Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Question - Does she know about his request?  How does SHE feel about
    it?
    
    For what it's worth, remember that this is still your daughter's
    father you're talking about, good or bad, fair or not.  And she's
    old enough to make her own decisions and suffer her own consequences.
    
    And the last thing she needs, IMHO, is to have to choose between
    her mother and father.  Support her decision, whatever it may be
    and chill out.  She KNOWS you love her, and that won't change!
    
    Sounds to me like you've been bitter long enough.  Time to live
    life happy.
    
    Carol
    

    
    	There's one thing that might be helpful for your daughter if she 
    were to see her father. It would give her the chance to express to him
    what *she* thinks and feels about those many years when he was absent.
    
    	I suspect that you know the difference between getting to express
    what you feel vs "stuffing" the feeling, in terms of what the emotion,
    if left unresolved, can eventually do to a person.
    
    	Try to allow her the opportunity to do this, if you can. Seperate
    your issues with this man from your daughter's, because even though
    they may seem to be the same, they're really different - two different
    people, two different issues.
    
    	"Let go and Let grow" - For her sake if not for your own. Good
    Luck Maria!
    
    	Joe Jas

    Maria,
    
    I was lucky enough to have my dad around even after he divorced my
    mom, as he visited each and every weekend....your daughter has not
    been one of the lucky ones in that aspect, but lucky in that she
    has a mom that loves her very much!  Don't blow it by not letting
    her do what she feels she must do...you didn't state how she
    felt about "her dad" writing after all these years, but the worst
    thing you can do is make her choose!  Let her make her own decision
    on what she wants to do, and you will find that she will always
    know that her mom is the best because you are giving her the one
    thing that she needs most....her freedom of choice!
    
    Good luck, and don't worry....all will work out in the end.  Your
    daughter will always be yours...and remember....a son is a son till
    he takes a wife, a daughter is a daughter for the rest of your life!
    
    Jill 

    
    My daughter didn't see her father for 10 years (his choice). At 17
    she decided to find him and get to know him. He had never paid a
    dime in child support or made any attempt to see my son and daughter.
    Well she located him in Florida, we were living in New Hampshire,
    and took the train  down to see him. She stayed in Florida for 3
    months getting to Know her father. At the end of the 3 monthe she
    came home all upset and wondered why I had married such a jerk.
    Up until this time I had never said anything negative about her
    father, I just made excuses as to why he never came to see her or
    why he never sent birthday cards or Christmas presents.  
    I had no problem letting my daughter see her father because I knew
    that I had done the very best that I could in raising her and that
    she had the intelligence to evaluate him all on her own. 

    
    
    Maria,
    
    I agree with the others.  Please let your daughter make the decision
    herself.  She is old enough and I'm sure mature enough to draw her
    own conclusions of her father.  You see her father as an ex-husband
    but she still sees him as her father.  You look to him in a very
    different light than your daughter does.
    
    My dad died when I was young.  But he was an alcoholic and was not
    living with us at the time.  We (and I stress we because we were
    a family unit) were separated when I was 2, but we were still allowed
    to see him when he wasn't drunk.  Then all of a sudden he died.
    I say all of a sudden because I didn't even know he was sick.  My
    mom neglected to tell me this.  She did it I suppose to protect
    us, but I still have a hard time accepting that.  Regardless, he
    is no longer in my life, much like your daughter's situation.
    
    However, there are many times in my life when I often think of my
    dad.  What he would have thought about me and my life.  Last June
    I graduated from college and started a great new job.  I am finally
    an adult and my dad never got to see me as an adult.  It really
    bothers me sometimes that he isn't with me, but I know he is never
    going to come back.  I realize he wasn't the best of fathers.  He
    had alot of problems, but that does not negate the fact that he
    is still my dad.
    
    I was raised primarily by my mom and she like you had many negative
    feelings toward her husband, but she learned to let go of those
    feelings if not for herself then for her children.  She has done
    a hell of a job raising us by herself.  She is always telling me
    that I don't need a man to live my life.  And I know she is telling
    the truth.  Yes I don't need a man, but I choose to have a boyfriend.
    I may not need a man in my life as an adult, but the lack of a male
    role model has left its mark on me.  I'm sure your daughter will
    soon realize the same is true with herself.  
    
    Give her the chance to make her own decisions.  Let her do this
    on her own.  Let the new adult emerge from your protection and
    live her life as her own.  She does love you and you will not loose
    that love by letting her choose.  If anything she will love you
    more for letting her have her independance.  Don't let her be
    forced to deal with the "what ifs".  
    
    Michele

    Maria--
    
    First of all, I can appreciate how you must feel--!  I hope and
    pray that you can get through this, and your feelings, too.
    
    Here's my 2 cents:
    
    My parents were divorced when I was 3.  My mother *never* would
    talk to me about it;  all of a sudden, my father was GONE.  No goodbye,
    no explanation;  nothing.  Being self-centered, as kids usually
    are, I thought he left because *I* did something wrong, or was a
    bad girl.  
    
    As I grew up, I would ask questions about him from time to time--things
    I had a RIGHT to know;  like how much did I look like him, were
    his parents still alive,  did he have brown hair and brown eyes,
    too--nothing big.  But my mom had remarried by the time I was 4.5,
    and my new dad and my mom kept everything about my father from me.
    I now understand that the situation they divorced about was very
    painful to her, and hence to my stepfather--but as a child growing
    up, I had no idea.  I just knew that my first father was a taboo
    subject, and imagined all kinds of things about him--was he in jail,
    or did  he die, or what was so horrible about him??  
    
    The point is, I really needed and wanted to know about him--not
    necessarily to get close to him, but I needed to know OF him, and
    was denied it, and it hurt me.
    
    Do what you like--it's your life and your daughter, but I wanted
    you to know what it felt like for me.
    
    Best of luck with everything,
    
    Jane

       Surprizing how many of us out here have absentee fathers. Mine
       left officially when I was 18 but he had checked out emotionally
       long before that. My sister was 15 and my brother 13. My mom
       never got any child support to speak of though dad did sometimes
       send momey for school costs.

       I made several attempts to stay in touch with my father but he
       never made me feel like he particularly cared. I then went for 10
       years without any contact but a yearly christmas card, then
       suddenly last year he wanted to see me. Well I went to Florida
       and stayed with him and his wife. I suspect he's trying to make
       up now that he feels old.

       How do I feel abut it? He's my dad and and he's an old man. He'll
       never have the place in my heart that my mom does cause she was
       there through thick and thin, but it's no use hating someone for
       times past. I forgive my father and accept that he deserves some
       place in my life and I make that place for him willingly. Let
       your daugther have her father, she knows the difference between
       the love both of you have given. liesl

    Thanks everyone for your thoughts and advice.  I'm especially
    interested in hearing from the abandoned children, since it's
    hard for me to know how my daughter feels and maybe I could get
    some insight from you.
    
    I have never down talked her father to her, and always gave her
    little pieces of information. He was a career officer in the Army,
    and I would take her to Ft. Devens on Armed Forces Day just so she'd
    get an idea of Army life and all.  However, I also did not give
    her much outlet after he left.  She was only 3 so I bought her
    off with Fisher Price toys, or when at 5:00 she would start to look
    sad and anxious because Dad wasn't home, I would quickly take her
    to McDonalds--anything to keep her from feeling the sorrow and 
    acknowledge the loss.  I know now that this was not the right thing
    to do but I was such a mess myself, I couldn't handle it.
    
    It's funny (!?) but I waited 15 years for him to finally write to
    her--each Christmas when she was small , I would send her presents
    from "Dad".  I know now this wasn't right either.  But anyway,
    now when the letter finally came, Bang!  I became pretty crazy and
    upset.  I tried not to show it though (probably not the right thing
    to do either! sigh.);  anyway, I told her to use her own judgment--
    to call or write him when *she* felt ready.  So far, she hasn't
    done anything.  She seemed pleased to hear from him (at last he's
    not rejecting her); and showed the letter to her friends.  BUt
    I sense that she is worried about abandoning me.  I guess I have
    to do some more talking to her.
    
    I think what makes me so angry is that it seems so unfair, and that
    he's still calling the shots.  When he wanted out, he left; he wants
    back in; well,here he is.  Don't we (I) have a say in this?
    
    Once again, thanks, and 
    thanks for listening,
    Maria
    

    
    I wonder if we could get some responses from absent fathers.
    Why they made the choices they did?  What did they do with
    the absent time?  Do they think/wonder about their absent kids?
    
    michele

    
    Maria    re.8
    
    He isn't still calling the shots!  Now it is your daughter's turn
    to call the shots.  The ball is in her court and she can play it
    however she wants.  Maybe you could give her a printout of all of
    these replys to let her know that she is not alone.  I know growing
    up without a father is hard.  But what made it even harder was the
    fact that all of my friends had fathers that lived with them and
    loved them.  When I found a friend whose father was no longer a
    part of her life I felt alot better knowing it didn't happen just
    to me.  If she wants to talk to someone who has grown up without
    a father contact me off-line.  
    
    God Bless,
       Michele

Hi! Maria 
	I have read your notes and the replies and would like to give you some 
of my feelings. Most of us have a story to tell so I`ll start with mine (the 
short version)and then give you some feedback on what I sense from your notes.
	My father left before I was old enough to remember him. All I have is 
a picture of me standing beside him. My mother was unable to take care of my 
brother and I so we were put in an orphanage. I was 4 1/2 at the time. My 
mother remarried,I was taken out of the orphanage when I was 7. My stepfather 
was mentally and physically abusive. He died of a heart attack when I was 16. 
I was glad he died but at the same time felt guilty because of how I felt. 
	My mother never talked about my father. It was like he just vanished 
from the earth. When I was about 25 I became very curious about my father and 
had a desire to locate him. Thru genealogy work I was able to find out that he 
had died alone in a motel room in wood river, Nebraska about two years 
earlier. I was also able to locate two of his sisters. From talking to his 
sisters and my mother, I was able to find out a little bit about him. No one 
had anything good to say about him and my mother told me that their married 
life began as a result of my father raping her. She was only 16 at the time and
married my father rather than receive a perceived beating from her step-mother.
Other things I found out about my father indicated that he was really screwed 
up. His mother died when he was a young boy and the burden was placed on his 
father to raise him. I have been told that probably had something to do with 
how he turned out.
	So all in all I really didn`t miss much by not having him as a father. 
I still would have liked to have the opportunity to talk to him though just to 
get some feeling of what he was really like because all I know is what I was 
told. I would not have expected him to tell me that he missed me or that he 
loved me because I don`t think he was capable of that. In the last few years I 
have come to realize that we as human beings do some of the most painful 
things to each other. Sometimes in the name of love, sometimes not. In the end 
we somehow seem to be victims of victims. My mother was a victim all her life 
and she never failed to let people know about it.

Some of my feelings about your notes. I hope you don`t perceive my comments as 
being mean. I am going to be fairly blunt though.
	You seem to be very angry and a victim as a result of your 
daughter`s father leaving. Who ever told you life is fair? Life has never been 
fair and I doubt if it was ever intended to be. Life is the greatest thing we 
have though and how it all turns out is really up to us. I was a very bitter 
person toward my mother for many years but I was only hurting myself. Life has 
become a much safer and enjoyable place to be once I started realizing that 
she did the best she could and I know my father did too. Forgivness seems to 
do wonders in changing the world to be a better place to live in. I think of 
my father now as such an unfortunate individual and only have compassion for 
him. He will never know the joy of seeing his son or how my life turned out. 
I also believe that he will never know what it is like to have the pleasurable 
feelings of love, tenderness, warmth, compassion,caring and all the other 
wonderful feelings that we as human beings can enjoy. He probably knew of the 
feelings of pain and sorrow in his life because I suspect those are the 
feelings that caused his life to be what it was. I know my mother had plenty of
those feelings in her life. She never talked about my father and how she felt. 
The bittnerness and hatred filled most of her life. She never found much joy 
in anything. 
	I have learned that I can`t do one single thing about how the life of 
another person turns out. They and you and I are totally responsible for our 
own life. Yes, others do have an effect, but the choices are made individually.
I sense in your notes that the real issue that you are dealing with is the
hatred and anger (what you have been through has been painful and it hurts) 
that you still have for your daughters father. The only way you can change the 
unfairness of this life is to change your own outlook. 
	And what if your daughter found out that her father is not a
selfish/dysfunctional person. Maybe after all these years he has learned a few 
things about life and what is really valuable. No one can ever make up for 
time that is lost. But would it be so terrible if your daughter`s father 
finally found out how to be warm, tender, loving,etc. I would hope that you 
would want your daughter to find that in her father. Otherwise what good would 
it do for her to see him? So that she can be angry and resentful toward him?
And you would finally have proof that you have been right about him all the 
time. So, what good would it do ?
	No, I don`t agree with what he has done and I don`t think it was fair 
or right, or that any human being has the right to act in unloving ways toward 
those they love. But he did and life isn`t fair and what has been done has 
been done.
	Maria, I hope I haven`t been too harsh. I sense in the word`s of your 
notes that you are a very loving and sensitive person. You care a great deal 
about your daughter and have gone to great lengths to spare her the pain you 
have felt over these years. But you know, he is the one who has lost out.
	Hello, this is your father has missed out on the best years of his 
life, that of seeing his daughter grow up and I would also guess that of being 
with you. The man had poor judgement as we all sometimes do. You and your 
daughter have a lot to say in this matter but yet after not hearing from him 
for 15 years you say "he is calling the shots" Is he really ? I think he has 
finally realized his error in judgement. And I also think he has suffered 
because of it. Several options are available to you in the way this is handled 
and it really is up to you. Make him suffer, bury the hatchet, turn your 
daughter against him, forgive him, etc. I`m sure there are more, these are just
a few I can think of.
	Well, I have gone on long enough. I`m sure you can tell, this is a 
very sensitive area for me. In closing this note I would just like to 
encourage you to use loving behavior in what you do. My definition of loving 
behavior is that which fosters the spiritual and temporal growth of another 
person. And that includes yourself, Maria.
	If you have any questions on what I have written, don`t hesitate to 
contact me.

	--Ken--
	 

    re .10, .11
    
    Hi, my eyes are opening (slowly); so true, who is calling the
    shots?  No , it isn't Dad afterall.  Your replies are giving
    me much to think about and rework.  I'm surprised at all the
    hidden feelings that are coming up around this--I see now I have
    felt victimized by the fact that it took 15 years for him to
    connect with her again. I waited silently, and frankly, I think
    I'm waiting to pounce on him once he reappears again.  Ambush?
    
    I think I'm dealing with this on many different levels.  The 
    "good mother" is oh so understanding and supportive; the abandoned
    wife could kill him tomorrow...this is complex and personal as well
    --it's humiliating to be abandoned afterall.
    
    At any rate, I think some of the anger and bitterness stems from
    wanting the good ole Leave it to Beaver family, and having it 
    denied to both myself (as a child and adult) and now to my kid.
    
    Another point I'd like to make (in my defense?) is that raising
    a kid alone is *hard*.  There was/is never enough money to get 
    through each week, never enough for a luxury vacation.  I've
    worked two jobs; I've gone back to school so that I could earn
    more.  I have been "on call" for 18 years without a break, and
    I'm tired.  I'm the one who paced the hospital corridors when
    she was sick.  Of course I resent him trying to get back into her
    life now that she almost independent.  I needed help and I didn't
    get any from him, period.
    
    I will keep your thoughts in mind.  No, I don't want my daughter
    to be bitter and angry.  Perhaps he's not dysfunctional anymore.
    That would be good for him and for her, but please, don't ask
    me to forgive him, not yet.
    
    Again, thanks for listening, thanks for the thoughts.
    Maria
    
    

    
   I am new at this "reply" bit, and a bit nervous to boot.  But I
    would like to tell you something I thought of while reading this
    note.  
    
    You have apparently done a very good parenting job for all these
    years.  Trust in your good parenting, and give your child the 
    opportunity to make her own judgement about which parent has been
    the supportive and caring one.  It is natural that a child with
    a missing parent wants that parent in their life.  (I have a grandson
    who has an "on again-off again" father.)
    
    But most children--young or grown--generally come to the realization
    that the parent who stayed and did the caring and nurturing is the
    one that matters the most.  I am not saying this exactly as I want
    to--but I don't think you need to feel threatened in any way by
    his showing up at this point in her life.  Trust yourself and trust
    her.  
    
  
    

    On a practical note - he's sent her a plane ticket to a city
    a long way from her home.  Maybe I'm paranoid, but I would
    be nervous about this.  What if he's still a creep and your
    daughter finds herself alone in a strange city with a creep?
    I'd feel a lot easier about it if her father had offered to
    see his daughter on HER turf where she has her support
    systems around her, where she isn't alone.  He wouldn't have
    to see you - from what you've said it's not time for that.
    
    --Louise

Louise,

I hope the plane ticket is a round trip ticket...

RE: .*

You are all wonderfull people, especially Maria and Ken!!!

Once more, I will play the devil's advocate...

I know that being a single parent is hard.  I also believe that not being a
parent to your children is Hell.  If it is against your will it is very hard
because other people do it to you.  Even if it is your choice though, you still
don't escape the pain, it just takes another form, because you do it to
yourself; you punish yourself.   It's no surprise to me that many exspouses and
exparents are in bad shape.  The experience is enough to destroy anyone, or
enough to make you want to destroy yourself.

You are doing the right thing Maria.

Jim. 

    Maria, the same type of thing happened to me 16 years ago - but
    I was in your daughters shoes.  
    
    I guess what I would suggest thinking about is your reaction, instead
    of your daughters decision.  My mom had similar opinions/feelings
    towards my dad when he chose to contact me after 10 years of never
    hearing from him.  Yes, it may be a little selfish of the father,
    but who's to say that he has to take the guilt with him when he's
    gone. 
    
    The way I looked at it, was that it may have taken my dad 10 years
    to come around to claiming some responsibility of a parent, but
    I had to at least find out what his motivation was.  Believe me,
    I've never forgotten that it was my Mom who was the one who stuck
    it out on her own to take care of me.  But I still was curious to
    know who he was, and then make a decision if I wanted him to be
    a part of my life or not.  
    
    I think my mom was a little bit threatened that my dad would win
    me over and I would choose him over her.  She had a lot of bitterness
    towards him and a lot of resentment.  And she hated the fact of
    my meeting him.  But she let me make the choice - and she certainly
    didn't lose me to my father.  
    
    I know that I benefited from it all.  I am not sure how it effected
    her.  Today, I still keep in touch with him, and get to visit once
    in a while.  I kind of wish that I knew him a little better.  I
    know why my mom is so resentful towards him, and I understand, but
    I don't have to be resentful also.  All I know is that for whatever
    reason, if it is something your daughter wishes to do, let her do
    it and try to keep your hostility from making her feel guilty, etc.
    because of her choice.  
    
    It will all work out.  You really don't have anything to fear. 
    Except for the possible power you may be feeding to your emotions.
    
    Talk to her about it and don't see this as a threat.
    
    Good luck. 
              

    Hi Maria,
    
    This is a beautiful note.  I hope you make copies for yourself *and*
    your daughter.  If not now, maybe later she will be able to read
    your notes that were not meant for her, but will tell her what you
    went thru and how you feel.  I can hear you changing as you respond
    to these replies.  You have had everything bottled up in you.  I
    worked with you for a year, and had no inclination of what you went
    thru.
    
    I is a month since your last note.  What happened?
    
    Best regards,
    David Fitzgerald

    Hi David,
    
    What a surprise to log in and find a note directed at me first.
    
    Thanks for your kind words; hope you are OK.
    
    Maria