Conference quark::human_relations-v1

     
     Did you tell your adoptive mom what you wrote here? Tell her that
    you love her. Hug her. Try and get her to understand how important
    it is to you. I bet she's thought of this situation for years, and
    knew someday you would NEED to know. Take care.
    

.0.

I've been doing some thinking along the same lines recently.  My Mom 
and I talked about it and she was very supportive.  I have a sister 
and 2 brother whos are also adopted and we've always said/felt that my 
Mom and Dad (adoptive) are our PARENTS, the people who sat up with us 
when we were sick, who drove us to school when we missed the bus and 
who love us no matter what happens, so I think with that always being 
the basis for our family, it really wasn't a *major* blow to either of 
them.

Since we talked I have not done anything about this, basically because 
I'm not sure how to go about it - do you have any suggestions?


Pat

    I've tried everything! I hugged her cried tears with her, told her
    I loved her, But she thinks "how can you do this to me and your
    dad? We love you" I've replied "Yes and I love you BUT it's something
    I feel like I need to do. But I hate like the dickens to have it
    hurt you.

    Tell her you're greedy, and you want more, more, more!  Another
    mother to have and hoard and gloat over.  More silly family
    stories to tell your grandchildren.  More past, more color, more
    everything.
    
    						Ann B.

    
    
    And on another note.  There's an excellent discussion in 
    MOSAIC::WOMANNOTES-V2, note number 276 on this topic.  You might
    consider looking there also.
    
    		Alison
    

    
    	When someone says "how can you do this to me!", in situations
    like this, it's really "I cant help myself from feeling this way".
    While someone always has the right to tell you how they feel, they
    sure could stand to do so without directing "Blame and Guilt" at you. 
    After all, "how someone feels about it" is that someone's choice, 
    something another person can neither control nor be responsible for.
    
    	You can tell her that you accept how she feels and *would like
    to* help her to feel differently about it. However, you also might
    say that you'll be damned if you're going to change what you want
    for yourself, in an effort to offload her own responsibility for
    how she feels. As we all know, just feeling how we do is the easiest;
    feeling differently about something or someone takes a conscious
    effort.
    	
    	People like to blame how they choose to feel on anything else
    that they can - the classic "taking offense" syndrome is the most
    obvious example. "You cant say, do, think, or be like that - it 
    offends me" What "does" what!?! Just who's doing the "doing" here?
    When there's no one else or no thing else to blame, the next thing
    you hear is "I cant help myself!" Trouble is, your_self is really
    the only one who actually *can* help, when it comes to choosing how
    you feel. Others can set a good example from their choices for you
    to see and follow, or they can lend a sympathetic ear until they
    find what the problem *really* is, but that's really the most that
    you, the one who is choosing to feel badly, can expect. To expect 
    someone else to change the things that they're doing for themselves 
    "so you can feel better" is a bit too much to ask, I believe.
    
    	There *are* some things, as a minimum, that a person wholly
    owns and does have full_responsibility for - all by themselves.  
    
    	Joe Jas	                                
    

   > < Note 646.4 by REGENT::BROOMHEAD "Don't panic -- yet." >
   >                      -< :-)  It might work.  :-) >-
   >Tell her you're greedy, and you want more, more, more!  Another
   > mother to have and hoard and gloat over.  More silly family
   > stories to tell your grandchildren.  More past, more color, more
   > everything.

    
    Hold on a minute! Before you get carried away with thinking of how
    wonderful it's going to be to find your biological parents and get
    involved with their wonderful life, take off your rose colored glasses
    for just one minute.
    
    I'm sorry to jump all over this but I *really* don't beleive in
    this scenario. Please consider what it is that you might find if
    your search is succesful. You might find a mother with another life
    another family and the painful scar of having had to give up her
    baby when she was young. Her current family may not even be privied
    to this information. How will you feel if you traced your mother
    to a drug infested housing project? Even if the the worse case scenario
    doesn't happen what would you do if she doesn't want to meet you,
    maybe she has tried long and hard to forget that painful time in
    her life when she had to give you up for adoption.
    
    Please think about what you might find and why you really have
    a need to find these "other" parents. Yes, it is hurting your mother
    to think you want to find your biological mother, she's likely
    been dreading the day you might start this issue. 
    
    There are plenty of happy endings to adoptee searches, there are
    many more that simply never end, and there are those that have painfull
    endings. You, of course, have to decide what you want to do. I just
    hope you consider *all* the parties involved. Especially yourself.
    
    All this from an adoptee who is not all that wanted by her adoptive
    parents so the last thing I'd want to find would be another set that didn't
    want me.
    
    Gail

    I can try to help you understand why your mother is saying things
    like "how can you do this to me" You see, your mom raised you from
    a baby, and considers you one of your own.  She feeds you, she provides
    for you, she supports you, she stood by you in all your milestones,
    she and your father consider you their own flesh and blood.  I
    understand for medical reasons and plain ol' curiousity, that you
    want to meat your biological parents, and it is instinctive and
    normal.  But you see, your adoptive parents are afraid they are
    going to loose the daughter that they loved and lived for for ?
    years, to your biological parents that you don't know. You have
    to put yourself in their shoes...do you know what I mean.  I know
    it is very painful..and that is one of the pitfalls of being adopted.
    Many adopted children instinctively want to go with their biological
    parents when they find out that they are not so bad after all. 
    Your Adoptive parents are very fearful of that...many adoptive parents
    are when they know that their child wants to find there real
    parents..it is only normal.  I say do search...but convince your
    parents you wont leave them...and stick to your word no matter how
    much you feel for your real parents (there is nothing wrong with
    keeping in touch)...because if you don't, the parents that loved
    you all their life will be devistated...I know I would if I adopted
    a child, and then they decided to leave me after I took care and
    provided for them all there life...I would be totally devistated.....
    can you see my point...anyway good luck and god bless,
    
                                        Lynne

    re .0
    
    I am an adopted child found by my biomom 10 years ago. 
    
    It was extemely complicating, especially since there were
    other siblings. Also it poisoned my relationship with my
    steparents.
    
    You may not like the people the newly found family turn out
    to be. 

    
>>    You may not like the people the newly found family turn out
>>    to be. 

	 but at least you would KNOW ...

RE: .0 and ramblings....
	 I must be completely out of touch or not understanding or
	 something, but the trust and the love you have is someone
	 should overcome ALL of these problems...  Its just seems that
	 so many people today are hung up on "do you REALLY love me"
	 or "do you REALLY consider me your mother/father"...can't
	 people take the love and the caring for granted and BELIEVE
	 in the person...are people sooooo selfish/insecure these days
	 that they can't allow their adoptive child to seek their real
	 parents..for whatever reason?  don't people realize there is
	 more than enough room in your heart for you to be able to
	 love/care for more people than just them?

	 If/when you found your parents...yes it might happen that
	 there is some kind of "bond"...just because you could find
	 you care for your biological parents, doesn't mean you won't
	 care just as much (if not more) for your adoptive parents...


	 Love is meant to share...not be selfish about...

	 <insert heavy sigh>...but then we ALL (yes...everyone of
	 us...) has our own insecurities... (and my list is FULL of
	 them...)


	 I hope you're able to explain to your mother...(adoptive)
	 that she is just as special and as important to your life as
	 finding your real family is....

	 i can't say I understand what you're going through, I'm not
	 adopted, although lots of times I feel like I am.....

	 

    RE:.0
     
              IMHO.....I would say, involve you "adoptive" mother and
    father in all of this.  Tell them of your fears and needs and reassure
    them of your Love and affection.  Try and convince them that you
    are going to need their Love and support since this journey of yours
    might turn out very badly.  I also say this for your well being
    because YOU might be the one that is very sorry and not secure in
    what you find.  Your parents could be the very "support" group that
    could help beyond measure.  Also try to understand their problems
    with this decision of yours.  Is it possible they know more about
    your paternal mother than they let on and are only trying to protect
    you?
    
    Dave

    I am for destroying all the records about adoptions.  There is
    no reason/benefit for the kid to know....  On the other hand, if the kid
    does find out, it is only human for the kid to go out to find his/her
    bio-mother/father.  My advise to the basenote author is:
    
    Go and find her out, but don't let your mom know (It is really
    the other side of not letting the kid know of the adoption).
    
    Well, I am not adopted (Maybe my mother just did a great job conceling
    the adoption :-) :-), so it is only appropriate to warn you to take
    my advise with a grain of salt.
    
    Eugene

    in re .12
    
    There is no justification what so ever in destroying all records
    of adoption. If people wnat, or need to find out about their
    biological family they should have that right. Destroying such
    records is destroying their past. I strongly recommend you read
    the previously referenced note on adoption to get some idea
    of how some adoptees feel about having no access to their
    past.
    
    and in general about this topic.
    
    My husband and I have one 'home grown' and 4 adopted kids. They
    are all 'our own' kids. So far none of the younger four have
    wished to search (the oldest is 16). However, I have encouraged
    them to think about searching if that is what they wish to do.
    We will always know that we are their 'real' parents, whatever
    'real' is. But if they want to know more about their birth family,
    or know their half siblings, we will be supportive. We definitely
    would have them go through the agency that placed them with us.
    That agency has protocols set up for managing reunions and will
    mediate any meetings. I would encourage an adopted child who
    wants to search to first contact the agency that placed you with
    your family. Second, if that does not produce the desired results,
    contact one of the adoptive search organizations that now exist
    in the US. (Names of several of them are mentioned in the note
    in womannotes.) I would discourage 'do it yourself' reunions
    unless there is no other possible choice...and even then I would
    encourage the searcher to do so with the support of a person who
    has been through the experience before (either as a social worker
    or one of the parties to the adoption.) The popular advice columnists
    like Ann Landers and Dear Abby have published letters from both
    birth moms and adoptees who found the reunion experience to be
    unhappy. So be careful.
    
    Bonnie

    re .13
    I guess my point is not letting the kid know that he/she is adopted.
    Most parents do not treat the adopted kids differently.  However,
    you have to look at it from the kid's point of view.  Some kids
    will start cleaning their rooms (without the parents' threat of
    grounding them, that is) when they learn that they are adopted.
    Of course, I do not mean destroying the adoption record.  On the
    contrary, the record should be kept in case the kid learns the adoption
    somehow.  In that case, it is up to the kids to decide whether to
    search or not to search.  "Destroying the adoption record" is just a 
    figurative way of emphasizing that adoption should be kept secret
    from the parents perspective.
    
    Now from the kid's perspective.  If you find out you are adopted,
    it is only human to want to find out your bio-parents.  If your
    parents object, do it but don't let them know about it.  It is just
    a matter of being thoughtful.  Unfortunately, in most instances,
    you will need your parents' help to find them.  Well, I am all for
    telling the parents that you love them and they are your only parents
    and etc.  But the fact that you have to assure your parents
    on this point creates a sense of distance (maybe, maybe not).  Well, 
    I know I am not making much sense here logically.  But the
    whole issue is a paradox.  I mean if the parents tell the kid that
    he/she is adopted, but they love him/her just the same, something
    will be different.  The same thing is true when the kid tells his/her
    parents that they are his/her true and only parents, but he/she
    is going to look for his/her bio-parents, something will be different
    too.  Well, maybe most people are not that sensitive.  On the other
    hand, many are.  Every instance is different.  However, in the case
    of .0, it is obvious that her mom is very sensitive on this....
    
    Finally, I do not see any point in have one's parents to meet with
    one's bio-parents.  
    
    Eugene
                        

    Eugene,
    
    I'm sorry but you are very wrong. It is just about the worst
    possible thing that a parent can do to lie to a child. Children
    will find out that they are adopted eventually. When they do
    they will suffer a terrible lack of trust in their parents.
    
    Before we adopted our kids I was talking with a friend who had
    adopted two children. She told me that the agency told her to
    take her daughter home (she was 3 days old) and tell her that
    she is adopted. She used adopted as an ajective when cuddling
    her first and second kids and made it part of their normal
    discussions when they were little. As a result the fact of
    their adoption is 'no big deal' and the kids felt completely
    accepted by their parents.
    
    We followed the same advice with our children. Not only did we
    discuss adoption openly with the kids, but each time we added
    another kid, or went to court to finalize an adoption, the whole
    family went along. My kids are quite well adjusted, and are bored
    by the whole subject as teenagers! :-)
    
    I am curious as to why you think that it would be advisable to
    hide from a child the fact that they are adopted. This was more
    common in the past when illigitimacy was considered a major
    disgrace. I am aware that some people also feel strongly about
    having a child of their ' own blood ' and hide an adoption for
    that reason.
    
    Bonnie
    
    p.s. it would be pretty hard for us to hide that our kids are adopted
    anyway....they are of a different race than my husband and I.
    
    

Bonnie,

     I read a few notes in the refered notesfile.  I think I am way out of 
my line in jumping into this discussion.  My point of hiding the fact of 
adoption is that many difficult issues can be avoided if the kid simply does
not know he/she is adopted.  I do not think illigitimacy or 'own blood' is
the issue in this day of age.  The point is subtler.  In many family
arguments, people, in anger, do (parents and kids) say things they do not 
mean....  In the case of adoptive childreb, this just adds more complications.... 
Maybe I am not making much sense here, but....  
    
     On the other hand, as you said, in many instances, this is
just not possible.  As a matter of fact, it is practically impossible since
even if the parents do not tell the kid, The kid will find it out through other
means, and there are just so many places to find out the fact.  Friends 
relatives, and etc.

     In any case, I believe in results, and your family is an overwhelming
proof of your way.

     Well, I hope my previous comments will be forgiven as "Youthful
indiscretion".
                                              
Eugene

    
    	RE: .16
    
    	Eugene,  One thing that really struck me about your replies
    	have been basing the whole family unit on lies! I can't see
    	how this would be healthy to any involved.
    
    	You state: Adoptive parents should hide (lie) about it.
    
    	then you state: if the kids do find out and search out
    	bio-parents they should hide it from the adoptive parents.
    
    	I'm sorry, I couldn't (nor wouldn't) want to grow up in that
    	sort of a family, just WHEN could you believe what another
    	was saying??  I've always looked at family as the one place
    	in my life where I know I could count on my parents to be
    	open and honest.
    
    	Just my opinion on the subject,
    
    	G_B

    All I have to say to the parent's of adoptive kids is to get some
    self-confidence.  So what if your son/daughter wants to findout
    his bloodline, he is not going to forget you or love you any less.
    After all you provided love and caring to them,  you brought them
    up and you molded their lives.  To give you up is to give up their
    own being.  Try and be sensitive to their feelings, after all, many
    people trace their roots even if they are not adopted.  
    
    Bill

    re .17
    
    I wouldn't call them lies.  I would call them being considerate 
    and thoughtful to other's feelings.  Life is not that simple....  
                      
    Consider the following hypothetical situation:
    Suppose a friend is dying because of a car accident.  You friend
    spent all his life writing a novel, and he has just finished his
    book two days ago.  Unfortunately, the book was burned during
    in the accident.  In his last moment, he asks you to promise
    him that you will get his book published.  Will you tell him that
    the book has been burned?  I would not.  Rather, I would promise
    him.  Strictly speaking this is not telling the truth, but I think
    it is the right thing to do.  
    
    I also remember reading a story in 
    the refered notesfile about a mother putting her new born baby for 
    adoption because she could not take care of the baby for various reasons.
    When she went home, she told the other kids that the baby died during
    birth.  Would you call that a lie?  I would not.  
    
    I guess you see my point....
    
    When I wrote my 
    previous notes, I feel that it is to the child's benefit that the 
    child does not know that he/she is adopted.  Let me give you a 
    hypothetical senario.  Suppose a couple goes to Alaska.  Stays there for 
    a year or two, adopts a child and comes back to MA.  No one
    will suspect that the child was adopted.  In such circumstance, 
    I personally feel that there is no reason to let the kid know of
    the adoption.  After reading the refered note string,
    I understand some adoptees' feeling about having no access to their
    past.  The ultimate way of eliminating this difficulty is not 
    letting the child know that he/she is adopted.  If I remember
    correctly, I have never in my life asked my mother whether I was 
    adopted or not.  I guess this is true with most people (maybe, maybe not). 
    As you can see, the "lie" will probably never be an issue.
    So in the above senario, what will be the point of telling the kid
    that he/she was adopted and make him/her feel bad about having no 
    access to their past (remember it is very difficult for a 5 year
    old to go to Alaska on his/her own)?
    
    Now what if the child finds out later in his/her life.  In this
    case, the parents should tell the above reasons to the child as
    to why he/she was not told.  Make the child understand that the 
    parents did what they did out of love rather than
    fear (as .18 suggested).  The parents should then offer all the
    information related to the adoption, and offer help to find the
    child's bio-parents if the child so wishes.  One thing the parents
    should not do is be secretive about it when the child found out
    about the adoption.  This will make the child feel real bad.
    
    There are a few advantages of doing things this way.  First, before
    the child learns about the adoption, he/she will not have the
    knowledge of the adoption.  This may sound like a tautology, but 
    by not letting the kid know about the adoption, the 
    parents allow the kid to be "homegrown" (Bonnie's word), and avoid
    many of the difficulties.  Second, even if the kid finds
    out later, it will be better than to have him/her find out earlier.
    What I mean is that the older the kid is the easier it will be for
    him/her to deal with the feelings about the adoption (I maybe wrong
    on this, but...).
    
    Well, as I said in the previous notes, every adoption is different,
    and I am not trying to generalize here.  Moreover, parents have
    their feelings too.  In some cases, the parents are just not
    comfortable about not telling the kid about the adoption, and in
    other cases, it is just plain impossible (like in Bonnie's case). 
         
    Well, I am a single "homegrown" male perhaps a yuppie :-) :-).  
    I guess I get interested in the topic 
    because I spent my childhood at my uncle's home.  My uncle's family
    treated me well and made it quite clear from the beginning that their
    home was my home, but it was not the same....  Maybe that is why
    I emphasize the feelings of the adoptees about the present rather
    than about the past....  Maybe I am out of my line here again.... 
    
    re .18,                     
    
    Please understand that my motivation for advocating the so called 
    "cover up" is purely for the benefit of the adoptees (as explained 
    above).  Maybe I am wrong.
    
    Oh well, I know this is a very sensitive issue to many people.
    If I had offended anyone, I sincerely apologize.  
    
    Eugene
                                                           

    Sorry I don't buy lies no matter what the reason.
    
    In the case of the book, I would avoid the question and if that
    was impossible to do so I would tell him the truth.  I know that
    he would never know if i did lie, but I would and if I couldn't
    keep a promise that I made to a dieing friend it would eat me up.
    
    The same for adoption.  Sure it's ok to avoid the question, but
    if I could not do so any longer, the truth will come out.  As 
    Einstein said "The Truth never changes, only ones knowledge of the
    Truth changes." 
    
    As for not telling him out of love......if you want to tell your
    kid it's ok to lie as long as you have a good reason then go for
    it.  I don't agree....
    
    Re:-.1
    

    In my case I am the author of this note: and my case history is
    as follows, I ws never told about my adoption, I found out when
    at the age of 12 and my baby book read "for an adopted child". I
    was furious that my parents had tried to cover it up. I can now
    forgive them. The reasons are many that I would like to search and
    all have been mentioned in the replies in this note.
      Eugene, I have p[ut my first born up for adoption, a healthy baby
    boy, I put him up from birth. Believe me it broke my heart, but
    I ws single, the father walked out on me when I was 6 months pregnant.
    I had no place to live if I had kept the baby except for welfare
    could provide for me. I figured that at the age of 20 and very immature
    it was best for my son to be raised by two healthy adults that could
    provide all the needs and wants that kids/adults have in life.
      I told the agency that his reords are to be opened. I have letters
    for each of his birthday waiting for him incase he does get to the
    agency. 
         Most people tell you that think of your child as being dead!!!!
    I can't and neither can anybody else that is on one end of the process
    or the other, that child is still living, growing, and thinking
    and you can't forget no matter what.
        Back to my case, I can't and have never forgotten that I have
    another mother in my life that gave me the best gift of all, she
    gave me life, not an abortion, not a life where we would be struggling
    but a chance at life she could have never given me, and that is
    the biggest gift of love any mother can give her child. and all
    I really would like to do when/if I met this other person is to
    say my thanxs and tell her I love her.
    
                                    Lisa

I believe that a lot of times when people lie or conceal the truth in order to
not hurt someone's feelings, that really their motivation is that they don't
want to have to deal with what they suppose will be to other person's feelings.

I'd rather have the Truth...  straight up, on the rocks.

"I have another mother in my life that gave me the best gift of all, she gave me
life, not an abortion, not a life where we would be struggling but a chance at
life she could have never given me, and that is the biggest gift of love any
mother can give her child."

I hate to bring up another possibility, but do you *know* this?  Isn't it
possible that your mother gave you up for selfish reasons?  Or that her family
forced her to give you up.  What if you find that giving you up destroyed her,
and you find an alcholic or drugee wreck?   It seems to me that you may be
assuming that your mother is like you, which may not be the case.

Jim. 

    JIM, 
       I have already assumed that I was illegimiate, What else could've
    happened. the agency has told me that my mom met my dad at college
    and there I was nine months later. So that tells me that I wasn't
    exactly planned in my mother's life. My biggest question was if
    she was at college in R.I. surely some of the girls there knew of
    a back street abornist. I kinda got the feeling that the family
    had forced her to give me up. And if/when I meet this woman or have
    contact withher I am expecting the worst. She doesn't want to meet
    with me for whatever the reasons. That way I can't be hurt, too
    much.
    

    To address Eugene's theory that one lie will save someone from hurt.
    I think you are really missing the BIG picture. Not telling a child
    about there adoption is like living a big lie. You think adoption
    doesn't come up? Maybe not in so many words, but what about normal
    growing up questions, starting with where did I come from <insert
    lie here>. Why don't I look like you Mom? <insert lie>. Help me
    fill out my medical history on this form <insert dangerous lies>.
    Do you see the point I'm trying to make. 
    
    Reread the responses that begin lies never make things better. Living
    in lies and deception is not going to help anyone. 
    
    I really feel for the noter that didn't find out until 12, that
    is a very hard trust to regain. 
    
    Gail

    As for medical I just don't/can't answer anything except I do know
    my grandmother had dibities aand if medical experts say is true
    and it skips a generation, then maybe  I am the one to get it.,
    or maybe one of my half siblings if I have any.
    And it's really not a metter of trust vs hurt feelings,but in love
    all is forgiven.
         Lisa
    

    Some things are not even worth discussing.
    
    It's extremely important to reveal a child's adoption from the
    time of the adoption, rather than lie or hide it.
    
    Anything else is just plain sick, and can be disasterous.
    
    Furthermore, anyone applying to adopt a child should have to promise
    that they will be honest with their child FROM DAY 1 about the fact that the
    child is adopted.
    
    /Eric

re .20
>    Sorry I don't buy lies no matter what the reason.

     Again I will not call them lies....  I would rather call it
     protecting one's children/friends who are vulnerable to the harsh reality.
     I am also curious to know what you think of the millions of parents who
     told their children that Santa Claus exists.      

>    In the case of the book, I would avoid the question and if that
>    was impossible to do so I would tell him the truth.  I know that
>    he would never know if I did lie, but I would and if I couldn't
>    keep a promise that I made to a dieing friend it would eat me up.
    
     I understand your reasons, and I fully respect that.  What I am going
     to say below is purely my opinions.  First of all, I would not even
     try to avoid the question.  In my opinion, the worst thing to do is 
     to put a friend in anxiety for even a single second of the last few 
     precious moments of his life.  Second, I would rather make a promise 
     that I cannot keep so that my friend can die in peace.  As you said, 
     this will "eat me up".  But I would rather have it eat ME up than have 
     the harsh fact eats my friend up in his last few moments of life.

     Furthermore, suppose the friend died an agonizing death.  After he 
     passed away, his wife came over and asked me whether my friend 
     died in peace.  What harm, what damage, what wrong will be done if 
     I answered yes even if it is not exactly true?  Is there no place 
     for a little compassion to shield our children our friends from the 
     truth of the slings and arrows and a thousand other natural shocks?
    
>    The same for adoption.  Sure it's ok to avoid the question, but
>    if I could not do so any longer, the truth will come out.  As 
>    Einstein said "The Truth never changes, only ones knowledge of the
>    Truth changes." 
    
     Again I would not advise anyone to avoid the question.  This will 
     needlessly raise doubts amount the children.  Avoiding the question
     usually sends an implicit message to the children that it is not
     appropriate to talk about the subject.  Meanwhile the question hangs
     there in the children's mind....  Finally, there is difference between
     avoiding the question and not making the children aware of the 
     the question (as in some cases of adoption).

>    As for not telling him out of love......if you want to tell your
>    kid it's ok to lie as long as you have a good reason then go for
>    it.  I don't agree....
    
     I am all for defending the truth and honesty.  If you take a look 
     in the PHYSICS, BIOLOGY, MATH, ASTRONOMY notesfiles, you will see me
     defending the truth at all cost :-).  As a matter of fact, I am so 
     concerned about the truth that someone once called me "a sticker for 
     scientific correctness" (see LDP::BIOLOGY note 88.8).  However, we 
     are talking about human relations here.  We are dealing with paradoxes, 
     contradictions, and dilemmas that are inherent in our complex lives.  
     I would like to know what you think of the parents who told their 3 
     year old that if he/she puts his/her hand on the hot stove, Santa 
     won't give him/her present next year.  I would say that the parents 
     are protecting their child.  In this area, all I can say is: "Do the 
     right thing".
    
    re .21,
     I am somewhat puzzled by your response.  You made it sound like
     I was passing my opinions on the mothers who put up their children
     for adoption.  But the fact is I have never done such thing.  All
     I did in .19 was reiterating a story about a mother who put up her
     child for adoption.  And that was all.
                             
re .26
     I don't know what to say to you other than that I do not like
     the way this discussion is going....  
    
     So far I have been called a liar (almost) to children, accused of
     being insensitive to the adoptees, and being sick....  I feel that 
     this is really uncalled for.  I re-read all my previous essays on 
     this topic....  All I can say is that if you read my essays carefully 
     and objectively, you will find that all I did was advocating what I
     believe will better the environment for the adoptees to grow up.  For
     the record, I did not mean to question other people's way.  I didn't 
     even claim what I said will work.  I was just presenting what seems
     reasonable to me for the discussion.
                       
     This will probably be my last contribution to this topic.  To all 
     those who read my essays, I thank you for your interest.  To those 
     whom I unintentionally offended, I once again apologize.  To the 
     parents of adopted children, good luck, and finally to the adoptees 
     of the world, my best wishes.

Eugene

>     Again I will not call them lies....  I would rather call it
>     protecting one's children/friends who are vulnerable to the harsh reality.
>     I am also curious to know what you think of the millions of parents who
>     told their children that Santa Claus exists.      

 	Any way you look at it when you don't tell the truth, It's a lie!!!
If you are into PHYSICS as you say, then you must realize that there are certain
facts of Physics that has to be accepted.  Thems the facts baby. You just have 
to accept it.  If your adopted I believe that it would be easier to know of your
adoption all your life so that you can deal with it.  I really doubt that anyone
can keep the kid from finding out of his adoption for 70+ years....

FLAME ON!  SANTA CLAUS.  GIVE IT A REST!!!  SANTA CLAUS IS A FAIRY TALE.  IT IS 
NOT AS IMPORTANT AS A PERSON'S ORIGINS.  I BELIEVED IN SANTA UNTIL I WAS ABOUT 
9.  IT DIDN'T CAUSE EMOTIONAL SHOCK TO FIND OUT THAT IT WAS DEAR OLD DAD.  IT IS
A PRETTY UNBELIEVABLE STORY ANYWAY.  COME ON.  I CAN'T BELIEVE THAT YOU HAD THE
NERVE TO USE A CHILDS FANTASY TO COMPARE WITH THIS.....
FLAME OFF!

>     In my opinion, the worst thing to do is 
>     to put a friend in anxiety for even a single second of the last few 
>     precious moments of his life.  Second, I would rather make a promise 
>     that I cannot keep so that my friend can die in peace.  As you said, 
>     this will "eat me up".  But I would rather have it eat ME up than have 
>     the harsh fact eats my friend up in his last few moments of life.

I would have compasion, yeah, but I would say "I'll try, or I'll give it 
my best shot."  then I  would follow through.  I would go over any remains
of the book, or any notes that he may have had. But I would never make a
promise I would not be able to keep.  I would try and sooth his mind the 
best I could, but to me, my word is everything.  I would hope he would 
realize that I couldn't make a false promise, I hate to sound cold or 
selfish but the reality of it is that he isn't going to agonize over it
for much longer.  I will for the rest of my life.

>     Is there no place 
>     for a little compassion to shield our children our friends from the 
>     truth of the slings and arrows and a thousand other natural shocks?
 
Compasion yes, Lies No!
   
>     Again I would not advise anyone to avoid the question.  This will 
>     needlessly raise doubts amount the children.  Avoiding the question
>     usually sends an implicit message to the children that it is not
>     appropriate to talk about the subject.  Meanwhile the question hangs
>     there in the children's mind....  Finally, there is difference between
>     avoiding the question and not making the children aware of the 
>     the question (as in some cases of adoption).


Avoid the question, diplomaticaly.  If you think that It will harm the child to 
avoid it further then don't do it.  I wouldn't.  It would then be time to tell
the child what he/she wants to know.  It's kind of like the Birds and the Bees.
You avoid it until he or she is old enough to handle it.


    
>     However, we 
>     are talking about human relations here.  We are dealing with paradoxes, 
>     contradictions, and dilemmas that are inherent in our complex lives.  
>     I would like to know what you think of the parents who told their 3 
>     year old that if he/she puts his/her hand on the hot stove, Santa 
>     won't give him/her present next year.  I would say that the parents 
>     are protecting their child.  In this area, all I can say is: "Do the 
>     right thing".
  
 First of all, I wouldn't tell my kid that if he or she touches a stove 
Santa won't give them a present.  What I would say is that it will cause them 
to get burned.  I'm sure no kid wants to recieve pain.  As for paradoxes, 
contradictions and dilemmas, lies of any sort make more than they solve. 
Human relations is no exception....(actuall it is even more apparent)
 
                             
re .26
     I don't know what to say to you other than that I do not like
     the way this discussion is going....  
    
>     So far I have been called a liar (almost) to children, accused of
>     being insensitive to the adoptees, and being sick.... 
     
>    ... To those 
>     whom I unintentionally offended, I once again apologize.  To the 
>     parents of adopted children, good luck, and finally to the adoptees 
>     of the world, my best wishes.

I didn't mean to call you a liar, although it may have sounded like it.
As with you, I'm only stating my opinion.  It just so happens that it 
doesn't agree with yours.  The Flames are just when it hit a nerve and 
emotions run a little high.  It is in no way meant to call you a Santa 
hater.  I also offer my apologies to those that I may have offended and 
wish the same good luck to the parents (natural and adoptive) and the 
children.

Bill

    EUGENE,                             
       I think you, only opinion, are totally off base
    in this subject. You have admitted as not being adopted so how can
    you make all these assumptions and ideas? Can you look at your mother
    or father or any sibling and see any resemblance? Good for you!
    I can't, Can you ask someone anyone in your family for medical
    background, ie: about cancer products taken earlier in their life,
    that might have been passed down to you? Good for you, I can't.
    Maybe if my mother is/was a druggie/drunk maybe I could help her
    in someway. But Santa Claus is not a harmful fantasy, children crtainly
    learn the truth before they are 5 1/2 or 6. 
       In adoption we are talking about a matter that concerns where
    life all started from.
         IN life adoption is not harsh reality but a fact of life.
    and if the adoptive parents handle it properly it is no big deal.

    Folks,
    
    There is one thing that Eugene said that I think people are missing.
    He said he was brought up by an uncle and never really quite felt
    he belonged (or words to that effect). Perhaps he feels that telling
    a child they were adopted would give them that same feeling of not
    quite belonging that he had. I think he is trying to keep a kid
    from feeling the same way.
    
    Bonnie

    Eugene,
       I'm sorry you were made to be felt that you never belonged. I
    was brought up the oppesite, I was one of the family, no if's ands'
    or but's. I grew up feeling loved/wanted and needed and like I had         
    a place in this family. I was never made to feel unwelcomed unless
    I put those feelings on myself. I was told I was always the girl
    they had dreamed about and they were never sorry about their choice.
               Lisa

    
    I didn't want to enter a reply to this topic but couldn't resist.
    
    I've learned through trial and error that the best way to treat children is
    with respect and dignity, to give them credit for being human beings.  
    To do this, one must use clear, straightforward answers to their
    questions.  Children *know* when they are being deceived; and once
    trust has been destroyed, it's very hard to rebuild.  I read somewhere
    not long ago, that it's been determined that if a child's trust
    has been violated by the time he/she is 4, then it will take a lifetime
    to rebuild this trust.
    
    One of the things that can drive a person crazy are mixed and double
    messages.  Another destructive situation is when parents invalidate
    their child's feelings; for instance, the child is terrified of
    the dentist but the parent insists that "there's nothing to be afraid
    of"; what is the child to think?  He/She begins to think she's crazy,
    and cannot know what he/she is feeling. The child begins to lose
    trust in him/herself--cannot identify his/her own feelings.
    
    At any rate, what I want to say is, if a 3 year old is wanting to
    touch a hot stove, the parent explains, "the stove is hot, it will
    burn you, it will hurt".  Period.  Clear, precise, straightforward.
    Why bring in threats of "no presents from Santa?"  This threat
    isn't even relevant to the hot stove and only serves to add more
    stress and worry to the child--now this child has to worry about
    not getting gifts.
    
    Parenting is the hardest job there is; I'm struggling still with
    my own childhood and also that of my daughter's.  Honesty is
    the one of the most important things a parent can be with a child;
    when one is honest, he/she is saying that he/she respects the child
    and is honoring this child with trust.  Children deserve to  hear
    the truth; it is insulting and destructive to lie to childen,
    "even for their own good."  One of my earliest memories if of
    my mother "lying" to me about going to the dentist (I was 4); she
    said we were going to town, to buy a toy; instead, she opened a
    door and there was the chair.  I remember to this day, that before
    I was konked out, I thought, "Mum's DOING this to me--oh no".  
    Years later, when my mother would suggest a trip to town, I would
    go into sheer panic, every building we walked into, I waited for
    the worst (dentist); and would only feel safe again, until I was
    back home.  Lying only served the purpose of relieving my MOTHER
    of anxiety (she didn't want to deal with my fears of the dentist);
    it was easy for her--I'm still working through it.
    
    Sorry I've rambled; thanks for listening;
    
    Maria
    
    
    
    
    

    RE .32
    Thanxs you've put alot of thought into yor reply and I feel I can
    relate to you. You mentioned trust many times and without it a
    relationship of any sort is not one that healthy. How true that
    is, in either adults to adults or adults to children. I know my
    boyfriend is a weekdend parent to three children and often I am
    there also to enjoy/panic at these times. I have learned that Honesty
    at all costs is best. The children often remember things as we as
    adults have dismissed them as being stuipd or silly. So often I
    wanted to coddle them from the reality but remembered that in the
    long run expierence and gentle truth is the best teacher.
    
                       Lise'

re:-.1
    
    I should apologize also,  I jumped all over your replys when I was
    a bit bent out of shape.   You see, I have been recently hurt very
    badly by lies,  I have always hated them in the first place.  What
    you were suggesting struck me, and my emotions got a little steamed.
    I flamed too quickly.  I knew there were somethings that were deemed
    untrue and yet weren't lies.  Santa Claus was one of them.  I felt
    that it was understood that fiction was not considered a lie, you
    pointing it out that following my logic "anything untrue is a lie"
    included old Saint Nick,  made me a bit tiffed.  Sorry if I blew
    off the handle.  I'm not even adopted so I probably have no right
    to be in here at all.  I'm just dead set against lieing.  Again,
    sorry for being so touchy.
    
    Bill
        

     Well, I admit that I am not doing a good job explaining my views.
Ever since I read the other referred notesfile, I realized that this is a 
very sensitive issue to many people.  Hence, I tried my best to express
my point without offending anyone (I feel that I definitely did a bad job on
this).  If anyone was reading this note around the time of my earlier 2 
submissions, he/she would have notice that I submitted and resubmitted the 
essays many times.  The reason was that I wanted to be very very careful about 
what I said.  The irony was that by the time I finished my rewriting, it is 
over midnight, and my brain does not work very well by then :-) ....
The result was a lot of cloudy talks and cloudy implications on my part.  
These cloudy things left behind a load of misunderstandings that I felt 
compelled to correct.  Then again due to the same reasons above, I gave more 
cloudy talks which induced more complications....  Right now I feel like I 
was "full of high sentences but a bit obtuse..."  I know I am being cloudy 
here again.  So at this point, I will take Bill's advice and be direct.  
Let me just say before hand that if I again unintentionally offend anyone, 
I ask for your apology.

Bill,
     I want to make it very clear that I was not comparing the story 
of Santa Claus to not telling kids their adoptions.  The only reason I 
brought up the Santa Claus story was because you insisted on, I quote, 
"Any way you look at it when you don't tell the truth, It's a lie!!!"  
Mathematically, I do not challenge the validity of such statement, but
it is definitely simplistic when applied to the issues concerning human 
relations.  According to such simplistic logic, you were lied to until you 
were 9!   I want to emphasize that the only reason I invoked Santa was to 
show the absurdity of such simplistic application of mathematical logic in 
this instance, consequently, showing that only by such absurd application 
can one conclude that the parents who do not tell their children about their 
adoptions are liars.  I implied nothing else.  I am sorry I said these 
things, but I promised to be direct.  I jumped into this discussion thinking 
I could contribute, but instead I ended up writing a lot of stuff to clear 
misunderstandings.  The last thing I want now is leaving any hostile feelings 
behind.  Maybe we can work this thing out over private mail (that is if you 
want to).

Lisa,
     I am glad you have a wonderful family.  You said in a previous note that
you did not know the adoption until 12 (If I am mistaking, please correct me).
Let me ask this.  Do you feel that you would have a sense of belonging to the 
family had you been told at an earlier age?  I know this question is somewhat 
unfair since it is purely hypothetical, but could there be a conceivable 
possibility that had you been informed of the adoption at a very earlier age, 
you could have felt totally different?  Before you answer this question, 
think about this:  Children are emotionally vulnerable.  The younger they are, 
the more vulnerable they are.  Also, family, by its very nature, is a complex 
institution.  Arguments rise between children and parents, between siblings.  
Usually, the adults are more careful about what they say, but sometimes 
children can say the most, how should I put it, blatant things to each other.  
The adoption issue just adds in more complications.  Sometimes, even the most 
innocent act (in other words, the things most children do not even pay 
attention to) out of the most benign intent can be interpreted differently 
from an adopted child's perspective.  Moreover, it is not just the family.  
There are the neighbors, relatives....  For many kids, it takes only one 
incident....  More important, it is at an early age that children develop a 
sense of belonging to the family.  Let me stress another point.  Once a child 
developed a sense of NOT belonging, it is very difficult if not impossible to 
change that perspective.  As you said, you learn about your adoption at 12.  
By that age, most people have already developed a sense of belonging (or not 
belonging)....  Of course, I do not deny that there are negatives of not 
telling the child about adoption.  I admitted in a previous note about the 
difficulty of concealing the adoption, but at least your case demonstrated such 
possibility (I apologize if I sound insensitive here).  It is not at all clear
to me that the negative of such concealment outweights the positive.  Let me 
also say that there are other aspects that I have not mentioned.  For that 
I refer you to the other notesfile where people talk about the difficulties 
of dealing with adoption.  Let me point out that all this is because of their 
knowledges of their adoptions (incidentally, most of the difficulties rise 
in an early age).  Once again, I will admit that I am "homegrown".  
However, I do observe, and I did not come to my conclusions by a fiat. Finally,  
I am only expressing another perspective of the problem, that is the average
day to day living environment rather than tracing one's roots, and I am in 
no way trying to ignore the significance of the latter issue.

Maria,
     Yes, I agree with you that some of those experiences can be traumatic.
All I can say is that people tend to remember the traumatic events.  Especially,
when it was done in such a way.  However, there are other things 
(eg. Santa Claus) that we later found out to be not exactly true.  After we 
grow up, we usually wave our hands with a laugh, and often forget (or think
them to be expected) about the tremendous psychological benefit we received 
from those fairy tales when we were children.  Warning!  I am NOT comparing 
Maria's experience with the dentist to the story of Santa Claus!!  What I 
am pointing out is that if our parents had been very strictly straight forward 
about everything when we were children, we wouldn't have had Santa Claus 
(and others) with all the psychological benefits that go with it.  All I 
can say is that if such things (being not strictly straight forward, that is) 
were handled properly, and done for ALTRUISTIC reasons, it is not necessarily 
bad (like Santa Claus).

Eugene

    Well, .36 should be .34.  I have been doing submitting and resubmitting
    again, but this time Bill managed to get in between :-) :-).

    Bill,                  
         I am sorry to hear what happened to you.
    In this long and somewhat heated discussion, I am also not without
    fault.  I agree with you that it is wrong to lie, but I also agree
    with you that it is ok to let children believe in Santa Claus.  
    This summarizes figuratively my feelings on this complex issue of 
    adoption.
    
    Peace
        
    Eugene                                 
                                     

    Let me clear up a few issues that have come up. Today at the mature
    age of 28, I feel very much part of the "family unit". I am loved
    respected, and a valued member of my family. For as the saying goes
    love is thicker than blood lines for family members get in disputes
    and don't talk for years or won't even be in the same room until
    a death of a love one dicates it necessary. I am glad I am loved
    and part of a family. Most of all we all love each other no matter
    how diffeerent we are as people, we are family and stick by each
    other no matter what.

I can honestly remember this ...

From the time that I was about 4 until I was nearly 5, I used to pray
for a blonde-haired, blue-eyed baby sister. (The chance of getting one
naturally was slim, my mom is Japanese and my dad had dark brown hair.) I was 
lonely and I figured that if I was going to pray for a sister, I may as well 
be explicit about my order ...

One day, we took a trip from Kansas to Texas.  At the time I thought Texas
was the next town over ... I remember spending a lot of time at my cousins' 
house.  As a matter of fact, I was there all day with mith my 6 cousins.  I 
wondered briefly where my parents and aunt were but forgot about it quickly 
in my bliss of having A LOT of kids to play with all at once!!!

Well, late in the afternoon, my parents arrived.  They told me to look in
the back seat of the car - guess what they had brought me?????  Yep, a
blond-haired, blue-eyed little girl baby.  INCREDIBLE!!	  God really did
hear my earnest prayers.

I never thought much about where she came from, I was a small child and
didn't care about where babies (really) came from.

Time went by.  I got over the normal feelings of sibling intrusion and wanting 
God to take her back, I didn't really mean it :^) and settled down into having
an honest-to-goodness blonde-haired blue-eyed little sister.

One day, I went running to the sounds of my sister screaming bloody murder.
I came upon about 4 other kids just beating the snot out of her (by now
we were living in Texas).  They were screaming horrible things at her.
"Jap lover" is the one that sticks out in my mind.  But my sister was
defiantly screaming back "I'm proud to be a Jap!"  Well, neither of us
knew what a "Jap" was supposed to be, but I peeled the creeps off her and
helped her hobble home.

When we got there and we told our mom what had happened, she got a really
sad look on her face.  (I supposed she was dreading this day.)  She told
us all about it.  She told us that my sister was born of my aunt, but
because my aunt already had six children and had gotten a divorce (she has
the same father as all of her biological sisters/brothers), she couldn't
afford to take care of any more children.  Then our mom told us that she
almost died when she gave birth to me and couldn't have anymore kids.  She
said that she and dad had overheard my many pleas to God, and that He had
offered them an opportunity to answer the prayer.  Well, my sister was
impressed that I had wanted her so badly and said something to the effect
"That she was lucky that I had prayed for her because some kids just get
stuck with their brothers/sisters, if they wanted them or not!"  The only
problem that she had with it is that she seemed a little perturbed that
she didn't have any Japanese blood in her.  After that, when people had
the nerve to ask her if she was adopted, she would just tell them that
she took after our dad (I remember how we used to chuckle about that one!)

Years went by, and when my sister was 13, my aunt tried to get her to come
live with her.  This hurt my parents to the core, but they didn't try
to dissuade her or anything.  They gave her the opportunity to think about
it and make her own decision.  It didn't take her long to make up her mind.
She told our aunt (her biological mother) that even though my parents didn't
bring her into this world, they were the ones that had insured that she
was still in it!  That they were the ones who had taken care of her when she 
was sick, praised her achievements and helped her through her discouragements.  
As far as she was concerned, they were her "REAL" parents.

Anyway, my sister is still my sister and even though the old saying goes
"Blood is thicker than water" - I couldn't love her any more!!  Love is
what counts.

Elaine

A friend of mine was telling me that when she was little some of the kids at
school started to tease her and they told her she was adopted.  She went running
home and told her mom what the kids had said.  Her mom gently said, "Well Honey,
actually, you are."  (the kids hadn't really known she was, it was just a thing
kids used to say to each other and probably still do. I know my sisters used to)
She was only about 6 or something.  They sat down and told her all about it.
How when they asked her brother what they should name his new little sister he
wanted to name her "hammer".  (he was only 4 and it was his favorite word.)
They weren't holding the truth from her for any other reason than to make sure
she was old enough to understand.  Her brother was also adopted, but doesn't
like for people to know, whereas she is proud of it and will mention it
offhandedly. 

Their parents could have kept it from them because they all look alike.  As a
matter of fact, she sometimes has a hard time convincing someone that she was
adopted.

She says that she would like to see her natural mother and any brothers and
sisters but only thru a 2 way mirror.  She wouldn't want to meet them or start a
relationship with them.


Another friend of mine adopted his sister's baby boy.  They told him right off
that he was adopted.  Because of court mixups the adoption didn't finalize until
he was three.  They had a party and he was walking up to everyone with a big
smile saying, "I was 'dopted today!"

Every kid loves to hear antidotes about when they were born (or while mom was
pregnant) and adopted kids are no different.  I'm sure they all cherish stories
about how the family felt about getting a new little baby.  Everyone needs a
past.

OK, I've never replied to anything in this file before tonight - so
things change for a little while...  I am adopted and have known about it for
as long as I can remember.   AND I LIKE IT!!  I am 45 years old and have 
encountered at least one problem about it!

When I was young I can rememeber knowing I was adopted and crying myself to 
sleep after a scoulding, thinking 'If I was adopted by some other couple 
things wouldn't be this way..." Eventually, still at a young age, I started 
thinking "what other couple, what other circumstances?"  I hadn't an answer.

Even later, still at a relatively young age, I decided that this couple
chose(SP, who cares) to 'have' me. I've always been very (*EXTREMELY*) 
happy for that.
This couple, (now, just my mom), worked extra hard to instill their values,
morals, etc, in me as I was growing up.  To this day, and to the day I die,
I will love them for this. They formed my character and my ideals, and the 
way I am and what I believe in. (over the years I've talked with several
other adopted adults and they seem to have shared my opinion).



I was married when I was 19 and sometime later I found us with three children,
ok, kids.  Later, one or more of the kids found themselves in a situation my
wife thought was due to my heritage. Eventually, through the efforts of my
wife and her father (whom I deeply respect for many reasons, I was the only
one who spent a night with him while he died of cancer) left me one
fold of paper away from a pointer to more information about my 'real'
parents.

I never opened that fold of paper, and have since destroyed it -- I KNOW
who my parents are - they raised me! BY CHOICE!!

I know what happily married couples will say about that - I also know about the
accidents possible with birth control - and I am also an only child!
My father died years ago and I am older now.  I speak with my mother almost
every week.  I always tell her I love her (and I mean it) not only because 
I missed several (hell, many) opportunities to also tell my dad.  
I know that at least one, and I expect all, of my kids know I'm adopted.  
They're all adults now - it hasnt really mattered. 

I just wish they really knew how much I love them.

    After reading and re-reading this notes file I as the Noter feel
    I must step in and again make another reply.
      
      Mom says that she does feel rejected in the part of "I am the
    parent that raised you and I love you, I'll never understand why
    you feel this way and why you feel you must search, but I know that
    since you are legally adult and supposedly mature to make decisions
    I can not stop you in anyway. I just hope you remember that we love
    you.  A blessing no matter how small for me it is a blessing.
        
       646.42.  Pls try counselling to help 
    >>> outlook might be wrong
    
     Your right my outlook might be wrong but again it might be right
    no-one will know except for what the agency told me when I went
    down there in person and sat face to face with one of the counsellors
    there. they told me that my bio-parents met at college and poof
    there I was, that tells me that I was illegimate probably not wanted,
    and definetly not expected. But again I say the women had guts not
    to risk a back street abortion, but went through the humilition
    of being unwed pregnant and being hidden somewhere for 9 months
    of her life. To me that takes guts. 
         If nothing else if she turns me down at least I can say I tried
    That is better than sitting my whole life through and wondering.
    
    
    
    Lisa

    re: .43
    
    I agree with you that "Action is better than Wondering" and 
    surely wish you well in your search.  Also, I didn't mean
    to imply that your outlook might be wrong - it just wasn't
    clear to me from earlier writings that you'd considered some
    of the possible outcomes; thanx for the clarification.  Seems
    like you've taken all you can into consideration (including 
    counselling). . .what can friends do but hope that everything
    works out well for you and your people, particularly your 
    adoptive mother?
    
    Steve