Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    
    
    I recently got out of a six year relationship with a man I supported
    for quite a while.  Turns out he just isn't capable of owning his
    financial difficulties and expects people to help him out.  The times
    I would get angry with him were always met with a response from him
    of "well you are doing it for US".  Looking at it now I realize I
    was only doing it for him because in the end it did not benefit
    me in any manner.  In fact it hurt me financially.
    
    From your note it seems she is ambivalent about having to help you
    out financially.  I wouldn't allow myself to do it again.  I would
    suggest not allowing yourself to get into this same type of a
    situation.  If you find you can't live without her then make the
    marriage committment.  Otherwise, live on your own.

    Well, from the comments made about the familey, limited as they were, 
    I wonder how much "upbringing" plays into it?  Traditionally, the male
    is expected to carry the financial load.  And if raised in such an 
    environment it's quiet possible that she has the same ideas ingrained
    into her.  I recommend sitting down and discussing it with her. 
    Explain what you did, she may have simply been 'expecting' it and not 
    realized that it was actually a sacrifice on your part.  If she's a 
    rational individual, she'll realize that she has let upbringing mix
    into reality with a dash of fantasy and change her way of thoughts.  
    IF however, she isn't willing to do so, then you have to ask yourself 
    about the future prospects of a relationship with someone who can't 
    face up to "the way things are" as compared to "what one expects as a
    given way of life".    6 months isn't a long time to go without but, 
    it isn't really a question of time.  It's a question of values.  
    
    Skip

    I guess being a cat lover the first thing that struck me was your
    reaction to her 10 cats.
    
    It seems to me that you expected her to "get rid of them" (God, how I
    HATE that term) or most of them because you refused to live with them. 
    I call that selfish.  If two people love one another and want to merge
    their lifestyles, I don't think it is fair for one to expect the other
    to give up something that is obviously very important to them.  If I
    had 10 cats and fell in love with a man who expected me to make the
    numbers more manageable for HIM, I would give him the old boot to the
    butt and out the door.  But, that is just me.  I could never truely
    love somebody that didn't love cats as much as I do.
    
    Maybe the part about the cats colored how I viewed the rest of your
    note.  I just saw it as a big expectation on your part and feel she is
    partly justified in her actions toward the financial aspect of things. 
    Perhaps there is some resentment building from the cats that is
    manifesting in other ways?
    
    

    I expect this will open a massive feline rat hole...but ANYONE who
    expects their SO to live with ten cats....well their elevator
    simply does not go all the way to the top!  One...even two..but
    ten!!  My God that is very childish and terminally immature.  I say
    this very confusing relationship has nowhere to go be down.
    
    Cat owner....but with a full deck.

re. 1,    

I tend to think that I am responsible for my own problems financially and I am
more than willing to wait it out to prove the point. In my previous life, I put
my ex through University and thought nothing of it. It was just something I
would do for my mate, and yes it was two years later before we married.

From your note I gather that you were used more than being appreciated for what
you had done for your mate. This happens and when your involved with someone,
the saying love is blind seems so true.

I never thought of it all as being bailed out, until it came up in that context
in our conversations. Anyway, it has made me think twice about the future and by
the way, there are plans to tie the knot once the past lives have been severed
by the court. 
   
re: .2,

Interesting that you should mention upbringing, her father has always been the
bread winner. He expects that it would be the same in our case. But in today's
world, both mates are the bread winners if they both work and share the
expenses. It costs so much to keep a roof over your head now a days that unless
both are working, it hard to do on just one salary.

We are going to talk about all this further tonight, and maybe your right, I
should present my point of view as I laid it out in the base note.

re: .3,

You could be right about may be this has a part in what is going on here. I
don't dislike cats, I had two my self for most of my life until about 2 years
ago when my ex wanted them as part of the deal.

But be realistic, 10 cats in 1200 sq feet, cat fur, cat barf, mice carcasses and
furniture that looks like world war III occurred on the furniture, that is
totally insane. At least I am being honest with my SO, I won't live with 10 cats
and she knows the options here, it is me or them. By hiding the fact is only
deceit on my part.

I am starting to agree with .4, this will become a rat hole and as such not to
muddy the waters unless it relates to base note, another new note should be
started to hash this one out.

    .4:  I agree that 10 cats is a lot!  I have half that many and although
    my husband would rather have 0, he puts up with it for me.  But, I
    don't expect him to carry the financial burden or other related
    responsibilities for any of them.  That is my arena, since I wanted
    them in the first place.
    
    Anyway, you are right, this could open up a rathole.  I just wanted to
    point out that to you and I, 10 cats might sound like a lot but to
    other folks, it is a very workable number!  I have friends who breed
    cats that have that many and more, and know of others who can't seem
    to say no when yet another stray shows up at the door.
    
    Now back to our regularly scheduled topic :^)
    
    -Roberta
    

I think it's perfectly understandable that you're BOTH hyper-sensitive
about money matters: you've just been divorced! A.K.A. reamed! You're
broke! She just received a nice check, but the divorce has just 
written in large fiery letters across her forehead:
        
                    RELATIONSHIPS FAIL!

Your joint concerns are unfortunate, because they get in the way, but
hardly surprising and certainly not an indictment of anyone's
character. Let's do something to get past it.

I'm a big advocate of shared responsibility for finances. There's a
long string somewhere in MENNOTES on this topic. Mostly this is
applying the sense of the "rules of fair division" they taught us in 
graduate school, which was a bit like "Microeconomics Goes to 
Sensitivity Training." So with that don't-take-this-too-seriously 
qualification, here's some free advice ("Worth every cent", Steve 
Lionel observes).

She has $70,000. She can afford to extend you credit. Move into an 
apartment together and accrue debt at the rate of RENT/2 per month. If 
it's a $800/month apartment and it takes you six months to get to 
where you can pitch in your half, then you'll owe her $2400. Big deal.
If you can throw in $200 starting six month later, you'll be even a 
year after that. In the larger context, this is a trivial expense.

You might find that it helps to make the loan formal. Set an interest 
rate. Set a date for payments to start, and the size of the payments. 
Sign it. You might feel that this shouldn't be necessary. IMO, what's 
necessary is irrelevant. You're both divorce casualties and it takes 
time to recover. Don't let anything as stupid as money get in the way. 
Let money be business, and if a formal contract reassures her, do it.

You should charge for your work on the apartment! First, figure out 
what your imputed rent should be, starting low (it was a wreck) and 
going up (as you improved it) to present market value. Say your half
of the rent would have been $1000. Second, what was the value of the
work you did? Pick a wage for electrical/plumbing ($32? $40?) and the
other kinds of work; estimate how many hours of work of each kind; and
multiply it out. Do a discount for not paying taxes (31%?). Maybe the
total is $3000? 

Now SOMEBODY owes you $2000 ($3000 in labor less $1000 in rent). Too 
bad it's the Heavy Bladed Weapon of War (I hate the expression you 
used). I suggest that you have your SO present the bill. Write up the 
invoice. Your SO goes to the HBWoW: "Hi, Mom, nice apron! Say, here's 
the invoice for all the work on the apartment, with the rent deducted. 
I thought it was fair so I paid him. When can you give me the money?"

If nothing else, you have a precise basis for pointing out to your SO 
that you have already extended considerable credit for the sake of the 
relationship.

    re.4
    Well said!
    
    re.3
    How would you treat someone that was allergic to animal dander to
    the point that being around the animals(lets not restrict this to cats)
    was a health risk? I love animals but there's a limit to what one can
    reasonably expect of another person. I think pet owners can be very
    offensive at times when they impose their pets on others feeling that
    *everyone* must love them as they do.
    
    BTW-before you load up to come shootin' please note that I share my
    abode with two dogs(children if you please) that I make dog-gone(pardon
    the pun) sure don't bother my guests. I love them both but if a truely
    important SO came along in my life that coulden't tolerate their
    presence I would have to find them another home.
    
    -j
    

    RE: -1
    
    I guess we are different people then.  When I was dating, one of the
    pre-requisities, so to speak, for a long-term relationship was an
    intense love for animals.  Maybe that narrowed down my choices but it
    was of great importance to me.  My husband loves animals.  His reasons
    for not wanting them right away were due to the financial expense of
    owning them, which is why I agreed to absorb all costs and
    responsibilities.  Perhaps I wasn't very clear in stating that in my
    previous response.
    
    While I mentioned that my husband wanted 0 cats, he still loves them as
    much as I do and on several occassions has offered money from his
    personal account for vet bills or willingly helped out with the cat
    chores if I was away.  What attracted me to him was the fact that he
    took the attitude, "love me, love my cats."  Sure we sometimes argue
    about them but he has never asked me to cut back the numbers to make
    his life more comfortable.  I do, however, refrain from adding more (I
    would like to) because it would not be fair to him.  I should also note
    that the cats are a hobby for me (I have purebred cats which are
    occasionally shown) so IMHO, my elevator does go all the way to the
    top.
    
    In answer to your question about how I would treat someone with
    allergies.  Simple -- I would not get involved with that person (SO
    type).  Yes, us pet owners can be very eccentric at times but I have
    seen that extended to parents of human children as well.  When folks
    come over to visit who do not like cats I won't put the cats in another
    room to accomodate them.  As you said about your dogs, the cats are my
    children, and I would not expect a parent to lock up their kids if I
    were a guest in their home.  As for allergies with people visiting,
    this hasn't happened yet, but I would fathom that someone with severe
    allergies would either make arrangements to meet off the premises or
    invite us to their house instead.  One of the reasons I am not in a
    rush to have children of the human variety is because if allergies to
    animal dander were a problem it would be very hard to give up the cats.
    
    The only reason I posted this reply is to address the previous noter's
    questions.  I thought we had agreed not to go down a rathole with this,
    as we all have different opinions as well as limits to what we can and
    cannot handle.  I stated that I would not get involved with someone who
    did not like cats.  Other people would, and would give up their cats for
    the other person.  The only point I was trying to make in my reply of
    .3 is that perhaps .0's request of limiting the present number of cats
    was building some resentment in his SO, and it was manifesting in the
    financial affairs.
    
    Let's just agree to disagree and move on.
    
    --Roberta
    

    I think it is very important to not make serious commitments with
    with another until at least 2 years after a divorce.  This woman
    is probably thinking twice before spendng her mondy on emotional
    reasons.  She may feel burned by her first marriage.
    
    You may need time to just reflect.  Concentrate on yourself and
    have some fun.  yu've just been through, which isn't over quite
    yet divorce, and you don't need to make such serious decisions regrding
    the rest of your life.  Make your lifestyle as easy as possible
    right now.  Apparently, you spent a long time in counseling for
    your previous marriage.  You stuck it out.  Your ex was thinking
    of herself.  Now it's time for you to think of yourself for awhle
    and not another's.  If yu don't want cats or Spam for dinner for
    that matter, then don't.  Enjoy your company for what it is.  A
    hand during the storm.
    
    cindy

re: .9,

So I am fueling the rat hole, what can I say. The one thing that I don't
understand about pet owners who must have X number of cats, is they put them
above another human being they say they love very much. You may not agree, but
.4 for is right, the elevator does not go to the top floor for these people.

Limiting your choice of a mate because of a pet, only proves .4 is correct. This
is not rational thinking IMHO.

Getting back to at least one of the issues at hand.....

After some discussion with my SO, the pets are an issue, we are both firm with
our positions at the moment. I won't and will not live with more than two cats
and my SO will reduce the number, but insists that I put up with the remaninder
(this could mean 2-8 cats). This may be our down fall, but sometimes love is not
enough and this is one case that it is not enough.

John

re: .10,

>    I think it is very important to not make serious commitments with
>    with another until at least 2 years after a divorce.  This woman
>    is probably thinking twice before spendng her mondy on emotional
>    reasons.  She may feel burned by her first marriage.
>
I hear what your saying, but I believe the current issues comes down to two
things, cats and finances. During our recent discussion, the real number one
problem is the cats, finances second. She won't move in with me (plus two cats)
where I am, because of the cats, she won't move out of the hell hole she lives
in, because of the cats (if you knew her parents, you would know what I mean,
just take my word for it). At the risk of fueling further bashing, I just hate
being put below a cat in the pecking order of life. In fact, she has even put
them above her self and as .4 stated, the elevator just does not go all the way
to the top. I don't hate cats, but two is reasonable, more is not. If her pets
determine what she does with her life then, we should just quit while we are
ahead and just keep the friendship.

Believe it or not, the finances are now just a minor issue, when it comes to the
bottom line.

Anyway, thanks for the input, I have got some thinking to do here.......

John

    
     .3,   I am a cat lover, but having 10 cats is a bit EXTREME !
    
        I too would have a problem with 10 cats around.  Maybe they
    can compromise and keep her favorites, and he can help in finding
    a home for the rest !!!
    
    Jack
    

    I am a cat lover but I find that if there are more than two cats it
    becomes too much. Ten cats I think is not with in the bounds of reason,
    unless you have something like a farm where they can work keeping down
    the pests.

    I do know of one woman who has about 12 cats in a small house. But she
    is mentally unbalanced.

    Jamie.

    I am a cat lover myself.  I have four.... Think my elevator is
    definetly stuck!  My boyfriend calls me "cat woman" but I prefer to
    think of myself as "the head cat".... Ten would definetely be
    frightening!  I hate using the can opener in my house because it's a
    signal to the gang to attack in the kitchen.... My little kid asked if
    we could trade the four cats in for one dog.... 
    
    My advice to you is that you, not being a cat person, and who could
    live without them, are being generous in agreeing to the two.  
    
    Good luck to you both!
    
    

    I think it is unfair to make judgements about folks who want to live
    with multiple pets.  Maybe in your opinion their elevator doesn't go
    all the way to the top but their opinion of you is probably the same.
    
    There are PLENTY of people in this world who love animals and wouldn't
    mind living with a housefull.  If my husband and I owned a house (we
    own a townhouse), we would have a dog or two, in addition to the cats. 
    While I still hold firm in saying that *for me* 10 cats is a bit
    extreme, I don't condone those folks who own 10 or more, *as long as*
    they have the accommodations for them, spay/neuter them, and take good
    care of them.  In a world where pets, especially cats and kittens, are
    treated like disposable trash, I admire anyone who has the kindness,
    patience, perseverence, and love to dedicate to more than 2.
    
    Your SO has expressed some resentment where the cats are concerned. 
    Even if she does end up placing 8 of them to make room for you in her
    life, my feeling is the resentment will continue to fester and manifest
    in other problem areas of your relationship, even though they have
    nothing to do with the cats.  It's a situation that can only get
    worse, not better, if placing the cats is something she is doing for
    your happiness only.
    
    If compromising for an SO means sacrificing something you enjoy and
    makes you happy, then to me, it isn't a fair compromise.  .0's SO
    cannot live with just 2 cats by the sound of things, and if the number
    of felines are always going to be a bone of contention then why not 
    look for someone else who's thoughts and viewpoints align with your own.
    
    
    -Roberta
    

    My sister has four cats and my mother has three (used to have a
    dog as well). Both still have all of their faculties. The cats
    seem to be out of the way most of the time and only congregate at
    meal times. I think four is fine, but I would say that more than
    that would be a bit much. When I get a decent place of my own I
    shall get a couple of scatty catties myself.
    
    
    Jerome.

    I think the assertation was the fact that someone could profess love
    and need, yet refuse to compromise the number of cats to fullfil that
    need.
    
    Laurie.

    John,
    Did you know of her cat fondness before you grew so fond of her.
     There was something I read a long time ago, in a Catholic book
    for teens, "never date a person you wouldn't want to marry" you
    may get hooked.  I'm not sure how much I agree with this, but it
    does have some merit.  I believe "kango" does have a good point
    in knowing yourself well enough to rule out incompatible partners.
    
    This "cat issue" may give you a example of the two of you being
    able to negotiate on other matters as well.  Maybe you guys need
    a house and another sort of house, her little club house, where
    she have all her cats and her space without interfering with yours.
     Just as if you had a "shop" where it was your own.  I don't think
    she'd appreciate your bringing in all kinds of smelly hobbie parts
    and stuff into the house.

    Instead of arguing about how many cats is considered "sane", I thought
    I would enter a note on how to live with multiple cats without going
    insane.
    
    First of all, any self-professed cat lover has most likely visited a
    cat show.  At these shows are vendors who sell elaborate pieces of cat
    furniture, which us self-professed cat lovers will pay exhorbanant
    prices for :^) !!  Our house contains two, one purchased at a cat show
    that resides in the bedroom (huge pieces of tree bark with platforms,
    tunnels, and a tree house fashioned onto them); the other my husband
    built which is located in the living room in front of the sliding glass
    door.  This one has sisal rope attached to the legs which cats love to
    scratch their claws on.  This also keeps them off the human furniture,
    which, by the way, is still in like-new condition after 3 years of
    ownership.  Cat furniture does not have to look ugly; in fact, it is
    the first thing folks compliment us on upon arriving at the house.  It
    is also color-coordinated with our own furniture, another added plus.
    
    Litterboxes are kept in the basement (not everyone is lucky enough to
    have a basement I realize) so there are no cat smells lurking about. 
    Cats are brushed daily and bathed regularly to reduce shedding.  I keep
    up with the vacuuming and dusting so "cat hair everywhere" is not a
    concern.
    
    Just like with children, a little discipline goes a long way.  You CAN
    teach a cat that certain places are forbidden.  A few sprays from a
    plant mister filled with water and they soon learn to keep off
    <whatever is forbidden>.  For primarily outdoor cats, how about
    investing in or building a small house the cats can call their own. 
    Don't laugh.  For a mere $50, my husband is doing just this for our 2
    indoor/outdoor cats.  Equipped with food, water, and a few cat beds,
    this should help us to consume heat in the "real" house this winter
    (because otherwise we stand by the slider acting as personal doormen to
    the cats all evening).  There *are* ways your girlfriend can make
    things easier on you in regards to the cats so you don't feel equally
    as resentful in living with them as she does in giving them away.
    
    Owning multiple cats does not mean sacrificing a nice home of your own. 
    Nor does it mean putting up with excessive cat hair and litterbox
    odors.  All it takes is a little ingenuity and a lot of effort.  If
    your SO is willing to put forth this effort, it might make your life
    with the cats easier to handle.
    
    -Roberta
    

re: .22,

Cindy,

>    Did you know of her cat fondness before you grew so fond of her.

This has a difficult answer, but here goes. Yes I was aware of the cats, but
they were not with us for the first 6 months or so. Her ex was suppose to
keep them and she was going to pick out just two or three of her favorites. What
happened  is the ex just dumped the lot off and left. Initially they were all
out side and so I put in a cat door into the laundry area to give them a warm
place to go when it gets cold out. This is separate from the rest of the place
and had lots of cozy blankets, baskets, etc... for them to curl up in. During
the day time only two were allowed in at anyone time to keep the fur and so
forth under control (she also suffers from asthma, another reason to keep them
out). At night, they were to remain out side and had, as I mentioned, a warm
place to sleep. Since the place was out in the sticks, this worked out OK. In
time the place finally ended up over run by day and night even though we had an
agreement. This of course resulted in several discussions and reminders of our
agreement. I guess this made having to stay in the city during the week easier
to live with so not to put up with all the fur. The rest is history.......

This makes me wonder about people with asthma, all this fur is not good for it,
yet the people I know who have asthma, all have 3 or more cats. If it's not bad
enough to have breathing problems and aggravate it more.

    I have 4 cats and I assure you, my elevator goes all the way to the
    top.  :-)
    
    In the past I have given up cats for an SO.  I won't do it again.  When
    I do that I'm giving up a part of who I am, a part of my life that is
    important to me.  Any man I date is questioned on how he feels about
    cats and if he is allergic to them.  Like Susan said, love me, love my
    cats.  They are a part of who I am and what makes my life more
    enjoyable.  I won't part with them.
    
    Karen

    Re:  .25  
    
    yes, but would you take 3 more???  
    
    this is not totally a joke, as I have 7 cats, all outside due to my
    husband's intolerance of litter box odors and cats underfoot.  It
    presents a problem to me because I consider myself humane.  I cannot
    dump them, or euthanaze them, what I'm left is finding homes or
    building a protective shelter.  I have opted for the latter.  It seems
    there are options to this couple's dilemma--they just have to choose
    one and choice is never easy.
    
    Betsy

    I havn't been in for a bit, and don't know if this has been stated,
    I may even be running down a rat hole that was stopped.  Oh well, 
    
    I want to point out a couple of things however.  First of all, the 
    notes stated that she is willing to get rid of most of the cats.
    I want to point out a couple things about that.  When she took on the 
    excessive (in my opinion) number of cats she took on the responsibility 
    of caring for them.  She may even consider it a moral obligation to 
    care for them.  This means she may feel that it would be morally wrong 
    for her to just drop the cats off at a shelter, where she would not
    necessarily know what became of them.  She may feel it's her obligation 
    both in the way of responsibility, and morally, to find good homes for 
    these animals.  Somehow the comment of putting the base noter over 
    the cats when it comes to love, doesn't sound resonable.  I have a
    strong sense of responsibility and morals.  I don't compromise them...
    and they've made me do some things I would rather not have done in the 
    past.  Including appearing to place certain goals, people, and animals 
    above and beyond loved ones.  This isn't the truth of the matter, it's
    just that if I'm going to have morals, then I have to stand by them.
    
    This could be the same type of situation for her.  She feels a strong 
    moral obligation to and responsibility for these animals.  Rather then 
    compromise them, she would rather remain in her situation until she has 
    fulfilled her obligations and responsibilities to them.  
    
    I could be wrong.  (I have been in the past) but in my opionion, if
    this is the case, then I think rather then saying she's putting the
    love of these animals over the love of the base-noter.  She should be 
    applauded for realizing her obligations and responsibilities and
    standing by them, even though they will cost her something of higher
    value in the long run.
    
    
    Of course, not knowing her, this is all speculation and assumption.  A
    lot of based on the type of person I am not the type of person she is.  
    Still, it's worth considereing i think.
    
    IMHO
    
    Skip

    re.27
    Good point Skip.
    
    -j

.27>    This could be the same type of situation for her.  She feels a strong 
.27>    moral obligation to and responsibility for these animals.  Rather then 
.27>    compromise them, she would rather remain in her situation until she has 
.27>    fulfilled her obligations and responsibilities to them.  
.27>    

Hi Skip,

I believe you have likely hit the nail on the head here. I would not my self
expect them to be shipped off to the shelter to meet their demise if a home was
not found. The intent was to find alternate homes for them which has been tried
on a couple of occasions, so far no luck.

Needless to say, we both have a good understanding of our positions now, I will
tolerate 2 or 3 and no more and on the other hand she agrees 10 is too much but
will not just abandon them unless to good homes. I have no problem with her
position and more than agree, good homes are the only solution and will not have
them snuffed in a shelter.

So, she will live where she is and I will be in my own place in the new year and
will be taking one of the furry critters of my choice. At that point weekends
will be at my place for the most part. What happens after that, time will tell.

John

    re .25, well said.  I feel exactly the same way about my cats.
    I have 5 - 4 indoor and 1 indoor/outdoor.
    
    Some people have commented that they can't understand why anyone would
    appear to put a pet above another person, especially someone they claim
    to love.  My answer to that is that my Siamese, Jade, has been with me
    longer than any of the men I've ever been involved with.  She's been
    with me for 13 1/2 yrs., and lived with me with 3 different men.  She's
    seen'em come and she's seen'em go and I'm damn glad I never gave her up
    for any of them.  (Although, the last one was quite fond of her.)
    
    If I seem a little loony at times, I blame it more on the people I have
    to deal with in my life, not the cats!
    
    Lorna