating with
    other kids her age who have tattoos is very frightening!
    I strongly urge you to very clearly tell her that when she is 18/21 she
    can alter her body if she choses, until then she has no freedom in the
    matter.
    
    				good luck
    				herb

    OK, I give in.   WHERE does Cher have a tattoo???
    (send mail if putting the answer here would offend 
    the delicate sensibilities of noters or moderators)
    
    
    			Nigel

    Naw post it....Where does Cher have the tatoo?
    

    
    
    Watch her new video and you'll see it.
    
    ed

    I have a question here.  How can tatoo stay on permenantly?  I thought
    that our metabolism will replace our skin every coupla weeks?
    
    Eugene

    A tattoo is ink injected below the part of the skin that grows out.
    That's why it's really important, if you want to be ultra-safe,
    to bring your own needles if you are going to have a tattoo done,
    so you don't get a disease (or check with someone who has been there
    and who you trust before you decide not to bring your own).
    
    I have thought about getting a little rose tattoo on my chest, but
    vetoed it due to the outcries of some of the men I knew at the time
    who thought it would be "gross".  (Alas, I, too, succumb to pper
    pressure).  I don't have a problem with other people having tasteful
    or artistic tattoos, in fact, theres a woman in our group
    who has a nice blue/black hawk on the span of skin between her thumb
    and forefinger.  I think it's really cool, and seems to suit her
    well.

    -Jody
    

    Jody
    I have never heard of investing in your own needles!!  If someone wants
    a tattoo, they need to check out the shop and make sure the needles are
    autoclaved after each use. 
    as for removing them, I used to work in an operating room.  they use an
    instrument that looks like a wood plane, and they plane off the tatoo.
    another way they use is to apply a viscious acid that burns it off.
    either way scars, badly.
    
    I agree with the consenus that 13 is really awfully young on deciding
    on a tattoo that will be there forever. If she insist, suggest a nice
    hidable location, like her shoulder blade.  then it can always be out
    of site unless she means it to be seen. 
    
    I have three roses, all descretly located. two on my right sholder
    blade and a little bitty one that only shows if I wear low cut v-necks
    :-) I love them, I've had them for over 16 years and don't regret them.  
    
    I also am a woman who no one would ever guess that I have tattoos so
    belong in the sisterhood with Lisel.
    
    vivian

    My opinion regarding a 13yr old getting a tattoo.  I think 13 is
    a little to young to make such a decision.  Like many people mentioned,
    it is a permanent thing.  
    
    Even though it was many years ago that I got my first tattoo (and
    then it was a gift) evertime I look at it, I have to smile.  I brings
    back a FLOOD of memories about those days.
           
    My decision to get a second one (now that I'm older and wiser) :-)
    is because *I* think they can be just dainty and feminine (if done
    right).  And I want this one to be where it can be seen in the summer
    months.
    
    CC
    
    

    I think tattoos are great!
    
    On other people.
    
    I particularly like the all-body oriental tattoos like the Japanese
    yakuza wear. 
    
    It's all depends on the quality of the artwork, to me.
    
    -roger
    

Generally, I'd have to say I don't like tattoos.  As far as tattoos
on women go, I have seen a couple of small, discreetly placed tattoos
that were very nice.  In this case, they were flowers on the ankle 
and back of the shoulder.

The ankle tattoo I saw was a blooming red rose, and it looked
nice, tasteful, and feminine under a casual black sandal.  I doubt,
however, that it would have looked as tasteful if the woman had been
wearing a tailored suit, nylons, and pumps.  That is not a stereotype,
it's fashion convention - with tattoos as with wood jewelry.  If
you break the "rules", then you are making a statement.  Your daughter
may or may not feel comfortable with that when she's interviewing for 
a job at, say, a bank.

I think removable tattoos are a nice idea, and far preferable if peer 
pressure is the primary motivation behind wearing one.  

I'm female.

	Sharon  

    
    RE: Cher
    
    Cher has a total of 5 tattoo's and the one on her cheeks is just one
    tattoo I believe.  
    
    
    Steve

    With the gradual depletion of the ozone layer, the risk of skin cancer
    is on the rise.  I think it is imperative that anyone who wants a nice
    tan should get it via tattoo rather than the beaches.
    
    Eugene
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    :-)

    
    	well, FWIW...I find tattoos to be gross.  (i'm a woman)
    	Although a friend of mine has one of Chester Cheetah on
    	his left shoulder that looks good, I find the majority of
    	them to be gross.  ...don't really know why, I just don't
    	find them attractive.
    
    	As for one on a woman, I'm jumping on the bandwagon.  A
    	small, feminine one could be attractive if placed in the
    	appropriate "area", but large and highly visible seems a 
    	bit vulgar to me.
    
    	/Kim (a.k.a. Tigga~~~)
    
                                  

I think a 13 yr old is old enough to start making decisions for her/himself.
But the decision should never be a flippant one.....Make sure she knows the
consequences of her actions......Make sure she's willing to live with any
decision she makes.

Children have to start growing up sometimes...I think its better for a child
to make a concious, adult decision about a thing like this than to be 
sheltered forever by a parent.

As long as she's fully aware of all consequences.....and aware of how YOU
feel about it, the decision should be hers to make......what a way for 
a child to learn maturity and taking responsibility for her actions!

/kath

	Children should be taught responsibility, but in the form of a
	permanent mark on one's body at age 13?!  That's a bit too much 
	responsibility for a child.  And at 13, one is still very much 
	an immature entity.  

	To make sure "she's willing to live with the consequences" is 
	moot.  Of course she's going to think she is, she's barely in
	junior high!  What can she possibly understand about permanent 
	un-alterable consequences?

							   Carla

    I agree with Kathy and Carla.  I made decisions at 13 thinking that 
    I was mature enough to handle any consequences that arose.  To this 
    day, 14 years later, I regret them.
    
    *sigh*
    
    Carol

    Oops!
    
    I agree with Kathy that 13 year olds have to grow up sometime and not
    be sheltered forever.  They have to be allowed to make decisions that
    concern themselves.
    
    And I agree with Carla that 13 is still a bit young.  I use myself as
    an example to stress that point, since I made some boo-boos that I
    have no choice but to live with for the rest of my life.
    
    To grasp whatever grace is left in getting out of a rock and a hard
    place :-) it depends on the kid.  But even *that* is not a guarantee.
    
    Carol
    

.31>	I have a 13 year old daughter who has been discussing the idea
.31>    of having a tattoo.  She says that many of her friends are wearing
.31>    them and that she wasn't sure how she felt about getting one.

    	I went back and re-read .31 (why this note was started) and
    one thing that jumps out at me is that she *wasn't sure* how she
    felt about getting one.  If that's the case, I'd advise her to
    wait.  13 is pretty young to make a decision to do something that
    will be permanent, especially when that decision stems from what 
    her peers are doing.  At least with pierced ears, you can choose 
    not to wear the earrings (yeah, the hole is still there, but it's 
    a heck of a lot less noticeable).

    	I don't particularly care for tattoos, but I too have seen
    some nice, small ones on women that were pretty tastefully done.

    	amy

    I like tattoos, although I don't have any myself.  I've always wanted
    to get one, but it would have to be removed if I should die, because
    I couldn't be burried in a Jewish cemetary with one on my body.
    
    My fiance has a tattoo (he's not Jewish) of a pegasus on his left
    shoulder.  It's beautiful and I really like it a lot.  He got it
    when he was out in California about 5 years ago.  It has started
    to fade and he'd love to have it recolored.  Does anyone know of
    a place that would recolor his tattoo.  He's asked a few places,
    but they didn't want to mess with someone else's work.
    
    A reply via mail would be appreciated.
    
    Thanks in advance,
    Lori B.

      I have always wanted to get a tattoo on my breast or shoulder.
    But now with the AIDS risk, I don't know if I ever will...how
    could you be sure that the needle was sterile?
    
    				Carol

You can never be 100% sure about anything these days, can you?  But, in 
most states, tattoo parlors have to meet certain regulations on cleanliness
and such.....I imagine that you can be pretty close to 100% sure that 
it's okay if you check out the rep of a tattoo parlor.

kath

    re: sterile needles 
    
    It's not uncommon to see an autoclave in tattoo parlors nowadays.
    
    A tattooist I know keeps it even simpler -- he never reuses his needles.
    It's marginally more expensive, and much safer.
    
    					andrew

    My daughter's 19 year old friend has a 2" tattoo of the pink panther on
    her right shoulder blade.  I must admit it looks rather attractive on
    the body of a young woman.  But, who is to say when she reaches the age
    of 50 or 60 she will have a body like Jane Fonder?  The majority of
    elderly women do not.  The picture of her at 60, with a saggy, wrinkly
    pink panther on her shoulder does not seem so appealing.
    
    Just my opinion.
    
    Angela.
    
    

    	I want to take a minute to thank everyone for their responses.
     I have been letting my daughter read the replies (minus the names).
     	On Saturday I will give her any that arrive this week.  When
    we meet on Sunday ( another weekend father) we will discuss it.
    	Some people have stated that I should "tell" her that she is
    to young and refuse to let her have one.  The problems with that
    solution are numerous. One of which would be her getting one just
    because I said "no".  Also she is very mature and responsible and
    I feel we can come to an agreement that is best for both of us.
    	On Monday I will enter a note letting everyone know what the
    outcome has been.
    
    Thanks again,
    Mike

    We were sixteen and figured we'd be sixteen for the rest of our
    lives.
    
    A friend of mine, in a fit of rebellion, shaved his head and had a
    spider in its web tattooed onto his head.  We thought it was hilarious.
    He thought it was cool, radical and bitchin'.  His hair grew over the
    tattoo and nobody could tell it was there.  He also had a tattoo of an
    eagle scratched onto his forearm. 
    
    We're both 29 now.  Last time I saw him he was a senior engineer for a
    company in Toronto.  He tells me he regrets his immature stupidity.
    He never wears short sleeve shirts to work and never rolls up his
    sleeves.  He's self concious of the perception it would give if
    anyone with whom he worked were to discover his now faded eagle.
    He wears sweat shirts to company picnics no matter what the temperature
    is and never goes swimming.
    
    To make matters worse for him, his hairline is receding.  In five
    years the spider will be noticable.  I told him that Gorbachev would
    be envious, but it wasn't that funny to him.
    
    What was once cool, radical and bitchin' is now vulgar, detrimental
    and embarassing.
    
    Kris

    
    Re:69
    >> I have been letting my daughter read the replies...
    
    Are family members/relatives allowed to read notes from DEC employee
    conferences ?
    
    From:
    (A co-mod of another notesfile who's not sure of all the rules.)Thanx!

Re: .71

According to the rules, no.

		Steve - co-moderator

    does it matter in this case?

    There's also a pro golfer(Arnold palmer?) that always has a bandaid on
    his forearm when you see him on TV guess whats under it? A tattoo.
    I have several uncles that got em when they were young all of them
    regret them now that they are old men. My brother in-law has a born
    to raise hell tattoo on his forearm now he's ordained and less than
    proud of it.
    I for reasons I'm not sure of have suddenly lost intrest in several 
    women over the years when I discovered they had tattoos.
    
    If I were in the position you daughter is in my parents would have
    clamped down and said "NO and someday you'll understand why".
    They hardly ever said that but funny as it seems they were right
    about every time I can remember they did.
    
    IMHO tattoos are disgusting, Jerry

     My general philosophy on "uniqueness" is that I don't need to have
    "things" to prove I'm different. (I think that's self evident. :-)
    
     I don't need a tatoo, or certain clothes, or a certain haircut, or an
    earring to assert my differences with other people. Perhaps that's
    because of the environment I grew up in. It was very stable. As I grew
    up, I thought everybody had such an environment- this is obviously not
    true.
    
     I find that my thoughts, ideas and actions are sufficient to
    distinguish me from my peers. I do more or less what I want, and try
    not to worry too much about how I look doing it. (With varying degrees
    of success). To me, what you do and how you act are more important than
    what you look like doing it. I know everybody does not agree with this,
    and that some people have differing priorities.
    
     I personally would not allow any of my daughters to make such a
    permanent decision as getting a tatoo at 13. If one were to do it
    anyway, there would be consequences. It is my opinion that 13 year olds
    tend to make decisions based on criteria of temporary importance, and
    often regret their decisions at a later time. I would not want to be in
    the position of having been able to stop such a permanent mistake.
    
     As your circumstances, ideals, and particulars are different than
    mine, you may not find my thoughts to be particularly applicable or
    practicable. As they say "your mileage may vary."
    
     The Doctah

>    <<< Note 853.75 by WAHOO::LEVESQUE "You've crossed over the river..." >>>
>
>     My general philosophy on "uniqueness" is that I don't need to have
>    "things" to prove I'm different. (I think that's self evident. :-)

	 But, Doctah....we're discussing WANTing a tattoo, not NEEDing
	 one...I don't think anyone NEEDs anything like that, but if
	 they WANT it, then it should be their decision....and also a
	 decision they will have to live with.

	 
>Perhaps that's
>   because of the environment I grew up in. It was very stable. As I grew
>   up, I thought everybody had such an environment- this is obviously not
>   true.

	 Wanting a tattoo, or an earring, or a different haircut is
	 not a matter of how stable, or unstable a person is....its a
	 matter of personal preference.  No one is doing it to be
	 "accepted", they are doing if because they WANT to.

	 In fact, if anything, I almost find that it is a MORE stable
	 attitude to have the guts to express yourself in many
	 different ways......Walking down the street you, Doctah,
	 would probably blend right into the crowd....however someone
	 willing to express themselves in some of the more obvious
	 ways, has the guts to put up with the ribbing and joking that
	 people who don't understand give them.  Its takes a very
	 strong person to be laughed at, and to still believe in
	 themself.

	 kath

    Please don't stone me for asking this question but...
    
    Can't a minor female get birth control or an abortion without her parents
    consent/involvement ?  If so it makes a tattoo seem like a minor issue.
    Where does the "my body - my right" argument step in?
    
    
    
    

>	 But, Doctah....we're discussing WANTing a tattoo, not NEEDing
>	 one...I don't think anyone NEEDs anything like that, but if
>	 they WANT it, then it should be their decision....and also a
>	 decision they will have to live with.
    
     I don't think there's any reason to discuss the difference of want vs.
    need here. Point is well taken.
    
>	 Wanting a tattoo, or an earring, or a different haircut is
>	 not a matter of how stable, or unstable a person is....its a
>	 matter of personal preference. 
    
    I guess my point was missed. I'm NOT trying to imply that stability and
    a tattoo are inversely proportional. I was trying to explain why I
    don't feel the need (ie want, have the desire) to do anything in
    particular to my body or appearance to either stand out OR fit in.
    Any clearer?
    
    The Doctah

	 Much clearer, Doctah....it was the following line that threw
	 me for a loop, I suppose...to me it implies that, since
	 people aren't like you about expressionism, that they
	 "obviously" did not grow up in a stable environment....
	 	 
.76>Perhaps that's
.76>   because of the environment I grew up in. It was very stable. As I grew
.76>   up, I thought everybody had such an environment- this is obviously not
.76>   true.


	 My apologies for "misunderstanding" you......

	 kath

RE: ...

IMO, wanting ... yes folks *needing* a tattoo, *is* a sign of '''instability'''.
If having a tattoo is an important part of who you consider yourself to be, you
need to take a *good* look at that.

Jim.

>       <<< Note 853.81 by ANT::ZARLENGA "Fiona, baby, I'm all yours!" >>>

>    	I think most people do those things for acceptance into their
>    circle of friends.

	 I don't do anything for acceptance from my friends...I expect
         my friends to accept me for who and what I am....

	 Are implying that I am not the norm?
	 

	 kath

	 Actually, I want to add something to that last statement I
	 just made....

	 Perhaps in the case of inmature people, yes....acceptance by
	 others is a motivation for expressionism....but not in mature
	 individuals

	 (notice the word "individual")

	 kath

.84>    	I don't know you well enough to tell.


	 well, since you contend that most people do things like that
	 for acceptance....

	 and since I don't.....

	 I must be abonormal....hey...I can deal with that....

	 :-)

	 kath

    	RE: Mike Z.
    
    	>>I think most people do those things for acceptance into their
    	>>circle of friends.
          
    	And you haven't gotten one yet?!  Shame on you!!  And here I
    	am thinking that you like to be with the "in" crowd. (8 X1000
    
    	Tigga~~~
    

    Dont bother geting one Mike.... they aint worth it...
    
    Al, who has a few...

	It every state I know of there is a law you must be 18 to
	get a tattoo... I've seen people carded to get a tattoo in
	N.H.

	What I have also seen teenagers do, is make home made tattoo's,
	yes, with needles/ink/string.  (And the tattoo usually ends
	up very crude looking).  

	If the kid is so bound their going to get a tattoo would 
	you rather they got a home made job, that (usually) they
	will be ashamed of in years to come no matter what , or at 
	least a professionally done one, that they would proably only 
	be ashamed of if they picked the wrong location or design for them?
	
	Or do you want to just be able to say "See I told you so!"?

	To the gentleman's daughter who wishes a tattoo, I also wanted
	one for a long time.  I was fasinated with them.  I asked 
	several people who had them to tell me what it was like,
	I went on several "field trips" before hand to check out
	real tattoo palours.  I read up on tattoos from the library
	(Tattoos have been around for ever).   They only thing I 
	would say is, think long and hard about what you want and
	where you want it.   I've seen woman with flower braclets
	tattoo'd around their wrists which are the most beautiful
	things I have ever seen.  I have also seen woman with love
	crudely scrawed across 4 fingers.  I've seen people with prison
	tattoos and gang tattoos between their thumbs and first fingers
	Some tattoos have meanings to certain groups of people. This
	may or may not be something you wish to be associated with
	for the rest of your life.  Be careful, and find out everything
	possible before you make a final decision.

	I have several tattoos.  I really don;t care what people think
	of them or me.  I have had them for 8 years.  I got both
	on my 18th birthday.  I am a professional at Digital, I 
	am lower upper middle class.  I have a 3 year old son.  I go
	to college nights.  I have had positive dealings with customers.
	I have won several awards through work. I pay my bills on time.
	I have a decent car, a decent house.  So whats the big
	deal??  Does having tattoos make me less of a person?  or
	not as "worthy?" or condemmed to be low class??

	Get a grip, people!!   
	./Robin

    	Again, thanks to everyone for contributing.
    	My daughter has decided NOT to have a tattoo at this time. her
    reasons are:
    	1: Not sure she would like something so permanent.
    	2: After I brought her to see one put on she's sure she doesn't
    	   want to feel the pain.
    	3: She asked my opinion.  I told her I don't like them on women
    	   and that if she has to have one would she at least wait till	
    	   she was 18.
    
    	I hope I haven't offended any women who are wearing them by
    saying that I don't care for them on women.  But it's just the way
    I feel.  And yes I think they're okay on men.  I have one.
    
    P.S.  She also liked the idea of wearing a temporary one that can
    be washed off when desired.  I didn't know thaey existed orthat
    they were of such good quality.
    
    Thanks again,
    Mike

    Well, there hasn't been any ativity in this note for awhile, but I
    want to add my two cents!
    
    As .90 said, in most states you ARE required to be 18 for a tattoo.
    And the decent parlors WILL card you to make sure you're of age.
    I think anyone considering a tattoo must be at a mature enough age
    in their life where they can realize, this IS for life, it IS
    permanent.  The scar to remove a tattoo can be far worse than the
    actual tattoo.
    
    I have two tattoos, and although I won't get any more I will be
    adding to the two I already have.  I have a rose on the back of
    my right shoulder.  My first.  I got it 2 years ago.  A year ago
    I added my husbands name to a ribbon through the rose a year ago.
    Last year I got a butterfly on my ankle.  Then a few months later
    I added a flower to each side of it.  Now I'm going to add more to
    it so it goes all the way around my ankle.   
    Why? Because I LIKE them.  I also plan to add a cat into the rose.
    
    I've only been to two tattoo parlors. We go to Seabrook, NH, because
    tattoos are still outlawed in Mass.  The men working there have been
    there for 17+ years, and draw most of their work free hand.  I don't
    think a 'good' tatooist should need to use a stencil.
    
    The needles used in tattoo guns are more like a sewing needle than
    a doctors needle.  They're solid.  They're dipped into the ink, and
    the ink is held in a little resevoir.  There is extremely slim
    chance of anything being 'caught' from having a tattoo.  Especially
    with the sterilization process they use.  All of the needles are
    sterilized after each use.  I would never go to a shop that did not
    use this process.  We checked out the shop thoroughly before even
    considering having any work done there. 
    
    My husband has 'sleeves' on both arms. For those of you who aren't
    familiar with this term, his entire arms are covered, wrist to 
    shoulder, you see almost no skin.   Why? Because he likes them.
    
    Tatooing is painful. Very. And expensive.  In the three years we've
    been going to this shop I've seen prices increase drastically.
    
    I see people staring at my ankle.  I can tell from their expressions
    what they're thinking. Some people can't imagine why I have a tattoo.
    But you know what, I don't CARE what they think!  I have tattoos
    because I want them !  I think it's gross for women to have them all
    over their bodies. I don't like them on woman's backs or arms. But I
    think a couple of tasteful ones are fine!
    
    Tattooing is an art.  And an individual choice. All types of people
    have them.  And for those who like them, there's nothing wrong with
    them, for those who don't like them or don't understand them, 
    remember, it's our choice! 

    
    
    RE: .92
    
    
    Tell me, does it hurt as much as they say to get a tattoo on your
    ankle????
    
    I want a flower vine around my ankle with torquoise flowers....but I've
    heard the pain getting it on the bone is much more than the pain on a
    fleshy part of your body.
    
    
    kath

Why can't they give you a local anasthetic so the tatooing won't be so
painful ?

    Because giving a local anesthetic is administering drugs -- and
    tattooists can't administer drugs; only medical practioners can
    do that.
    
    					andrew

    
    
    And NEVER NEVER NEVER drink alcohol before getting a tattoo.  It can
    cause BAD infections, and it can also severely effect the brilliancy of
    the colours in the tattoo.  
    
    
    kath

    re .93
    
    I had my ankle tattooed after I had my shoulder done.  The shoulder
    hurt but it was bearable.  When I started my ankle, I got my
    butterfly first.  The butterfly is right above the ankle bone,
    right on that bone you feel on the outside of your leg, just
    above the big ankle bone (you know, that big circle one that
    sticks out!)...well, he started, and i thought i'd go right
    through the roof. I could not wait for him to be done!  Yes,
    it hurt!!  I got the flowers on each side at a later time, and
    they're to the side where there's no bone.  I still think it
    hurt more than the shoulder, but it wasn't nearly as bad as I
    remembered the butterfly being.  Because of this, I'm having it
    done slowly, a couple things at a sitting before I go all the
    way around.  It could easily be finished in one sitting, but I'm
    not planning on it cuz I don't think I can handle it!
    
    I forgot to add in my previous note (.92), that our tattoo parlor
    REFUSES to tattoo anyone they know has been drinking.

    re last two..
    I always thought it was a prereq to be wasted out of your mind to get a 
    tatoo everyone I know that has one tells me they woulden't have gotten
    it had they been sober.
    
    -j

    Naaaaaaaaa, only overseas.  
    
    I got both of mine sober, a friend who went with me got smashed first.
    
    Keep in mind that it hasn't always been this way in the states
    though....
    
    It wasn't all that long ago when they would supply free beer/wine while 
    you were getting a tattoo.
    
    Skip

    well, I got my ankle added on to, as planned.  I now have flowers
    and butterflies all the way around my ankle, an anklet.  They 
    haven't been colored yet because an hour was all I could take,
    but next week it will be finished.
    
    I would NOT want to be tattooed after drinking.  Something so
    permanent I would want to be fully aware of what was going on!
    

    I have one high on my left hip.  It's the male/female sign interlocked.
    
    
    
                                   L.J.