Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    It's quite possible that he does not care for you,
    as a person, but that he still wants to continue with
    what is a comfortable situation for him.
    
    In my past, I have been in a relationship of the sort
    outlined above.  I had a great reluctance to lie about my
    feelings for the woman involved combined with the certain
    knowledge that if I told her the truth I'd loose the
    relationship.
    
 			-John Bishop

    Ah, Jaycee, I know this all too well, as I have been on the receiving
    end more often than I would like (and am trying to cope with this
    right now).  It sucks big time, doesn't it?  You simply _can't_
    figure out what's going on.  Could it be: 
    
    1) He's not in love, knows he's not _going_ to fall in love, and
    is trying to break it to us gently (coward!  if you're going to
    hurt me, then _face_ it and get it _done_ with, fer cryin out loud);
    
    2) He's not in love, knows he's not _going_ to fall in love, but
    would like us to serve as a bed-warmer until he meets his perfect
    person (slimeball);
    
    3) He's not in love, but may very well fall in love and is scared
    of allowing himself to need us that much (?!? it happens, but what
    do you _say_? what do you _do_?!?);
    
    4) He's falling (or has fallen) in love and is scared silly that
    he needs us more than we need him (?!? see #3...);
    
    5) He's in love but the rest of his life is coming apart, he doesn't
    know _why_ it's falling apart, he suspects the falling apart may
    have something to do with that love, and so needs time out to put
    his life back together (can't I _help_?  why do you have to put
    your life together _alone_?  why must you punish _me_?);
    
    6) He's in love, but for some reason unrelated to you, he MUST get
    away from you (?!? huh?!?  since when does loving someone mean you
    want to be nowhere near them?!?);
    
    or 
    7) He loves you but feels out of control and wants to gain the upper
    hand in the relationship -- one way of getting _everything_ to happen
    _his_ way is by rejecting you every time you do something he didn't
    think of first (!%# sinister little #$$%*(@ !!  even if it is
    subconscious, how can I talk to you about this without accusing
    you?)
    
    How I have been coping in the latest round: focussing on myself,
    doing just about _anything_ so I don't think about him, _not_
    telephoning, having regular crying fits and general temper tantrums,
    thinking about whether or not to start seeing someone else (stomach
    just flip-flopped again).
    
    Focussing on myself works very well, but is hard to do full-time,
    even when I am not emotionally involved.  The other stuff happens
    when I slip up.
    
    *heavy*sigh*
    
    I hope things get better for you (and me too!).
    
    Lee

    
    
    I'd say - give him space for awhile.
    And take it slow.  If he really cares for you, during that time
    away from you, he'll realize how much he needs and misses you.
    
    Pat
    

    
    Jaycee,
    
    I had a similar experience back in '84/'85.  I was heavily involved
    with another Deccie.
    
    Skip and I were total opposites, but our differences complemented
    each other.  Skip wasn't much for expressing his feelings in words,
    but I knew how he felt just by looking at him.  We seemed to bring
    about this glow in each other.  It was great!  Some people just
    do not know how to put what they feel into words.  I finally got 
    the "I Love You" I was looking for - the night before he committed
    suicide.  
    
    Give it some time, Jaycee.  You said his actions show you how much 
    he cares.  When he feels comfortable with his own feelings, I'm
    sure he'll tell you.

    Beckie

    
    
    re. 4
    
    What a horrible experience for you.  
    
    Re.3
    
    I agree. Let him miss you a little. There are many reasons
    he may be holding back on you.  If it is really a problem with
    you, then tell him that.  Yes you may risk loosing him, but
    you don't seem satisfied now.  If he isn't giving you what you
    want, find someone who will.  Don't stand around waiting for
    him to tell you he loves you.  Some people are just not capable
    of uttering these words.  Tell him how you feel.  If he doesn't
    respond, look for someone else.  I realize that sounds easier
    to say than to do, but you don't want to find yourself totally
    in love with him and then realize he isn't the man for you.
    It's much harder to leave at that point.

    
    
    One of my friends had the same problem that you had, hers was a
    little worse.  But anyhow, has he been hurt before?  Some guys,
    as well as girls clam up when it comes to telling someone that they
    care for them because they've told someone before and then got the
    shaft.  Maybe he's just scared of getting hurt again and like what
    the other repliers have said, he just might need someone time.
    If he's worth the time then wait, if you feel like he isn't then
    move on to someone else who can find the time to tell you how much
    he cares and how special you are and especially mean the words he
    says.
    
    
    Best of luck to you and I hope everything works out for the best.
    Chris
    

	He may be getting pressure from his friends to spend some
	time with them once and a while, but I can not see any reason
	why he is not able to tell you how he feels about you.  It 
	doesn't take a PHD to find the words "I really like you a lot",
	or something to that affect.  After four months he should have
	some type of clue as to how he feels about you.  Get him
	to open up or loose him.


	Dave

    I guess the best way to do this is to reply to the answers I've
    gotten so far...but please, please don't stop with your input...it
    really does help, and maybe by the time this discussion is over,
    I'll understand it better...
    
    Now...
    
    re - 1 - I think that he does care for me...but why, if he didn't
    like me as a person, would he want to keep me around?
    
    2 - Thanks Lee...I think that Door # 3/4 is the answer, but I still
    don't understand it...focusing on myself should help...thanks for
    the advice...I appreciate it!
    
    3 - Giving him space....and taking it slow...If I go any slower,
    I'm going to be in the reverse mode...I am trying too though, so
    we will have to see...Is this anything like if I give him enough
    rope, he'll hang himself?
    
    4 - Beckie - I don't know what to say to you.  I am so sorry about
    what happened, and sorrier that my note brought it all back for
    you.  I appreciate that you shared this with me (and the rest).
     It must have taken quite a bit, and I'd be very proud of myself
    if I were you to get though it to the point where it can be discussed.
    I guess that after what you told me, I may never ask for how he
    feels again...
    
    7 - I don't think his friends are giving him any pressure...I think
    he's giving himself pressure...he thinks that just because I want
    to spend time with him that I want to get married...I do want to
    get married, but I'm not even sure if he's the one...I'm just trying
    to give the relationship a chance to grow to see if that is the
    case. And you are right, Dave, It doesn't take a PHD to have him
    say it...his actions DO speak louder than his words, but I need
    to hear the words sometimes.
    
    Thanks to the rest for your replies...I think that I'll get through
    this without more than one night of soppy pillows, and smashed glasses.
    Please don't stop replying though....I'm hoping that someone will
    just "hit the nail on the head" with a response that will make my
    day.
    
    JayCee
    
    PS - You should all know that this man has not been hurt before...he's
    31 years old, and although he dated a little though college (he
    went to an all boys Prep school for high school), I'm his first
    real "girlfriend"...if I can be so presumptuious (sp?) as to call
    myself that.  He's a systems engineer, and spent most of his free
    time in the computer lab in Buffalo...god help me!  ;-)
    

    Hi, JayCee.  Is it possible that your boyfriend really likes you
    a lot, enjoys those Sunday mornings in bed (not to mention the Saturday
    nights! ;^) but is not in love with you?  And may never be?
    
    I know it hurts to think about such a possibility, but it is real
    life.  I believe (from personal experiences and from talks with
    other single people) that men who get involved in monogamous sexual
    relationships do not have to "be in love" (whatever THAT is) with
    their female partner.  It is enough that they Like her, Enjoy her
    company, Get along with her, etc. etc.  She, on the other hand,
    believes that they should "be in love."  (Note that I am not saying
    she Feels that way.  There's a difference.)               
                                                              
    I learned from Marriage Encounter (10 years before my divorce) that
    "Love is a Decision."  It isn't something that automatically appears
    just because a couple have been dating, or having sex, or living   
    together, or ??? for x number of months/years.  It is something    
    that happens every minute of every day.  He is making a "commitment"
    in just wanting to be with you, spend weekends with you.  If it   
    is "working," then is there something more you are looking for that
    you are willing to risk your relationship with him to get?
    
    Maybe it's Communication Time again.
    
    Hope it goes well for you.
    
    Jack     

    I agree with Jack Wilson completely.  This sounds identical to a
    relationship I was in for several *years*.
    
    We were very comfortable with each other, got along very well, etc.,
    but I didn't love her and definitely knew that we were never going to
    get married.  It was both our faults that we didn't break up sooner.  I
    didn't because I liked her company, she became my best friend, and we
    had a lot of fun going on day and weekend trips.  She didn't, I think,
    because she hoped that something would come of it.  Even though I had
    said that nothing would.  And, like your boyfriend, I never said "I
    love you", took almost two years before I referred to her as "my
    girlfriend", and almost never even said "I like you" for fear it would
    be misinterpreted.
    
    In retrospect, I screwed up in a lot of ways with this one.  My advice
    to you -- give it another two months.  If he's so uncomfortable
    refering to you as his "girlfriend" (a nit, I know) then something
    isn't right here.  You probably are dealing with someone who is
    emotionally immature and if he doesn't change within a few more months,
    I'd wager a guess that he probably won't.  Especially if you are really
    his "first girlfriend."  If you let it go on and on and on, then
    both of you will be hurt.  You probably more than him because of
    the time and emotional investment.
    
    /Jim

    Perhaps your friend likes you too much to hurt you by saying "I
    like you, but i don't love you, i will never do".
    
    Perhaps your friend is afraid by what you expect from your
    relationship, or what you *seems* to expect...
    
    It's not obvious to understand other's feelings, goals, etc...

    I had this problem with a girlfriend; i knew what i wanted, but
    was a little afraid by what she seems to be expecting. Actually,
    i was wrong, and  i think it's a matter of communication;
    
    If you don't understand someone, tell him about that. Tell him that
    it's important for you, that you must know his feelings...
    
    Anyway, be careful, don't *want*, don't *demand*, try to help him
    to be quiet in his head, and with you: A problem of communication is
    resolved by using other'way of thinking...
    
    Keep cool, and speak with him, try to see his point of view...
    
    Arnaud.

    I apologize for my english'writing, so bad... :-(

    
    Jaycee,
    
    I could have read your note wrong, but it feels to me that it's
    not commitment as such that you're after right now... 
    You seem to be more wanting to develope an important facet of the 
    relationship you have i.e.two-way communication about feelings. 
    This in turn may lead to the flowering of the relationship to the 
    point where commitment comes in.......... 
                                 
    Maybe if you can tread softly and be gentle with this man he'll
    be comfortable enough to talk about "big" feelings he has around
    other, non-relationship areas (his family? politics? his past?).
    Once he has been open with you on some things he feels strongly
    about and knows that you haven't abused that openness, maybe you
    could move the topics nearer home.......
    
    Good luck
    
    Abigail
    

    
    	I like .12's reply...
    
    Some people, just have a hard time with intimacy. And there's two
    kinds, physical and emotional. People scream about how one shouldnt
    be without the other! Evidence abounds showing they can be completely
    independant things. There's 4 states then; None, Both, and one without
    the other X 2.
    
    It's quite concievable that someone can share your pillow, yet "back
    off" as soon as they find things are getting _too close_ emotionally.
    That one responds in this way does not make them a defective person,
    rather, they merely have never learned how to "do it"! They clam
    up because they are actually treading into unexplored (certainly
    unfamiliar) territory. People rarely accept this possibility.
    
    The all boys prep school and late night grad work in Buffalo (Gee,
    I'm 31 and went to SUNYAB - wonder if I know him?) tells me he must
    have LOTS of experience talking to girls! I suspect deeper traits
    of character from the Boys school thing - why would anyone send
    their kid to a quasi_military institution, where men are men, and
    learn how to shut up, stand in line and not express their feelings? 
                                                        
    Possibly, your realizing that this is a special person, might let
    you work on these things with him, if you think he and the relationship
    are worth it! .12's suggestions of learning to communicate feelings
    is the "right on the head" you were looking for. One quick indicator
    that this could be the issue might be his response when you ask "what
    he wants" in any context, say, "for dinner". How often does he choose
    whatever it is that he knows will make *you* happy? 98% of the time?
    
    Whatever, get him in the habit of talking about how he *feels*,
    about his day, about the election, about his parents, about going
    to school at SUNYAB and being snowed in for 2 weeks, about his job,
    about whatever you can think of that he may *feel* one way or another
    about. In time, when he's used to sharing how he feels with you,
    he'll *be able* to say those words you are hoping to hear.
    
    People just dont understand that there are many who simply do not
    have the skill, or even know how, to express how they feel. They
    were "shut off" from this need early in life, probably because their
    parents "just didnt have the time" to listen. It's called invalidation.
    When you learn from an early age that your feelings have no value
    or are a negative value (i.e. you get in trouble from saying how
    you feel), you become good at not expressing anything. It gets you
    by - without a wipping.
    
    I stress that there's nothing wrong with these people, they just
    need to learn how to do something that was denied them in it's proper
    time.
    
    	Joe Jas       

    Jaycee,
    
    I've got to jump on the "let him miss you" band wagon. I preceived
    my SO to have the big "C" problem, much in the same time frame as
    you are in. I also took into account his being a bachelor a
    few years older than your beau. Well the advice I took at the time
    was leave the guy, I did. Well, did it ever wake him up to the fact
    that I was significant in his life and he realized that he sure
    as hell better tell me about it. Which he did. He later told me that 
    for him it took something significant to jolt him into some emotional 
    action. 
    
    Communication has improved significantly since then but I now
    understand that it is very much his nature not to gush with
    "mushy" stuff. And also, his actions speak louder than his word,
    at least now he referes to me as his girlfriend (it's those little
    triumphs that count). 

    I'm not advising you one way or another, as everyones situation is
    different. I just know that had I continued on with my patient and
    understanding ways I'd probably be feeling as frustrated as you.
    
    Good luck with it, it's obvious you want/need something to happen.
    
    Gail
    

    
    From a man who understands what the big "C" means and also knows
    when he is/isn't available.
    
    Focus on YOU.  You have an obvious need.  A need to communicate
    and know where you stand.  Look at what you are doing right now.
    You have opened yourself up [over NOTES] for help from perfect
    strangers across the network for words of wisdom.  Yet!  The person
    you want most to hear from sleeps next to you.
    
    Take care of yourself.  If your need is that strong than you may
    just have wrong person next to you.  Yeah!  Yeah!  You may give
    him more time.  An coax him carefully, and slowly, and feed him
    pablem.  And one day he might just come out an surprise you.  And
    then what.  Until the next time.  Until the big "M" word is fluttering
    around.
    
    Sounds to me you have a "nice" guy who does not know how to be close
    or express his feelings and may never.  Do you want to be the teacher
    for the rest of your life?  Are going to give 80% to get 20% in
    return?  Will that ever shift to where he gives 80%?  Will it ever
    be 50/50 [is ther is such a thing]?
    
    Tell him what you want and what your needs are.  If he looks at
    you stupid or says I can't give you what you want.  Blow him off.
    If he says he does'nt know how but want to than at least you can
    decide whether you want to put energy into helping him get there.
    
    THERE IS NOTHING WORSE THAN NOT KNOWING WHERE YOU STAND.  EXCEPT
    SOMEONE TELLING YOU WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR [A LIE] SO THAT THEY DON'T
    HAVE TO TELL YOU HOW THEY REALLY FEEL.  
    
    I for one; would rather tell the other person how I feel, what my
    needs are, etc.  And take it from there.
    
    Good luck.
    
    Bill

    
    
    RE: 15
    
    I believe Bill hit the nail right on the head! :-)
    

    
     Jaycee,
    
    	Most often peoples attitudes are formed by experineces they
    	have had, sometimes good, sometimes bad. Your boyfriend may
    	simply be scared to make commitment because he hasn't fully
    	come to trust you. This doesn't necssarily mean that he
    	had a bad experience with an old girlfriend (I know your his
    	first girlfriend) perhaps he observed a friend getting the short 
    	end of the shaft.  My attitudes towards relationships changed
    	drastically when I saw what happened to a friend of mine. My personal
    	feelings are you can't really trust someone until you've spent
    	a sizable amount of time with them.  My friends girlfriend seemed
    	nice enough first month or two then showed her true colors.
    
    	My advice to you is to continue to be as patient as you can.
    	Eventually he will grow to trust you more and will feel more
    	sure making a commitment.  Good luck.
                                                               
    				- A.J.
                                              
    

    Re: .17
    
         Well put.  As one of those folks who learned by trial-and-error
    not to show too much affection too soon, I think that he may very
    well be being cautious.  It is understandably hard on you, but you
    must decide if it is hard enough to warrant the decapitation of
    a potentially better relationship.
    
                                      Greg

    This is something I've seen, myself, and read articles on.  I'm
    sure interested in seeing what you guys have to say, because
    it's something I've never figured out.
    
    Does anybody have any idea why commitment is something that
    women are always wanting, and men are so often trying to avoid?
    (At least it seems the vast majority of commitment-phobes are
    men; it doesn't often seem to be the other way around.)  If it's
    a case of the man wanting the woman, but not permanently because
    she's not the "right one", then why isn't this prevalent with
    women?  Is it that women dump men who aren't Mr. Right at the start,
    rather than holding on until...?  Seems there must be some basic
    male/female differences coming into play here (in general, I mean).
    
    Jaycee,  by my questions, I don't mean to imply that this is the
    case in your relationship.  It could very well be that his feelings
    *are* as strong as yours, but that he isn't comfortable expressing
    them for some reason or another.  Without seeing the two of you
    together, I really have no idea.  Anyway, my thoughts have been 
    covered by previous replies.  I was glad to see your note, because
    this is something I've been curious about for years.
    If it turns out that he doesn't give you what you want, don't
    give up, because someone will come along who *will*.
    
    Good luck!
                                                   
    Paula                               

    Re: .19
    
         I think that women talk about having problems getting their
    choice to commit more often than men do.  I think it is embarrassing
    for some men to admit that they care for someone who does not care
    for them as much.  For that very same reason, I believe, they tend
    to hold off on making commitments.  The prime desire is to have
    someone be 100% surely in love with you, before you tell her that
    you wouldn't mind being with her.  
    
         BTW, try as I will to deny it, I live these descriptions to
    a degree.
    
                                      Greg

    
    re .19
    
    No, I think that is a generalization.
    
    Women are just as capable of being vague and
    standoffish just as we men can be.
    
    

    
    	Re .15-
    
    Yeah! Yeah! Run your relationships like a friggin business! Just
    "fire" someone because they cant do the job (give you what you
    want). You can always go to the employment agency and pick up
    another who will. No "cushy personel" dept in this shop! Dont
    consider for a minute that this is a *person*, you might lose a
    few moments of your precious time.
    
    	Joe Jas
    

    
    	RE: .19
    
    	Paula, speaking for myself ONLY, I have a great deal of trouble
    	expressing to ANY woman my feelings. I must attract the wrong
    	type of person, but without fail, each relationship I've ever
    	had has been one where things were going great UNTIL I made
    	the error of expressing my feelings toward her know. At that
    	point in each relationship, the relationship changed. No longer
    	was any of my interests any concern, I had to start accounting
    	for my every move, moment apart. It then became a power play
    	of who would "control" the relationship rather than the two
    	of us sharing and enjoying the relationship. Sort of like once
    	you say "I love you" you have to give up you and become what
    	she expects you to be and act like...
    
    
    	G_B

    For what it's worth, there are plenty of women who are as afraid
    to commit as men...it's just that we've been conditioned to change,
    to adapt, to be the one to take the responsibility for making the
    relationship a smooth one, and once ingrained, is very hard to change.
     I happen to be a woman who is looking to commit, looking for a
    relationship that can lead to love, marriage, living happily ever
    after, and so on...I'm not looking for Prince Charming, just someone
    who can give a little to get a little.    
    
    When I started this note, I was very upset with myself more than
    anyone else for letting someone else control how I felt.  No one
    did that to me, I did that to myself....again, that ingraining of
    making things all nicey-nicey.  Well, making things nice, and holding
    off a little in the beginning is important to your own sanity, and
    important to the relationship...we all know that you have to keep
    your heart in check for a little while...but after 4 months, I need
    more...and if he can't give me what I need, then I do have to start
    reassessing the importance of this man.  Not to say that I won't
    continue to care for him, because I will, but I  have to put myself
    in a position where I'm the most important thing to me, not him.
    I have a lot of patience, and will wait to see what happens for
    a little while longer, but at some point, this relationship will
    either have to change, or die. 
    
    I really appreciate all the help that you have passed along...you
    have helped me voice things that I was not able to do without a
    push, and I'm grateful.  I'm sure that this discussion is not over,
    because we can all debate for months upon months as to why we don't
    understand what each of us is thinking.  I guess that's why this
    notes file is so important...we can get another point of view....one
    that we may not have been able to face up to alone, but together.
      
                                            
    JayCee

    re: .23
    
    Geez, no wonder you're afraid to express your feelings.  Sounds
    like once you do, their claws come out!  You should never lose
    You in a relationship - I think a relationship should provide
    you with opportunities to become more than you could ever have
    been alone (growth), _not_ lose yourself altogether.  There
    shouldn't be any question of control - it's a mutual growing
    together toward a common goal (love, a life together, or whatever),
    communication, cooperation, consideration;
    it's not a competition.  And there's a very important quality in
    a relationship - TRUST - which should make what you do when you're
    apart of fairly trivial importance, except from the point of view
    of concern and genuine *positive* interest.
    
    I have a suggestion for you.  Perhaps you have certain qualities
    in mind that you look for in a potential member of the opposite
    sex.  Instead of concentrating on what the ideal woman would be
    like, focus on what the ideal *relationship* would be like.  
    Picture it.
    Then, if you really believe you can have an ideal relationship, and
    are deserving of it (convince yourself!), don't be surprised if
    you get it!                              
    
    Good luck to you.
    
    Paula

    This has been an interesting note for me. JayCee's boyfriend sounds a lot
like me.... or at least a lot like the person I used to be - I've come out
of my shell somewhat over the past couple of years.

    I don't fight, I don't scream, I used to clam up (sometimes I think I
still do but I'm working on that), I need my space, I went to an all boy's
prep school (not a military one), went to engineering school (I think there
might have been 2 women in a class of about 800) and I spent a fair amount
of my time in the computer lab..... sound similar? One difference is I'm a
couple of years older. As a guess, I bet he doesn't smoke, do drugs, and
almost never drinks... if at all. See? I told you!

     A lot of good advice here. I going to make a big assumption that he
may be like me (or like I was) in a lot of other ways as well so I'll toss in
my two cents worth of observations. Of the replys so far I feel that .9,
.12, and .17 are amoung the best (from my point of view) in terms of how
he may be feeling. I guess .17 talks more about relationships in general
but I could identify with that one. I feel that .15 is also a a very good
reply about relationships in general as long as you don't go to extreems.
I think the message there was don't get so wraped up in the other person
that you ignore your own needs and wants. Your needs are important too.
I don't think .15 ment to imply that relationships should be run like a
business as .22 suggested athough I could see how it might come across
that way on the surface.

     About the space issue - I'd go along with the people who suggest that
you let him miss you a little. My guess is that he does like/love you but
just doesn't know what to do with you if you are around all the time. He
is probably so used to entertaining himself by hanging out in the lab, or
in his workshop (if he has one) or just 'goofing off around the house' that
he is in the habit of doing that ALL the time. He doesn't have to worry
about entertaining someone else or feel obligated to go someplace or to
do something when you're not there. During those times he doesn't feel the
pressure of a relationship (which sounds like a new experinece for him). Going
from living his own life to a FULL TIME relationship is probably too much of a
shock, too much work to take on all at once. He may enjoy being with you for
a few hours or even a couple of days in a row but then it gets to be too much.
Too much effort, too much time away from his old habits of entertaining
himself (or goofing off), unsure of what to do next.... And so he panics
a little and says he needs some space. He wants to be with you.... but not
all of the time - or at least not nearly as much as you may want to be
with him. I don't think it means that he doesn't like you or doesn't want to be
with you. He probably does.... and yet, at the same time, he wants to be
alone too. It's probably just as confusing for him as it is for you - and
a little hard and confusing to explain..... which is probably why he
doesn't explain it because he doesn't know how (clams up). It's an awkward
situation at best. He may say, or be thinking "I like you and I like to be with
you but I need time by myself." It sounds conflicting, I know, but it may, in
fact, be how he feels. That's why I go along with the 'give him space'
suggestion - he probably does need it. Hopefully there will be a shift, over
time, in which he wants to spend more of his time with you.

     It's also a way to slow down the rate at which the relationship progresses.
I guess that can be good.... or bad depending on the situation and your own
personal view. He's going slow because he may not be sure what he wants or
needs, playing it safe, trying not to take risks, a little afraid of geting
in over his head, perhaps. An engineer is used to measuing things to 0.0001%
accuracy - plugging numbers into a formula and coming up with an answer - or
in the case of computers... it's either a '1' or a '0' .... there are no
maybe's, sort of's, kind of's, or feelings - just cold hard FACTS. It can
come as a shock to find out that relationships just don't work the same way.
You can't measure feelings to even 10% accuracy - let alone 0.0001% ... and
there arn't any formulas that to plug these values into (assuming you
could measure them in the first place) to come up with any answers. (So
I could never understand how computer dating could realy work in the first
place.) In short, the rules that applied so well in the rest of his life,
in school, at work, in the lab....etc.... well, they just don't work here.
It may be the only place in his life where they don't work. He probably
realizes that but isn't sure what on earth to do about it or how to
proceede. He may want to proceed, but just doesn't know how or is scared
to. He may be at that stage in dating that most people when through in
junior high or high school.... remember what that was like?

    Does commitment = marrage? He might think that it does and is not ready
for that. What does commitment mean to you? Do you define it the same way
that he does? Do you commit to someone just becasue you still like them
after 4 months even though you might break up after 6 months? Is it the
adult version of 'going steady'? Or does it mean there's a 95+ percent
chance that this is the person I want to spend the rest of my life with?
I don't ask the questions becuase I'm looking for or expect to get an
answer - I just toss it out as food for thought. What does commitment
mean.... to you..... to him?

     He may also be trying to figure out what his values are, what his limits
are, what he will accept and will not accept in another person. Values would
be something like 'education'... Is that something he values? - Or money,
interest in science, art, books.... whatever. Maybe he has no interest in
sports and so sports would have little or no value to him. Limits would be
limits on things that he values. To follow up on the value of education -
could he accept you if you had a lot more education, or a lot less, than he
has. How wide are his limits?.... He probably doesn't know because without
relationship(s) they never had to be defined before.

    He may have a feeling of being controled by you (ooops - another 'C'
word!). I'm sure you don't intend to do that but he may feel that way.
That comes from him doing whatever he wants, when he wants - and now
there is someone else in his life that he has to consider. When you are
around he feels he can't do what he wants (even though he likes to be
with you!). He has to realize (if this is the case) that you don't
control him - that he is puting that feeling upon himself. Watch out
for this. It can lead to him resenting you controling his life and the
relationship will end. Because you are his first real girlfriend, he
may bend over backwards not to tell you anything negative for fear that
it will destroy the relationship. So he may not say anything at all
(claming up again) or worse - telling you something that will make you
feel good even if it's not how he feels. That leads to more of a feeling
on his part that you control him....etc. Try to coax him into saying what
he feels - good or bad - that it is important to you to know how he feels
and that it's OK to say "I'm not sure how I feel about that." I suspect
that there are alot of things he's not sure how he feels about. That's
OK for now. Sounds like he needs time to sort things out for himself.

    It sounds like he had a sheltered upbringing and he is just now starting
to realize what's going on in the world outside the computer lab. It's
going to take him some time to learn, and to break old habits. He'll get
there and you can help him along.

    Just some thoughts on the subject. Some/all/none of this may apply to
your relationship. If it helps, great! If not, well, I tried. I don't have any
advice to give you other than to say you should do what is right for you. I'm
sure he is a 'nice guy' as one other reply said, but it's a relationship that
is going to take work - on his part and yours. You both have to communicate
with each other - not just talk. It will be frustrating at times but only you
can decide if the effort is worth the possible gains. Try talking (I mean
comuunicating) some more, but don't push too hard - let him have some room.
Maybe if you print out your note with the replys and leave it around for him to
read, it will make him aware of how much you want to help and what this
relationship means to you or maybe some of the replys express exactly how
he feels and will provide him with the words he was not able to pull together
himself. Maybe that that wouldn't be such a good idea.... I don't know. Your
decision. At any rate, I hope things work out for the best for both of you -
whatever that might be.

       Rick

    I'd like to suggest a paperback book which you might find enlightening.
    It's titled "Men Who Can't Love...How to recognize a commiment-phobic
    man before he breaks your heart" written by Steven Carter and Julia
    Sokol (Berkley Books).  Yes, I've been where you are at and I don't
    have the answers.  In my case, I didn't recognize that he was afraid
    of the big "C" before I got emotionally involved and he "ran" when I 
    admitted my feelings for him.
    
    - wendy -
    

    	Since I really can only speak for myself, I'd have to say there
    	are times when I'm ready for committment and times I'm not, and
    	it's quite possible that concurrently I can be unable to give a
    	committment to one person while wanting to make a committment
    	with another.  It depends on what the person inspires in you, I 
    	suppose, and whether you know this person is someone you'd want 
    	to pursue a serious relationship with (and vice versa).
    
    	We've all been with someone whose company we enjoy tremendously
    	but who just isn't The Right Person--you can tell this (mostly)
    	fairly soon off, and I find it much healthier to recognize this 
    	than trying to force feelings or a situation that isn't kosher 
    	with what one's heart and/or mind is saying.
    
    	I've somewhat a difficult time believing it's only men who shy
    	away from committments--some of the most desireable men I know 
    	are married (drats!) or seriously involved.  Tell me, is it so
    	wrong to avoid committment when you know deep down that you're 
    	not ready for it?
    
    						   Carla
    

    	RE:  .0
    
    	It seems to me that when a relationship is fairly new, there
    	is a kind of 'suspense' that goes along with it.  ('Will this
    	person be THE person?' 'Will we be together for a long time?'
    	'Are we really in love?'  'Is this relationship going to change
    	the course of our lives?')  Questions like that seem to lurk
    	in the background (consciously or UNconsciously) whenever strong
    	feelings start to become apparent between two people that haven't
    	been seeing each other for very long.
    
    	When people make commitments to each other, the 'suspense' is
    	supposedly over.  Plans are made and it changes things, like
    	it or not.  Suddenly there are certain expectations involved
    	between the people (as well as additional responsibilities.)
    	These expectations and responsibilities can be wonderful, but
    	they can also be scary (especially if one or both of the people
    	making the commitment is unfamiliar/out_of_practice with the 
    	realities involved in serious relationships and doubts exist
    	as to whether or not one or both people can measure up to the
    	challenge of *maintaining* that sort of involvement.) 
    
    	In a case of dealing with self-doubt (in one or more of the
    	persons involved,) there can come a point where one or both
    	people would almost rather not deal with the relationship AT
    	ALL than risk failing and being badly hurt.
    
    	To me, the key to everything is whether or not you are happy
    	in each other's company (and whether or not the two of you can
    	live with the suspense involved with *waiting* to make the
    	commitment.)  Not making the commitment gives HIM a certain
    	freedom from having to make a decision, but remember that it
    	also does the same thing for YOU!  If *you* are not sure whether
    	or not he is 'the one,' then an uncommitted relationship will
    	give you the time that YOU need to find out.
    
    	Although any commitment can be broken, it sometimes happens that
    	people live up to their stated commitments to each other more
    	out of loyalty to the commitment *itself* than out of a remaining
    	desire to continue in the relationship.  (For example, when
    	I got married 9 years ago, it was to a man with whom I'd lived
    	for 2 and a half years, and with whom I'd exchanged many, many
    	promises of love, marriage and a life together.  I think I knew
    	before the actual wedding that we wouldn't make it as husband
    	and wife, but after years of promising each other that we would
    	do it, including defying his family's wishes about it, I think
    	we each felt a need to live up to the commitments we'd made,
    	anyway.  We ended up getting divorced a few years later.)

    	The way I feel now is that, although a commitment relatively
    	*early* would take the suspense out of a new relationship for
    	me, I'd rather that both people *refrain* from making promises
    	to each other and just live out happy times together instead
    	(with no thought to the future except that we 'promise' each
    	other that we are going to continue to see each other for the
    	time being and just see how it goes.)  
    
    	If you are having happy times with the man, those times won't
    	be lost or wasted if the relationship drifts apart and the
    	commitment never comes (at least *I* wouldn't consider the times
    	as lost or wasted.)  Good times can stand on their own as being
    	worth doing (even if nothing serious ever comes of them.)

    	Even though *he* seems to be the one who is shying away from
    	commitment, it is possible for *you* to appreciate the advantages
    	of a relationship that develops slowly.  You can savor it and
    	enjoy the pleasure of discovering each other more gradually.
    
    	It can be like opening a very precious package very, very slowly.
    	It may turn out to be something that will be the thrill of your
    	life (or maybe it won't.)  But it isn't necessarily the only
    	package you will ever receive.  The urgency isn't necessary,
    	and you do have a choice as to whether you will feel it or not.
    
    	My recommendation is to give the man space.  If you can learn
    	to live with that sort of arrangement, it could benefit you
    	as much as it does him.  If you can't, then the two of you will
    	need to make some other decision that you *both* can live with
    	(and it may mean finding other loves.)
    
    	Best luck and wishes to both of you!
    
    							   Suzanne 

This might not be such a good idea.  One reason is that it might make him feel
pressured, and another is that I believe that it is against DIGITAL policy to
export the contents of notesfiles outside of DIGITAL. 

Jim.

    re: .31
    
    Don't worry - I think that he would freak out if he thought that
    half of Digital knew that there was a problem.  Besides, I need
    to keep all the good advice for myself! ;-)
    
    JayCee
    

    Just thought that I'd share a little of what your advice did for
    me over the last week or two...it's been good, it could be better,
    but I'll have to settle for taking it one step at a time...
    
    Last weekend was a wash-out for us...he had things to do on Saturday
    and Sunday (he went to see his mother...without me, of course!),
    and I had plans for Friday night...he thought we'd see each other
    on Friday, but didn't call until Friday afternoon at 3:00 to tell
    me that he had driven in and would like to meet for drinks.  Well,
    I was extremely sweet as I told him that I hadn't heard from him
    all week and that I had made plans.  If silence could kill, I would
    be 6 feet under.  NOTHING!  Not even breathing.  Well, I continued
    with the conversation like nothing had happened, told him to have
    a great weekend, and a good time next week (which is now) travelling
    to Chicago and then to Philly, and that I would "see him in
    September"...everyone sing along now.  He started stumbling over
    his own words to tell me that he would definately speak to me before
    he left...well, there was a message on my machine saturday night,
    and sunday night.  Not only were the messages there, but when I
    finally called him back Sunday night, he asked me to go away for
    Labor Day weekend.  Far cry from the way he was the week before.
    All I know is that "giving him his space" worked...he had so much
    room that he was lonely!  Maybe now he'll realize that taking me
    for granted is not such a smart thing.  I can't believe that he
    would commit to going away for three days...we've usually only done
    saturday night on into sunday.
    
    I'll keep you all posted on what happens from here on in, but wanted 
    you all to know that your advice worked...
    not only for this particular situation, but in general.
     
    Thanks for all your help, your kind wishes, and your ideas!
    
    JayCee

    
    
    
    Wonderful news!  Sounds as if things are developing more
    positively.  Don't fall back into old habits, ok?  And please
    do keep us posted!!
    
                     Deb
    

    
    Attagirl, Jaycee!
    
    Hope you have a great weekend together and that you go on to even
    happier times! And DO let us know how it goes...
    
    Abigail
    

    
    
    Wonderful!  Just remember to stick to it till he comes around.
    But be consistently loving and don't give him the impression that
    you're trying to control the relationship, being manipulative, or
    blowing him off.
    
    If he going to make his own plans without you, then you can do the
    same.  Try spending more time with friends that you might have
    not kept in touch with while you were spending all that time with
    your guy.  Get involved in something that makes you feel good
    about yourself - like learning a new sport or taking a class.
    Keep yourself occuppied.  Remember, you are most important.
    Prove to yourself first that you are self-sufficient and that 
    you don't need to depend on him.
    
    As I mentioned, feel good about yourself, and if he is the 'right'
    person for you, then he'll feel good about your relationship.
    
    Good luck!
    
    Pat
    

JAYCEE,

 This type of "I need my space" response is not unusual with men who
aren't sure what they really want from relationships; especially
first-timers.   I have friends who are very honest about what they expect
from relationships; this would seem healthy, but feelings still get hurt.

I also have a good friend (female) who was in a relationship for five years
(hoping for marriage) when it suddenly ended after one of his business trips.
Within one year he married someone else.  She met a great guy who really
knew what he wanted and a year later they were married.

The point:

You must know exactly what you want from life, especially if you want kids
and your bio-clock is ticking.  Sure, everybody deserves
the right to some time to think and enjoy their own space, but this too can
happen within the core of a healthy/honest releationship.

Be honest with him and tell him you need more and if loves you he still may
not be able to express himself any better, but he won't run away.   Then,
you will have part of your answer. 

-SWF-

< Note 562.37 by BPOV04::MIN >
                      -< Be Consistent&More Independent. >-

    
    
    Wonderful!  Just remember to stick to it till he comes around.
    But be consistently loving and don't give him the impression that
    you're trying to control the relationship, being manipulative, or
    blowing him off.
    
    If he going to make his own plans without you, then you can do the
    same.  Try spending more time with friends that you might have
    not kept in touch with while you were spending all that time with
    your guy.  Get involved in something that makes you feel good
    about yourself - like learning a new sport or taking a class.
    Keep yourself occuppied.  Remember, you are most important.
    Prove to yourself first that you are self-sufficient and that 
    you don't need to depend on him.
    
    As I mentioned, feel good about yourself, and if he is the 'right'
    person for you, then he'll feel good about your relationship.
    
    Good luck!
    
    Pat
    

 I understand how you must be important to yourself. But the most important
    thing to me is finding the woman for me. So I know that when I'm
    with my SO (when I find one) that I must work on the relationship.
    I'm not so immature to think we'll never have a problem. But it
    does surprise me now adays most people run after a fuss or 2. Oh
    I'm not saying stay in a relationship where its hell. But if you
    really LOVE them then don't give up on them. And the first thing
    you should do is figure out your LOVE for them.
    
    Ben

The following topic has been contributed by a member of our community who
wishes to remain anonymous.  If you wish to contact the author by mail, please
send your message to QUARK::HR_MODERATOR, specifying the relevant note number.

				




What does commitment mean to you?

Is it saying "I love you"?

Is it committing to maintaining a relationship?

Is it marriage?

Is it just committing to work on any problems that may arise in the
relationship, to see if they can be resolved?  If not, than does that
mean the relationship is dissolved?  How do you define that kind of 
commitment?  Is that really a commitment?  I could say after one
lengthily disagreement that the problem is unresolvable.  = de-commitment.

Your ideas please.

    Re: .40 
    
    Commitment is much more than saying, "I love you."  It's
    putting everything into a relationship that's required to
    make it last over an extended period of time.  Most likely
    does not rule out marriage, but might not require marriage.
    Generally would involve marriage, I suppose.  It means you
    don't run away when things get rough; you try to work them
    out.  And if you both give 100% then you've got a pretty
    good chance.  But if you've given everything you've got
    over a period of time,
    things aren't good, and don't look like they can improve,
    then it seems like you'd be a fool to stay committed.
    Hopefully dissolving the relationship would be a mutual
    decision.  But commitment helps you work through the tough
    times, and come out with something better in the long run.
    
    -Paula

    I find it very iteresting that such a question would be contributed
    anonymously. I suspect the contributor doesn't want their SO to
    know that they are looking for this answer. So my first reaction
    would be to ask the person who's response you really want the
    questions you've posed here.
    
    In the mean time I'd be glad to share how I feel, maybe I'll forward
    a copy to my SO!

    Is commitment saying "I love you"? Not at all, anyone can say the
    words. They mean different things to different people. Personnally
    they are words that take a lot of time and consideration of a
    relationship before they are expressed. In other word I still hold
    the phrase for very special people. I notice some people interject
    it at random.
    
    Does commitment mean you are committed to maintaining a relationship?
    I think asking for a commitment is the very essence of saying I'd
    like to maintain this relationship with you, exclusively. Commiting
    to maintain a relationship can mean a lot of effort on both sides,
    both parties have to recognize and be willing to do this.
    
    When a relationship has reached a point that the parties desire
    a commitment from each other they are deciding to exclude others
    from their "dating" life (for lack of a better word) and want to
    see if they can make thing work/grow between them. If problems come
    up the other person isn't going to run nor are they going to ignore
    the problems. That reaction might be fine in a short term, uncommited
    relationship but these people have decided to go for something longer
    and more meaningful. I equate meaningful with a desire for longterm
    togetherness, be that longterm result in marriage or not.
    
    I think you can be commited to attempting to resolve problems that
    arise. Unlike marriage, a dating commitment means that departing
    (forego the commitment) is one of your options. If the problem
    seems so insurmountable as not to be overcome than it may be clear
    that it is time to move on.  I believe divorces result from the fact
    that insurmountable problems arise after the ultimate commitment
    to another person (marriage) has taken place.

    I guess if I am commited to another person, I'm going to do everything
    I can to work things out, having already determined that that person
    is worth my effort. I would expect no less from them. If I were to get 
    less or see that my efforts are in vain and the relationship is not 
    progressing then it would be time for "decommitting".

    Just my ideas on the Big C
    
    Gail
    

    re: .40
    
    Oh, I forgot the issue of resolving problems.  Hopefully, yes,
    you would be committed to resolving problems that arise.
    However, what if they aren't resolveable?  End the relationship?
    Not necessarily - maybe you can both learn to live with something
    not resolved.  Depends on what it is.  Or go to a counselor for
    help.  Objective views from people with experience in these areas
    can be very helpful.  I think the commitment is to work on finding
    a resolution, or at least a solution that you can both live with.
    
    The commitment is to making an already loving relationship keep
    working for the happiness of both individuals involved.
    
    -Paula

    
    
    Perhaps thinking of a relationship as a living entity,
    one that needs support and nurturing, would help to
    define the term commitment.  I know it does for me.
    
    Commitment (for me) begins with the mutual agreement
    on values.  The top priority values in my mind are
    honesty and fidelity.  Is my partner ready to commit
    to these values?  Next comes the commitment (emotional
    contract, if you will) to relationship-to make that 
    relationship the number one element in one's life. 
    To be open to communication, sensitivity, to be willing
    to give, and to work hard, when necessary, to make the
    relationship work.  
    
    I think of it as a pyramid....with three entities of equal
    value...I value and support myself, but I also value and
    support my partner, and finally, I value and support the
    relationship.   Just as I would not act in a way that harms
    myself, I would not harm my relationship.
    
    Deb
    

    I agree with all of .41-.44.  Commitment is more than words, it
    is a dedication to the relationship, a pledge to support it and
    rebuild it every day.
    
    				Steve

    
    
    But some people want the cake (depth, commitment, a sense of
    permenence, plans for the future) as well as the frosting (bagels
    and good times and the Sunday funnies).
    
    Deb
    

    
    1. i was crazy over this woman and she was crazy over me.
    it was obvious by how much time we spent together and how
    we treated each other both when we were together and when
    we were apart.
      so i started telling her how special she was to me and
    waited for her to reciprocate those words....
    	i kept bugging her about it and getting disappointed
    when she wouldn;t say it and kept bugging her and kept
    getting disappointed....
    	until finally i just drove her away....
    
    	"can't you just enjoy this without driving me crazy?"
    
    2. if you love him and you have all those terrific times
    and fantastic times and wonderful times and spend all that time
    together then just shut the hell up and enjoy it.
    	as long as he cares for you (loves?) then he will keep
    showing up and you will continue to have those wonderful,
    fantastic, terrific times together.
    	as long as he keeps showing up and you keep having those
    wonderful/terrific/fantastic times together then he must care
    for you.
    
    3. you said that he acts and shows that he cares....
    so leave it alone!
    don't drive him away!
    
    4. i wonder how many people who "committed" themselves spend
    wonderful/fantastic/terrific times together now? most people
    who "commit" themselves are now living boring, mundane and
    practically seperate lives and all the terrific/fantastic and
    wonderful disappeared long ago....
    
    i wouldn't trade all those fantastic/wonderful/terrific times
    for all the commitment in the world!
    
    5. just because someone "commits" to you doesn't mean he will love
    you or stay with you forever....and it's naive and silly to ask
    someone to "commit" to something that none of us can ever truly
    know that we can give or live up to....
    and, regardless of what you were taught or what most people still
    believe, it's not important.
    we change, we grow, sometimes together but quite often apart...
    and it's all ok....
    so forget asking for the commitment (and disappointing yourself
    and pushing him away) and just enjoy the love and wonderful/
    terrific/fantastic times as long as they last....

    

    Rik, you seem to view commitment as a sort of a contract.  I don't
    hold that view - to me, commitment is a pledge to work at keeping
    the relationship strong.  The problem is that too many people
    think of it as something that, once said, needs no more work.
    
    If you are TRULY committed, and so is your partner, you will never
    be surprised at what happens.  It may not be forever, but you'll
    take what comes with your eyes open.
    
    Some of us want commitment, some don't.  I don't think it's right
    to put someone down just because they desire commitment from
    their partner.
    
    				Steve

    
    re: .49...
    i know you really just don't understand, steve...
    i know that you believe i must be "putting someone down" by
    my words and beliefs...
    
    i hope you understand that i am not putting anyone down...
    i truly believe what i said and i don't think it's a putdown...
    
    it's just my observations and my beliefs and in no way to i intend
    putting anyone down for having opposite views....
    
    i state my opinion...
    you state yours...
    i do not take your opposing view as a put down to me!
    i hope you can take my opposing view without considering it
    a putdown....
    
    rik
    

    
    and i do not view "commitment as a contract"
    i view commitment as an unnecessary ritual that causes more
    neurotic pain than is neccessary....
    
    just take a look at all the notes in here by people saying....
    	"but he promised!"
    	"it was supposed to last forever"
    	etc.....
    and always with pain or hatred or a combo of the 2....
    and all because they were taught, very young, by there parents
    and peers, to believe in and crave something that just isn't
    realistic or even neccesary....
    
    wether you spend a life time (happily an dlovingly) with one
    person or with 10 people doesn't matter...
    just as long as you were happy and had love...
    
    

    It is not the commitment that caused the pain and anger.
    It was the breaking of the commitment.  Maturity is knowing
    which commitments to speak and which to let pass.  
    
    I don't find pain 'neurotic'...of course I grieve when I have
    lost a friend, a relationship, a marriage.  I find that pain
    to be healthy-proof that I am alive and human.
    
                           Deb
    
    

    Re: .52
    
    >I don't find pain 'neurotic'
    
    As the Dread Pirate Roberts once said, "Life *is* pain, Highness.
    Anyone who tells you different is selling something."  I don't know
    that I'd go that far, but I don't discount pain as abnormal.  How
    can you really enjoy happiness if you've never known pain or sadness?

	"How can you really enjoy happiness if you've never known pain or
	sadness?"
    
    If anyone is looking for volunteers for an experiment, I'd like to say
    that I'm willing to be a test subject. 
    
    	Jon

    Which group are you volunteering for, Jon? The control group (pain
    and sadness) or the experimental group (no pain and sadness)?
    
    Tamzen

    Why, the test group, of course. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough. I'm
    willing to write a report about whether or not it's possible to be
    *truly* happy with no pain and suffering ever. 
    
    	Jon

Jon, to do that experiment they would have to remove from your life, your past,
present and future, all occasions of physical or psychological pain, and
everything related to it...

There are a lot of things in my life that are important to me that happen to
have some relation to some pain in my life.  I would not want to remove those
things that are important to me from my life in order to perform that
experiment. 

Jim.

    Anyone read any Spider Robinson books?  Especially his latest one,
    Mind___ (something or other, I don't recall the title, but it just
    came out).  Rik's notes often bring back bits of the Spider Robinson
    novels and stories I've read.  Some of you folks out there in the
    note ether might find his work interesting - much of it deals with
    people's dealings with people and society - at any rate, he can
    tell a satisfying and different story.
    
    --L

    
    re:58...
    er...is that good? or bad?
    i'm so use to posting a reply...recieving a demeaning insult...
    responding as politely as i can that they should not insult me...
    and then recieving mail from moderators that i'm causing trouble
    again....that i'm shocked that someone mentioned my name and
    my notes without a plethora of 25 cent words with 4 letter word
    meanings....
    
    i'll take that as a compliment and thanks!
    rik
    

    Hey Rik, it's good news!  SR might even come from your planet.
    
    Besides, I tend not to use too many $.25 words because I'd
    have to look up the spellings....

    --Louise

    Re: .58
    
    Well, you're probably thinking of "Mindkiller", which is not
    Spider's most recent novel.  I think the latest is "Time Pressure".
    
    "Mindkiller" is an expansion of a SUPERB short story called "God
    is an Iron".  I wish I could be as complimentary about the novel.
    (And I found "Time Pressure" to be a complete waste of a tree.)
    
    I like Spider Robinson, and I can see some connection between the
    philosophy espoused in his later books and Rik's writings, but
    in my view, some of the weaknesses are shared too.  This statement
    is not mean to be a criticism of Rik, but merely an indication that
    I disagree with some of his ways of looking at things.
    
    				Steve

    
    
    re: 61
    which doesn't neccesarily make them "weaknesses" :-)
    
    my idea of a weakness could be your idea of a strength...
    and vice versa...
    yes?
    
    in fact, many of the things you believe in (at least, things i 
    THINK you believe in) i tend to think are weaknesses...
    which is not a criticism of you, steve, but a criticism of many
    of the things society teaches us....
    it's also not intended as an insult...just an observation and
    a personal judgement....

    but i respect your right to think that my opinions and ideals
    are fraught with weaknesses because you either don't agree with them
    or don't understand them....as i know you will respect my right
    to feel the same way about some of your points of view and beliefs
    for the same reasons.
    
    and both of us realize that this is all impersonal and that having
    differing beliefs or points of view does not make either one of
    us a "jerk" or a "fool" or.....anything derogatory...
    
   rik
    

    Re .61 - I was thinking of Time Pressure, which I just read.  It's
    related to Mindkiller, which I haven't read yet.  I could get into
    a long discussion with you, Steve, on what you thought of as strengths
    and weaknesses in SR books.  Since they deal with HR topics, would
    you like to discuss this in a new topic?  After the ideas are
    identified, we could move from the books to discussing the topics,
    which would include members of the conference who haven't read
    them.  Or we could resume these discussions when a large portion
    of the noters have read the books.... (I promise, I don't get any
    kickbacks on book sales, honest!)
    

    --Louise

    Re: .62
    
    Agreed.
    
    Re: .63
    
    My principal argument with "Time Pressure" was that it wasn't a
    story - it had no plot to speak of.  Sure, you can start a note
    on Robinson's books and I'll be happy to share my views there.
    
    				Steve