Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    I have both replied to and placed ads in the singles file.  The
    guidelines at the beginning of the file offer some very sound advice,
    which helps to avoid receiving 100+ replies.
    
    The more specific you are about your interests and what interests
    you about a person, chances are that the responses will be more
    compatible.  You may feel that you're being too picky, but it's
    best to say what you want, rather than having to explain why you
    feel that it's not going to work.  And yes, there are the people
    who will respond to the gender, rather than the interests.
    
    You're not going to find Prince Charming _anywhere_, but you will
    meet some new people who otherwise may never have crossed your path.
    

    I've heard from women who have put ads in SINGLES, specified what
    they wanted, and STILL got dozens of replies from men OBVIOUSLY
    outside the limits of what was asked for.  And then there were the
    men who would call her on the phone, send dozens of mail messages
    a day to ask "why haven't you responded?", etc.  It's exhausting.
    
    My original comment which Gale quoted in .0 was based on my feeling
    that SINGLES is not the best thing to try for someone just starting
    to date - it can be overwhelming - more so if you're female.
    
    				Steve

    RE:  .2
    
    You're right Steve.  I put an ad in the singles file about 1/2 years
    ago.  I got a total of 203 responses!!!  Most of them were just
    guys who I think saw "SWF" and automatically typed "send/author".
    It was EXTREMELY difficult to try and respond to all of those
    responses.  I wrote to a few, met a few, but didn't find that special
    SO.  Just about 1 month ago, I responded to a singles note, and
    the our relationship has been going VERY well since then.  He has
    deleted his singles note now, and so far we are very happy together.
    
    As for the first date scene, I had some doosies.  Some of them were
    complete flops, while others went very nicely but the man didn't
    want any kind of relationship.  
    
    Holly
    

    I agree Steve, the singles note can be exhausting. It is often a
    test of patience and politeness for all parties concerned. So many
    times I've heard people who get over their heads because they are
    seeing/want to see to many of the people that responded to them.
    
    The only solution to this problem is to be as open and honest about
    how you plan to use this resourse, ie: I'm going to go out with
    all the people that answered or I'll date a few at a time and try
    to get to know them or I'm just in this for fun and not a serious
    relationship, so the more the merrier. As long as your position is 
    understood upfront there should be less problems.
    
    I believe this note it is a unique vehicle to get together with someone
    who's path you never would have crossed otherwise. I am glad it
    existed when I recently became single. 8^) It was the only means
    I used to find someone new.
    
    Gail

    Use of Singles:
    
    For me I answered ads at first. It was about 6 months before I put
    in an ad.
    
    When I did put in an ad I was not prepared for the responses.
    
    

    Hi,  I have both replied to and added my own note in singles.  I
    only recieved about 20 replies.   The women I replied to recieved
    hundreds.  I was wondering, why the difference?  Do the women recieve
    more then men or was it my note?  (I admit it is a different one)
    The reason I entered one in the first place is because I tend to
    be kinda shy and I find it easier to get to know someone in MAIL.
    You know that all their replys are (mostly) honest in MAIL because they are
    writing it down.
    
    Bill
     

    Yes, the women receive more replies than the men, in about the 
    order-of-magnitude ratio you discovered.  Why?  I imagine it's because
    more men are willing to take on the risk of initiating contact,
    since it's what they've been expected to do for so long.  Also,
    a real concern is that the women have more to be afraid of (and
    given some of the things women have told me about replies they've
    gotten, I believe it.)
    
    Don't get me wrong - SINGLES is a great idea.  I used it, got more
    responses than I ever dreamed of, and met women whom I would have
    had little chance of finding otherwise.  However, that first few
    weeks was extremely difficult, dealing with rapid-fire rejections
    (in both directions) before things setlled down.  I would not recommend
    this to someone just "coming out of their shell", unless you are
    fond of trial-by-fire.
    
    Actually, I suppose I should clarify one point.  My recommendations
    are against putting one's own ad in SINGLES.  Responding to other
    people's ads can be low-key and fun, and may be a good way to start
    out (you at least know they are available, which gets you over the
    first major hurdle).  Don't get discouraged by rejections and
    keep trying.
    
    There is, however, a dark side.  Like in any endeavours of this
    sort, "there be jerks in yon network."  You may run into one or
    two.  If so, enlist the cooperation of the moderators, if needed,
    and try again.

    				Steve

RE: .6

I know of a guy who got as many responses as some of the women, so I guess 
it just depends on the ad :-)


RE: .0

When I decided to put an ad in, I did it anonymously and had decided that 
I would put all responses in a file, and let them stay there a full week, 
and then read them all (by printing them out), looking for things in common, 
before responding...  

In doing something like that - you are *not* overwhelmed, and you can 
select as you wish...  it was much easier on me, and went smoother for the 
guys I did eventually meet I think...

Out of the near 80+ responses I did get (yes, Holly, I'd never catch 
you :-)... )... I was able to narrow it down to less than 5 guys to answer. 
There was one guy I did not wait the week for, because his interests matched 
mine so closely, I couldn't wait to answer his mail...

In waiting the week, I didn't have guys calling me, to ask me *why* I had 
not responded...

My ad is now deleted, but it was an experience that I think can be handled 
*if* you plan it correctly... 

One thing that I did notice (several of my friends put in an ad at 
the same time as I did...) why do some guys send the same form letter to 
everyone?...  We all got the same answers, almost written word for word...
When the reply couldn't be personalized, I felt that answering was not 
worth it...

Steve... a comment you made in .0 was ... "After telling my story"....
I'd like to have some way to not have that sensation...  it makes the 
*first date* seem too much like a job interview...  perhaps more mail
before a first meeting (you can substitute mail for personal phone calls if 
you'd like - not necessarily at work :-)...), I'm not sure what, but I've 
heard too many people say "I felt like I was on a job interview"...

Just some rambling on the thought of how to respond/answer responses,
Gale

    I might be totally off-base, but I think that =SINGLES almost forces
    it to be at least a little like a job interview.  It doesn't matter
    if you converse via mail, or via the phone, or...
    
    This is because both parties have limited time to convey as much
    of the positive side of themselves as possible in the hopes of having
    additional time to really get to know the other person.  It's not
    as if you run into the person at work or in school etc. where you
    have lots of time to get to know them in a non-threatening/no pressure
    situation.  One (or two) poor mail messages and it does get tempting
    to just give up on them, especially if you don't know anything else
    about the person that makes you want to keep trying.
    
    I can't imagine talking with someone over the phone in a situation
    like this whom I haven't already talked with a lot via mail -- its
    stressful enough meeting someone "blind", but on the phone you don't
    even have the chance to see their facial expressions and body language.

	   SINGLES can be overwhelming even if you're NOT just starting
	to date! :-)

	   I came to DEC right from college and was going out with
	someone at the time.  We broke up not long after I started
	working.  I was use to being around people my own age, and
	having a very active social life.  Suddenly, I found it very
	hard to meet new people.  So I added SINGLES to my notebook,
	and replied to some ads.  I met someone really great, and we
	dated for a while.  Then he decided he just wanted to be friends
	(better than nothing - it was amazing how alike we were!). I
	answered some others, and finally (about three months later), I
	put in my own ad.

	   It was pretty overwhelming!  I met quite a variety of men,
	but very quickly got tired of doing the 'first date' scene.
	I agree with Steve, it's hard to keep 'telling your story' over
	and over, be it in person or mail (or phone).  I never did really
	'click' with any of the guys I met (though I thought some of
	them could've become friends, if they had wanted to continue to
	get to know me).  So I deleted the ad.

	   Right now, I've made a great bunch of friends (I switched groups,
	and ended up in a one with quite a few people around my age), and
	have a pretty busy schedule.  I still will respond to an ad, if it
	really catches my eye, but think I will hold off placing another one
	for a while.  I will definitely try to be more specific next time.

	-Amy-
    

'why do men send form letters'

Because, as a couple of other people said, 'telling your story' over and over is
easy to get tired of.  And being as there are more men, there is more
competition, therefore to get the same end response, men have to send more more
mail.

If I were a man wanting to use singles, I would put an ad in, and let whatever
women who were interested respond.  That way I would not be '1 in 200' men
swamping some poor woman, and probably being tossed out after a cursory look. 

I have better luck meeting people through the topical conferences, or real life.
It seems that once the market (SINGLES) reaches a certain size, one way or the
other you will get swamped unless you are super specific as to what you want. I
have a hard time dealing with checking people to make sure they fit a set 'list'
of prerequisites. 

Jim.

    
    	Greetings Y'all!
    
    	I just started reading SINGLES recently, but entered my own
    	 note shortly afterwards.  It's interesting to hear these tales
    	 of 10-200 replies, as I only received a couple.
    
    	It seems that the SINGLES file is great if you live in Mass.,
    	 N.H., etc., but not so hot if you live elsewhere.  I guess
    	 there just aren't as many single deccies living in the Deep
    	 South as there are up North. :-(
    
    	This brings up another thought.  Many replies here talk about
    	 being specific when you write your note as to what kind of
    	 person you want to meet.  I've mentioned it before in SINGLES,
    	 as have others, but it still irks me when people put in an
    	 entry and don't bother to tell us what part of the world they're
    	 in!  I suppose I think about it more because I _don't_ live
    	 in New England, but I keep wondering if I'd get more responses
    	 if I left out the line that says I live in Georgia???? :-)

    	I'm glad to hear that so many of y'all have had good luck with
    	 that file.  I'd also always wondered why there were so many
    	 anonymous entries.  It never occurred to me that people might
    	 be getting so many replies.  Also, I guess I was naive enough
    	 to think that in the wonderful world of DEC, most of the jerks
    	 would have gotten left behind, and there wouldn't be anyone
    	 getting hassled over an entry.  Guess I forgot about what
    	 happened to the old sexcetera file for a moment....... :-(

    	
    					-Rich
    

    I too have had less than overwhelming responce to my note in singles
    only a few in 1 year but being 2000 miles away from the bulk of
    the singles readers dosent help either...
    
    -j(who wishes more colorado singles read SINGLES)
    

    Regarding form letters, they can be VERY annoying.  The way I looked
    at is if the man wasn't interested in your ad enough to send a true
    response instead of just the typical form letter he sends to all
    the other girls, then he is not worth responding to.  A friend of
    mine had an ad in at about the same time that I did and she got
    responses from quite a few of the same men.  We compared some of
    the responses and a few of them were identical word for word.  In
    fact, I looked at one of the ads and noticed a date on it.  It was
    dated about 2 weeks before I even put my ad in the file!  It was
    these ads that both of us decided not to respond to at all.  It
    just showed that they weren't personal enough to send a true response.
    
    Just my opinion.
    
    Holly
    

       re .8:                                       
       
       > One thing that I did notice (several of my friends put in an ad
       > at the same time as I did...) why do some guys send the same form
       > letter to everyone?...  We all got the same answers, almost
       > written word for word... 
       
       Good grief.  A bunch of girlfriends compare replies that were
       sent, and then complain about some of the replies!?!?!?! 
       
       I'd think that a reply that is sent to a singles ad --
       particularly a reply to an anonymous ad -- is sent with the
       expectation that the reply is sent in confidence.  I suppose that
       some people enjoy nothing more than gossiping, but it's too bad
       that more restraint was not used. 
       
       --Don

    re: .9
    
   > This is because both parties have limited time to convey as much
   > of the positive side of themselves as possible in the hopes of having
   > additional time to really get to know the other person.

    On the lighter side..one way around this is to lock your date in
    a car for the day and drive to a far away place. This will force
    the person to converse with you eventualy. Yes, my blind date had 
    had enough of being "blown off" after the drinks after work scene
    so he devised such a scheme.  After spending 12 hours together we
    did manage to get to know each other, and it sure hadn't seemed
    like a job interview. Of course, you have to be pretty easy going
    to even accept this kind of date. 
    
    
    >I can't imagine talking with someone over the phone in a situation
    >like this whom I haven't already talked with a lot via mail -- its
    >stressful enough meeting someone "blind", but on the phone you don't
    >even have the chance to see their facial expressions and body language.
    
    Then again I had talked to this guy for about 10 hours on the phone
    the week before the 12 hour date...the only thing this led to was
    being uncomfortable talking to him in person. (thankfully I've gotten
    over this)
     
    
    If you can be open minded about it, there are alternitives to the
    date interview technique.
    
    Gail

    Well, I suppose that since I'm the host of SINGLES that I should post a
    reply to this string too.
    
    None of what I've read hear is news to me - I've heard it all through
    the users before.
    
    When I use the conference myself (I'm not using it now), I try to
    write a note that expresses how I think and what makes me me, rather
    than provide a bunch of physical characteristics that I'd like to match
    up.  When I come across a note that I might respond to, chances are
    that it shows how a person thinks more than what they look like and
    what they expect the man of their dreams to look like.
    
    Rich

    
    	You know, I really *feel* for those people who are so burdened
    by their oppurtunity to meet lots of members of the opposite sex.
    I mean how tough can life get? It certainly must be far worse than
    having no opportunity at all! So many real things to contend with;
    rejection, approval, showing or not showing feelings - it must be 
    maddening! Having fun on a date must be awful, the pits - especially
    when you could be sitting home alone - through yet another weekend!
    Maybe someone can come up with a fast scan video system allowing
    one to quickly search thru hundreds of faces and profiles which
    would somewhat relieve this terrible burden. Or use a computer to
    figure out things *for* you.
    
	It's very likely that this company's SINGLES file is the
    only such opportunity offered in the *world* - as an "employee
    benefit"! Just think if you had to go "public" with an ad in the
    Boston Phoenix!?! I cant understand how *something so good* can
    be looked at as a problem. There are so many others with far worse
    "problems" - like no opportunity at all to meet anyone, ever, by
    any means.
    
    	Joe Jas

"Regarding form letters, they can be VERY annoying.  The way I looked at is if
the man wasn't interested in your ad enough to send a true response instead of
just the typical form letter he sends to all the other girls, then he is not
worth responding to."

Give them a break!  If you expect '200' men to send you 'personal responses',
you'd better be prepared to respond in kind as well.  I doubt that you would
have time to write 200 personal responses; I doubt *anyone* has the ability to
write 200 "personal" anything!  I'd hate to slave over trying to get as much of
my person in 50 words or less, and then have it blown off and wasted, and be
thought 'annoying' if I used that particular piece of my writing again. I think
it's much better to establish whether or not there is some mutual interest
before getting 'personal'.

Let's face it...  these guys know the odds, and they are not going to invest a
lot of themselves untill they have reasonable odds.  Anything personal amoung
that many replies is going to be lost anyway.  Once you get down to maybe a
dozen people that you are writing to, *then* it becomes possible to
differientiate personally.

Oh, and, no, I don't send form letters, so I'm not just defending myself.

Jim. 

    well, I've never posted to singles, but I've responded to a few.
    Met a couple of nice guys.  One of them didn't get in touch with
    me for a second date, but it was probably due to poor communication
    on the first date (probably varying expectations).  Also, I'm sure
    he had other fish to fry, and that's okay with me :)/2.
    
    They were both what they said they were.  And I must admit, when
    I sent a message to them, I kind of created a standard paragraph
    about who I was, where I was coming from, etc - and then edited
    that to respond to their specific requisitions.  I mean, there's
    only so much you can say comfortably (and hopefully cleverly) in a
    mail message to someone you don't know.  I kind of felt like I was
    putting my best foot forward there - and although I didn't feel
    like I was on an interview, there were some awkward pauses (what
    IS the best thing to do on a first date?  Dinner?  Movie?  Chess?
    Dancing? Kiss goodnight?), considering I was so rusty at dating 
    I don't think it went poorly.
    
    I think if I ever find enough spare time, it might be interesting
    to post a note there, but right now I couldn't do the system (or
    the people there) justice.

    -Jody
    
    

  
    RE: .19
    
    First of all, I didn't 'expect' 200 replies.  What I 'expected'
    was some men to reply that at least had a few similar interests as I
    did.  Like I said before, a lot of the men that I got responses
    to just saw a "SWF, 21, blond, never married, no children" and
    automatically typed "send/author".  I would rather have gotten just
    a handfull of personal responses than have all of those people that
    I don't even think read my note.
                                    
                                    
    I tried to be as personal as I could when I responded to any replies.
    Including parts of their notes in my response.  I never did get
    a chance to wrote to all 200 men.  
                                    
    Now Jim, let's put the shoe on the other foot.  Say you put a singles
    note in the SINGLES file.  At the same time, three of your friends
    put one in.  You all got a response from the same girl and it turned
    out to be a form letter.  Would you reply?  Wouldn't you feel like
    she was responding to every "SWM" she saw in the file?  Like you
    were just "one of her many men that she wanted to string along?"
    Like you would be one of many men that she would date?  Sorry, but
    that's not for me.
    
    Holly
          
                                    

    Re: .18 Joe Jas
    
    	I don't think anyone is saying it's a problem.  I think the
    comments made so far are just to let people know what to expect
    if they haven't experienced it yet (I.E. if you're female, you
    should expect many responses, some of which will not be personalized,
    etc).  There were also suggestions on how to better utilize the
    conference.  Yes, the SINGLES file is a wonderful resource, and 
    there are people that have real "problems" meeting others, who don't 
    have the opportunities we do.  I know I had only heard rumors, and 
    was not really prepared for what I got.  Perhaps if I had read this
    note before then, I would have known what to expect.
    
    -Amy-

I have a very hard time writing to someone I dont know and telling them
    about myself I find it is much easier to talk face to face about
    the more personal of me. Another thing is the form letter I have
    never used one before but I often feel like doing it because of
    my experiences in the singles file. I have kept a record of which
    notes I have sent mail to and out of 21, 3 have taken the time to
    reply back! Now tell me Holly how whould you feel in my shoes if
    you had taken 20-30 minutes to write a well thought unique note
    and they dident even consider your time valueable enough to come
    back with even a thanks but no thanks reply? [no flames meant] 
    I might have even been one of your 200 since I do tend to like blonds
    tho its not the only thing I look for. I also read and re-read the
    note to be sure I'm close to what they say they are looking for
    though it really dosent seem to make a difference.
    I think the fact that the women tend to get enormous responce to
    their notes and men very few says something tho I'm not sure what...
    
    My note is still there but it might as well not for the success
    it has brought. I wonder if its just a matter of how well you
    sell yourself in writing -vs- what you're really like? I personaly
    think I write a real boring 'all about me letter' tho my life is
    not boreing at all.
    BTW- of the three that did respond to my note 2 were located 2000
    miles away(a spec I gave,ignored) 1 of those two was currently in
    a relationship and was only looking for, I'm not sure what. The
    one that was located nearby(across the street) is now a good friend
    and has introduced me to her single friends since we werent a good
    match on a few points that were important to both of us.
    
    Dont get me wrong I think SINGLES is great but I often wonder if
    it's not more difficult than other ways of meeting with even more
    games being played. It is a bit like the bar scene except you seldom
    see the face or get a name and rejection requires no action at all
    (beyond typing delete at the mail prompt).
                                                           
    -j(who has no answers just a note)
    

    RE: -1
    
    I understand what you mean.  It probably doesn't feel very good
    not to get a reply back.  I tried to answer all my mail, but it
    just got too overwhelming.  I would suggest that you send a reply
    in as soon as you see an ad that you like.  But keep it personal.
    Sending form letters just lessens your chances of getting a reply.
    If you send it in early, then you have more of a chance to get a
    response because the woman probably isn't quite overwhelmed with
    responses yet.  
    
    Holly
    

    RE: -1
    
    
    	How about this for an idea?  If all of the replys are
    overwhelming to answer,  why not send a form letter to all that
    you get explaining that you are really trying to get to all the
    replys and tell them that they will get another reply when you 
    can make it.  This way the person who took time to send you a personel
    note won't get discoraged and the people who set form letters get
    a taste of their own medicine.  Could this be a solution??
    
    Bill

    I couldn't help responding to this note!
    
    Two years ago, after not one, but TWO disasterous relationships,
    I was spending a lot of time alone and not minding it much.  Then
    someone I worked with told me about SINGLES, and I composed an entry
    and posted it.  I got a lot of replies, and I spent time replying
    to each of them.  I even went so far as to line up dates--this was
    June, and I had made arrangements all the way out to August.  Pretty
    impressive for someone who wasn't that busy in HIGH SCHOOL! ;-)
    Anyhow, I met the first two, had a good time, but felt that there
    was no 'click'.  Then I met #3, and REALLY liked him.  We made a
    lunch date, and were having such a good time that we hung around
    together all that day. What was funny was that both of us had "other"
    dates for that night--!  So we kept on seeing each other.  
    
    And now, two years later, we are getting married the end of Oct.
    
    I called up EVERYONE I had made dates with, explained the situation
    and cancelled the dates.  Then I took my name out of SINGLES;  I
    had a feeling I wouldn't want to see anyone else.
    
    So I can tell you that it worked for me.  I could possibly have
    met him another way I suppose, but who knows?  I'm glad it turned
    out so well for us, and certainly wish everyone in SINGLES the best
    of what they are looking for.
    
    Jane

	I can't understand how anyone who "claims" they are looking to meet
    someone in SINGLES can just ignore someone who spent some time putting
    it to words a little about themselves. Sooooo many times I have written
    to female entries in singles with a little description (not a form letter
    either) of my self (likes, dislikes, general stats.) just to get "Radio
    silence" back.... Its not like I write to every female entry that pops up.
    I will only write to the ones in which I fall into the so called
    "specifications" AND they fall in mine, but still no responce....

	Maybe part of what I have heard is true. Maybe there is a lot of
    "DEC vultures" (one who replies to any and all female entries), maybe
    there is a lot of women out there who think they are "too good" for most
    of the men who reply.

	I don't see why these people can't be truthful and honest. It takes a
    lot to reply to one of these notes and then to be totally ignored... Why
    can't they write a little message saying that they are not interested.???
    I feel after I had spent the time to read the note and then to write a
    reply it's the "LEAST" thing they could do.

Peter_s

    For what it is worth, I have stopped responding to the Singles notes.
     I have gotten more situations where the girl did not have the decency
    to respond that I got fed up.  Why should I bother?
    
    I also had an ad in the file.  I got almost no responses to it.
     So, it makes amusing reading, but that is all.  Why bother wasting
    time.  Just use it for a laugh once in a while.  That seems to be
    all many of the others are doing.
    
    

    in re .28
    
    I was not aware that children were entering notes in singles...
    
    Bonnie

    nit alert!!! nit alert!!!

    re .30
           your there "one more time"  I like your comments.
    
    As for the Singles file .....
    
           I enjoy reading the entry's there , and make a point 
      to not get TOO  or should I say overly Emotional about 
      getting or not getting a reply. 
                                        Life's too short .... :-)
    

    Re .31
    
    	Yes, that is what I meant to say.  I obviously did not do a
    good job of it.
    
    As for the reply about girls, I apologize for the slip.  However,
    if you must be so vain as to be concerned about being called a woman
    instead of girl, then I am sad for you.  I suppose you would have
    been offended by the use of the term lady also?
    
    In this day and age, we must get past the concern about what words
    are used and try to understand the intent behind them.  I made no
    attempt to insult anyone.  I merely tried to indicate that very
    few women in the Singles conference seem to even send a rudimentary
    acknowledgement in return.
    
    Ed..
    

    Ed, no i'm not vain ...I was just gently pulling your chain.
    
    Bonnie

    Re: .32
    
    We must also learn to avoid the well-ingrained pattern of
    attack/defense/counterattack.

    I currently waiting thru my 3rd week for a reply on a note that
    promised every note would be answered quickly. I must have a different
    impression of what quick is....
    
    -j
    

	Some of my favorite lines that females will put in there notes and
    the meanings:


Line:	"All mail will be answered"

Meaning:   You will never be hearing from her...


Line:	"Weight proportional to height"

Meaning:   Fat...   (Why can't they tell us how much they weigh and how tall
           they are). 


Line:   "Hope to hear from you."

Meaning:   Only if you are Mel Gibson, all other need not reply....



Peter_s

    re: .0
    
    That's a tough request. No matter WHAT one does, its going to be
    hard for awhile.
    
    NO matter WHAT you put in for a 'desired' profile,some people
    will fudge a bit on their responses; assuming that after you get
    to know them, the 'little things' won't really matter.
    
    The sorts of things I would do differently, is to leave out any
    'tracer' to my financial worth (such as it is, it is better than some,
    although not as great as others). 
    
    I think I would empahasize the 'emotional' values more than the
    activities, unless they are activities  I positively would never give
    up or abridge (such as hiking and contra dancing). 
    
    There is one thing i've alluded to over the years, and that is what I
    call the "N+1 Factor" . No matter how many things we can imagines as
    being good for us; desireables; avoidable; necessary .. there will
    always be ONE MORE than what we alone can conceive. 
    
    That ONE MORE (as yet) unimaginable 'thing', may be just the sort of
    thing that will sway our minds and hearts to another, regardless of a
    number of 'negative values' which do not correspond to our desires. 

    Given that some (as yet) UNmet person may have that ONE MORE thing, how
    then to screen adequately the people responding .. each one hoping for
    a match, a chance to fulfill their desires, and opportunity to find
    that ONE piecs of magic to kindle a flame in their heart .. how to
    handle the myriad of responses ina gentle sort of way, so as not to
    discourage them from 'trying  again'. 

    Life is funny (hilarious, if you don't take it too seriously .. hah hah
    .. ce' joyeux tres bien, c'et un blague )... The oddest things can
    happen at the darndest times .. when we least expect them. 
    
    Sometimes its hard to belive that there IS NOT some force somewhere
    manipulating the strings of our destiny.. 

    Bob

    re .36 
    
    I suspect humor was intended on that response but some believe that
    to be the truth. From another view point you could look at it this
    way:
    
    >Line:	"All mail will be answered"
    
    Meaning: If you send an an honest, thought our reply I'll answer
    you. What may happen is that the writer gets inundated by replys that 
    are so off the mark that he/she decides to concentrate on getting
    answers to those whom he/she feels could be a match.
    
    >Line:	"Weight proportional to height"
    
    Very few men have any idea what women "should" weight. Virtually
    everyone adds the phrase to their entry, less it conspicuously be
    missing. Have you noticed the clever ways recent entries have been
    mentioning that height/weight aren't proportional! A good trend
    to see.
    
    I wanted to add this because I don't want the "Singles doesn't work"
    campaign to get any larger. I think it works (and I'll qualify that
    with I think it works for the MA & NH area). It just takes patience,
    and an open mind.
    
    Gail
    
    

    I think "weight proportional to height" is a good statement to
    use.  When I tell someone how much I weigh, they're always
    surprised it's that much, and I'm *NOT* fat.  It's much simpler
    to just say "weight proportional"  (which I believe is what I
    did, way back when I had a note in singles).
    
    BTW, we don't have the problem with high volume out here (Colorado)
    that you have back east.  Not a wide variety of folks, either.
    
    Paula

    RE: Peter_s
    
    I don't think weight proportional to height .eq. "fat" ....  I know
    when I had an ad in, I said the same thing, and I've been told by
    many (including the metropolitian weight charts :-)..) that I am
    not fat...  
    
    It was funny though.. I remember getting mail from one guy, that
    made me swear before we met that "I was not fat"... that he just
    couldn't take "fat" women...  I thought he had a LOT of growing
    up to do....

RE: CLBMED::KLEINBERGER

	I know for a fact its not just me but others who have met these
    "weight proportional" people and they are "fat" not only the ones in
    the singles notes file but I know of people who belong to dating
    services who have run in to this. The "weight proportional" term is
    fine as long as its true. All I was trying to say is in a lot of cases
    it is not true. I think if a person can't start by telling you the
    truth from the first note then you know they will never be able
    to tell the truth.... (once bitten, twice shy)...  Whats this world
    coming to when we have to lie to someone just to meet them.....


Peter_s

    
    	It seems to me that "weight proportional to height" also 
    	can be a matter of interpretation.  Someone might feel their
    	weight/height is proportional but yet someone else might see
    	them as "fat".  
    	
    	Is it just women that have the problem of weighing more than
    	we look like we weigh??  And I'm not trying to make excuses,
    	but I agree with a reply a few back...if I tell someone (most
    	anyone) how much I weigh I guarantee I would get shocked looks
    	and comments such as "Nahhh, you don't weigh that much!"
    	Therefore, I refrain from telling anyone and when it comes up
    	before I meet someone for the first time (i.e., thru mail/phone)
    	I usually wonder if they are really the type person I want if
    	they are so concerned about looks.  After all, you aren't meeting
    	to "get married"...but to get acquainted and "test the waters"
    	for a possible further relationship.  It often ends in just
    	remaining friends.  If some of these people can't even handle
    	having "less-than_perfectly_shaped" friends (altho my shape
    	isn't half bad!:^) ) then maybe I don't need them for my friends.
    
    	My
    

    I have the opposite problem - the other day I told a friend of mine
    that she looked fabulous, and she said "I've put on ten pounds!"
    Clearly there are differences of opinions about optimal weight.
    
    I suggest being honest, describe yourself however you want, and
    don't worry about those who will reject you out of hand simply
    because they think you weigh too much.  I do agree that very
    few people know what a "proportional" weight is, and thus giving
    actual weights is probably not a good idea.

    				Steve

    I am me.  I weigh more than I look like I weigh.  I am constantly
    improving my body. I am fit, but I am not skinny.  I have curves - I am a
    woman.  I will never look like Paulina or Christie or Cheryl (Ladd,
    Tiegs, whatever).  I will only look like me.  I am, however, much
    more than my body - I have intellect, feelings, creativity, emotions,
    insights, humor, wit, warmth....
    
    If I'm looking for someone who just wants a body, I'll include my
    vital statistics and nothing more....

    slightly disappointed that so many people are focused on bodies...
        
    -Jody
    

    
    Well said, Jody! 
    
    		Myra

    Okay, I'll lay it on the line here.  I'm 5' 5 1/2" and weigh
    130 - 135 pounds.  I think that sounds a tad on the heavy side,
    but I don't recall *ever* hearing a single complaint from a
    man about my body.  What do you men think, does that sound
    okay, or a little plump?  Most of you don't know me, but Jerry E.,
    would *you* say I'm overweight??  
    
    Paula

       we've had discussions along this line in =wn= also. It does seem
       that men are more concerned about what a person looks like than
       what they are as a person. I agree that sexually I don't care for
       obese persons but I strongly suspect that many of those being
       described as fat aren't even near obese. For those of you being
       so picky, what makes you so great? Do you look like movie stars,
       are your bodies PERFECT? are your souls perfect?

       And just as a tangent, maybe the person you don't hit it off with
       knows someone you would like? Maybe they would end up introducing
       you if you had the simple good manners to be friendly.

       From all I've heard of singles I believe I'll avoid it when that
       day comes that I feel ready to try a relationship again. I'd
       rather meet men who share the same notesfiles I do and whose
       personality and opinions I have had a chance to meet before
       either of us was trying to impress someone.


              liesl, PS, Paula is almost skinny!

    Re: .48

    RE: .48

    I dunno - are people allowed to generalize in H_R? :-)  C'mon Liesl....
    
    I agree with Jody, and, as I hope I hinted in my earlier note, don't
    let weight and other physical attributes prevent me from getting
    to a terrific woman better.
    
    And Jody, having met you recently, I say you're just right...
    
    I haven't looked in SINGLES for a while (I've chosen to use other
    methods), when I was looking, I found the few women who did write
    ads to be just as picky about physical attributes as the men, on
    the average.  There was one woman, I recall, who specified height
    within a three-inch range!  Now THAT'S picky!
    
    				Steve

    re: .47
    
    You rang?
    
    Hi Paula.  No, I wouldn't say you were overweight or fat.
    
    Of course, it has been a few years since I've seen you and
    there's no telling how much you've changed.  If you come
    out this way I'll be glad to give you a thorough inspection
    and issue an updated report.  8-)
    
    BTW - according to the 1983 Metropolitan Height and Weight Table
    you are at the upper end of the "normal" range for a woman with
    a small frame and in the lower 1/3 of the range for a woman with
    a medium frame.  So, according to the insurance company, you're
    fine!

    Re: .47
    
    I haven't met you, Paula, but I think your weight is fine.
    
    Something I kept meaning to say earlier but didn't - the reason
    I suggested not to worry about the men who were picky about
    physical attributes is because they're too shallow to be worth
    getting to know anyway.
    
    I also suggest for further reading the "what turns you on" and
    "what turns you off" notes earlier in this conference.  (I'll
    put the note numbers in the title of this note.)
    
    				Steve

    
    re .51
    
    Maybe she needed a mannequin...

   	Well said, Jody...  I weigh 20 pounds more than I did in high
	school and I'm fitting into  smaller sized clothes then I did
    	then.  Amazing?  not really, when you look at body-fat percentage.
    	A friend of mine kept saying she needed to loose 15 pounds,
    	and I kept saying she was crazy and should get tested.  she did
	and discovered she was in the "lean" category for women!
    
	Since I am only seriously interested in men who are fit and
    	health oriented (because that is my interest) I would like 
    	to see them include their body fat percentage!  Beautiful
	bodies are irrelevant; fitness/health are!

    
    		sherry

    
    	PS... Paula you do look *great*!

    re: -1
    
    	ok Mike...I'll ask for their cardiovascular fitness... their 
    	heart rate before and one minute after the *test* :*)
    
    	I don't mind exchanging pictures, but it takes longer...the
    	net is *much* faster.

    		sherry

      Why is that just because someone is 'physically' attracted to people
      who are thin, it makes them shallow? To me there are several things
      that go into a relationship that is more than just friendship, one of
      those things being looks. But along with looks I am concerned with
      personality, intelligence, sense of humor, etc... I have dated people
      who I felt were very attractive, but were too into their own looks, that
      was a turn off. I have friends that have all different shapes, sizes,
      looks, personalities, and smarts. But it is a certain combination of
      these and other things that make me want someone as a SO. I am not
      perfect (far from it) but that doesn't mean that I can't be searching
      for my 'perfect' someone.

              - bob -

	OK, lets all get way off track on this "fat' issue... I mention
    a few lines pulled from a few notes showing how "false advertising" plays
    a major part in these introduction notes and everyone get all bent out
    of shape on one of them... (Is it that these people who are getting all
    upset are the culprits)...

	I have noticed in previous replies that some of you have mentioned
    that people have told you "you don't look overweight". Some people have
    told me that I look like Don Johnson, should I beleive it, should I go
    and put this in a singles note, NO,, because I am me and thats the way I
    am. I'm not going to tell someone that I'm someone I'm not...

	Then I see replies saying that what someone looks like isn't as
    important as personallity, (this is true) but what kind of personallity
    can these people have when they lie about what they look like from the
    very begining....

	Let us not forget the other "lies" I had mentioned. These people who
    claim in the note that they are "honest and caring" and they say they will
    reply to all mail, and they don't care to be honest enough to actually
    do what they say.....


Peter_s

I came across a quote in the newspaper yesterday, and immediately thought of
this note (*I* don't know why!).  Here it is, reprinted without permission from
the Nashua Telegraph, September 25, 1988 issue:


"Thought for today:  'Common-looking people are the best in the world; that is
the reason the Lord makes so many of them.'  -- Attributed to President
Abraham Lincoln."


Where are presidents like that when you *need* them?!


Brian

    There really do seem to be two types of people that use SINGLES
    (and that's not a division by sex!).  Those that specify what they
    want with a list of what their Prince(ss) Charming is, and those
    that write a note that tries to show how they approach life.  Lately,
    there seems to be an increase of the first (shopping list) style.
    I've also noticed that age does have a bit of bearing as to which
    style of note a person writes, with the "shopping list" people
    generally being younger than the other group.
    
    The increase of the number of people taking the "shopping list"
    approach bothers me a bit.  It is my feeling that you are more likely
    to find someone that you can enjoy being with for long periods of
    time if you take similar/compatible approaches to life.  Certain
    physical characteristics may be nice, but they deteriorate over
    time.  Personalities change too, but often they change in manners
    that are designed to find more and better ways of pleasing your
    partner, or letting your partner know what pleases you.
    
    Sure, there is a bit of a utopian view in what I'm saying, but I
    still believe that it is a much more realistic approach than some
    of the lists that I've seen.
    
    Rich

    Boy talk about shopping list notes there was one put in today that
    wins the cake by a anon 23 yr old brown curly haired lass. 
    I suppose it never hurts to look for qualities(looks,weight,ect)
    that seem important to you but asking for perfection seems to take
    it a bit far...
    
    -j
    

	re .0: My ad only got about a half-dozen responses (spread
	out, about one a week), so keeping up with them wasn't
	difficult:-). My ad was titled "The Perfect Date", and in it I
	described my concept of the perfect way to spend a day with
	someone special, working most of my major interests (music,
	sports, food, Boston) into it. As many other people have said,
	it is important to be specific. Nearly every generic ad I
	replied to was a complete waste of time, and it could have
	been avoided very easily if the person had been more specific
	about her interests and what she was looking for in the
	original ad.

	When answering ads, while not keeping a form letter around to
	use for each one, I did generally stick to a certain format -
	I'd point to my own note, give a little basic biographical
	info, talk about whatever interests we appeared to have in
	common, and ask for more info (other interests, etc.). Again,
	as other people have said, it's easy to run out of fresh
	approaches.

	I would recommend that once you've established through mail
	that you're both interested, you move as quickly as possible
	to human contact (i.e., the phone). Words on a screen just
	can't convey what a person is like like a voice can. And
	definitely talk on the phone a few times before setting up any
	dates, to get some of the initial "job interview" stuff out of
	the way and be sure you're both on the same wavelength as far
	as expectations go.

	What would I do differently? Nothing - thanks to SINGLES, I'm
	getting married next week! (BTW, I responded to her ad, not
	the other way around).

	Mike

       First off, all you who admonished me are correct. It's not *just*
       men who allow the physical to sway their decsions about persons.
       I was reacting to a couple of guys who made comments about the
       women they'd met as being fat and lying about it.

       I too make physical judgements about persons whom I may be
       attracted to sexually. I just wasn't aware that if one advertized
       in SINGLES it was only for that perfect other and that all others
       were (what I percieved from the notes prior to mine) wasted time
       and effort.

       Like the song says "look at all the lonely people, thinking that
       life has passed them by". But maybe I don't have the right to
       make comments on this as I don't even feel ready in trying to have
       a relationship again. I read somewhere that it takes women (on an
       average) 2 years to "recover" from a divorce. Ah well, one down
       and one to go. liesl

    
    Re.65
    
    Firstly, congratulations Mike! Happy futures.......
    
    Just wanted to say that as one of the (doubtless) many who read
    SINGLES but have never written to it or answered an ad - I remember
    your ad and it struck me as one of the nicest ones on there. I'm
    amazed that you so few replies. If I was "in the game" I would
    certainly have replied :-)
    
    All the best as a non-single,
    
    Abigail
    

	re .67: Thanks Abigail, glad someone besides Dee like it:-).
	
	re .66:

> I just wasn't aware that if one advertized
>       in SINGLES it was only for that perfect other and that all others
>       were (what I percieved from the notes prior to mine) wasted time
>       and effort.

	This reminds of another point I meant to make about
	expectations. First off, those who advertise in SINGLES each
	are looking for something different - some are looking for
	permanent relationships, some for casual relationships, and,
	yes Virginia, some are looking for sex. If the expectations
	are made clear, not necessarily in the note itself, but early
	on in the initial exchange of mail messages and phone calls,
	then all of those are OK - if the things each of you is
	looking for are compatible, fine, if not then you can say "No
	thanks, that's not what I'm looking for in my life right now".
	If you're not honest right at the beginning about what kind of
	relationship you're looking for (or are willing to accept),
	that's where a great deal of pain can be caused.
	
	Speaking for myself, I went through a period where I was
	trying hard to find a serious relationship, and failing
	miserably (perhaps coming on too strong and too seriously). I
	then decided maybe I wasn't ready for that kind of
	relationship, and then decided to let any relationship I
	started to establish develop at its own pace, in its own
	direction, without trying to push it in whatever direction I
	had initially decided I wanted it to go. It only took a few
	months after that decision for me to find the love of my life.
	
	I think it applies in general to seeking relationships, not
	just to SINGLES or personal ads - don't lock yourself into a
	pre-conceived idea of who you want or what kind of
	relationship you want - play it by ear and what/who you want
	may be more likely to find you!
	
	Mike

	It is interesting to note that except for rare occasions
	that folks dont write about their down sides or weeknesses.
	These can make a person interesting although the perspective
	author might think so.

    I have found that discussing my weaknesses during the beginning
    of a new relationship makes new friends uncomfortable.
    
    It is also quite true that a weakness may appear important initially
    but when evaluated against the positive qualities that have been
    discovered as we get to know people it might have little meaning.
    
    

    When I was performing my mentor always told me,
      "Never apologize ahead of time for a performance.
       It's dangerous to set negative expectations."
    
    Nanci

    
    	What you think is negative in yourself might be a positive
    	to someone else.  What you think is positive in yourself, 
    	may be seen as negative to someone else.
    
	Using body image as an example (although I probably don't
    	need one...):  I had one boyfriend who I thought was really
    	handsome.  One time I told him what a nice looking face he
    	had, eyes, hair, etc.  He got embarrassed cause he didn't
    	see himself that way at all.  I was telling him how a different
    	boyfriend decided that I was not "thin" enough and how that
    	made me feel when I was working so hard at getting fit.  He
    	thought the other boyfriend was crazy, he thought I looked
    	just fine!
    
    	yah...I know it's a cliche, but...    	

    re:  .71
    
    I have to agree with what you said, Nancy.  Setting negetive
    expectations is a sure way to end up with the short end of the stick.
        
    It's as if to say, "I know you'll get mad, but...", or as a performer,
    "This part's a little rough, but...".  It is, almost, always a setup 
    for *bad news*.     
    
    Give the individual the individual the opportunity to make his/her
    own decisions regarding what s/he likes and dislikes...  There is 
    nothing worse than preconceived judgements/ideas.
    
    Why should negetives be brought to light before the positives have
    had a chance to shine.
    
    Mary Beth
                          

       
       
       	This has been an interesting volley of notes.. As Rich said, we've
       heard it all before.. I created SINGLES one night out of boredom
       and at the pestering.[:-)]..er..suggestion of Gale K. from a VAXphone
       conversation we had one late night..  It's a little strange how
       it's all working out for the most part.. 
       
       	As far as the responses/replies/entries situation goes, well, I
       gave up entering anything in SINGLES and I doubt I'll ever put
       anything in there again.. Mostly cuz of:
       
       1. The replies, I never counted but they were considerable over time
          The lack of MY time to compose replies to the mail. I have a 
       	  REAL job too and many times that was impacted.. And I didn't
          want to spend my nights replying to people either... (I'm
          up this late tonight cuz of sleep problems! Sigh)
       
       2. Frustration.  I guess I just never really met someone who
          clicked and THAT'S frustrating.. Plus, the blind date situation
          for ME is quite annoying.. I feel like I'm up on stage having to
          perform or something.. I'd rather casually get to know someone
          first.. Blind dates frustrate me for the most part..
       
       3. Same old hat.  I've met and dated a good number of people in
          DEC, mostly over the net first.. Even fell in love with 2
          of them.. (though NOT at the same time! :-)) But when the
          mails start it's almost like deja vue sometimes.. It all
       	  seems "familiar" and a little repetitious. I guess I could
          do with a change of scenery.. :-)
       
       	SINGLES is obviously a great help to many people and I'm VERY
       happy to have helped those that have benifited by it. It really
       brings a smile to my face and makes alot of the earlier hassle
       of SINGLES worth it.  Only, it's not for me.. Strange, huh?
       
       
       						mike
       
       	p.s. I'm still waiting for some of the married ex-SINGLES
       to have a kid and name it after me.. It's in the rules! :-)

    re .74: Sorry Mike, I've sworn not to have a Jr.:-)

    (the other) Mike

       RE: .75
       
       	Then cold cash will suffice... :-) :-) :-)
       
       						mike

	 WHEW!  I just read ALL these replies....!
	 
	 First nit about SINGLES.....  The moderators there seem to
	 HATE idle chit-chat, but don't seem to bother doing it
	 themselves in other notes files ... :-)  :-)  :-)
	 (note the smiley faces....)

	 SINGLES...  let's see...yes I have an entry in there...
	 form letters are a no-no....no I didn't answer every message
	 I got but tried (I live in Colorado and got over 50
	 replies... 80% + from back east even though I specified
	 Colorado).

	 About the "not receiving mail back" well, I tend...if I am
	 answering one, to say something short and funny and give them
	 a pointer to MY note....I am not going to but the energy into
	 telling you everything about me...I've already done that with
	 MY entry....so why not just point to it....that way it may
	 not be so hard when you don't get a response!

	 I like SINGLES, I've met lots of nice guys and nice women
	 too---since the main objective was friends, then I think it
	 was a really good way to go about it... I can understand the
	 'first date' scene being hard....I didn't have the problem
	 because 2000 miles is a long way to go for a first date!  But
	 sending mail when I get a chance to the friends that I HAVE
	 made through singles.....I'd say its well worth it....


	 kathy (who's got a date tonite through the singles file!)

       
       
       
       	RE: .77
       
       
       	Smiley faces "noted" Kathy.. :-)  I personally hate the idle
       chit-chat in SINGLES cuz of the format of the conference.. As
       you seem to notice, I idly chit-chat my way thru many others
       but it's ok in them.. That's part of why they are set up..
       
       						mike

    When Mike and I talked about Singles, we wanted something that
    was similar to "The PHOENIX" here in Boston.  It is a singles magazine
    that you can buy (free?), and has nothing but single ads in it.
    In fact the very first name for singles was "THE_PHOENIX"...

    Idle Chit-chat was referred to WRU, or Friends.. since then WRU
    became a registry only, and Kristy G created Flirts... it was there
    we referred people...
    
    What Singles is today, is strictly because of Mike and Rich Whalen
    who took it over when it left the HBO node...
    

    Mike, although it was my urging to start it, it was you who should
    take all the credit.. it was your neck on the chopping block, not
    mine :-)....
    
    
    Gale

       A tangent, re .80 and the Boston Phoenix:
       
       > [The Boston Phoenix] is a singles magazine ... and has nothing
       > but single ads in it. 
       
       I sometimes wonder how people get bizarre ideas and misconceptions
       in their head.  Maybe it's when someone writes something in notes
       without the slightest clue as to what they're talking about, and
       the poor reader doesn't know enough not to believe it. 
       
       Anyway, The Phoenix is a weekly newspaper, born of the underground
       newspapers of the 1960s.  The first section is a news section,
       concentrating on local news and often covering topics too hot for
       the mainline dailies (the Herald and Globe) to handle.  The next
       sections are devoted to arts and entertainment in Boston --
       movie/theater/gallery/tv/restaurant listings, reviews, and feature
       stories. The last section of The Phoenix has classified ads for
       all sorts of things, the most provocative of which being the
       singles ads. 
       
       For those people who perceive Boston as something more than
       a place to either catch an airplane or go see "Disney on Ice",
       the Phoenix is an invaluable resource.
       
       --Mr Topaz

       RE: .79
       
       	In it's most basic form, yes, SINGLES is set up as a "market"
       for people to advertise themselves.. Singles issues can be
       discussed but idle chit-chat is left to other notesfiles..
       
       	BTW, this is partly because of the readership. Most want it
       that way..
       
       							mike

	 Well, I went to the SINGLES file and read the rules...it
	 seems to say that SINGLES is for Single DEC people to meet
	 other people....No were in the rules does it refer
	 to idle chit-chat...or that the conference is mainly for
	 inserting "ads" (Last time I new, Phoenix was a city in
	 Arizona and also a bird...I know nothing about this newspaper
	 stuff...).  There are numerous notes toward the end of
	 the rules however, chewing people out for chit-chat...but never
	 something in the actual "rule list" forbiding it...

	 Maybe the rules need to be rewritten to say what SHOULD go
	 into singles...
	 
	 I also cruised through some other notesfiles and discovered
	 that they all basically say the same thing...stick to the
	 main topic...this is for discussion of issues...granted, I
	 don't like chitchat in notes either and I know that I am
	 guilty of it, too... but I see no difference in chit-chatting
	 in SINGLES as opposed to the same thing in here....sounds
	 like some kind of double-standard to me...  maybe we should
	 all think whether the reply we are about to put in helps
	 emphasis the base note...if not, don't put it in...I find
	 myself doing that a lot...who wants to hear my chit-chat with
	 someone else, anyway...?


	 hummm....we're WAY off the basenote subject here anyway...
	 enough said...you know my mail node if you want to argue
	 about it further..
	 

	 kath

    re: .52 (re: .47)

    Well Paula, I'd say 135 lbs. is very proportionate for you!  Which
    only goes to show how subjective this type of evaluation is.