Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    
    Without trust and respect, love is not enough.  

    I wonder why he tells his buddy "everything."  Why does he need
    to?  Why does he want to?  Ask him.  Evidently, his friend is meeting
    some of his needs that you are not.  You need to find out what these
    are - and also realize that S.O.'s don't necessarily meet *all*
    of each others needs.
    
    Choose a quiet time, when you are both feeling amiable and tell
    him you have something important to discuss with him.  If you need
    to, write these things down before-hand, to sort them out in your
    mind.  You need to be direct and clear.
    
    The way I see it, you have three options:  you can continue with
    things as is, you can work together to resolve the situation, or
    you can go on with life and find another S.O..
    
    Don't dwell, don't hesitate.  Problems like this don't go away.
    (Unfortunately.)
    
    Good luck!
    
    Carol
    

          
        
    >I have been dating a man for almost 2 years now and my only problem
    >with our relationship is that he tells his best buddy *everything*!
    >I don't think it is so much as what we do in bed but more like my
    >most inner secrets and feelings.  I have tried to talk to him about
    >how that makes me feel but I don't think I am getting myself across
    >or maybe he just doesn't care.
     
    Hmmmmm.                                                         
    
    I'm not very tolerant of things like this.  I don't trust people
    very easily, and anything that might be construed as a betrayal
    on their part makes me awfully suspicious.  I know if someone did
    this to me, I would ask for an explanation *once*.  Once is
    circumstance.  Twice is happenstance.  Three times is enemy action.
    
    >Another thing he does that I can't understand is that instead of
    >telling me about his hard day at work or who he saw or what he did,
    >etc, he will go over to his buddy's house and work any problems he has
    >out with him.                          
    
    This might not be entirely the same thing.  There things I discuss
    with some people instead of others because it might be difficult
    to make them understand.  And there's a certain comfort in long-time
    friends.  Several of mine have told me things about themselves they
    never tell their lovers.  However, I'm getting the feeling you don't
    think he trusts you, which hurts, no doubt.     
    
    >  I do truely love him and don't want to let him go, he is very good
    >to me otherwise.
    
    I don't see what "otherwise" could be, but I'm not you.  As .1 pointed
    out, trust is very important.  Get together with him and make your
    feelings plain.  If you don't get satsifaction from that, well,
    I don't see you having another reasonable alternative but to look
    elsewhere.
    
    I hope it works out.
    
    DFW
                                                    

    
    		"This is no way to have a relationship."
    
    					--Doug

    
    He won't change, cut your losses. Aggravating characteristics will
    only be magnified over time and you'll probably become less and
    less tolerant of them. 
    
    			Best to you.

    This is not meant to be ragging or flaming or anything, but.
    
    *Some* men, raised with boys who are friends, and not girls who are
    friends, may carry around the wrong idea about women.  This may
    amount to:  
    
    Women can't be trusted with secrets
    Women "just don't understand" - about work, relationships, whatever
    Women make them uncomfortable so they can't "kick back and talk"
       like they can with "the guys".
    
    Also, if he is having difficulty talking to you about the relationship
    (particularly if things are going wrong) - then this is definitely
    a bad thing.  Getting another's perspective and advice (an outsider)
    can help when things are wrong - but the significant other should
    be told as well.  The wheel that doesn't squeak will never get greased
    - it'll wear down til it breaks.

    I have rarely seen this attitude, and often it's too late to change
    completely by the time these folks get into relationships, but TRY
    to work it out FIRST - and if it can't be salvaged....then scrap
    it.
    
    persevere -
    
    -Jody
    

    RE: .6
    
    That's a generalization, and a rather sexist stereotyped one at that. 
    
    I have lots of friends that I can open up to on various subjects.
    However, my SO is my best friend and gets to hear/see my soul to
    a greater depth than anyone else. But, there are people who I find
    it easy to talk to about different parts of me, but to whom I would
    never reveal other aspects.
    
    Again, I think that no one person can be all the support and friends
    and companions to any other person. But in a commmited relationship
    (or even semi-commited) I feel that your partner should come first.
    Particularly if it causes problems when you withdraw that
    communication, as in .0.
    
    If you really don't care about hearing about your SO's work, or sports
    or some other aspect of their life, then they can find someone else
    to talk to about that stuff. But if you deny someone the communication
    and interaction they want with you, then you are doing damage to
    your relationship, in my opinion.
                                     
    There's nothing wrong with men baring their souls to male friends,
    in fact, the world would probably be better if more of them could.
    But displacing the person who is supposed to be more important
    (even if only slightly) in favor of an outside relationship/friendship,
    can only lead to resentment on the SO's part.
    
    There's a fine line to tread in relationships between leaning/depending
    on one other person to the exclusion of all other friends, and
    excluding your SO by keeping all those other friendship exactly
    as they were before you formed the relationship.

    Those are some of the things that can make working at a relationship
    so much fun.
    
    Tamzen

    i would like to think that my SO could tell me anything,that i was
    his sole confidant,but alas there are some things which i dont deal
    with very well.i think i would be glad he had someone to talk to
    if he could not talk to me about certain things.sometimes we talk
    to other people about our relationships just to put things into
    perspective.
    
    kelly

RE: .0

"I have been dating a man for almost 2 years now and my only problem with our
relationship is that he tells his best buddy *everything*!"

How long has he had this buddy...?  If it's been considerably longer then he as
been dating you, then it's quite likely that he's gotten used to sharing the
important parts of his life with him.  And apparently, it's worked quite well
for him.

The thing to do, is to try to deepen your relationship with him (if both you &
he want it) so that you can take over this role, in a nonthreatening way. It is
important that both of you want this, or you might as well forget about it. 

I really question the need to be a SO's sole confidant.  Everybody needs as much
support in life as possible, don't undermine his.  There are many times,
especially when it involves you, that he will *need* another person to talk to
about it. 

RE .2

"I don't trust people very easily, and anything that might be construed as a
betrayal on their part makes me awfully suspicious."

I don't see this as being an *"betrayal"*.  That implies giving information
to the 'enemy', or using it against you.  I don't read that the problem is
lack of trust, either...

RE: cut your losses...

Again, I disagree that this is necessarily a bad situation, or that it's
an aggravating characteristic, or that the guy is pond scum...  

It's a question of fullfilling each other's needs.  If it fits, good.  If it
doesn't, try to work it out.  If it can't be worked out, and it's important to
you, find someone who fit's you better.  That is what it's all about.  But never
be afraid to learn from anybody... 

RE: Women can't be trusted with secrets

Or, again, it may just be a habit...

My preference is to have one person who can fullfill all my needs, and vice
versa.  I think that that is everybody's dream, but *usually* in reality, we
don't find that.  So, we can choose to be happy, or unhappy, with what we
have... 

Jim.

    This is betrayal pure and simple.  It would be betrayal if your
    mother blabbed your secrets to HER best friend, if your co-worker
    did it or your lover - it makes no difference.
    
    You have been tolerating this casual regard for your privacy and
    lack of interest in your concern over it for two years.  You will
    have a tough road ahead of you if you try and change the guy now.
    
    And it has nothing whatsoever to do with who is the "more important"
    figure in someone's life.  ANYTHING you accept from someone in
    confidence is your responsibility to protect.  You break that trust
    and you're scum.  The problem is your SO doesn't think he's breaking
    any trust.  He feels since all his secrets are confided in his buddy
    and you are his, then it follows that YOUR secrets get confided
    to his buddy too.  The problem is that you've put up with it for
    too long.  You should listen to your inner voice that prompted you
    to write this note.  You know you don't like it and you know you
    don't think it's right - yet you allow it.
    
    You've tried explaining your feelings to him but you don't think
    you're "getting across".  Getting across what?  TELL him what you
    feel, TELL him why, TELL him what you want and TELL him what you
    will do if he betrays your trust again - period.  Oh - and stand
    by your words.   You are not negotiating this aspect of your
    relationship you are stating your limits as we ALL must state our
    limits.  If/when you don't, you get your limits pushed and you end
    up po'd and blaming the other person for pushing your limits.  No
    go.  YOU set the limits and YOU enforce them just as he has limits
    beyond which HE will not be pushed.
    
    I am not telling you that you have the right to call all the shots
    in the relationship - no one person does.  But we have not only
    a right but a DUTY to define for ourselves what we will tolerate
    and what we cannot tolerate in relationships, communicate them clearly
    to our partners and enforce them.  Trust and confidence is absolutely
    necessary to you otherwise this would not bother you.  You'd better
    let this guy know it without hedging if you ever hope to have a
    satisfying relationship.  You should have settled this the very
    first time it happened.  Every day that goes by you loose your power
    to set limits he never thought you had.  I wouldn't wait a minute
    longer than I had to.  Guarding your heart around your lover is
    NO relationship at all - it's merely sex on his terms.  Don't settle
    for it.  No man respects a woman he can push around.
    
    And as far as "I love him otherwise"...
    
    You are constantly going to meet people who meet some of your
    qualifications but not all.  We can't really hope to meet an absolutely
    perfect partner or demand perfection from a marginal partner now
    can we?  That means YOU have to do some pre-relationship work and
    not put the burden on your lovers to just "know" how to please you. 
    
    You have to clearly define what you want from a man, what you can
    give and what you will NOT tolerate.  It's not nastiness, quite
    the opposite.  Your lover deserves to know how to make you happy
    and how NOT to cross your boundaries.   You do think he wants to make
    you happy, yes?????
    
    The scary part for you is since he's never given your privacy
    requirement much weight, he may see your words now as you just
    competing with his friend for his attention.  You must make it
    absolutely clear that he can share with his buddy any damn thing
    he wants about himself but that YOU are not a topic of conversation.
    And you must make it clear that this is not a negotiation.  Try
    and find one of his absolute limits, (and I know you know what they
    are), and tell him your limits are just as important.
    
    Don't be pushed - you'll lose his respect and when you do you're
    gonna lose him anyway and hate yourself for compromising your standards
    for nothing.

    RE:11
    
    I tend to agree with Sandy. I think you fulfill some things in his
    life and his friend something else. There is nothing wrong with
    that unless it interferes with the relationship. Your SO's actions
    are making you feel uncomfortable/unhappy so it does interfere.
    If after repeated attempts to rectify or discuss the problem yields
    the same result, he really doesn't care what you think. 
    
    This will be a problem that gets worse with time. You will become
    less tolerant as the problem continues. In time the relationship
    will fall apart. There is no reason for you to put up with actions
    and behavior that make you unhappy or uncomfortable. There are
    plenty of men in the world that listen to their SOs wants, needs
    and feelings and desire to make them happy and content. You probably
    would not put up with this from anyone else, so why put up with
    it from the one person who you should demand the most from.
    
    Drop back ten and punt!!!
    
    Bob

RE: .11

"This is betrayal pure and simple."

"You've tried explaining your feelings to him but you don't think you're
"getting across"."

It can't very well be betrayal if it wasn't gotten across; it's for sure not
"pure and simple".

"ANYTHING you accept from someone in confidence is your responsibility to
protect."

If it is made clear that it is in confidence; if not, you have to use you
own best judgement...

Any person in a relationship who cannot discuss that relationship with anyone
else have just *doubled* the chances of the relationship failing.  You *need*
to be able to talk things out...

Jim. 

>It can't very well be betrayal if it wasn't gotten across; 
>it's for sure not "pure and simple".

It's still betrayal whether she convinces him of it or not and it is 
pure and simple.  Someone tells you something in confidence and you repeat 
it to someone else.  That's betrayal no matter HOW you personally think about 
it.  Just because HE doesn't think it's betrayal doesn't mean it isn't and
that she should accept HIS version of the situation.

>"ANYTHING you accept from someone in confidence is your responsibility to
>protect."

>If it is made clear that it is in confidence; if not, you have to use you
>own best judgement...

You're looking for any grey area you can find in the guy's defense.  I doubt 
very much that the author of the base note was upset because her boyfriend 
told his friend how much she paid for a car or something like that.  Remember 
her problem is that he tells his buddy "everything".  I think we can assume 
that that includes a few things that are very obviously private and that's
what we are dealing with.  

A relationship is dynamic rather than static and anyone who feels no need to 
negotiate or renegotiate has no real interest in protecting or enhancing the 
relationship.  You have to be flexible and you have to be open to travel this 
road with another person.  

Maybe the author's real problem is her SO's seeming unwillingness to continue 
to negotiate.  Maybe he thinks that since 2 years have passed they have already
"ironed everything out" and nothing further is needed.  That would explain why 
the renegotiation she wants is met with deaf ears.

If he looses her because of his own ignorance about people he will learn.  But 
she wants him to learn now while there's still time for them.  The best thing
she can do for the both of them is to state her problem clearly and the 
reasons she feels the way she does, without blame, and to impress upon him
that her concerns are as serious as any of his.  She doesn't need his "agree-
ment" for this to take effect because this is a personal limit she is stating 
and it makes no difference who the "he" is.  Once she does this, whether he 
likes it or not, the ball is in his court to prove himself a concerned and 
caring SO or a selfish, immature boy who wants his women only the way he wants 
them and who refuses to make any concessions no matter what.

I'd say that's a valuable piece of info she should have on this guy - should
have had it a lot sooner.  It's going to be hard after two years to cut her
losses if she finds out he doesn't care about her concerns but it's going to
be harder after three years and in the interim she's either going to get very
well known to her SO's buddy or she's going to be very guarded and antsy 
around her SO.  Probably both.

Other people will offer us the whole gamut of behaviors in our lifetimes and 
all we can do is accept or reject the behaviors, not try and straighten out 
everyone who comes in contact with us.  So I still say the author should stop 
flogging herself over another person's behavior and put the burden of respon-
sibility where it belongs - on him to prove that he can be what she needs and 
wants or he cannot.

Just as an aside I'd say the guy's got an ego problem and is in silent compe-
tition with his buddy.  Telling him everything let's his buddy know that he's
gotten thisclose to this woman - a mark of maleness to some men.  I'd wager
that his blabbering is more mere braggadocio than close confidences between two
good friends.  Think about how SHE comes to know about THEIR conversations!
    

Hmmm...  You make a *lot* of assumptions...  just how well do you *know*
what's going on?

"It's still betrayal whether she convinces him of it or not and it is 
pure and simple. "

Give it a rest...

"You're looking for any grey area you can find in the guy's defense."

No, I'm not, I'm saying you assume too much...

Maybe he *does* need to be hit over the head with a baseball bat, but he doesn't
need to be condemned... 

"You have to be flexible..."

I can agree with that...

"Maybe the author's real problem is her SO's seeming unwillingness to continue 
to negotiate. "

Sounds more like ignorance, then unwillingness...

I'm not disagreeing with what her course of action should be; I'm disagreeing
with your condemnation of him.

"Just as an aside I'd say the guy's got an ego problem and is in silent compe-
tition with his buddy."

There are *many* other possiblilities.  What gives you the right to assume
this?

Jim.

>Give it a rest...

Never!  :-)

>Sounds more like ignorance, then unwillingness...

She's already explained her problem to him don't forget.  On what do you 
base YOUR assumption of his ignorance?

There are *many* other possiblilities.  What gives you the right to assume
this?

Please list some.

And what do you mean by what "right" I have to make an assumption?   I have
the same right to assume he's unwilling to listen that you do to assume he
may be ignorant.  We have the "right" to log into this notesfile and respond
to a base note - that's all.  Sure I've made some assumptions and so have
you and so has everyone who's responded.  We don't know absolutely everything
about their relationship or this particular problem so we assume some things
and base some things on our own experiences.  I did it, you did it and every-
one else did it too.  The first assumption we made, (you, me and everyone who
read it probably), is that we know what she means by "everything".  The second 
assumption we made is that the behavior continued after she complained about
it.  She didn't say it did, she just said she "wasn't getting across" or some-
thing like that.  We don't actually know that he ever did it again, do we?  No,
we assumed it.  Maybe you want to cross examine her and really get ALL the 
facts before you respond to this topic but I don't.  I think of notes more as 
an informal chat.  I think if I make an incorrect assumption she'll let us 
know it.

And since she has been tolerating this for 2 years.  I think it's fair to also
assume that she has already given this man the benefit of the doubt on more 
than one occasion and she's writing the base note in frustration.

And in your entry #13, you state the following:

>Any person in a relationship who cannot discuss that relationship with anyone
>else have [sic] just *doubled* the chances of the relationship failing.  You 
>*need* to be able to talk things out...

...in which you make the assumption that these two may be having trouble "dis-
cussing that relationship" where in reality they may not at all - just trouble 
discussing this one particular issue.

So assumptions abound.  Don't just attack me because you don't like mine -
your own may be no better.  And I AM just assuming that "give it a rest" is
an attack.  :-)
    

RE: .16

"On what do you base YOUR assumption [sic] of his ignorance? "

I have not assumed his ignorance.  I am assuming it is possible that he is
ignorant of the true situation.

I base this on my *limited* knowledge of the lack of communication ability
of fair portion of females, and density of a fair number of males.

"Please list some."

He may not, as you have assumed, have an ego problem.  He may be soo dense,
he doesn't understand the problem.  She may not have communicated the problem
other then in oblique hints or tantrums.  He may have a habit, or addiction
of talking to his friend.  He may not have told his friend as much as she
thinks he has. Etc, Etc, Etc...

"I have the same right to assume he's unwilling to listen that you do to assume
he may be ignorant. "

The difference is right in the above sentenance.  You assume he *is* unwilling,
I assume he *may* be ignorant.

"...in which you make the assumption that these two may be having trouble "dis-
cussing that relationship""

I did not make that assumption; I have stating a general belief as a reason
why it is a good idea to have someone else to be able to talk to.

Jim.

>I am assuming it is possible that he is ignorant of the true situation.

We all know it's POSSIBLE but after two years and some conversations
it's just not likely so I didn't waste time exploring an unlikely avenue.

>I base this on my *limited* knowledge of the lack of communication ability
>of fair portion of females, and density of a fair number of males.

Wow.  Where do you get THAT assumption?  Sounds more like stereotyping to
me and saying *limited* doesn't let you off the hook.  You are saying he
may be ignorant of the situation because you think a fair portion of
females lack communication abililty and a fair number of males are
dense.  Wow.

>She may not have communicated the problem other then [sic] in oblique hints 
>or tantrums.  

I quote from the base note:

>I have tried to talk to him about how that makes me feel...

I simply didn't doubt her but since you did let's ask her.

LB, does your talking to him consist of oblique hints or tantrums?  Is he
generally "dense" when you talk to him about other things?  Do you lack
communication ability like "a fair portion of females" do?

>He may not have told his friend as much as she thinks he has. 

Again, I didn't doubt her ability to assess her situation but since you did
let's ask her.

LB, are you SURE he's telling his friend "everything"?  No really, now,
how do you know?  Are you SURE you really haven't blown this all out of pro-
portion?  These questions make ME gag!

>You assume he *is* unwilling,

Yes, because I believe that she assessed the situation correctly and knows
how to talk to her boyfriend who is probably of at least average intelligence.

>I assume he *may* be ignorant.

Based on your image of a stereotypical beat-around-the-bush female trying for 
two years to communicate with a stereotypical dense male, I can understand why.

>I have stating a general belief as a reason why it is a good idea to have 
>someone else to be able to talk to.

Writing the base note kind of implies that she already knows the value of 
having someone else to talk to, yes?  I guess I gave YOU the benefit of the
doubt there in assuming that you weren't just being redundant.

So let's chill out and wait to see from LB just how far off base we all are 
before we continue on in our erroneous assumptions about her situation.
    

    Zzzzzzz...

    I am sorry it took me this long to reply back to this note.  I had
    no idea what was going on until this moment.  You have asked me
    a few questions and now I will answer them.
    
    >LB, does your talking to him consist of oblique hints or tantrums?
    >Is he generally "dense" when you talk to him about other things?
    >Do you lack communication ability like "a fair portion of females"
    >do?
                                                    
    When I speak to him about this I don't throw a tantrum or yell or
    violent in anyway.  He feels that there is nothing wrong with
    sharing these intimate secrets with this buddy.
    
    He IS "dense" about other things, ie; I'll ask him to do put the
    toilet seat down and he will NOT do it just to piss me off.  Now
    I have a little kitty and I ask him to put the whole lid down and
    still is "dense" to what I am saying.  I thought he might do it
    for the kitty if not for me.
    
    >LB, are you SURE he's telling his friend "everything"? No really,
    >now, how do you know?  Are you SURE you really haven't blown this
    >all out of proportion?  These question make ME gag!
                                              
    I am sure he is telling him everything.  After 2 years...I know.
    It is so obvious.  Sometimes when the 3 of us are together he will
    say something and I can't beleive he said it!  We have ALOT of mutual
    friends and I can tell that they know a few things about me too
    (from his buddy) because they will joke or say "ya SO said this
    or that..."  I know. 
    
    
    When I talk to him about this he just brushes is off as joke and
    says he doesn't think he is betraying me by telling is buddy these
    things.  I says he is, and well, yes a fight breaks out.  I'd rather
    have peace in the relationship then fight.  I am trying other tatics
    to deal with this but nothing changes.  
    
    I appreciate your interest in my problem and I have really benefited 
    from all the replys but I don't think this is something to fight
    about.
    
    lb 

>He feels that there is nothing wrong with sharing these intimate secrets 
>with this buddy.
 
The real issue is that he feels that only what HE feels counts and you have 
a tendency to agree with him.  This is your real problem.  

As long as you feel that he is more important than you, that his words carry
more weight than your feelings, you will never have any control over how
he or any other guy for that matter treats you.  You state how you feel, he 
disagrees, a fight ensues and you back down because you'd rather have peace.  
How many times have you repeated this same ineffective scenario?

If fear of losing him has crippled your ability to demand to be treated like
an adult then nothing anyone can tell you will help you.  If he balks at your
demands to be treated fairly and threatens to leave you then you are letting
him blackmail you into accepting his cheap behavior.

You want everything nice-nice with this guy but we just don't have that kind 
of control over other people!  He and his behavior are a package deal and if 
you ALLOW him to treat you like a child and go about his merry way betraying 
your trust and ignoring your complaints about it then no amount of asking or 
pleading is going to make a difference.  Your actions speak volumes louder
than your words.  He must look skyward and sigh heavily every time you want
to talk about it again.  That's because he knows your words are empty and
the conversation is pointless.

Maybe it would help to realize that not only would he NOT get away with this 
with every woman he dated, but that he also KNOWS he wouldn't!  Only women 
like you who agree with his "I'm the boss and what I say goes" attitude are 
acceptable SOs to him.  You have to understand the very important part YOU are 
playing in this game and that 50% of the reason he does this is because of YOU
and your underlying feeling that he is more important than you.

Who's his favorite sex goddess?  Every hetero guy's got one.  If he had a 
chance to date her do you think she would put up with this behavior?  Do
you think he'd try to jolly her into accepting it or argue with her if she
complained?  Or do you think he might change his ways but fast?  You are NO
LESS a human being and deserve NO LESS respect but you are not just going to
get it automatically.  You've got to first believe it and then insist on it.

If you want to know what to do you need to know what you want.  To know what
you really want, ask yourself these questions.

"Do I REALLY want the behavior to stop?  EVEN if it means the relationship
might stop?"

This will tell you everything you need to know about whether your self-
respect is more important than a guy.  For two years this guy has won out
over your self-respect but self-respect doesn't just go away as you are now
finding out.  Your need to be treated like an adult is surfacing, hense the
base note.  Once you decide which is more important to you then you'll know 
what you need to do.

Hate the choice?  Blame your SO.  He's forcing you to make it.
    

    Thank you CSSE::CICCOLINI.
    
    Action will be taken tonight!
    
    I am sick and tired of his attitude and what it is doing to me.
    
    I have asked myself those questions and the answer I got was I WANT
    IT STOPPED - NOW!                  
    
    lb

    I echo Sandy's comments (CICCOLINI), but have one thing to add:
    
    In one note you wrote, you implied that it wasn't worth fighting
    over.  While you have changed your mind (happily), you must keep
    in mind that the worst aspect of this behavior in this case is _not_
    that he's blabbering about private matters with others, but that
    he has shown no respect for _your_ feelings about it.  You have
    indicated that it really bothers you, and his reaction seems to
    be "so?  You're wrong, and I'm going to do what _I_ want no matter
    _how_ it maes you feel."
    
    The first guy I ever lived with was like that.  He didn't _act_
    callous about it, and it took me a while before I started to really
    object when he did the nitty little things that _really_ bothered
    me EVEN THOUGH HE KNEW how much they bothered me.
    
    We seemed to others to be fighting all the time, but we were struggling
    over the very issue that eventually broke us up: he had no respect
    for me, my feelings, and my opinions.  Nowadays, that has changed
    entirely -- I have won his respect and no longer look at him as though
    he were infallible.  We debate every now and then about trying again
    because the big problem we had has now been solved.  Neither of
    us wants to try until we are absolutely certain that the bad habits
    won't come back.  I cherish my strength and freedom, and he does
    not want a slave.
    
    The habits are hard to break, but it is possible that they _can_
    be changed without forcing the end of your relationship.  YOU must
    remember that being without him is certainly no worse than being
    his slave.
    
    In Sisterhood, 
    
    Lee
    
    

    
    re: .0
    
    At the writing of this reply, I haven't even made it through half
    the note and feel I have to respond.  If I repeat anything said
    by others, I apologize.
    
    Don't make the same mistake I've made.  If you love him, give him
    some space:  
    
    My husband has an extremely difficult time talking with people, 
    especially me, about himself and/or his feelings.  It could be that 
    this man you are seeing has that same difficulty.  Give him some time,
    some space.  This "best friend" may be the one person he can confide
    in about his feelings for you.  Maybe he isn't ready to share that with
    you yet.
    
    It could be, too, that this "best friend" acts as a sounding board
    for him.  When I have something pressing to discuss with my husband,
    I usually bounce it off my "best friend" (my cousin) as a means
    of hearing myself and hearing how what I am saying could/would be
    taken by another person.
    
    He works out his problems with his buddies?  Well, maybe he doesn't
    know how to approach you.  Maybe he doesn't know how to ask your
    advice.  Or, maybe he's afraid you'll think his problem too little
    or too stupid.  Don't start shutting him out of how you feel either.
    Trust me, the only one that will hurt is you.

    I suggest YOU: Talk to him.  Ask questions.  Ask how his day was; 
    how he feels; if there is anything on his mind he'd like to talk about.
    Draw him out.  Above all, TRY to be patient.
       
    If you can't communicate, love may not hold it together.  I dated and
    got engaged to my husband the first time for 1 1/2 yrs.; dated for the
    next 2 yrs; then 2 yrs. after that we got engaged for the second time 
    and are now married almost 2 yrs.  Communication is the key!
    
    Good Luck
    
    BG

    I agree with Lee and Sandy; don't let yourself get kicked around. You
    should be getting basic human dignity. 
    
    When you talk to him, be clear an plain -- don't mince words. Also,
    remember that you shouldn't make threats, you should make promises. If
    you say, "If you do X, I will do Y" you have to be fully prepared to
    back up your actions, or you're just going to let yourself in for being
    kicked around some more. Lastly, beware of ultimatums. There is a
    natural human tendency to balk at ultimatums (unless, of course, you're
    looking for provocation). 
    
    	Jon

RE: .19

...

Agreed, the best idea is not to assume without more information...  Don't
forget that there is always more then one side to a story.

...

Again, I am stating *possiblities* not definites.  Again, I am assuming
*possibilities*, while you are assuming one person is at fault.  I am a firm
believer in Murphy's Law.

"Writing the base note kind of implies that she already knows the value of
having someone else to talk to, yes?  I guess I gave YOU the benefit of the
doubt there in assuming that you weren't just being redundant."

Not necessarily.  Double Standards do exist.  Obviously the two 'talking to
someone else''s are not the same, or she would not be here... 

RE: .21

If I may...

"When I talk to him about this he just brushes is off as joke and says he
doesn't think he is betraying me by telling is buddy these things.  I says he
is, and well, yes a fight breaks out."

Doesn't sound like successfull communication to me...

RE: .22

"-< EVERY head game takes TWO players! >-"

It only takes one...  Even when one refuses to 'play'.

Other then that, if it is as you say, then I would have to agree with .22. If it
isn't...  Well changes are comin... 

Jim.

    What are you doing here, Jim!  You're on vacation!  Get away from
    that keyboard!
    
    We now return you to our regularly scheduled noting... :-)
    
    DFW

    
    re: .27
    
    Ah, but every mind game DOES take two players.  Even if one isn't
    playing?  If the person who is supposedly NOT playing is allowing
    the person who IS to have space in their head, the other person
    is playing, too.  In other words, if you allow yourself to think
    about the mind game the other person started, you are playing the
    game.