Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Someone I really care about was evaluating their life the other
    day and trying to make some sense about the current events.  
    
    In thinking things over she said "All my life, I only had one man
    my husband."
    
    That is nice...but I had this sense if that is all there is to life
    no wonder the woman is having difficulty understanding what her
    life was all about.
    
    

    Because I was brought up in a fundamentalist household, I have a
    tendency to be most judgemental of myself and, try as I might to
    be broad-minded and liberal, I often fall far short of my goal *not*
    to make judgements of others actions.  
    
    I am slowly coming to the belief that the ultimate sin very well
    may be this:  That we--each of us individually--think we are 
    the center of the universe.   
    
    
    Man--much more often than woman--has believed himself equal to the
    gods.  That is the basis of most myths and traditions.  

    
    M

    Re .2, I tend to agree, because thinking we are the center of the
    universe leads to neglect of, and cruelty to other life forms. 
    It can be seen in the "I've got mine, screw you" attitude of many
    people today who because *they* make over $40K a year don't think
    it's their problem that others are homeless, or because *they* are
    heterosexual and in a monogamous relationship don't care that others
    are dying of Aides (for a couple of examples).
    
    I've thought before that the worst sin is wanting something so badly
    that we are willing to hurt somebody else in order to get it.  That
    ties in with greed and with thinking that the world revolves around
    ourselves.
    
    I have never been able to understand arbitrary judgements such as
    "She committed adultery.  There's no excuse for it therefore she
    has committed a sin.", etc.  I don't think life is that simple.
     I think we owe each other understanding and compassion and that
    before we decide what is or isn't a sin that we should forget about
    quoting the bible, and think who exactly was hurt by a particular
    action, and why that action actually came about.  We should be more
    willing to understand each other and less willing to self-righteously
    condemn.
    
    We all have to share this world, and it would be nice if we could
    share it in harmony.  In order to accomplish this, it would help
    if we could all be open minded enough to try to understand why others
    sometimes act differently than we think we would act ourselves.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    	I think the untimate sin is "contempt of life", that you have
    the opportunity to live and share and appreciate - and you just
    "blow it off".
    
    	Goodness therefore is manefested in the embrace of life, and
    one's *taking* the opportunity to live, share and appreciate.
    
    	Joe Jas

         .4....Hmmmm, I liked that!
         
         For me...the greatest "sin" is not loving yourself.
         I think if we truly love ourselves, then it is damnably
         hard to inflict pain on others.
         
         Melinda

    Major Sin =
    
    Lying to a close loved one about something important
    
    Not fulfilling potential
    
    Apathy
    
    

Actually, there is no such thing as 'sin'. 

The concept of sin was invented by religion, to intimidate the
multitudes into accepting and following religious doctrines. 

The concept implies judgment on one person's part, of another. Since
no person's judgment can possibly be objective, it cannot be
absolute, either. It follows that what is 'sin' to you, may be
'non-sin' to me. Conclusion: the concept of 'sin' is meaningless. 

That said, there **are** good deeds and bad deeds, based on what the
accepted community standards and laws are. A bad deed, however, is
not a sin, but either an anti-social act (if it violates a standard)
or a crime (if it violates a law). 

-- Ron

    
    Sin - The act of breaking a religious or moral law.
    
    I do believe in goodness/badness, however, the concept of sin
    implies a subservient dereliction of self, a pertinacious desire
    to hold oneself accountable to a higher authority ... one that 
    has never been proven to exist.
    

     Re: .0

          There is only one sin:  causing hurt.

			       Brian Hetrick

I think that so many of our Western-culture concepts of sin come from
(for a majority of us) our Judeo-Christian heritages and belief systems.

Certainly, many people define sin as a breaking of one - or more - of
the Ten Commandments.

So in the case of adultery, as Lorna mentioned, by defintion this act
is a "sin".

Yet, conveniently, in officially-sanctioned wars, in self-defense, or
state-sanctioned executions, killing is not a sin.

There appears to be a hierarchy, in most people's minds, of some sins
being "worse" than others. I think that most of us have somehow come
to believe that not observing the Sabbath Day and keeping it holy,
or coveting one's neighbor's wife are "lesser" sins than, say, committing
adultery.

Some religious groups seem to extrapolate the concept of sin to be of
the type: "If it's fun and/or feels good, it's wrong, since we were put
on this Earth to suffer." When I was a teenager, there was a song by
Caterina Valente entitled, "This Must Be Wrong, Because It Feels So Right".
In some people's mindsets, this philosophy strongly continues to exist.

I think an important question is: Are there any such things as "universal"
sins? That is, without religion(s) (or localized societal rules) to tell us 
that certain actions are right or wrong, encouraged or proscribed, permitted
or banned, would there be sin? Should what is considered sin change with
the passage of time - a "sin" today, a "no-sin" tomorrow (or the next mil-
lenia)?

I'm going to bring up a highly-charged issue for an example: incest. However,
I want to make it clear that I'm talking about incest (*not* abuse) between 
consenting adults, where pregnancy cannot occur, and can be sibling, mother/son,
father/daughter, or any other combination. 

Clearly, in our society, this goes beyond sin. It becomes (as the Bible would
describe it) an Abomination.

Yet, in ancient Egypt, among royalty - and in some other cultures today -
it was/is not considered "sinful".

What makes it "sinful" (not-legal) to marry your first cousin in New York,
but "un-sinful" (legal) in Massachusetts?  

Why, 25 years ago, was it sinful for some people to eat meat on Friday in
Boston, but not sinful for those of the same religion in Des Moines?

  Alan                                                                 

	Re: .10

	>There is only one sin:  causing hurt.

	While I don't quite agree that causing hurt is the only sin, I
    think if it is to be considered a sin, it needs to be qualified.
    Causing hurt intentionally or maliciously might be considered a
    sin.  But there are times when you can hurt someone, even though
    you don't want to, because it's for the best.  In time, the hurt
    will go away, but I don't believe that the person who has caused
    the hurt should be considered 'a sinner'.

    	I think .4 is right on the money!

    	Amy

    re .10 
    
    Causing hurt is certainly not a good thing, yet is sometimes
    unavoidable, if the choice has gotten down to hurting one person more
    than another, or causing a small hurt rather than a large one. Perhaps
    minimizing hurt should be the goal? 
    
    I think that the sanctity of one's body is a basic right -- and
    trespassing on that one is the ultimate in wrong.  If you don't have
    rights to your own body, what rights do you really have?  Such wrongs
    that fall under this umbrella would be murder, rape, torture,
    kidnaping, and physical abuse, to name a few. 
    
    Elizabeth

In my opinion, the worst sin is being corrupted to the point where you cannot
tell the difference between good and evil, or even worse corrupting another in
that fashion.  Once this has happened it is virtually impossible to recover
from.

The bible agrees with me...  (for those who care...)

Because of this I feel that it is of the utmost importance that children be
taught right and wrong, and the worst crimes are child abuse and the worst
sinners are the parents of dysfunctional families.  Some of these children will
never recover to really experience and know what is right and wrong.

The other horrible thing that comes to mind is forcing virtues, such as making
charity manditory, which takes away any of the benifits of being charitable.
I believe that it's a much worse sin then self centeredness.

There are supposedly three classes of sins: sins against yourself, sins against
others, and sins against God.  I would classify self centeredness and the
failure to take advantage of life to be sins against yourself.  Corruption and
moral force are sins against others.  Sins against God... I don't feel like
getting into a rathole.  I would definitely say that sins against others are
worse then sins against yourself because they affact others.  Sins against
yourself... they harm you, but they are not imposed against anyone else. 

Lastly... in the eyes of God, all sins are alike... a white lie is the same as
being a prostitute.  The reason for this is that God's standard is perfection
and all us humans are so far from perfect that the differences between us are
negligable.  Kind of a humbling thought, isn't it?  And justice demands that all
sin be punished, and there is not one of us who does not deserve death.
Fortunately, God's charity and mercy prevails over justice and death.

For those who are allergic to the term "sin"...  I don't see much difference
between what you describe, and sin...  I'll just accept that that you don't
like the term without getting into the rathole of trying to make your justify
your aversion.

good & bad, virtue & vice, good & evil, sin & virtue... they're all the same...

"The concept implies judgment on one person's part, of another. Since no
person's judgment can possibly be objective, it cannot be absolute, either. It
follows that what is 'sin' to you, may be 'non-sin' to me. Conclusion: the
concept of 'sin' is meaningless."

Does not compute.  It sounds like you are saying that anything that is not
objective and absolute is meaningless (CIP sin)...  Doesn't make sense to me...
There are lots of subjective and relative concepts which are far from
"meaningless".

"A bad deed, however, is not a sin, but either an anti-social act (if it
violates a standard) or a crime (if it violates a law)."

I don't see any difference.

"the concept of sin implies a subservient dereliction of self, a pertinacious
desire to hold oneself accountable to a higher authority ... one that has never
been proven to exist."

Interesting... believing in sin means I'm a subservient derelict because I
believe in a God you don't believe exists, eh?

Well...  I would say that believing in God does not make me subservient, because
God gave us free will, and we can do as we choose.  Believing in God is not a
dereliction of self because God is not an external to me, God is a part of me.
After all, our selves were made in the image of God.  

Even if you do not believe in God, you can still sin against yourself, and
against your moral prinbciples against others. 

"There is only one sin:  causing hurt."

I can't quite agree with that...  There is a lot of hurt out there which is
unintentional.  A sin requires both intent, and action.

'does what is sin, change?'

Yes, to a certain amount, if you believe in following the spirit of the Law,
rather then the letter of the law.  The spirit behind the observation of the law
may change even though the letter of the law remains the same.  A sin requires
intent... sometimes intent of disrespect...  CIP, not eating meat on Friday used
to have a large amount of meaning to people.  For most people the meaning has
been lost, and it is pointless to continue the tradition for those people who
have lost the tradition. 

Was it ever a "sin"...  For some people, yes because it showed disrespect (I
won't get into why), for others no because it meant nothing to them.

This is a good example of a subjective sin.

Many of the "sins" in the bible were codified for our own good, especially a lot
of the dietary and sanitation practices.  How do you get people to follow them
even if they are for their own good, since they do not understand them?  Tie
them in with religion. 

There is a chapter in Acts about eating practices which goes through a long
story about how Christians (esp gentiles) were not required to keep all of the
kosher dietary laws.  It was a sin to add these burdens onto the gentiles. Yet,
it was a sin for the gentiles in not keeping kosher, to cause problems with
those who did keep the dietary laws. 

The ramifications are quite interesting...

Jim.

    Re .14 (Jim)
    
    >Because of this I feel that it is of the utmost importance that
    >children be taught right and wrong, and the worst crimes are child
    >abuse and the worst sinners are the parents of dysfunctional families.
    >Some of these children will never recover to really experience and know
    >what is right and wrong. 
    
    I agree that child abuse is a major wrong, in that it prevents the
    child from growing up the way (s)he should.  But, consider, that
    most abusive parents were themselves victims of child abuse from
    their parents, who in turn were abused by their parents, and so
    on.  Obviously, this ties in with your statement "...never recover
    to really experience and know what is right and wrong.", but just
    where should the blame be placed?  Who is the first cause of these
    lines of dysfunctional families?  Or, is there some necessity to
    recover before having children to pass this disease on to?  What
    if the parent is too far into denial to know (s)he has anything
    wrong that warrants recovery?
    
    I disagree that forcing charity is horrible, since the beneficiary
    still receives the benefit of the forced charity, but I agree that
    it is wrong to take away the benefits of being charitable.
    
    How about the other side of this note?  What is goodness?  Perhaps
    the first part of the prayer of St. Francis?
    
    (from memory, undoubtedly misquoted and out of order)
    Make me a channel of your peace,
    Where there is hatred, let me sow love,
    Where there is doubt, faith,
    Where there is sorrow, joy,
    ...
    
    This can be applied secularly as well as religiously, and I use
    it, although I don't subscribe to that particular religion.
    
    Elizabeth
    
    Elizabeth

      Sin was created so we'd know what was fun and what isn't - my
      apologies to Carla and Kathy for more poetry, I can't help it it's
      spring. ;*} liesl

		Forbidden fruit a flavor has
		That lawful orchards mocks;
		How luscious lies the pea within
		The pod that Duty locks!		Emily Dickinson

    There is no such thing as sin.  It is all realitive.  If one believes
    that his actions are good then they are good.  You may disagree
    with his decision of goodness but to him he is still good.  
    
    from a philosophical point of view....there is no evil there is
    only the lack of good....
    
    Bill

    Irreverence (and irrelevance) alert. . .I'm with Liesl tonight
    (springtime silliness, and all that. . .)
    
    Torture of another human is sinful.  Specifically. . .
    
    . . .every time my mom forced me to "just try" eating some
    liver she was sinning.  I mean, the first time I can let go -
    maybe she really *did* think I'd like it, but after the first 
    wretched experience. . .  And the Lord (or whomever) proved 
    instantly that it was a sin for whenever I partook of the nasty
    stuff, He did forthwith deliver up my lunch unto the dinner table.
    
    Steve (o.k.  I'll go back in and hang out with Punxatawny Phil)
    

    I think the greatest sins are those which kill aliveness...
    
    Kind of a variation on .4... such things as...
    
    
    
    Manipulating a child to meet your own needs,
    
    Lying, when the lie is unnecessary and hurtful,
    
    Telling the "truth" in a hurtful way... when you know exactly what
    you are up to,
    
    Judging others in a negative or condemning way -- it doesn't grant
    them the grace of their humanity and the possibility of redemption,
    
    ...
    
    R.

    
    I've entered this quote before.... but it fits here.
    
    "There is no good.  There is no bad.  Thinking makes it so."
    					
    						- Shakespeare
    
    I believe you can substitute "sin" in the place of good or bad.
    
    
    Dwight

    	For me, a sin is doing something you *know* in your heart and soul
    to be wrong.  That is why it is possible for one person to see a sin in
    something, while another person may not see it the same way.  We're
    each of us different, with different experiences and backgrounds.  I
    agree with Ron, sin is a subjective thing.  However, *many* things
    touch us all in the same way (murder, for example) and I don't think
    there are too many who would say that that is not a sin.  While I tend
    to agree with Joe Jas in .4, IMHO it's just a bit too simplistic when
    talking about the issue at hand.


    	Similarly, Goodness is doing something which you *know* is right.
    Again, that's why an action taken by one person can seem good to them
    but not to others; each of us must decide in the silence of our hearts
    and souls what is "good" and "bad".  The intent behind an action is as
    important as the action itself.


    Brian

    1. being judgmental of others with no results or actions to base
       judgment on.
    
    2. defileing the environment.
    
    3. being self centered and not caring about others.
    

    it seems to me/i think/ in my opinion/for what it's worth
    
    sin...?
    don't know if they are sins or not but;
  	unprecipitated murder, cheating, stealing, making bad laws that
    negatively affect sections of the population for one's own personal
    gain (or because one likes minding other peoples business)
    	are all very nasty things....
    
    goodness...?
    helping others "less fortunate" (<-- could be a rathole), working
    for a better/safer/healthier/cleaner environment
    	are both nice things to do
    
    

    I'm with Amy (.12). The succinct way I've heard it put is:
    
    	"Sin lies only in hurting another unnecessarily.
    	All else is pecadillo."
    
    --- jerry

                             
    
    
    SIN IS CANCER OF THE SOUL; LEPROSY OF THE HEART; DIPHTHERIA OF THE
    SPIRIT; THE GREATEST OF MALADIES; THE VILEST OF ALL DISEASES.
    
    SIN IS THE VICE THAT TAKES YOU FARTHER THAN YOU WANT TO GO, KEEPS
    YOU LONGER THAN YOU WANT TO STAY, AND COSTS YOU MORE THAN YOU WANT
    TO PAY.
    
    
                                   RAY

    I believe it's "cry with the saints." 
    
    	Jon

    RE: < Note 722.2 
                     -< only one link in a long chain... >-
>    I am slowly coming to the belief that the ultimate sin very well
>    may be this:  That we--each of us individually--think we are 
>    the center of the universe.   
    
    Normally, we don't pick on people for there beleifes, and mzPellings,
    so we won't do it here either.
    
    This thought is really great, but seems to be slightly short. Would
    it not be more accurate we were to say that the 'ultimate' sin is
    declaring our "Opinion of Life" is the only VALID approach, and
    therby place our 'humble self' at the center of the Universe ?
    
    (ie 'God' says it is so because it is written right there in THAT
    book !, etc ?)
    
>    Man--much more often than woman--has believed himself equal to the
>    gods.  That is the basis of most myths and traditions.  
    
    Hmm what does the "Goddess of All" think about this ? Again, if
    we consider the reverse, that is, when people place a gender identity
    on their "god"; aren't they in reality putting their gender at the
    epicenter of the universe ? Then by "gender identification" they
    become 'better' than others of the 'other' gender ?