Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    
    I myself would rather be feared and respected than liked.
    
    There are those whom I want to be liked by, however there
    aren't many in that category. 
    
    It seems to me that those who have more power have less need
    or desire to be liked (and I don't really have a lot of power 
    either).
    
    My boss has even less need to be liked...

    
    	I believe that this apparent need comes from a subconscious
    belief that was taught to us early in our lives. Lessons in negatively
    contexted motivational instructions, of the form "No one will like
    you if you do not *.*", convince us deeply of our other-directed need 
    for recognition and approval. ("*.*" can be anything from "wear your 
    uniform" to "hit a home run" to "eat your peas" to...)
    
    	This has been imparted on us as a motivational tool, a sort of 
    leveraging_to_get_us_to_do whatever, by our parents, schools and
    just about any other institution we've ever been involved with!
    Sometimes, this is very overt, other times it's a covert operation.
    
    	Society in general, up to "now" or whatever, has always supported
    this notion. People who do not conform, who do not "feel" their *need*
    to meet the approval of the collective body of the town, school
    or other organization become outcasts eventually. Concerns such as 
    "My, my - what will *they* say!?!" become paramount in our effort *to
    conform*. Everyone becomes completely other-directed with regard
    to how they feel about themselves. Hey, I know I am - Glad to be
    the first to admit it!
    
    	Reminds me of the story about the guy who "got the beating of
    his life" cause he spent money that he made working on his paper
    route on himself...You can bet he never did that again. Unfortunately,
    he was *never* able to buy anything for himself ever again! Nearing
    50 years of age, he still doesnt feel right spending money on himself.
    While this example illustrates the results of a violent application
    of negative motivation, it is known that all negative motivations,
    motivations through guilt and shame, have the same effect on people
    - and can last *forever* in you. BTW, "unraveling" it all is not a 
    trivial task. (Let's try that again!) BTW, "unraveling" it all is
    a very difficult task.
    
    	This sickness will take us down to our collective knees. It's
    as arbitrary a notion as specifying what colors are acceptable for
    people. It's real old hat.
    
    	Joe Jas 
                         

    Our own self esteem and the view which others have of us are in a
    dynamic upward/downward spiral.  Our self esteem, self confidence and
    self respect will affect the way that other people feel towards us: if
    we feel good about ourselves others will feel good about us. The
    interesting thing about this link is that when others feel good about
    us, we feel good about ourselves.  This is the societal feedback of
    self image.
    
    Of course the opposite picture is just as likely.  People who wallow
    in self pity soon lose friends which just gives the person something
    else for which to pity themselves.
    
    I believe that eventually, after riding the spiral either up or down,
    one can top/bottom out.  When this occurs, no matter what anyone else
    feels about ourselves, we are so much in touch with our own being that
    the opinion or approval of others has little influence on our lives.
    
    Most of the people I know are riding somewhere between top and bottom,
    going up and down with the barometer of public opinion.  The only
    aspect of this spiral over which they have control is that which concerns
    their self view.  Every person has the power to change this by changing
    their attitudes of mind.
    
    Once a person tops/bottoms out I think they can be refered to as
    their own person and neither seeks to validate themselves or their
    actions through approval from the masses.
    
    Kris

It is certainly worth examining where this need for approval comes
from.  I found it for myself to be unhealthy.  That the more I worry
about it, the more constrained and less naturally pleasing my behavior
is. 

We certainly seem to have a lot of conditioning around approval.  For
myself, I found the best way to get rid of it is to really see it as
it happens and understand it and it tends to drop away.

 

    
    	I disagree with the "if_we_feel_good_about_ourselves_others_will
    _feel_good_about_us" edict. It is an ideal, but not necessarily so. I'm
    sure there are numerous examples, some as innocous as "What mom might
    feel about you when she catches you wearing socks that dont match"...
    
   	 *You* might feel just fine about your two choices, but mom just might 
    say:                                                 
    
    	"I dont want you thinking it's OK to go out with socks on that dont
    match!!! You're a representative of this family and you shall have a
    responsibility to blah_blah_blah_bloopity_blopity_blabble_labble_labble" 
    
    	- which is about all a child trully hears anyway, that something
    is wrong with him/her, i.e. mom is not happy with me *irrespective* of 
    how I feel. SO, the child sez "I better learn right quick how to be
    just as miserable too, because that's the way things are supposed to
    be; socks MUST match, or it's cause for WWIII around here". A child
    cannot comprehend why Mother feels embarrassed from what someone
    else might think upon observing her child with unmatched socks!
    (I never could) The child learns very effectively, in time, how to do 
    this. 
                                       
    	Joe Jas
    

    Re: .1
    
    Bob,
    
    You mention that you would rather be feared and respected than liked.
    
    Is it not possible to be respected and liked at the same time? 
    As far as fear goes....what good does it do?  You may get some short
    term results but in the long run, what are the results?  IMHO, fear
    and intimidation are counter productive motivators. 
                                                      
                                                      
   Kris                                               
                                                      
    

    Just bringing up a point,  I don't mean anything by it.
    
    Hitler was not liked...He was feared and respected....
    
    Bill

       In many ways society (and we are social animals) has a need for
       conformity. It produces people who will blend in and go with the
       flow. When people don't, we have revolutions, remember the
       sixties? This disrupts society and produces the potential of
       collapse of the social structure. Those who are currently in
       power have a need to maintain the status quo so they 'enforce'
       the social rules. If you felt good without needing their approval
       you would become a threat, and threats must be dealt with. The
       primary tool for this exile. If you don't behave the way we
       dictate you must live apart and you will lose the social
       structure that you need to nuture and protect you. In other
       words, if we don't like you you're on your own. To use Joe's
       example, if your socks don't match mom doesn't want you anymore
       because you threaten the stability of her social structure.

       Even outcasts tend to group together and form their own society
       and their own rules. This way they still have the social need of
       'being liked' met though it has different parameters than the
       mainstream. liesl

    I sometimes need and want others approval.  However, I also need to approve
    of my own self.  So when my needs are in conflict with others, I
    have to consciously think of whose approval will matter to me the
    most.

    If I choose self-approval over "others" approval, I also choose
    the responsibility that goes along with dealing with that disapproval.
    That relieves me of any guilt I might feel about not acting in a
    manner which makes someone else more comfortable than myself.
    
    Frankly, I don't believe it is very realistic to think that one
    can live without some approval by others.  But it is possible to
    be more comfortable with disapproval if one is willing to be honest
    in why one is taking a different road, and willing to take full
    responsibility for the consequences.  It is unreasonable to believe
    that one can live as pleases without affecting others---so along
    with responsibility of choice goes my mother's admonition: "be kind".
        

    Re: .0
    
    >Does anyone have a clue as to how we can be our own person without
    >seeking the approval of others?
    
    I suspect people will always seek the approval of others at some
    level.  Given the example of the woman in the book, I'd say the
    thing is to avoid being so hurt by the withdrawal of approval that
    we go to desperate measures to get it back.  It has to be more
    important to do what we want than to have other people think well
    of us.  In other words, it helps to be selfish.  It also helps to
    be self-sufficient, perhaps even a loner.  If we don't *need* people
    so much, it doesn't matter so much what they think.  While it's
    nice to have other people think well of us, we can get along well
    enough on our own resources that their good opinion isn't vital.
    
    I know that nothing or no one is essential to my happiness; there's
    nothing or no one that I can't do without.  Since I'm also quite
    selfish, this makes it difficult to get me to do something I really
    don't want to do.  If I think the trouble of dealing with you is
    great enough, I'm willing to deal without you.  As Neil Young said,
    "It doesn't mean that much to me to mean that much to you."  Saying
    "goodbye" becomes an option for me far sooner than it does to most
    people, I suspect.  It's much easier when I'm angry or frustrated,
    of course, because those are very self-centered emotions.
    
    This is not to say that I can get along with nothing and no one,
    though I'm hermit-like enough that I can probably be content with
    less than the average person.  Nor do I cut people out of my life
    if they dare disagree with me.  If I sever a relationship, it has
    become more unrewarding than enjoyable.  Nor is there any reason
    to sever the ones that can simply atrophy by avoiding the other
    person.  This does mean that I'm less motivated to "patch things
    up" because I'm more willing to accept the alternative.
    
    It is, in fact, possible not to care about the approval of others.
    However, it requires a certain emotional distance to create that
    kind of untouchability or invulnerability.  It requires a measure
    of withdrawal.  As with most things in life, there's a trade-off.
    And unless you've started very young or have had some particularly
    compelling motivation, you'll find it hard to do.
    
    It could be argued that someone who was secure in their own self-worth
    would not care about approval and yet not be emotionally distant.
    I don't agree.  You can't care for someone without wanting their
    approval or acceptance.  You might not care as much as someone with
    low self-esteem, because you don't need it as much, but you still
    care.  Those whose opinions you don't care about are those who you
    don't care much about -- the disembodied and pervasive "they" or
    the people walking down the street.

RE:  .-1
    
>    It is, in fact, possible not to care about the approval of others.
>    However, it requires a certain emotional distance to create that
>    kind of untouchability or invulnerability.  It requires a measure
>    of withdrawal.  As with most things in life, there's a trade-off.

I feel this might be better stated as "My experience has been that it
is not possible to care about the approval of others without creating
emotional distances".

My personal expereince has been that is it possible although difficult
to not care about approval and to not have emotional distance.  I (and
I assume others) have a lot of conditioning around approval.  When I
can see this as it arises, it becomes clear to me that it stems from
the illusion of a permanent, unchanging, and separate self that must
be compared, judged, labelled, and cognized about and that it stems
from a basic insecurity around this separate self.  When that drops
away because it is clearly seen, it becomes clearer that there is no
need to compare, judge, want approval, or anything else.  Without all
this, it seems easier to me to just be and be with the the other
person at a very loving, accepting, and nonjudgemental level.   That
is my experience only, your mileage may vary! ;-) 


peace
john

    Re: .11
    
    >I feel this might be better stated as "My experience has been that
    >it is not possible to care about the approval of others without
    >creating emotional distances".
    
    Since my statement was derived more from analysis than experience,
    I wouldn't use your version.  I consider acceptance and approval
    to be very closely linked, since acceptance implies some measure
    of approval.  I find it hard to imagine caring for someone without
    placing a value on that person's opinion.  Nor can I imagine an
    emotional involvement that is free from vulnerability.  As I see
    it, the loss of untouchability is a direct consequence of becoming
    emotionally involved and the two are inseparable.

    I feel that it is more important to look out for your self, and
    not worry if you are accepted by others. Acceptance in society is
    a human need, but everyone is different.  You will be accepted by
    some and not accepted by some.............that is the way life is...
    Everyone gets accepted in one way or another....and the people that
    don't accept, you really dont need.....you look out for number one..and
    that is yourself.

    The key to having others accepting you is to accept yourself....
    
    Bill

    
    Bills right.
    
    Once you accept yourself its also easier to give.  Acceptance is
    a two way street.  People that can give freely are accepted.  
    
    My 2 Yen, john