| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 635.1 | | AKOV03::HAMEL | Ken Hamel | Mon Dec 12 1988 16:05 | 18 |
| I feel all children should have a choice .. and should be exposed
to the choices which are available to them. Christmas carries a
secular message .. (i.e. peace and goodwill towards mankind) and
eliminating any form of celebrating that message is unacceptable.
More than ever, we need to ingrain that message on today's youth.
Christmas also carries a religious message, celebration of the birth
of Christ. Being brought up through catholic schools, and as a
practicing christian, I hold this latter message as the primary
meaning of this season. But that is my belief.
In short, if I had kids in school I would want them exposed to the
numerous celebrations of the season .. again, so that they know
of the "choices" (and that includes christian traditions, jewish
traditions, etc) .. These days, our society tends to be paranoid
about religious messages ruling the world .. I could think of
worse influences.
|
| 635.2 | There are other ways to teach peace and love. | BOOKLT::AITEL | Everyone's entitled to my opinion. | Mon Dec 12 1988 16:16 | 27 |
| I have fairly strong opinions on this subject.
I was brought up Jewish in a typical, strongly non-jewish, town.
I always HATED the christmas season. The season seemed to accentuate
my feeling that I was different, since I was one of few Jewish kids
in the school. I remember being told to sing christmas carols,
and feeling dirty for singing the word "christ" since my mother
had told me that I shouldn't. I would usually leave that word
out, but I'd still feel awful about singing the religious songs
(away in a manger, noel, silent night) since the meaning was still
there, even if I left out a few names. In spanish class, I was
*required* to sing the songs, since they were "part of the experience
of learning the language" according to the teacher. I refused,
and got a C for the term. One time in grade school we made christmas
ornaments in art class. I brought mine home, and my mother was
very upset at me for bringing it into the house.
I could go on and on.
The point is, christmas is NOT a secular holiday. The tree, the
lights, the stars, the songs all have religious meaning. For someone
who is strongly oriented to another religion, participating in these
celebrations can be sacrilige. Forcing a child to choose between
commiting sacrilige behind his parents' backs OR looking like a
total outsider is not fair.
--Louise
|
| 635.3 | | COMET::INDERMUEHLE | | Mon Dec 12 1988 17:41 | 6 |
|
Well, I'm pro-CHRISTmas, but if my daughter could learn more about Judiasm,
I think I'd be thrilled. There's a lot more I wish I knew about the "chosen
people and their traditions." It just seems that if part is going to be
banned, then it all should all be banned. (Then I don't have to worry about
my daughter dealing with Santy-claus and commercialism.)
|
| 635.4 | | HANDY::MALLETT | Split Decision | Mon Dec 12 1988 17:48 | 27 |
| 635.5 | ...and justice for all (who believe?) | KYOA::HANSON | Really? I'm a Secular Humanist?? | Mon Dec 12 1988 18:29 | 42 |
|
You know, I can never recall this type of issue being discussed
so hotly in the past as it seems to be now. I'm sure that there
have been opinions voiced, both pro and con, for many years now,
but only lately has it seemed that people are trying to do some-
thing about it.
I, too, have very strong opinions on the matter, but it is neither
for nor against Christmas, Easter, Chanukah, or any other "religious"
holiday celebration. It is for freedom of choice and diversity
of exposure
It's quite simple, I think. Though I am not really a patriot, in
the "zealot" sense of the word, I sincerely believe that one of
the fundamental things holding this country together is the variety
and diversity of the people. Wasn't that what this country was
founded upon? Freedom of speech... religion... belief? And isn't
this also ensured by our constitution?
What irks me beyond all else is when groups or individuals not only
object to a given "practice", but would seek to prevent others from
"practicing". This doesn't happen, you might say? Look at what's
happening in the schools, as in .0 Look at the Texas book-bannings,
and those around the rest of the country. Look at censorship of
all forms... TV, radio, newspapers... everywhere.
People, it would seem, are seeking to REDUCE our diversity. To
limit that which we can see, do, and feel... Categorizing what is
"proper" and "neccessary" versus that which "is not."
Frankly, I think when you take away the choice(s), you take away
the freedom(s). When you dumb-down a school, you develop ignorance.
When you dictate what is right or wrong, you perpetuate intolerant
attitudes. No, rather I would see MORE freedom... More choice...
More tolerance... More understanding. If everyone were to understand
that variety is indeed the spice of life, I think we all might just
get along a little bit better.
Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be going that way of late, and
That... makes me very sad about the future of "freedom."
Bob
|
| 635.6 | | APEHUB::STHILAIRE | Golden days before they end | Mon Dec 12 1988 18:37 | 28 |
| I also have very mixed feelings. As a non-church going agnostic,
who was raised in a Protestant (Methodist/Congregationalist) home,
I love the tradition of Christmas but, although I'm all for love
and peace on earth, the holiday really has no religious significance
for me.
It strikes me as ironic that Jewish people see Christmas decorations
and think of Jesus, while I who was raised to be a Christian see
the decorations and usually don't!
I have to confess that I, too, would miss the Christmas decorations
if I were a student in school. I don't know if we should give equal
time Jewish holidays in public schools or if we should exclude all
the religious holidays. Maybe it would help if everyone (teachers,
students, etc.) didn't act as though everybody were a Christian
but openly discussed the fact that there are other religions in
the world, too, and that they are all to be respected, and that
nobody has to sing carols or get involved who doesn't want to.
I have heard and read of how much Christmas bothers Jewish people
before. I know of one former Jewish co-worker whose daughter came home
from kindergarten and angrily told her family that she wanted to
have a Xmas tree, Xmas gifts, and hang her stocking for Santa just
like all her friends. I don't know how it was all finally resolved
for them.
Lorna
|
| 635.7 | Open minded | NSSG::FEINSMITH | I'm the NRA | Mon Dec 12 1988 18:39 | 26 |
| Growing up somewhat similiar to .2, I still have a different view.
While in school, I never had any problems with the Christmas season
or the celebrations. As I got to college, I partook like the rest
of my friends because that was the time of year. I have a very open
view of religion (much to the dismay of my parents who had the same
philosophy as those in .2), all religions. I can feel at home just
as much in a Synagogue as a Church. Considering that all the
Judeo-Christian beliefs have one God in common (though the differences
take off from there), I don't have to accept someone elses beliefs
to enjoy the activities around them. When I am in a Catholic Church
(and I've been to 4 weddings and a christening in recent years),
just because I don't go up to receive Sacrement, I still can appreciate
the beauty of the service. MY point is that you don't have to accept
everything about Christmas to just enjoy the beauty and activities
around it.
The law suits to secularize the schools are brought by a small group
of people, but this unfortunately reflects on the group as a whole.
I have never tried to impose my religious will on anyone else, rather
I can appreciate what each individual religion has and respect those
who believe in it, without feeling threatened. The Christmas time
is exactly that time of year. I am bringing my son up the same way,
and hope he can be as open minded with his children when he gets
older.
Eric
|
| 635.8 | Thoughts from an "etc" | SKYLRK::OLSON | green chile crusader! | Mon Dec 12 1988 18:40 | 71 |
| re .0- Ed,
Good topic, and I also appreciated the sentiments expressed in .2.
I personally found some of your phrasing offensive, and deduced
that you were probably a Christian yourself. I'm not, and I'll
try not to flame here as I point out what offended me.
Someone else pointed out how they felt as a child subjected to
Christian influences at school and opposing influences at home;
I was raised Catholic so I didn't have that conflict then, but having
individually renounced that way of life for philosophical reasons
as an adult, I find the Christian trappings associated with my
celebration of X-mas season to be intrusive and offensive. I can
only imagine that it must be much more confusing for a child who
would usually not have the strength of individuality required to
buck our culture's mainstream religion.
> That is a bit harsh, but it appears that non-Christians (read Jews,
> athiests (sp?), etc.)
This was weird, but I found being lumped in with the "etc" as
the most offensive part of the whole note. I'm philosophically
non-theistic. It would have been less offensive to me (and perhaps
to others, though I speak for no one else) had you stopped at
"non-Christians" without your parenthetical delineation.
> are unhappy about the traditional Christmas
> celebrations being used in the schools. Some have even objected
> to the Christmas tree. Now, I will admit that we must try to be
> fair as much as possible, but let's be real. The Christmas tree
> is a tradition which is as non-religious as we are going to get.
I refuse to patronize businesses that overtly use Christian themes
or preach Christian messages, and I have on occasion written these
businesses letters telling them why they don't receive my business.
[I don't write coercive or abusive letters, merely state that their
choice to bring religious trappings into their enterprise has cost
them my patronage.] Christmas trees don't set me off in particular,
but with my sensitivity to symbolism heightened, I can see how some
people *do* find the tree inappropriate for tax-funded public schools.
> I wonder if these concerns are a sign of our troubled times or a
> contributing cause. Or are they a little of both?
I have a definate opinion that these are a symptom of intolerance
on both sides of the line, not a cause.
> I feel that if there is to be no Christmas celebration, then there
> should be no Hannakuh or Yom Kippur or anything else.
Sponsored and paid for by tax dollars, I agree. Christmas celebrations
in the schools have been subsidized in this fashion for years...the
other holidays you mention were not (at least in my school districts,
correct me anybody with other experience in *public* school systems.)
> Am I being unfair about feeling that certain traditions should be
> considered non-religious, regardless of their origins?
Ed, I call my holiday celebration around 25 December X-mas. I DO
consider it non-religious, its a time for me to party, give and
receive gifts and be of good cheer. People who send me
well-intentioned but excessively religious greeting cards are
appreciated for the intent, but I don't keep the cards, either!
So I have converted MY traditions into a non-religiously oriented
holiday. Whatever anybody wants to do privately is their own affair.
But when its not private, but publicly funded, I can see a very strong
case for people who don't like to see public institutions (which spend
tax dollars) promoting religious traditions.
DougO
|
| 635.9 | Then Why Call It Christmas? Winter Solstice is OK. | FDCV16::ROSS | | Mon Dec 12 1988 19:03 | 41 |
|
.0 > I was reading the paper and came across an article which I felt
.0 > was somewhat indicative of the current times. The article was about
.0 > the schools trying to eliminate Christmas from their buildings.
.0 > That is a bit harsh, but it appears that non-Christians (read Jews,
^^^^
.0 > athiests (sp?), etc.) are unhappy about the traditional Christmas
^^^^^^^^
.0 > celebrations being used in the schools. Some have even objected
.0 > to the Christmas tree.
Eddie, I think you left out Buddhists, Muslims (as well as a bunch of
other, non-Christian religions) - and, of course, "Godless, pinko Commies"
from your exhaustive list.
.0> I feel that if there is to be no Christmas celebration, then there
.0> should be no Hannakuh or Yom Kippur or anything else. Easter
.0> celebration has already been removed from schools.
I don't recall Yom Kippur being celebrated in public schools, although
Jewish students may take the day off to attend religious services.
Can you give some specific instances of the so-called "celebration"?
.0> Am I being unfair about feeling that certain traditions should be
.0> considered non-religious, regardless of their origins?
Unfair? Perhaps. Parochial? Definitely.
.1> Christmas also carries a religious message, celebration of the birth
.1> of Christ. Being brought up through catholic schools, and as a
.1> practicing christian, I hold this latter message as the primary
.1> meaning of this season. But that is my belief.
And that is exactly the problem in our pluralistic society. We
shouldn't depend upon public schools to carry the messages of
any religion. That what our synagogues, churches and families are
supposed to do.
Alan
|
| 635.11 | Being A Minority Even When You're A Majority | FDCV16::ROSS | | Mon Dec 12 1988 19:21 | 61 |
| Re: .2
Louise, I'm reprinting something I entered in BAGELS, a little over
a year ago, which seems germane to your experiences. It has been
shortened somewhat from the original entry there.
**********************************************************************
<<< IAGO::DUA0:[NOTES$LIBRARY]BAGELS.NOTE;1 >>>
-< BAGELS and other things of Jewish interest >-
================================================================================
Note 360.20 REGISTRATION 20 of 21
FDCV03::ROSS 70 lines 23-SEP-1987 13:59
-< The Audubon and Other Tales >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave, I, too, had Mr. Weitzman for my fifth grade teacher. He was
"expelled" from teaching because he was alleged to be, or have been,
a communist. Don't forget that was back in the early to mid-50's,
and McCarthy and his goons had America looking for "those dirty
commies" under every bed.
One of my great memories in Weitzman's class was when I drew a
Jewish Star on the top of the Christmas tree I had drawn. I had
no concept of a five-pointed star. Weitzman almost plutzed; he
took my drawing around the school to show it to all the other
teachers ("all" being about eight, 3 or 4 of whom were Jewish).
Looking back now, that was a pretty shitty thing for the Boston
School Department to do: To require kids in a virtually all-Jewish
elementary school (out of 200 kids, there was one gentile) to draw
Christmas trees, sing Christmas carols, have Christmas candy passed
out to them. Of course, Chanukah was never mentioned. I wonder if
any of our parents objected in their hearts. Back then, it seemed,
nobody ever questioned any authority figures. No doubt, if our parents
had raised a stink, they would have been told that it was school
policy, to mind their own business, and who the hell did THEY think
they were trying to tell the School Department what was appropriate.
When I went to Milton High, Jews made up, perhaps 10 percent of
the school population. Of course the teachers ALWAYS would schedule
exams for the Jewish Holidays and say something like: "Oh, YOU
PEOPLE aren't going to be here? You CAN'T miss those tests". We
did. They bitched. But, unlike the stance our parents took when
we were in the Audubon - not to make waves - the Rabbi from Temple
Shalom went to the Milton School Committee and the board of Selectmen
and "persuaded" them to stop penalizing the Jewish students for
not being in school on the Holidays. Not surprisingly, the teachers
managed to schedule exams for all students on non-Holidays. The
educational integrity of Milton Public Schools survived this "religious"
interference. One or two of us even were accepted by colleges. :-)
Where I live now, Sharon, the Jewish kids don't have to worry about
missing tests on the Jewish Holidays. In fact, even the non-Jewish
kids don't. The schools are CLOSED, period. What a difference two
generations make!
Alan
|
| 635.12 | | AKOV13::FULTZ | ED FULTZ | Mon Dec 12 1988 19:33 | 32 |
| When I tried to identify some non-Christians, I did so because I
was afraid that I would not be understood. You see, I look at Jews
within the Christian label. Am I incorrect here? I meant no
disrespect, nor any unkindness by the "etc.".
As for taking of Jewish holidays, I can't recall any specific examples
when I was in regular school, but when I was in college, the school
was regularly scheduled around the Jewish holidays. I believe that
Yom Kippur is sometime early September or so? We started school
especially late one year because of this. Yet, we did not get Easter
off. Granted there was a spring break. But this occurs regardless
of the holiday.
I guess my original concern was that if we continue to try to sanitize
our schools, where will our many traditions come from? I can recall
happy things from school around the holidays. Granted, I am a
Catholic, so the religious aspects of the holiday are in keeping
with my religion. But why can we not simply play down some the
religious aspects and still keep the enjoyment aspects. I believe
it was the Westford school system that originally totally banned
any ornaments, trees, etc. There was such an outcry from the teachers
and parents that I think they are reconsidering (or have reconsidered)
their decision. A similar (though less radical) proposal is being
made in Chelmsford. I just fear that many of the things that we
got to enjoy as children are being denied our children. If this
happens, what will they have to pass on to their children?
This country is the greatest in the world. I am saddened to see
us spending so much energy fighting such issues when there are
definitely more critical and pressing issues to be worked.
Ed..
|
| 635.13 | Mark the "strongly disagree" box | JAMMER::JACK | Marty Jack | Mon Dec 12 1988 19:42 | 16 |
| <<< Note 635.12 by AKOV13::FULTZ "ED FULTZ" >>>
> When I tried to identify some non-Christians, I did so because I
> was afraid that I would not be understood. You see, I look at Jews
> within the Christian label. Am I incorrect here? I meant no
> disrespect, nor any unkindness by the "etc.".
Do I understand that you believe Judaism is a Christian religion?
> This country is the greatest in the world. I am saddened to see
> us spending so much energy fighting such issues when there are
> definitely more critical and pressing issues to be worked.
There is little more critical and pressing than ensuring that
every American's freedom to be part of a minority and yet free
of discrimination or harassment by the majority is retained.
|
| 635.14 | | HANDY::MALLETT | Split Decision | Mon Dec 12 1988 20:22 | 28 |
| 635.15 | Clarification | BOOKLT::AITEL | Everyone's entitled to my opinion. | Mon Dec 12 1988 20:48 | 18 |
| Ed,
Although the Jewish, Christian, and Moslem religions all
include parts of the Torah in their holy books, they greatly
diverge from that point. Most Jews, myself included, do not
consider themselves part of the Christian faith or tradition.
I do not advocate removing teaching *about* various religions
from schools. That is part of learning about the world around
us. I do advocate removing the celebration of religious holidays
from the schools. If we celebrated, without favoritism, all
holidays from all religions, we would have no time for education.
My traditions were not learned in public school, but in Sunday school
and my home. I would hope that any parent who wishes to teach
religious traditions will teach them through gatherings and schools
of faith and through their own practices.
--Louise
|
| 635.16 | Can't reduce what doesn't exist | COGMK::CHELSEA | Mostly harmless. | Mon Dec 12 1988 21:03 | 6 |
| Re: .5
>People, it would seem, are seeking to REDUCE our diversity.
Where is the diversity in only Christmas (and Christian holidays)
being recognized by public school activities?
|
| 635.17 | Keep it out of the schools | SSDEVO::YOUNGER | Never dream with a cynic | Mon Dec 12 1988 21:32 | 27 |
| I am for removing all religious celebrations from public schools.
Period. I still advocate teaching *about* religions in public schools.
Since many children come from families of religious backgrounds,
they should be allowed to take X days off for religious observance
- Christian, Jewish, Moslem, Hindu, Wiccan, whatever. I'm not sure
what to do about the kids from non-religious background - either
allow them to take these days on the days of their choice or not
at all (hopefully doing better in school that way). For planning
purposes, the children should give a note to the school from their
parents stating what days they need off for religious observance
that year early in the school year. That way a teacher would know
what days (s)he couldn't plan tests on.
In private (religious or otherwise) schools, they should make their
own rules. Catholic schools would be expected to celebrate Catholic
holidays. Since these schools are privately funded, they are allowed
to celebrate whatever they wish, whenever they wish, and any they
offend should simply stay out of that private school.
This way we wouldn't have people complaining about Christmas,
Halloween, Easter, or any other days. A secularly run school should
have no part in religious traditions. If your religious tradition
is important to you, you are free to celebrate it all you want in
your home or church.
Elizabeth
|
| 635.18 | | SSDEVO::CHAMPION | It's the same, only different | Mon Dec 12 1988 21:50 | 10 |
| I have to agree with Elizabeth. I believe that religion belongs
in the heart, at home, and at one's place of worship. Teach the
children ABOUT how different groups celebrate their respective
holidays, but let them be celebrated at home.
Peace.
Carol
|
| 635.19 | | AKOV13::FULTZ | ED FULTZ | Tue Dec 13 1988 13:18 | 32 |
| Thank you for the correction on Judaism.
As for the rest. Am I understanding correctly that you would have
the schools be totally sanitized from all outside influences? No
Easter/Spring break, no Haloween party (Haloween is not a religious
holiday by the way), no Christmas party (for BOTH teachers and
students), etc? If I were working in such an atmosphere, I think
I would not be very happy. People must be allowed to express and
enjoy the spirit of the times.
Christmas has many non-religious aspects to it. There is the peace
and goodwill to all. The beauty of the decorations. The happiness
which always seems to pick up around this time of year (and sadly
seems to decrease afterwards).
I agree that not all traditions should be maintained, if they are
harmful to the children. I honestly cannot answer Louise, except
to say that all professions have people who are not especially
sensitive. I think that I could always find a person(s) with whom
to object and therefore dislike in the school environment. That
is not the point. The point is that why did these issues not arise
in previous - seemingly less complicated - generations?
I cannot profess to have answers to all of the questions. This
is why I raised the issue here. To gain insight from a vastly more
diversified audience than just myself. However, I think I still
feel that there are ways to celebrate the seasons and not make the
schools so sanitized as to be boring.
Am I wrong? I hope not.
Ed
|
| 635.20 | Fertility Dances Sound Nice | FDCV13::ROSS | | Tue Dec 13 1988 14:14 | 48 |
| Re: .19
> Thank you for the correction on Judaism.
Ed, I'm curious. I know you (since we used to work in the same
department) to be a well-read, educated person. I also know that
you were raised in the Northeast - a place where Jews are not an
entirely unknown species. Why is it that you were so unknowledgeable
about Jews and Judaism? (For that matter, Christianity?)
> (Haloween is not a religious holiday by the way), .
I think you'll find quite a few Fundamentalist Christians disagreeing
with you on that comment.
> I agree that not all traditions should be maintained, if they are
> harmful to the children. I honestly cannot answer Louise, except
> to say that all professions have people who are not especially
> sensitive. I think that I could always find a person(s) with whom
> to object and therefore dislike in the school environment. That
> is not the point.
Ah, but Ed, that is *exactly* the point. Louise stated how she felt:
an outsider, because she did not subscribe to the beliefs of the
surrounding majority. Are you saying she was being too sensitive?
> The point is that why did these issues not arise in previous -
> seemingly less complicated - generations?
Probably for the same reasons that blacks, in the South, accepted
their "proper place" (separate rest rooms, segregated lunch counters,
riding in the back of the bus), until Martin Luther King and other
civil rights leaders gave Voice to their collective dis-satisfaction.
These religious/racial issues had always existed, but I can see
how a white Christian could perceive those "good ole' days" as
seemingly less complicated. Just because some minorities chose,
in the past, not to rock the boat, didn't mean they were happy
with the situation.
> However, I think I still
> feel that there are ways to celebrate the seasons and not make the
> schools so sanitized as to be boring.
Wiccans have some "colorful" celebrations for the seasons. :-)
Alan
|
| 635.21 | | NSSG::FEINSMITH | I'm the NRA | Tue Dec 13 1988 14:28 | 23 |
| In re-reading some of the replies, I picked up some feelings that
I might have missed originally. I think a major point in reply .2
is "forced" participation. If Louise was forced into participating
in celebrations which were against her religious beliefs, then that
is wrong. However, if a person is allowed not to participate with
no penalty, then I see no problem in leaving these holidays in the
schools. The U.S. is not a "religionless" society, and we should
not totally "sanitize" our schools, as long as those who choose
not to participate in that portion of school activity, have that
choice.
I also see some characteristics in .2's upbringing which rubbed
me wrong when I was a child also. My parents had a similiar view,
which I later found very closed minded. Whatever you believe in,
it is not the only belief in the world, and may not be the only
"right" belief (as prev. mentioned, Fundamentalists may also disagree
with this view). To isolate your children from other experiences
is wrong. They don't have to accept these different beliefs, but
there is no harm in being exposed to them. If your beliefs are strong,
no amount of exposure to that which is "different" will do any harm
and may open your mind to the rest of the world.
Eric
|
| 635.22 | majority rules! | PARITY::FLATHERS | | Tue Dec 13 1988 15:40 | 6 |
|
Since the majority of Americans are Christians, I say it stays in
the schools. If my kids were exposed to celebrations of the Jewish
faith for example, it wouldn't bother me at all. I see no threat
in learning a bit about other religions. Cults excluded of course.
|
| 635.23 | Off on a Halloween tangent | WEA::PURMAL | I don't want the world, just your half | Tue Dec 13 1988 16:32 | 62 |
| re: Halloween
Beyond the form feed is a little history of Halloween. But
to be brief it's believed to have it's origin in the Druid Festival
of Samhain.
ASP
The Celtic festival of Samhain is probably the source of the
present-day Halloween celebration. The Celt's new year began November
1. A festival that began the previous night honored Samhain, the
Celtic lord of death. The celebration marked the beginning of cold,
darkness and decay. It naturally became associated with human death.
The Celts believed that Samhain allowed the souls of the dead to
return to their Earthly homes for this evening.
On the evening of the festival, the Druids, who were the priests
and teachers of the Celts, ordered the people to put out their hearth
fires. The druids built a huge new year's bonfire of oak branches,
which they considered sacred. They burned animals, crops and possibly
even human beings as sacrifices. Then each family relit their hearth
fire from the new year's fire. During the celebration people sometimes
wore costumes made of animal heads and skins. They told fortunes
about the coming year by examining the remains of the animals that
had been sacrificed.
The Romans conquered the Celts in A.D. 43 and ruled for 400
years. During this time they combined two Roman autumn festivals
with the Celtic festival of Samhain. One of them called Feralia,
was held in late October to honor the dead. The other honored Pomona,
the goddess of fruit and trees. Apples probably became associated
with Halloween because of this festival.
Many of the customs of the Celts survived even after the people
became Christians. During the 800's the church established All Saints
Day on November 1. The people made the old pagan rituals part of
this Christian holy day. The church later began to honor the day
on November 2, All Souls Day.
Regional Halloween customs developed among various groups of
Celts. In Ireland, for example, people begged for food in a parade
that honored Muck Olla, a god. The leader of the parade wore a
white robe and a mask made from the head of an animal. In Scotland
people paraded through fields and villages carrying torches. They
lit huge bonfires on hillsides to drive away witches and other evil
spirits. In Wales, every person marked a stone and put it into
a bonfire. The people believed that if a person's stone was missing
the next morning, he or she would die within a year.
Halloween in the United States because early American settlers
came from England and other Celtic regions and they brought various
customs with them. But because of the strict religious beliefs
of other settlers, Halloween celebrations did not become popular
until the 1800's. During that period large numbers of immigrants
arrived from Ireland and Scotland and introduced their Halloween
customs.
ASP
(I know, no one wanted to know *that* much about Halloween)
|
| 635.24 | | HANDY::MALLETT | Split Decision | Tue Dec 13 1988 16:47 | 11 |
| 635.25 | | NSSG::FEINSMITH | I'm the NRA | Tue Dec 13 1988 17:24 | 7 |
| RE: .24, somehow, when the non-majority can have an option of not
participating, I don't consider that the "majority ruling". If I'm
not comfortable with an activity, I won't participate, but as long
as no one tries to force me to participate, I have no right to try
and get it removed for those who want to.
Eric
|
| 635.26 | | COGMK::CHELSEA | Mostly harmless. | Tue Dec 13 1988 17:50 | 17 |
| Re: .25
>somehow, when the non-majority can have an option of not participating
Realistically, though, is that much of an option? Remember your
own school days and the awfulness of being different, weird or outside
the group. Even if you never experienced it yourself, you must
have *seen* an outsider or two in your school. How many of you
can honestly say that, as a young person between the ages of 6 and
18, you would have refused to participate? What do you suppose
would happen to those who didn't want to participate? Sent off
to the library or study hall during the rehearsal or art class?
When you get right down to it, everything is an option. But when
you examine the situation in more realistic terms and start looking
for *viable* options, you find that some of those 'options' are
no longer worth considering.
|
| 635.27 | Merry Generic Holiday! | SSDEVO::CHAMPION | It's the same, only different | Tue Dec 13 1988 21:14 | 72 |
|
Re - .19
>>> As for the rest. Am I understanding correctly that you would have
>>> the schools be totally sanitized from all outside influences?
:-) :-) :-) (Read - Can't Resist!)
"Sanitized". What a lovely word. Geez, that's what happens to bathrooms.
And "totally sanitized", yet. :-) :-) Seriously, maybe "immunized", if
there has to be a label. I'd love to see all the impressionable little
kids in an environment that is IMMUNE to ABSOLUTE opinion. But them's
pipe dreams, eh?
I don't object to schools teaching about the history of religion and how
various religions are celebrated, but I do object to ONE religion being
singled out above ALL others to be celebrated in school. And Christmas
is a Christian religious holiday. And Easter is a Christian religious
holiday.
Have a party. No problem. Exchange gifts, no problem. But maybe it's
best not to call it a Christmas party. Call it a "Peace on Earth,
Goodwill Toward All" party. Call it a "Generic Holiday" party.
But keep the religious innotations at home and at church.
>>> No Easter/Spring break, no Haloween party (Haloween is not a
>>> religious holiday by the way), no Christmas party (for BOTH
>>> teachers and students), etc?
Hah! You don't want traditions, you want an excuse to party! :-)
And there are a LOT of people who would disagree with your statement
about Halloween. There are various types of worshippers who live for
that day, and Christians who live to see it abolished. And then there
are some who ignore it because that's when their windows get soaped.
:-)
>>> Christmas has many non-religious aspects to it.
Hate to be the one to tell you, but the very name itself is a religious
aspect.
>>> The point is that why did these issues not arise in previous -
>>> seemingly less complicated - generations?
Many reasons. Mostly, IMHO, the issues were ignored. And those who
object to the "traditional practice" are finally taking the courage to
challenge them.
>>> However, I think I still feel that there are ways to celebrate
>>> the seasons and not make the schools so sanitized as to be boring.
Sure there is. Like I said, just don't call it a Christmas celebration.
(It's NOT prayer....it's a moment of SILENCE!)
>>> Am I wrong? I hope not.
You're not wrong. I just don't agree with some of what you said.
:-)
Re - .22
>>> -< majority rules! >-
Oh? And if the majority of Americans were Pagan? Then what?
Carol
|
| 635.28 | If I have to pay taxes, some things I won't stand for! | SKYLRK::OLSON | green chile crusader! | Tue Dec 13 1988 22:29 | 11 |
| re .25, Eric-
Chelsea answered the first part, about "enforced participation"
among children, but I couldn't let this pass either.
> I have no right to try and get it removed for those who want to.
Who pays for it? In a public school, my tax dollars will NOT be
used to subsidize ANY religion. I do have that right.
DougO
|
| 635.29 | is Christmas necessarily religous? | WMOIS::B_REINKE | Mirabile dictu | Wed Dec 14 1988 01:08 | 32 |
| There was a column in the (gulp) Boston Herald on this
subject yesterday. (honest I only read it for the columns
and the comics :-) ) (this is a Massachusetts in joke to
be ignored by all others, sorry for the digression).
The point of the column was that almost all of the commonly
used Christmas traditions and decorations are not related
to the Biblical story of Christ's birth and the religion that
evolved from that time. Many of the tradtions, for example the
tree, yule log, mistletoe, were N European pagan traditions
(and that includes the day we celebrate Christmas) that were
incorparated by early Missionaries.
In other words, many of the 'Christmas' traditions aren't specifically
Christian but rather older non Christian customs and feasts
that the church 'took over'.
So while I deeply appreciate that my Jewish brothers and sisters
don't want their traditions and celebrations diluted by Christian
observances... there are reasonable arguements in favor of the idea
that a lot of our American traditional late December holiday is
an amalgam of a lot of different cultural traditions..and really
isn't specifically Christian..
are you all aware..for example, that Christmas is a major holiday
in Japan which has a very small Christian population? They celebrate
with a tree, and Santa, etc.. but it is a celebration of gift giving
and family not of the birth of Jesus (who wasn't born in Dec
anyway...since shepherd only 'watch' their flocks at night in lambing
season in the spring.).
Bonnie
|
| 635.30 | Believe in Freedom of Choice | AKOV11::PARSONS | CHAR | Wed Dec 14 1988 12:55 | 29 |
| Ed, I have had great interest in your subject re "Christmas in
the schools" as my husband works in one of the schools in Westford
where this was a very hot issues. I guess my fear is the "freedom"
also being taking away from us. Not being allowed to do the things
we would like to do regarding Christmas or any other religous holiday
for that matter. In the school where Bob (my husband) works they
have always enjoyed making the Christmas decorations, having Santa
come, which Bob will not be allowed to do this year and he is very
upset about that as he enjoyed making the children happy and also
used to read "The Night Before Christmas" to them. The teachers
have always been very open with the students and have shown the
children all forms of the Christmas holiday in other faiths and
countries. They have had people come in and share with them their
religous practices and the children are well informed and share
the values of others. Never have they only been taught the Christian
practices of Christmas.
My concern is that if we are not allowed to share these things together
and told that they will no more be able to enjoy making the
decoractions, etc that our freedom of choice, religion, vote, or
all of our freedoms are gradually being taken away from us without
us even being aware of it, then all of a sudden we will find ourselves
without these freedoms fought for by the men and women of this country.
I am glad that the parents took a stand and thank God, won. We
have to be willing to take a stand for what we believe in - if not
then this wonderful country of ours will diminish. Also, I have
great respect for the other faiths and feel that we should all learn
and understand them together.
|
| 635.31 | | COMET::INDERMUEHLE | | Wed Dec 14 1988 13:13 | 17 |
| < Note 635.22 by PARITY::FLATHERS >
-< majority rules! >-
> Since the majority of Americans are Christians, I say it stays in
the schools.
Don't you mean "the manority of Americans are gentiles?" :^):^)
I, too, like the idea of keeping the holidays, but even back in old
Testament times, people who didn't share the same holidays weren't forced
into participating in each others special occasions. (The Egyptians
and the Moabs vs the Jewish.)
|
| 635.32 | | NSSG::FEINSMITH | I'm the NRA | Wed Dec 14 1988 14:12 | 21 |
| The world can't be made perfectly comfortable for every group within
it. There are enough different beliefs, that not everyone can be
satisfied at all times.I see nothing wrong in exposing my 7 year
old son to beliefs that might be different from those at home, I
actually encourage that type of dialogue. I was brought up in a
home where it was "us and them", and that attitude disgusts me to
no end. Perhaps that's why religious life in my house is "open"
to other's beliefs and those beliefs are respected as much as any
my family has. To those who don't want any Christmas celebrations
in school, would you partake in a wedding ceremony in a house of
worship different from yours? Would you allow your child attend
a Bar Mitzvah or a Confirmation of a friend in their house of worship?
What I'm trying to say is that, do you fear something from those
who believe differently from you? I have attended Jewish Bar Mitzvahs
and weddings and Catholic christenings and weddings. I have been
to religious services for Jews, Catholics, Methodists, and Episco-
pals, and felt enriched by each. I only hope my son grows up and
feels the same way.
Eric
|
| 635.33 | | AKOV13::FULTZ | ED FULTZ | Wed Dec 14 1988 15:52 | 20 |
| I am glad to hear that the Westford parents and teachers won their
disagreement with the school board. Whenever one group of people,
however well-meaning they may be, tries to impose their will on
others there will be problems. This has been shown time and again
in schools, governments, etc.
I suspect that there will be no concensus about the celebration
of Christmas in schools. I don't honestly believe that there should
be. However, one thing does come to mind. There is a saying that
"if it ain't broke don't fix it". I sometimes wonder if we don't
pay enough attention to this axiom. In both Chelmsford and Westford
there did not appear to be anything broken. However, in both cases
the school board decided that it had better fix something. Would
we have been better off not tampering with what was there? Possibly.
It should be the concensus of the majority of parents that should
prevail. If the school board does not listen to the will of the
parents (as Westford finally did), then I believe the persons will
not be voted back at the next election.
Ed..
|
| 635.34 | | COGMK::CHELSEA | Mostly harmless. | Wed Dec 14 1988 16:01 | 11 |
| Re: .33
>Whenever one group of people, however well-meaning they may be,
>tries to impose their will on others there will be problems.
The people who wanted change tried to 'impose their will' on the
people who didn't want change, but the people who didn't want change
managed to 'keep their will imposed' on the people who did want
change. In any controversial decision, it works both ways. The
only way to avoid having one 'side' impose their will on the other
is to find a compromise.
|
| 635.35 | | NSSG::FEINSMITH | I'm the NRA | Wed Dec 14 1988 17:14 | 23 |
| RE: .34, but somehow, by removing all vestiges of "religion" out
of the schools (and this includes ANY celebrations around Christmas)
doesn't sound like much of a compromise to me. How much must we
bend over to accomodate say one person out of 1000? I still say
that as long as that one person has the right not to participate,
then let the rest of those involved enjoy themselves. Do you feel
that since athiests don't believe in God, that they should have
the right to demand the removal of "In God We Trust" from currency?
(and I realize that this is an extreme point). Should business
accomodate everyone's religious beliefs (assuming that company rules
were stated before employment) in such areas as days off for religious
reasons, special foods in the cafeteria, special work hours if these
changes would impact the company? Should we remove cigarette machines
or ban company parties just because one (or a few) employees say
that these things are against their beliefs? Should we ban library
books or modify reading lists in schools because some religious
groups find the material objectionable? My point is that you can't
make everyone happy, and as long as those who object have other
options, then we should leave such activities as Christmas activities
alone.
Eric
|
| 635.36 | I forgot my other point | RUTLND::KUPTON | 1988 Patriots - Just a Foot Away | Wed Dec 14 1988 18:03 | 18 |
|
My 9 year old daughter's class has a child who is a Jehovah
Witness. While other children in the class make decorations and
prepare for the Christmas Play (12 Days of Christmas) this little
girl makes scenery and other things that are not directly Christmas
in content. She makes props and such. She understands that her
parents beliefs preclude her from participating. Her parents demanded
that she be included in everything until it became a violation of
the religion. Personally, I think it unfair that parents beliefs
be forced upon their children and I'll leave it at that. The situation
has opened the eyes of the children in the class to the fact that
not everyone celebrates the same and has made them sensitive to
the feelings of others. In this regard, I would say that these kids
are realizing the true meaning of Christmas in sharing and
understanding the needs of their fellow human beings.
Ken
|
| 635.37 | | NSSG::FEINSMITH | I'm the NRA | Wed Dec 14 1988 18:31 | 30 |
| RE: .36-
> Personally, I think it unfair that parents beliefs
>be forced upon their children and I'll leave it at that.
I think you just hit the nail on the head as to why many young people
turn away from the religious beliefs of their parents. You can not
force someone to believe, religion is a very personal thing and
a commitment that the individual must make on their own. The parent
can try to set an example, but when the child is old enough to make
that decision, the parents must step back and let them. They may
stay with all the beliefs of their parents, some of the beliefs,
or different beliefs, but attempting to FORCE beliefs is a guarantee
that the child will turn away. Those who fear that exposure to
something different will cause their child to turn away have some
basic insecurities of their own to deal with. If the child's belief
is strong, they will stay with their own and just learn about others,
but if their own basic belief is not there, there is nothing the
parents can do which will prevent them from thinking on their own
at some point.
If I sound slightly bitter, its because I was brought up the way
I described it above (and in previous replies to this note), and it
does not work!! I swore that I would not do the same to my child,
and so far I haven't. He is exposed to many varied faiths and is
allowed to learn about each one. When he is mature enough, I will
allow him to make his own decision and will respect whatever that
decision is.
Eric
|
| 635.38 | sems like they are.... | SALEM::SAWYER | Alien. On MY planet we reason! | Thu Dec 15 1988 12:52 | 8 |
|
re: .27...carol...
"and if the majority of americans were pagan...then what?"
from my perspective i believe the majority of americans ARE pagan...
and i say that with a smile in my heart and an absolute lack of
malice!
|
| 635.39 | Are you sure you want to do this? | REGENT::BROOMHEAD | Don't panic -- yet. | Thu Dec 15 1988 15:40 | 28 |
| A few years ago, I was wrapping presents with a bunch of friends,
and remarked, "I love Christmas. It's so pagan!" One person
replied, "Yes, that's why my mother never let us have a Christmas
tree."
I think the true meaning of all the symbols should be taught: That
the wreath symbolizes eternity and rebirth in the cycle of the
year. That holly is the plant of death and resurrection sacred
to the Goddess. That mistletoe represents the death of the Savior
Baldur. (There's a lot to know about mistletoe; it's the title
plant of that cubit-long masterwork, _The_Golden_Bough_.) That
the Christmas tree is really the Tannenbaum, the Tree of the
Goddess (Tann, Danu, etc.). That the ornaments on the tree are
really offerings to the Old Gods.
And about that birthday business too. It should be explained that
December 25th was the birthday of the Savior Mithras before it was
the birthday of the Savior Jesus, and that the Savior Adonis was
born in a cave in Bethlehem before the Savior Jesus was, and that
even before then, that midnight on December 24th marks the end of
eternal night, because that was when the Goddess created the world
by giving birth to it out of Her own substance.
At other times, of course, the children could have explained to
them the true, pagan meanings of Halloween, St. Valentine's Day,
and Easter.
Ann B.
|
| 635.40 | | ANT::BUSHEE | Living on Blues Power | Thu Dec 15 1988 16:37 | 21 |
|
RE: .35
Eric, you seem to see nothing wrong in teaching religious
traditions in public schools as long as the student has
the options of not partaking. Sounds fine in print, but in
practice who's to say this is what will happen. When I was
in school I made it known I was athiest, when it came time
for the school to do a christmas play I didn't want to be a
part of it. The teacher wouldn't stand for this, "All my class
WILL be a part of the school play" was the response I got.
When I further refused my parents were called in for a conference
with the teacher, which they did back me. Still, the teacher
got even by forcing me to do an essay on the life and death
of Christ. Does this sound like having the option to not be
forced to alter my beliefs?
Keep religion at home and in the chruch where it belongs,
not forced upon students in public schools!!!
G_B
|
| 635.41 | | NSSG::FEINSMITH | I'm the NRA | Thu Dec 15 1988 17:22 | 19 |
| RE: .35, as you described it, you did not have that option not to
participate, which is wrong. . You should have had the right not to
be involved without any penalization, which was obvious not the case.
On the same token, I feel that you as an atheist do not have the right
to take away the pleasure the rest of the students would have from
the celebration. I've drawn some analogies in previous replies which,
I believe, can show where this can lead to. As long as a person
has another reasonable option, they should not have the right to then
impose their will on the majority. There should be alimit on how much
the institutions must bend to accomodate those of different beliefs,
when this accomodation has an excessive negative impact of the other
members of the institution. I should have the right to withdraw
my child from a (for example) sex-ed class whose material I find
objectionable, but I have NO right to force the school to cancel
it, if the majority of the parents want the program. The same can
be said for objectionable literature. If I don't want it in my home,
fine, but I shouldn't be able to impose my will on the whole.
Eric
|
| 635.42 | | HANDY::MALLETT | Split Decision | Thu Dec 15 1988 18:00 | 40 |
| 635.43 | Looking at it with open heart | SSDEVO::CHAMPION | It's the same, only different | Thu Dec 15 1988 18:21 | 18 |
| Re - .38
No problem! You'd be surprised at how well I relate to that comment.
:-)
Re - .39
Good info! And I wish they WOULD teach such origins in schools.
IMHO, it would help take the bite out of this "religion stuff" and
put the "peace and brotherhood" back into the holiday that much
more. Nice to know that the "Holiday of Peace" has a lot of roots,
and, thus, that much more meaning.
Carol
|
| 635.44 | | RAINBO::TARBET | | Fri Dec 16 1988 16:43 | 12 |
| <--(.38)
Rik, wash your mouth out with soap! The majority of americans may
not be the christians they profess to be (and Mark Twain's "Letter
From The Recording Angel" makes that point beautifully) but they
_d*mnsure_ ain't _pagans_!
<--(.39, .42?)
Ann and Steve, I'm with you guys.
=maggie
|
| 635.45 | keep the party...lighten up on the religion | SALEM::SAWYER | Alien. On MY planet we reason! | Mon Dec 19 1988 15:41 | 20 |
|
christmas should be...everywhere!
celebrations, holidays, partying are all neato things and we should
have them, and enjoy them, often...
however, the religious part of christmas should be brought into
schools as often as we bring in the topic of any mythical, primitive
religion.
until something is proven, physically, it is a myth.
wether 10 or 10 billion people BELIEVE it makes it no less a
myth.
if religions are brought into school as a topic of debate then
ALL religions should get equal air time and NONE should get preference
and NONE should be taught as if they were real....
god and zues and odin should all get equal billing.
if person wants to believe in the easter bunny or the great
pumpkin, big foot, god or santy claus that's their business....
but they don't have a right to force feed yet another naive
belief into the minds of children.
|
| 635.46 | Let's celibrate all religious holidays | GENRAL::XUAN | | Mon Dec 19 1988 20:57 | 6 |
| My $0.01 worth
I think we should celebrate all religious holidays. Imagine that!!
No more work or school, just spend time to celibrate!!!
Can-not-stay-serious-for-long-sorry
|
| 635.47 | No sanitation, please | YODA::BARANSKI | don't fake reality | Tue Dec 20 1988 17:56 | 74 |
| I would like everyone to be able to celebrate their own holidays as much as they
wish, and learn about other's holidays. This allows the most people the most
choice.
I don't consider the secular celebrations of 'Christmas' to be religious, but I
can see how nonChristians might have a problem with them. Some Jewish people
that I know celebrate Christmas as Christ-yet-to-come in a Jewish context. That
solution works for them.
"Forcing a child to choose between committing sacrilege behind his parents' backs
OR looking like a total outsider is not fair."
True, but is the problem other people celebrating Christmas, or is the problem
you being forced to celebrate Christmas, and your parent's reaction to that? Is
there any other solution that would be acceptable to you other then banning
Christmas?
"So I have converted MY traditions into a non-religiously oriented holiday.
Whatever anybody wants to do privately is their own affair. But when its not
private, but publicly funded, I can see a very strong case for people who don't
like to see public institutions (which spend tax dollars) promoting religious
traditions."
Why cannot the school celebrations be considered likewise non-religiously
oriented? What changes would need to be made to be considered so?
.... If you favor removing Christmas from the school calendar, no doubt you'd
want to remove Thanksgiving, Halloween, St. Valentines day, etc?? I'm against
such sanitation.
"I believe that religion belongs in the heart, at home, and at one's place of
worship."
I believe that my religion belongs in every aspect of my life. What you
describe sounds like a "Sunday morning Christian".
"Louise stated how she felt: an outsider, because she did not subscribe to the
beliefs of the surrounding majority. Are you saying she was being too sensitive?
"
Too sensitive in that situation? No, I don't think so. But if she said that
there was no way that she could stand any celebration of 'Christmas' in schools,
then, yes, I'd say she was too sensitive.
"Realistically, though, is that much of an option? Remember your own school
days and the awfulness of being different, weird or outside the group."
*THAT* is what needs changing, and changing that will have a lot further
reaching positive impact then simply removing Christmas celebrations from
school.
"Sent off to the library or study hall during the rehearsal or art class?"
I've never been in a school Christmas pageant... if one is wanted, it can easily
be done after school with no impact at all to the minority. I also don't see
the need to split up an art class, I am sure that a creative art instructor can
find some other special project for the minority to work on at the same time.
"I'd love to see all the impressionable little kids in an environment that is
IMMUNE to ABSOLUTE opinion."
I think that's a fair description of how such celebrations should be handled in
school.
"Who pays for it? In a public school, my tax dollars will NOT be used to
subsidize ANY religion. I do have that right."
Those who want it should pay for it.
"I think the true meaning of all the symbols should be taught"
Great Idea... although a lot of the symbols have more then one meaning.
Jim.
|