Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    I think that education, experience and exposure has led us not to
    play mind games but has led us to question how we give our love.
    
    There is romantic love...a feeling that overcomes tremendous odds.
    
    And there is practical love...a feeling that loving this person will
    work because a set of requirements is available in the person
    you are interested in.                
    
    We have seen romantic love fail many times, our parents, ourselves
    and our friends.  Therefore practical love seems to be the goal
    and if we should get involved in a romantic love...we question it...
    resulting in pulling and tugging between the two lovers.
    
    Who knows what is right.

The following contribution is from a member of our community who
wishes to remain anonymous - Steve



RE: .0

Please don't give up hope. Right now you are probably disillusioned
and hurt.  It's not fair that a loving relationship shoud be torn apart
by petty things, like mind games.  Please remember that we are all human.
Love is full of risks.  To love is to risk being hurt.  Sometimes we
set up defense mechanisms to prevent us from being hurt.   We never
let anyone get too close to us.  But that is not  what living in love
is about.  In order to love, you've got to take risks, break down
barriers, and give your heart.   If there is love, then you can get
beyond the mind games.  Work together.  Communicate.  Strive for honesty. 
A loving relationship is too great a gift to let it go to waste.  "With
love, all things are possible."  

    I want to thank you people who replied to this note, it has made
    me feel much better. It is really nice that there is nice people
    to help you out even if they are unknown to you. When it comes down
    to it friends and good people are really all we need.
                           THANKS ALOT
                            TERRY

    When a little child has been hurt, he will often strike out
    at anyone who is near.  He rails, not so much against the person
    next to him....but at all of those circumstances of life that 
    make him feel betrayed, alone, and frightened.  
    
    In many respects we are all still very much little children.  We 
    strike out in different ways (mind games) against the person who 
    is most able to make us feel betrayed, alone, and frightened.  The 
    person who knows us the best.  The person with whom we are the most 
    vulnerable.
    
    Unconditional love brings the risk of unconditional pain.  It is
    worth the risk.  When the child strikes out we take him in our arms
    and comfort him.  We tell him that we love him even if he does not
    love us.  We make him feel secure and wanted.  As he relaxes, his
    fear goes away, he smiles and hugs us and everything is ok again.
    
    We adults are like two children sometimes, trying to deal with each
    other.  Neither one strong enough or brave enough to risk the hurt 
    to give the comfort.  We really have nothing to lose by opening up to
    each other.  If we succeed we have found a love that is precious and 
    rare by any standards.  If we fail,...we have made our best
    effort... thats all we can expect from ourselves and thats all life
    expect from any one of us.  

    -.1 was right on the nail-head for me.  In addition, sometimes
    the game is a way of screaming for help or attention.  Not a
    real good way, but sometimes we can't do it any other way -
    sometimes we're so messed up inside that that's the only way
    it can come out, and we just need someone to reassure us that
    we're wanted and loved and we're actually not as bad as we think
    we are.
    
    Games can also get to be a habit, and like any habit they're hard
    to break out of.  A little support and time and patience - and
    perhaps a little "tough love" style kicking in the behind - can
    help in these cases.
    
    --Louise

    Being in love with someone has to be one of the most wonderful,
    and sometimes most painful part of life.  Everybody's relationship
    has some "mind games" involved, at one time or another.  Everybody
    gets hurt, because no relationship is ever perfect, even though
    we want it to be.  If you are really in love with that person, you
    will know it is right, and you will probably over look some of the
    "mind" games that he/she will play...because everybody is human,
    and we all make mistakes, even though we don't mean it sometimes..
    hang in there!
    

oh, really?  

I truly believe when you are playing mind games....You certainly know what you
are doing and for what reasons....usually negative feelings.
We are only human?....I don't buy that anymore either.  I create my own reality
and so do you, manipulation is *not* a mistake I can easlily create or forgive.
We have been unresponsible for our actions much too long.
    

    recently i have talked to several people about mind games people
    play with each other...and i am confused, i think, about what a
    mind game really is.
    
    in trying to sort out some of the issues that come up during the
    course of a developing relationship...what role do "mind games"
    play?  are they essential to the normal evolution of a relationship
    between two people?
    
    specifically, if i am attracted to a woman and wish to become closer
    to her...and if there is a mutual attraction of her to me, is there
    any room for games of the mind? it seems to me that they would most
    probably get in the way of normal development.  don't mind games
    inherently mean dishonesty?  aren't they what we do with others
    when we are trying to "impress" or "influence" them towards us?
    aren't they a "means to an end"...a form of manipulation?
    
    tony

    In my eyes there are two kinds of games...mind games are bad...the
    example I can best use to describe a mind game is when people lead
    you to believe something is true and you react because you believe
    them when in fact that there is no truth.
    
    But people will always play games...if a person is interested in
    you and might want to get to know you better they might tease, flirt
    or do any number of things to get your attention.  It is a game
    in the sense it is a strategy to attract.  If a person feigned an
    interest in photography, for instance, to get your attention and you
    later on found out that they had never been interested in photography
    until they met you, you would probably be flattered.
    
    Mind games do not belong in relationships.
    
    Other games can be fun. ;-)
    

>>    If a person feigned an
>>    interest in photography, for instance, to get your attention and you
>>    later on found out that they had never been interested in photography
>>    until they met you, you would probably be flattered.


	 not hardly....
	   
>>    Mind games do not belong in relationships.

	 neither does lying or leading someone to believe something
	 that is not true....no matter how insignificant...
	   
>>    Other games can be fun. ;-)

	 Good games are definately a MUST to keep a relationship
	 going... teasing and flirting being probably being high on
	 that list!  Games are great as long as their intent is
	 good...NOT to hurt someone....Unfortunately some people don't
	 know when to stop and they cross the line....

	 k  

    
    Mind Games:
    
    What they are, simply.  The manipulation of another person or a
    groups beliefs so they match yours. It has other labels depending
    if it is considered desireable or not. Its considered motivation
    when its "good" and intrusive when it clashes with you own beliefs.
    The beliefs can be presented as truth or falsehoods or as fragments
    of either, but the key is they will support anothers beliefs that
    he wishes to become yours.
    
    Now what I've said is my opinion for what value it may have,.  I resent
    people playing mind games with me when they are represented as for
    my own good.  How dare they invade my privacy.
    
    John
    
    

       Mind games can also be the natural desire to protect yourself.
       Once someone has been severly hurt in a relationship they may
       play mind games to see if the other person truely cares for them.
       Wrong perhaps but understandable. Sometimes people play these
       games to sabotage relationships they can't even admit to
       themselves are wrong.

       And sometimes, people may just do it for fun. liesl

    .15 has a good point.  I've observed a lot of situations where the
    game is played on one's self.  This can result in others being hurt
    too.

    i guess i'm not a good strategist.  i hear you saying that mind
    games can be defensive...and the implication is that they may also
    be offensive (perhaps in *both* meanings of that word).  
    
    in what sense is a mind game defensive?  how does one manipulate
    or influence the feelings or opinions of someone else in such a
    manner that it protects themselves?  if you enter into a relationship,
    fearing being hurt, is it a mind game to withhold yourself from
    a certain level of committment or feeling so you are in effect saying
    to the other member of the relationship..."this is as far as i can
    come...don't press me beyond this limit".. or "if you want me to
    come farther than where i am, you must <insert condition here>"?
    is that what is called defensive mind game?  i really don't know.
    
    conversely, is a "good" game one where you titillate the other person's
    appetite for something you have, with the notion that you're gonna
    give it to them anyway...?  
    
    i really do not understand why/how it seems necessary for some to
    insist on playing games....or is it just that they are *calling*
    it playing games.  
    
    i remain confused... (he says, stating the obvious!)
    
    tony

	 I don't quite understand the defensive mind game bit,
	 either...

	 also, another thing we have to consider here is the fact that
	 when someone is hurt by another person, they tend to become
	 defensive... they also tend to become very distrustful...
	 Something I may be doing may be totally misinterpreted by a
	 man that I have hurt.... Take, for example, a man who came to
	 me desperately seeking advice a few months ago... We talked a
	 lot about his relationship...all in strict confidence... we
	 spent a lot of time together...he was hurting and needed a
	 friend very badly... come to find out, even though, when
	 asked about it, he told her that he had simply been seeking
	 advice, she took it as him trying to "play me against her" to
	 see if she would come running back....hence, she insists to
	 this day he was playing severe mind games when in reality she
	 was not..

	 people see what they want to see, hear what they want to
	 hear, and think what they want to think...  a little more
	 trust and a little more honesty during a dispute could solve
	 a lot of these so-called mind game problems....

	 as for "good games", well, I would say YES...DEFINATELY it is
	 necessary to play good games!  Okay...well, you may not call
	 it games.....but anything that "challenges me" is a game...
	 *BUT* with good games...you almost ALWAYS win! but if you
	 lose, you don't get hurt...

	 

	 let me see if I can make an analogy....take for example...Old
	 Maid....a BAD game..you dont know the other person's cards,
	 they can pass you a bad card and "stick" you with it...
	 take for example...chinese checkers...GOOD game...
	 all the cards (so to speak) are on the table...you have the
	 ability to predict the "opponents" next move... there are
	 quite often very little suprises!

	 okay..maybe not the best analogy, but does it kinda make
	 sense? 

    re: kath
    
    How about something a little less complex than chinese checkers....lets
    say Tic-Tac-Toe......If you always pay attention, the worse you
    can get is a draw.
    
    Bill
    

RE: .17

>    in what sense is a mind game defensive?  how does one manipulate
>    or influence the feelings or opinions of someone else in such a
>    manner that it protects themselves?

That's easy. take a situation where a couple has had three dates and
one person feels really attracted to the other. 

Now, most of us tend to abhor rejection. Saying to a person you
like/want/love them with nothing said in return implies rejection, 
since the attracted person has no way of knowing how the other is
feeling. On the one hand he/she agreed to date; on the other, he/she
has said nothing. What should one do? Ahh... a game. 

One can start acting "hard to get" (will the other betray him/herself 
by acting anxiously?). Or, feign a weakness or problem (will the
other jump in to support?). Or, act negatively and/or aggressively 
(if the other shows signs of being hurt, that's a 'good' sign).
These are all 'defensive' games

Some people may say: "Look, honey. We've gone out a couple of times 
and I think I really like you; but you are playing them close to 
your chest. Please talk to me.". But, not too many people do.

-- Ron

    Re .13 (Kathy)
    
    >    If a person feigned an interest in photography, for instance, to
    >get your attention and you later on found out that they had never been
    >interested in photography until they met you, you would probably be
    >flattered. 

    While truly feigning an interest in something to get/keep someone,
    this kind of thing can spark genuine interest.  There have been
    several things that I became interested in because a (potential)
    SO was involved in it.  Many of these have lasted far longer than
    the person that sparked my interest.  I don't see anything wrong
    with that.
    
    If, you genuinely hate the activity, and pretend to be interested
    in it anyway just to get/keep someone's attention, that's pretty
    bad.  Fortunately, I don't see that a relation based on that level
    of dishonesty about feelings could last any length of time.
    
    Elizabeth

    All life is a mind game.  There are good games and there are bad
    games, but there's no such thing as "no games".  Even when you're
    not playing a game, you're playing the game of not playing a game.
    (Sound familiar, Kath?  :-))
    
    It's all in the interpretation.
    
    And there's something to be learned from all of them.
    
    IMHO.
    
    Carol
    

re: last few...

i think what i am hearing is that what some folks might call interaction 
between two individuals is what other folks call mind games...is it just
a matter of semantics?

my scenario...if i am dating a woman...like her and want the relationship
to grow...and if i percieve at least some interest in me (her willingness
to continue dating, for example)...is the fact that i *desire* the growth
in and of itself a game board?  and is my asking her out, or if she cares,
or just ordinary casual or not-so-casual interaction with her all just 
part of some "game strategy"???

if, as ron suggested in .20, i begin to wonder at her non-response to some
statement of my affection *also* part of some strategy?  

am i to think that every action i take, or she might make, is part of some
master plan?  

in his last paragraph (again re: .20) ron says:

>Some people may say: "Look, honey. We've gone out a couple of times 
>and I think I really like you; but you are playing them close to 
>your chest. Please talk to me.". But, not too many people do.

why isn't THAT a game, too? 

it seems to me that if i said (see above) to the lady in question, i am just
stating my feelings in a rather clear and honest way...and asking her to do 
the same.  

i am presently involved with a lady....and we do exactly that.  i find it 
very comfortable, and we are *talking* to each other.  even with our actions.

i think i much prefer that to a game.

tony

game:  A way of amusing oneself; a pastime; a diversion.  A calculated
       action or approach; a scheme; a plan; a challenge.

>>i am presently involved with a lady....and we do exactly that.  i find it 
>>very comfortable, and we are *talking* to each other.  even with our actions.

>>i think i much prefer that to a game.


	 well, that's the definition of a game...  I think its all a
	 matter of schematics....everyone will have a different
	 definition of "game"...I think, though, Tony, what we're
	 saying is a "good game" is what you are considering NOT to be
	 a game...

	 to me, LIFE is a game, because it is always a challenge and
	 you must "try" to win...in a relationship you must "try" to
	 make it work...its a challenge...

	 call it what you will... i call it a game....but to others,
	 they may not...its still the same thing....notice I didn't
	 call it a good "mind" game.... "mind game" to me has a bad
	 conotation...

	 let's not argue semantics....the BAD MIND GAMES are what are
	 the issues...

	 kath

    re - tony
    
    You are playing a good game.  I would call it the "straight-forward
    and honest communication" game.
    
    A "game" might also be defined as "taking a chance".  I don't know
    of any relationships where one doesn't take a chance.  SOMETHING
    unexpected happens, be it good or bad.  (Preferably good.)
    
    IMHO.
    
    Carol
    

    A bit of a tangent. . .
    
    One thing that may help in sorting out "mind games" and understanding
    them better might be to remember that we're working here within
    the context of a particular psychological model, specifically the 
    "game" model of human interaction.  That is, human events are being 
    seen and thought of using a framework or model of game-playing; in 
    essence, we're engaged here in metaphor - a way of describing 
    behavior that lets us think about it and discuss it in a way that's
    meaningful.  
    
    While such a model can be immensely helpful in helping us understand
    behavior, it never hurts to remember that the model itself is not
    the behavior but rather a metaphor.  And metaphors usually have
    limits beyond which their usefulness becomes a matter of diminishing
    returns so, in using (in this case) the game model of behavior,
    it may help some to poke at whether the behavior really *does*
    fit within the context of the model.
    
    In terms of "mind games", it may indeed help to use the model to look
    at various behaviors (i.e. who are the players?  what are the rules?  
    what are the roles?  what are the stakes?  what constitutes winning?  
    losing?)  Among other things, the game model can clarify a situation - 
    like f'rinstance, how one might know that one's playing "the manipulation 
    game" and how one can stop "playing".  
    
    Steve

    
    What exactly is a "mind game"?
    
    A game is surely where two or more people have agreed to "play"
    within a set of rules that may or may not be anything to do with
    day to day reality (whatever that is...).
    
    So unless you've agreed upfront with someone to "play along", and
    agreed to abide by the rules, then it's not a game.
    
    It could be dangerous to assume that another person has the same
    feelings and reactions (or other "mind-stuff")to a situation or 
    stimulus as you do. 
    And even if they feel the same, they may not produce the same behaviours
    as a result of that feeling as you do. 
    They may not be playing "games", rather just being themselves, and 
    unaware that they're breaking rules that they had never agreed to.
                                  
    
    

"A game is surely where two or more people have agreed to "play""

Hardly, many times one person is not aware of being manipulated, or that it is a
game. 

I feel that there is a distinction between "fake" games, like playing hard to
get, where the real issues at stake are hidden, and human interactions in
relationships which can be modeled as games.  The test between the two is how
well the apparent issues match the real issues.

Jim. 

RE: .27

>    What exactly is a "mind game"?

Ok, I see we do have a semantics problem. In my book, a 'mind game'
has very little to do with any 'game', including Chinese checkers. 

In a mind game, a player expresses a lie (either verbally or through
actions), where BOTH the data AND the motivation are false. 

For example, a kid overtly leaves the room, then coughs loudly
outside. Data lie: he isn't coming down with a cold. Motivation lie:
he in fact does want mother to hear the cough. The whole thing has
nothing to do with the kid's health, he's simply trying to draw
mother's attention, or, perhaps, even punish her. 

Another mind game is playing hard to get. Data lie: the person isn't
actually busy Saturday night. Motivation lie: the person is trying
to display a vantage stance. In reality, the person actually has low
self esteem. 

It takes two to Tango, but it takes only one player to initiate a
head game. The other person (the 'playee', if you will), can easily
avoid the game, provided they have correctly diagnosed the player's
moves as a mind game. At times, that's not easy; for all the playee
knows, the player could be telling/acting the truth... 

The playee can also choose to 'swallow the bait' and participate.
For instance, mother could grab junior and pour half a gallon of
some very bitter medication down his throat; or, she could lavish
much more attention on him, to alleviate his inner fears. Whatever
is appropriate. 

I have already expressed my opinion that many mind games are
defensive in nature. I'll go further than that and state (my
opinion) that mind games are motivated by vulnerability. Genuinely
self assured people have no use for mind games. 

In the ancient sub-culture I come from, girls 'gave' sex' while guys
'wanted' it. Girls 'wanted' marriage, while guys 'fell for it'. In
that environment, dating involved quite a bit of 'mind gaming'. A
guy that got this whole thing sorted out (and the result of my own
effort is the version above), usually wound up on top of the
situation (no pun intended). 

-- Ron