Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    No, this is not an easy situation, and as with any advice, it is
    yours to take or toss out the window.
    
    What is it that *you* want in a relationship?  Until you define
    that, you won't find it.  What are your interests and aspirations?
    How compatible are these to the two men?  (A 100% match is rare,
    but there has to be *some* degree of compatibility.)
    
    Do you want to develop a relationship with the person who works
    in your building, because you have similar interests and values,
    or because he came along after all those other "dates from hell"?
    (Not an easy question, but one well worth examining.)  
    
    Why is the family friend taking such an interest in your activities?
    Is this one of the qualities you're looking for in a man?
    
    There are many issues that you've touched upon that only you can
    examine.  First look at what it is that you need, then determine
    whether you want to develop a relationship with *either* of these
    men.
    
    Good luck,
    Judi
    

    It doesn't sound like you will ever be fulfilled with your boyfriend.
    It sounds like you will always wonder what might have been if you dump
    your boyfriend and take up with the family friend. You are in a tough
    situation, and you need to take the time to examine your feelings
    closely.
    
    You have to decide what type of relationship you expect from your SO.
    That will go a long way towards telling you what course to take. There
    will be certain aspects which either of your current suitors will be
    unable or unwilling to provide; you must decide how much you value
    these aspects.
    
    Short term advice: tell your friend that you need some space to sort
    out your life. Explain to him that pressure from him is the last thing
    you need right now, and will most likely push you away from him.
    
    Oh yeah, don't expect to be able to fundamentally change your man
    (whomever you pick). If your boyfriend's unwillingness to be openly
    affectionate bother's you, don't expect that it will be allright
    eventually. It may never change.
    
    Good luck, take your time, and let us know how you make out.
    
     The Doctah

It sounds to me, like you're not all that bad off with your boyfriend.  Neither
of you are ready for committment, but do you really need it right now?  Tell
your family friend to start acting like a "friend" and respect your wishes or
shove off.

Jim.

    Re:  the family friend
    
    Granted, he's in love, but he seems to be the possessive and jealous
    type of lover.  That would drive me nuts, though some people are able
    to deal with it.  You're under no obligation to love him just because
    he loves you.
    
    Re: the boyfriend
    
    Perhaps his reluctance to express affection is related to his
    reluctance to make a commitment.
    
    I know it doesn't help to say this, but don't worry about losing him. 
    You don't need the stress.  Try to make the relationship as enjoyable
    as possible.  If, gawd forbid, you ever break up, at least you'll have
    lots of good memories.
    
    Re:  choosing
    
    It's a matter of priorities, really.  You've identified what each man
    gives you.  What's most important to you and what are your chances of
    achieving it in either case?

    I feel like a mirror.  If I didn't know better, I'd say that I'd
    written that letter.
    
    I say "86" the both of them and get yourself into counselling.
    
    JMHO.
    
    Carol
    

    It seems you felt in control of yourself when you gave your boyfriend
    the ultimatum to stop seeing his other girlfriend if he wanted to keep
    dating you.
    
    But now when your friend says the same thing to you, you don't like it.
    Is it perhaps because your friend wants to be in control of the
    relationship and you're not ready to surrender that control?
    
    As another reply noter said, there are many issues you brought out
    which could present rather lengthy discussions. My suggestion is to
    draw back from both friend and boyfriend until you decide what you
    need for yourself. Please seek counseling.
    
    					Susan

    You seem to want it all, and the truth is you can't have it.  Everyone,
    even men, come with plusses and minusses.  You will never find exactly
    everything you want and neither of these men are to "blame" for
    that.  You should get down on your knees and thank the heavens that
    you are both lovable and loved rather than trying to find fault
    with both of these men.
    
    And when you are done with that you should decide what qualities
    you must have in the man in your life and what qualities you cannot
    accept.  Then you need to have the strength of your convictions
    to choose the best man for you and love him completely, *despite
    his shortcomings*, which is how I am sure you would like to be loved
    as well.
    
    Look inside yourself for the answers and do it soon.  Because although
    you say you don't want to "string anyone along", that's exactly
    what you are doing while waiting for one of them to change into
    your total prince and lay his very life at your feet.  It just won't
    happen.  What you give is what you get.  Take control of this situation
    and don't wait for these guys to choose for you.
    
    And no, you will never know if you will loose your chosen to someone
    else.  Not even a marriage vow will guarantee that.  If you are
    not strong enough to *love*, you cannot expect to ever be loved,
    only used.  Your question should be, "Which one do I love more?"
    and not, "Which one loves ME more?"

    Re .8, your advice is very idealistic but not necessarily practical.
     If the person she loves most is likely to dump her and break her
    heart, but the person who loves her most will treat her wonderfully
    for years, she might do better with the one who loves her most!
    
    I sympathize with .0.  I've been in similar situations, also.
    
    As far as the friend goes, isn't it frustrating when you meet a
    man who *seems* perfect in so many ways, only there's just one problem
    - he just doesn't turn you on?  I would agree with the advice that
    you just tell him, nicely, that you need some time to think out
    things and decide what you want to do with your life, and that pressure
    is very upsetting to you now.  But, tell him that you value his
    friendship, and do want to stay just close friends for the time
    being.  (You never know when he might come in handy as an escourt
    or a shoulder to cry on - the other guy being as non-commital as
    he is.)
    
    I don't trust the actions of your boyfriend, the one you love. 
    It sounds to me like he's going to eventually end it.  If he's not
   completely devoted to you in the beginning of a relationship, he
    never will be.   It sounds to me as though he's just not interested
    in a commitment at this time in his life, or that you're just not
    the one to inspire those feelings in him.  I'd try to start getting
    over being in love with him now, if I were you.
    
    I think time will tell that neither of these men will turn out to
    be "the one" for you.  Isn't it frustrating?
    
    Lorna
    

    Dump the "friend".  
    
    Anyone who would attempt to coerce someone else by holding their
    "friendship" "hostage" is a lousy romance prospect and a worse prospect
    for a friend.
    
    If you're not fulfilled by your boyfriend's action just remember
    that you love someone for what and who they are, not for what and
    who they might be.  
    
    Also, he might not be telling you he loves you because he really
    doesn't love you.  Most paople, almost as a knee-jerk reaction, say "I
    love you, too" whenever someone says "I love you."  Your boyfriend
    may have better sense than to fall into that trap.
    
    Kris
    
    
    

    One point everyone seems to have overlooked. Your boyfriend started
    dating you when he already had another woman whom he loved. When you
    found out about her, you broke up with him and said you'd take him back
    if he left her. So a couple days later, he dumped this woman he claims
    to have loved to be with you. Maybe you should be glad he hasn't told
    you he loves you yet, that doesn't seem to mean very much to him.
    
    Just my .02 worth
    Debbie
    

>   If he's not
>   completely devoted to you in the beginning of a relationship, he
>    never will be.   It sounds to me as though he's just not interested
    in a commitment at this time in his life . . .
    
    Sorry, I don't think this is even true. 
    
    Some relationships are intimate and committed from the first. 
    Others take time to develop, grow, and deepen to the point where
    both partners can honestly say "I love you and want to spend my
    life with you."  And unfortunately when the love is just a
    seedling, you can't predict whether it's going to wither in a
    summer drought, freeze from early frost, or thrive and bloom.
    
    I've seen too many relationships fail because one or both partners
    tried to push more intimacy on the relationship than it was ready
    to bear.  You have to give the other person time -- time to get to
    know you, time to learn to trust you as well as himself, time to
    learn to share.  And you have to give yourself time as well --
    time to know him, time to learn to trust him as well as yourself,
    time to learn to share.  
    
    None of this comes instantly, or automatically.
    
    Maybe it won't come at all.
    
    Maybe neither of these men is right for you.  There's no law that
    says you have to choose one or the other just because they love
    you.  It's very admirable not to want to hurt someone else, but
    it's not enough grounds for a marriage.
    
    --bonnie

    re .0,
    
    It is interesting to observe that you are probably at the exact point 
    where your boyfriend used to be before he dumped his former girlfriend....  
    
    Eugene

"Maybe you should be glad he hasn't told you he loves you yet, that doesn't seem
to mean very much to him."

Let me get this straight...  The woman makes the man choose between the two
women, and you say that love doesn't seem to mean very much to him???

Sounds like you've painted him into a no win situation to me.  *Come On*, what
is he supposed to do?  You haven't left him with any choices that don't make him
look like a sucker.  Another example of the stupidity of forcing another person
into choosing between two people.

Jim.

    re. .-1
    
     He painted himself into a no win situation. If he was "in love" with
    one woman, what was he doing seeing someone else in the first place?
    The woman went into the relationship thinking he was available, when
    she found out he wasn't, she chose to end the relationship. I don't see
    where she pushed him into making any choices.
    
    Just my female point of view.
    
    Debbie
    

    I believe that if a man has lied to me about something as important as
    seeing somone instead of saying yes I am and what about it.Then He is
    not worth the trouble to establish a lasting relationship with.
    
    If he chose to say that He is/was seeing someone and was having
    difficiulties than I could see that he was human and could talk to 
    me about things that bother him and would hope that I would be the
    one he tells about his desition.
    
    I would not date a possesive man either. I dont like jealosy and I 
    believe that men who insitist on monitoring my behavior will find it
    becomming more and more to thier disliking. I am becoming more and more
    skilled at explaining where I think my head is at. I am open to
    constructive critisim but will not give into someone dominating
    my lifestyle(unless we have consented to playing games)
    
    My rule of thumb:  If you dont like the game(i.e. dishonesty or
    domination)then drop them. I have found that If I find something I 
    can't stand and ask them to stop and create a relationship anyway it 
    does not last. Head games are not my specialty so I found some one
    who doen't play them. He sees them a lot and I have learned from his
    experiances.
    Getting back to the Annon noter If he lyed once then he will lie again.
    Avoiding the answer is lieing. or can be called avoiding the truth.
    Having his way with me under false pretenses is lieing. I would never
    trust him again. I would eliminate him from my socail callender til
    I had recovered or found somone even more special. 
    I would not drop him because another man I was dating wanted me to. I
    would tell the other friend that I understood that he cared for me and 
    wanted the best for me but I can manage my own life. I would watch him
    carefully because when they think they can tell you what to do they 
    tend to think they own you.  
    
    I would never have agreed to seeing the first man after he broke up
    with someone else because I tend to feel If he did that for me what
    happens when he finds somone he thinks is better(someone he THINKS 
    is better is not nessesarily better).
    
    I think I may be repeating myself so I'll quite for now.
    
    
    

Typical...

"If he was "in love" with one woman, what was he doing seeing someone else in
the first place?"

Is it impossible for you to believe that a person could enjoy being with more
then one other person?  There are *many* reasons for seeing more then one
person; it depends on the relationship and the people in it.  I don't think it's
all that strange in a *month* old relationship.

"The woman went into the relationship thinking he was available, when she found
out he wasn't, she chose to end the relationship."

To be precise:

"The stipulation was that if he ended the relationship with his SO, I would
begin to date him again."

What does "available" mean?  Does it mean that no other woman has her license
plate on him or what?  Don't you think that the man should have a choice in who
he wants to be with, or if he would like to continue dating both?
    
I'm not condoning dishonesty, but this kind of attitude disgusts me.

Jim.

    
    
    Available to many people, Jim, means free to make a commitment to
    a monogamous relationship, with the hope that the relationship will
    be longterm.
    
    Deb
    

RE: Free to make a commitment

Hmm...  Somehow, I thought that was something anyone could do any time.  Now my
question is, if someone doesn't want to make a commitment, does that mean that
you tell them to get lost?

Jim.

    I think that depends on each individual.  Some do want all or nothing,
    some don't.  I, for instance, would be very uncomfortable seeing
    someone on a continuing basis, but knowing they are seeing other
    women, too.  It's a matter of semantics--all or nothing, monogamous,
    committment-seeking, loyal, all the same.  
    
    In response to the "do you tell them to get lost?" statement, no,
    I wouldn't be so harsh, but I would cease dating that person, probably
    citing incompatibility as the reason.  Each to their own, granted,
    but some comfortable middle ground has to be there.
    
    kim

    I have some questions regarding the boyfriend:
    
    1)  If he was already seeing someone he loved, why did he start seeing
        you, while avoiding the issue of the other woman?
    
    2)  When you broke up with him, basically issuing the ultimatum
        "choose her or me" why did he break up with her if he loved her?
    
    There are a couple things you have mentioned about each of these men
    that would cause me to steer clear of both of them.
    
    First of all, I haven't seen a satisfactory answer to the relationship 
    between the boyfriend and the first woman.  Secondly, his reluctance
    to make a commitment or express affection would bother me.  How
    affectionate is he in private?  Does he keep important things to
    himself?
    
    Regarding the family friend, I personally could not tolerate his
    attitude regarding your boyfriend.  If he's as possessive as he
    sounds, that would drive me away from him.
    
    If it were me (which it isn't) I'd probably tell both of them that I
    liked them and cared for them very much (and loved them, if
    appropriate), but that I could not make a commitment at this time
    to either one.  And then I'd split my time between the two of them,
    maybe continue the physical relationship with the boyfriend,
    and continue to date other men. 
    
    Like others have said previously - you need to know what you *really*
    want, believe you'll get it, and go for it!
    
    Good luck,
    Paula