Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    
    
    Sounds like my kinda person, Paula....hard to tell exactly
    what you're asking, but if you want an opinion on why this
    person is the way s/he is, my guess would be:
    
    This person has learned life's lessons the hard way.  Thru
    painful experience.  That when one relies on another person,
    in any way, the final outcome is disappointment and hurt feel-
    ings.  That the only person one can REALLY rely on is yourself.
    All others can/will/might be there some of the time, but there
    will always come that crucial moment when one really really
    needs the people one has come to trust and believe in-and those
    people are just not there.
    
    I am surmising that the person in question knows that it's ok
    to be involved with others, in a variety of relationships and
    to varying degrees of intimacy.  But always, always, keep that
    little part of oneself apart.  Don't ever get to the point of
    relying on another person.  Always be prepared to continue on
    with barely a falter when the relationship ends.
    
    

	>Isn't this fairly rare?  Aren't most people more sociable?
    
    Good gracious, NO!  It's not only not rare, it's extremely common.
    
	>Why would someone seem to yearn for close friendships, yet
	>create their life to avoid them?  And how do they turn that
	>around, if they so desire?
    
    Becuase they don't know any better.  The patterns of relationships
    they saw as children were distorted, skewed, mixed up, unhealthy.
    
	>Is this based in childhood? parent relationships?  Their parents
    	>are fairly unemotional, don't express feelings, and mother is
    	>prone to criticize.  ("You should be more like so-and-so." or
    	>"I don't see how you can stand to live that way." or "You shouldn't
    	>have those dogs." ad nauseum.)
    
    Yup -- what you've described is the result of growing up in a
    dysfunctional family.  (I know -- I recognize the results)
    
    For more insight as to the background, you might want to take
    a look at Bradshaw: On the Family, by John Bradshaw.
    
    For more on the patterns of behavior you described, take a
    look at "Struggle for Intimacy" by Janet Woititz.
     
    Can you fix 'em?  Nope.  Can they help themselves?  Yup.
    
    					good luck,	
    					 andrew

	 Whew........let me catch my breath....nothing like having my
	 guts ripped open and poured all over the table.

	 Ehem.....you've just described me perfectly and it's a rather
	 eerie feeling.

	 I can't really name anyone while I was growing up that was
	 particularly close to me....as in "best friend" and such.
	 I've always been a very internal person.  Lots of
	 acquaintances, but very few close friends.  Friends came and
	 went, I've never really kept in touch with them.  In fact,
	 right now, I just recently got the address of a friend from
	 high school/college and I've been agonizing over writing to
	 her, or not.  I think fondly of her, but I'm not sure if I
	 want to renew old friendships.

	 And another thing, I have never had really close friends
	 (until now) that were of the same sex.  Most of them were all
	 males.  I got along so well with men, and rarely did as well
	 with women.....I'm not sure why.

	 As for relationships, I don't really feel complete without
	 them, but I'm also not anxious to hunt them down.  I don't
	 date much....I suppose if I wanted a date, i wouldn't really
	 have a problem finding one.

	 You'll also find, I think, that people like this crave
	 affection, but when they get it, it is never enough.  NEVER.
	 I think a lot of my past relationships have failed because I
	 can never be content with anything.  I always need more, and
	 that becomes very overwhelming to other people and usually
	 very destructive.

	 I guess you could say I find myself to be a very internal
	 person.  If I am depressed, angry, etc, I internalize a lot
	 of it.  I don't let it out and I become very centered on ME.
	 Also, a lot of it has to do with a very low self-esteem
	 problem.

	 I am trying to understand why I am like this.  Perhaps it
	 goes back to the 4th grade when I moved out into the country
	 where there were no children my age.  And I became very
	 attached to another little girl in my class at school and we
	 became the best of best friends.  Then one day she told me
	 she was moving and I was devastated.  She left and told me
	 she would write, and never did.  I waited for months by the
	 box, and never heard anything.  I never quite formed any sort
	 of close relationship after that.

	 I grew up in an army town, all the children's faces changed
	 every four years, yet I was always there (civil service).
	 And I learned to harden myself to not needing anyone to be
	 there for me.

	 My 'rents weren't particularly bad, nor good.  I was,
	 however, forced to attend church three days a week (and my
	 mother still hassles me about it).  I was very intelligent
	 growing up, yet that intelligence was denied by my parents
	 who did not support it really....and so I tended to just sort
	 of "be there" when it came to anything like excelling.  I did
	 my homework (and my work) and went home...I never was pushed
	 to go above and beyond, in fact, I was discouraged ("we can't
	 go all the way back to town to pick you up after XXX Club.").

	 I've always just sort of "been there."  Never really "into"
	 anything.  Never really putting efforts into friendships,
	 relationships, work, sports, anything.
	 
>	Isn't this fairly rare?  Aren't most people more sociable?

	 But I AM sociable!  Most people in here can attest to that.
	 :-)  Yet, not intimately sociable.  I have friends around me,
	 but very rarely close friends.  Very rarely do I let anyone
	 that close, even in a relationship.
	 
>	Why would someone seem to yearn for close friendships, yet
>	create their life to avoid them?

	 Fear.
	 
>	 And how do they turn that around, if they so desire?

	 Force (perhaps the reason I hate force).  I make myself
	 discuss topics in notes, I make myself read technical
	 journals, I make myself trust people in friendships, I make
	 myself be open to others.  I make myself NOT fall into
	 relationships as easily as I could.
	 
>	Is this based in childhood? parent relationships?  Their parents
>    	are fairly unemotional, don't express feelings, and mother is
>    	prone to criticize.  ("You should be more like so-and-so." or
>    	"I don't see how you can stand to live that way." or "You shouldn't
>    	have those dogs." ad nauseum.)

	 QUIT IT!  Damn, I just felt that one right in my gut and it
	 hurt.  (Like twisting a serrated knife in my gut).  Yes,
	 their parents are very unemotional and "love" is a word that
	 is said without feeling.  Expressing love between their
	 parents is very mechanical and they never really know if
	 their parents love each other or not....but what is love
	 anyway?

	 "You should be going to church."  "You know, even though your
	 sister got Cs in school, she was really brighter than you,
	 she just didn't apply herself like you do."  "We sacrificed
	 everything to put you thru college."  "I've failed as a
	 mother."

	 And fathers were not really there at all.  They work, the
	 come home, read the paper, watch the news.....I was a child,
	 and that's about it.  Never supportive, never condemning,
	 just not really there.  One time, in my whole life has my
	 father done something very supportive of me, and it showed me
	 his love for me (as I feel love should be expressed).  I
	 think my parents were incapable of expressing love, and I
	 fear that I, too, am incapable of it.

	 Okay, I'm crying now, so I'm going to stop.....but thanks for
	 making me face something I've been trying to face and deal
	 with for the last few months.  And hoping that I'm not the
	 only one that feels this way...


	 It would be so much easier to have something to put a finger
	 on ('I was beaten', 'I was hated', etc)...but when life is
	 just "there" I sometimes wonder if it would have been easier
	 for me to just have BEEN beaten or something.

	 I'm taking a big step this weekend with my mother.  She
	 constantly criticizes me for not attending church, and tries
	 to force me to....quite often using guilt tactics.  I finally
	 have the nerve to discuss this with her....a big step for me,
	 and hopefully a big step toward resolving a lot of things.

	 thanks.

	 kath

    Re: .0
    
    >Why would someone seem to yearn for close friendships, yet create
    >their life to avoid them?
    
    Are you sure that they've "created" their life to avoid relationships? 
    It could as easily be explained by a lack of social skills, not knowing
    exactly how to deal with people who are not close but dealing well with
    people they somehow "connect" with.

    Hmm, I was about to enter kath's reply.  Change the sexes and reduce
    the amount of direct parental influence (I detached myself from the
    'rents at age 11 or 12) and we have a surprising amount in common. 
    
    Anyway, I don't think what you're describing is unusual at all. 
    Besides dysfunctional families and people from the sort of background
    that kath and I seem to have (for which "dysfunctional" is too strong a
    word, I think), married folk often slip into a similar pattern, no
    mattter how sociable they may have been before marriage.
    
    As to why - I'd start with low self-image, emotional laziness, and good
    ol' "existential despair" (as my counselor put it).  I'm afraid there's
    also a part of me that, even as it suffers from the results of the
    syndrome you describe, asks "So what's wrong with it?"  The
    inconsistencies may be blatantly clear to you, but they still make more
    sense to me than anything that might replace them.
    
    Ray

 Your note [.0] sent a shock through me, and only got worse as I read
further. It sounded like you were describing me. I had thought that my 
particular situation was unusual, but I guess not. :-(  I was surprised 
to read the last few replies as well.

 I rarely write in these conferences, but this note mandates a reply. I 
will tell you some things about myself, and maybe this will help you to
understand why this person behaves the way he (she?) does.

 I would describe my life right now as general blackness with a few bright,
sparkling points of light. I do not remember much from before about age
10, I think that's around when my parents were divorced (father was
alcoholic). I was very bright and did well in school until around senior
year, when I went through a serious bout of depression which lasted through
my first year of college. All during this time, my mother would tell me 
that I was only feeling sorry for myself, and was very resentful and angry
with me for it. (By now she had remarried, but my stepfather was generally
distant through it all.) I was never a socially outgoing person, probably
because I moved several times during elementary school. So when things 
started to fall apart for me, I started writing a journal. I would open
this notebook and write every thought that crossed my mind, sometimes 
spending hours pouring my feelings into this book. It did not take long 
for me to reach page 300. Didn't I have any friends? Yes, I did, especially
one circle of friends from a disaster services volunteer group I was 
involved in, but no one I could really confide in at the time. What I
desperately needed was a relationship with someone who I could cry with and
just be with, but the one time I tried did not work out well and only
caused me a great deal of pain. Eventually I found the girl I was looking
for, but it was about two years too late. So the result was that the two
most painful years of my life (to date) are chronicled in 500 pages of 
spiral-bound notebook.

 I ended up leaving WPI near the end of freshman year there, and stayed 
out the next year. I gradually came out of my depression and resumed a 
normal life, with my handful of friends. What you said about your friend's
not being really close to anyone, but willing to open up if just given the
chance, describes it exactly. Generally I do not talk much to other people,
because I simply do not have much to say. After spending days at a time by
yourself it is easy not to talk to people.

 I do feel that life is most enjoyable when you can share it with someone. 
I think most people do. Right now that is just what I want to do, but
somehow I can't get to that first step. It is like a wall that keeps me 
from approaching other people. And basically, it just stays there until the
loneliness becomes too much. There is the dilemma -- when one is very lonely,
it is difficult to start a relationship; other times I don't bother. But
this subject has already been discussed...

 I have been trying to change things by going out more and trying to meet
other people, but it has not happened yet. The best way to find new friends
is through your friends... The person with few friends is at a disadvantage.
Last week, I was thinking about writing a letter to one young woman whom I
wanted to get to know, but had gone off to college; I almost started writing
when I thought "What's the point?". I know what the point is, but I never
did write that letter.

 Now, well, I do not know what will happen with my next relationship. The 
one I mentioned earlier lasted for about one year; then we drifted apart
over the next six months. I am still prone to depression, but there is also
a crazy side to me which drives my sense of humor. I wander along through
life by myself, occasionally sharing the ride with another person for a
short while, then moving along on my own again.

 Jim

    re.0 I thought you were writing about me too!
    
    -j
    

    I think my father is a person like that.  He is extremely reserved,
    does not deal well with small talk, does not have any close friends. He
    is English, but moved away when he was about 22 without looking back. 
    He married someone who could express his emotions for him, and resented
    it when she spent time on the weekends doing something that didn't
    include him.
    
    When I was young my Mom was strong, warm, familiar; Dad was distant.
    It was a weird family mix.  We knew Dad loved us because Mom told us he
    did, and because if we needed a THING, he would get it for us.  Words
    were hard for him.  We (there's 5 kids) felt uncomfortable around him
    because he felt uncomfortable around us.
    
    BUT THERE'S HOPE!!  He has gotten a LOT better in the last 10 years --
    he's loosened up.  He is able to express emotion verbally.  He smiles
    at us, hugs us, talks to us on the phone, tells us he misses us.  He
    relates better to my mom.  He finds it easier to talk to new people.  
    I feel sometimes like I have a new dad...
    
    What helped him (and it will not be for everyone) was attending a
    Lifespring seminar in 1980.  Lifespring, if you haven't heard of it, is
    sort of a gentler, kinder EST.  It's a workshop where you learn to
    trust other people and take responsibility for your own happiness and
    your own life.  I didn't go through it but half of my family did (both
    Basic and Advanced), and here are the results:
    
      Dad and my sister:   helped them GREATLY, affects them still
      Sister-in-law:	   helped a lot
      Mom, brother:	   helped some
    
    It costs money ($300 per workshop in 1980, held at night during the
    week and all weekend), and they put a lot of pressure on you to enlist
    other people in it (sort of a pyramid scheme).  For my family, though,
    it broke through a lot of emotional barriers.   I think it works best
    when the person signs up and WANTS to change; it wouldn't be as
    effective if they felt pushed into going...
    
    I don't have any literature on Lifespring but I know it's in most major
    cities at this point.  
    
    Pam

    re: .0
    
         I was also described quite well by your note, but not as well as
    some of the other people who've responded.  (Not seeing myself as good
    as others? low self esteem? No way! ;-) )
    
         I think that low self esteem is a big part of it.  I'm forever
    second guessing people's actions and reading "He/She doesn't really
    like me and usually only puts up with me" into them.
    
         I've read Bradshaw's On The Family at the suggestion of an EAP
    counsellor and I've determined that I'm from a dysfunctional family. 
    Of coures 96% of all families are dysfunctional to some degree
    according to Bradshaw.
    
         What am I doing about it?  I'm going to ACA (Adult Children of
    Alcoholics) meetings and participating in the ACOA Notes conference
    (Contact TPWEST::JOVAN for membership).  I'm learning a lot and have
    done a little towards my "recovery".  As Andrew said, I can change
    myself, and thats what I'm doing.
    
    Tony

    	Sounds to me like fear:  fear of being hurt, fear of rejection,
    fear of looking foolish, fear of...basically, being *you*.  Unsure that
    folks will like you as that person, and accept you as such.  Of course,
    I am unfamiliar with this for the most part so this is all guesswork on
    my part.


    	In my mind though, we *all* get hurt, rejected, look foolish, etc.
    Eventually you learn that fact, and it doesn't bother you as much when
    you do it.  It's just a part of life, and being human and imperfect.


    	My thoughts, FWTW.


    Brian

Sounds like what the base noter is describing is not at all rare.  Add my
response to the "me too" list.

Hmm, reasons, contributing factors?  I was on the other side of Kath's (.3)
response -- I was the Army brat who never lived in any one place for more
than two or three years, until I was about ten years old.  Then we settled
down (Dad retired from the service) to a more "normal" life, whatever that
is, but it was a life that wasn't very, hmm, expressive of emotion.

The folks didn't set much of an example as far as leading a social life, so
I never learned any kind of interpersonal skills from them.  Learning
social skills in school didn't really work out either.  I didn't even have
the foundation, had never learned to talk to anyone.  Went through twelve
years of education with my nose buried in books during my free time.  Was
once accused by a high school teacher (who fancied himself an amateur
psychologist and tried to draw me out) of having "all the social grace of a
wasp."  He and I didn't get along :-}, though I'd like to think those words
of his no longer apply (not quite as much, anyway).

Grades were always very important.  Memory is probably exaggerating this,
but I would swear not a night went by while school was in session that I
didn't hear the words "Did you excel today?" at the dinner table.  (God
help the person who ever speaks those words to me again.)

How to turn things around, and start changing?  Good question.  I finally
started changing halfway through college, when I worked up the nerve to
join the school film club.  It gave me something in common with other
people, something to talk about.  I made a few friends, and got to know a
lot more people, even if only as acquaintances.

Being out in the working world for over two years has made a difference
too.  I'm fortunate in working for a group that hires (well, hired,
pre-freeze :-) ) out of college, so there are people here my own age, with
similar backgrounds and interests.  For those reasons, some of these people
are not just co-workers, they're also very good friends.  It's helped. 
I've also gotten to know a few people through notes as well, and much to my
astonishment, that's been kind of fun.

'Nuff said, already.  I can feel the nerves starting to get really raw,
having been exposed to the open air like this.

-- Cathy

	Paula as I was reading your base_note I was that person pretty much.
This should be interesting.  I stay to myself most of the time and need space.
Why?  Because that is the way I feel most comfortable living.  I am single, 
enjoy living alone and have a pretty busy schedule.  I don't like small talk.
Have a few 'real' close friends that I enjoy being with when I want to. 

        Don't think I could handle a commitment at this time in my life and
until I can, I don't get too serious.  This doesn't make me a 'bad' person.

        I am anxious to read the other responses.

        Hope you find what you are looking for.

        Meredith

    
	Thank you to all who replied, both in this note and by mail.  
        I appreciate your opening up and offering some insight.  
        Deb, Andrew, Kath, and Jim particularly showed me some things I 
     	hadn't really noticed before.  Thank you!

	Re: .4, yes, I'd say created.  The social skills are not as developed 
    	as might be, but I don't think that's the root of the problem, I think
    	it's another symptom.

	Re: .8, it's good to know that people can "get better" 

	Re: .10, Brian, I think you're right that a big part of it is the fear
	within  - Fear of being oneself, for fear others won't accept it.

	Re: .9, Thank you, Tony, for reinforcing the idea of getting help, and
	where to go to get it.

	Re: .5, I don't think there's anything wrong with it.  But sometimes a
	person can get tired of being a recluse.  And wonder why they don't
	change it.

	I've been thinking about all this a lot over the past week, and reading
	your responses several times.  Sometimes those we know the best are 
	those we understand the least - ourselves.  It's me I'm trying to 
	understand.

	As a result of your responses and suggestions, I'm on the waiting list
	at the library for all the books you've recommended (except the one
	they had), and I'll be starting co-dependency meetings this week.

	The Thanksgiving holiday at my mother's after reading the first few 
    	responses showed me some things I hadn't noticed before, too.  I 
    	still don't know whether part of the reason is that I'm afraid of the 
    	responsibility of giving to friendships.  But I become totally 
    	different around my mother.
	I withdraw completely within myself, feel inadequate, and question all
	my thoughts.  And it hangs on awile after she's gone, and keeps me 
    	feeling that other people must be the same way.  Totally critical, 
    	totally unsupportive of ME, wanting me to be something other than 
    	what I am.

	For the first time I realized that it's not the rest of the world 
    	that's unfriendly - it's the world's reaction to me standing alone 
    	shouting out that I'm not worthy of it because my mother doesn't 
    	approve of Me!
	I've spent 36 years waiting for people to come up to me and ask me to
	be their friend (with a few exceptions), and with that sort of an 
    	attitude, it just doesn't happen!

	At least now I know that for my own growth I have to resolve
 	my relationship with my mother, and I know where to go for help.
	I feel like I'm a toddler just learning how to walk upright, 
    	instead of crawl.  Those first few steps feel pretty darn good!

	Thank you all again,
	Paula

    
    
    Paula, send me some mail listing the books you are lookng
    for.  I may have some to lend you.
    
    Deb
    

    Good for you, Paula!
    
    *hugs*
    
    Carol
    

    
    This note really hit home and I can understand much about what many of
    you have said.  I guess I am another who could be described by what
    many of you have said.  I guess its comforting to know that I'm not
    alone in the world.
    
    All I'm looking for is friendships, but I guess when you have difficulty
    trusting that becomes very difficult.  Real honest openness into how
    one thinks is not what comes naturally.  I guess there is always that
    concern of what others will think and say that comes as a road block
    into making my life more fulfilling.
    
    I must applaud all you people who can come out an expose your faults
    and/or weaknesses to others.  It's difficult for me, but I know I must
    try to start somewhere.  I'm trying to learn more about myself and
    others, maybe it will help me in my quest for that real happiness that
    I know I can achieve.
    
    Talk to you all later :-)
    
    Bob