Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    I would have made a remark to the effect of "how sexist of you to
    notice" which no doubt would have been their's had the tables been
    turned.
    
    -j

The comment was probably inappropriate (depending on how well everyone in the
meeting knew each other, and how formal the meeting was).  I don't think there
was anything WRONG with it, though... or that there would necessarily be
anything wrong with the hypothetical reversal you suggested, for that matter.

I really don't see anything wrong with acknowledging the way someone looks.  The
problem---and the reason such a remark from a woman is overlooked while it would
be attacked if from a man---is that our culture has a long and painful history
of overt sexism against women, and much of it is focused on appearance.  Calling
attention to the appearance of a woman is often a painful reminder of that
sexism---even when it's reasonably obvious that no sexism was intended.  Whereas
calling attention to the appearance of a man is usually "safe"... it lacks the
unpleasant connotations.

The progress towards equality is uneven.  In most of the really important areas,
women are still well behind (pay, opportunities, etc.); but in some ways, things
really have "swung the other way", and there are areas of societal interaction
where women can act freely whereas men cannot.  Few would question a woman
holding a door for a man, yet I've heard a number of women who are truely
offended by a man holding a door for them.  It really isn't the ACTION... it's
the connotations, and reminders of the past (which is really, unfortunately, 
still the present in many places and situations).

Of course, the other hand is that such a remark (whether by a man or a woman)
IS wrong... if the intent is "sexist" and demeaning.  Unfortunately, it's not
always easy to judge an action by the immediate intent, rather than by
association.  Human memory is VERY associative.

	/dave

    To the base noter:
    
    Your note is very gently worded and provokes thought.  I too have
    noticed behavior from some women that would land men in hot water,
    and it makes me uncomfortable.  It IS a double standard.  
    
    I would encourage you to point out to the woman this aspect of
    her behavior -- privately and gently.  If you feel comfortable
    handling it face-to-face, do so -- otherwise, sending a copy of
    your note is quite appropriate, in my opinion.  It provides food
    for thought without being accusative or combative, and is therefore
    likely to succeed in getting the point across.
    
    My opinion only, take it or leave it.
    Beth

    I agree with /dave's response in .2.  I think the situation could
    have been handled with humor.  You could have said, "Oh, *really*,
    come on, how would you feel if I made that comment about a woman's
    legs?!"  And, see what she has to say for herself.
    
    I think it's just a symptom of the changing times.  We want equality
    but does equality mean that it's okay for both men and women to
    be sex objects, sometimes, or does equality mean that neither men
    or women should be treated as sex objects?  Who knows how it will
    all turn out in the end?
    
    /dave is right.  There is a long, painful history of women being
    treated as sex objects.  For a man to call a woman on making a comment
    like that is sort of like white men complaining of descrimination
    when a job goes to a minority.  When you consider the history on
    both sides it's almost like sour grapes.  It's like saying, Oh,
    you want equality, well now look what you're doing to me.  Now you're
    treating me bad too.  After great injustice it takes awhile for
    things to even out.
    
    There was one Cathy cartoon where a man approaches Cathy and her
    girlfriend at a health club and says something like, Hey, what's
    happening?  Do you come here often? and Andrea says, "How dare you
    assume that just because we are sitting in a health club that we
    want to be picked up!! Chauvinist pig!" (or something like that).
     The guy quickly turns and walks off, and Andrea says, "Nice buns
    though."
    
    Lorna
    

Actually, I don't think there was anything wrong with the women's
sexist remarks. I wish women weren't that sensitive about similar
remarks --made in **their** direction-- and saw the appreciative
aspect, rather then the 'sexist pig' one. 

Assuming such remarks are good natured and not exploitative, I think
we can lighten up a bit and accept them as indicative of human
nature (which they are). 

-- Ron 

    I, too, don't think that there is anything wrong with it.
    However, I don't think it should be discussed at a business
    meeting.

    Re: .3
    
    >I too have noticed behavior from some women that would land men in hot 
    >water, and it makes me uncomfortable.  It IS a double standard.
    
    The next question is, why is it acceptable for women to make comments
    but not men?  I think it has to do with the preponderance of comments
    from males over time, which have added up to a pretty hefty compendium. 
    The weight of these comments has gotten rather oppressive over time. 
    Adding to the compendium of comments about women is seen as making an
    oppressive situation even worse.
    
    On the other hand, the accumulation of publicly-made comments by women
    over time is still pretty much on the slim side.  Adding to that
    smaller accumulation is not perceived to be as hazardous.
    
    Also, someone raised the issue of "turnabout is fair play."  It was
    applied to the reaction (react as they would react), but it could also
    be applied to the behavior.
    
    I was thinking about this recently.  One of the things that women have
    to deal with is that they've never had a time when they could, with
    social impunity and immunity, act like sexist jerks.  (Some would say
    that women enjoy such a status now, but the number of such complaints I
    hear is contradictory evidence.)  Obviously, the world doesn't need
    more people acting like jerks to each other.  I think that, for the
    most part, women don't really want to be jerks.  (Maybe a little, to
    get it out of their systems, but not with serious malice.)  It's just
    difficult for someone with a sense of fair play to handle the fact that
    women cannot and will not be able to get away with something that men
    got to do for years.  It simply isn't equitable, and that's
    frustrating.

    A recent experience: A friend of mine shares a cube with a woman,
    her cubemates desk had a pamphlet advertizing tee-shirts.  The
    subjects of the tee-shirt were derogatory remarks about men depicting
    womans bordome with men and men eating from dog dishes etc.  The
    pamphlet was placed carelessly on the desk and not put away as it
    should have been.  I was very offended by this, but in thinking
    about it I felt sorry for this woman and her value of men.  I know
    though if I'd had text like this in an open area I'd be looking
    at the front door of DEC from the outside.
    
    

    Re .8, maybe she just thought they were funny.  Maybe the t-shirts
    don't reflect her "value of men."  Maybe she really loves men, but
    feels she has been hurt by them over time, and these t-shirts allow
    her to view the situation with humor, and feel better?  Who knows?
     I don't think the fact that she had these pamphlets on her desk
    necessarily means that she hates men.  
    
    For years women have had to put up with such things as the "take
    my wife" jokes, etc.
    
    We've always known men aren't perfect angels, now we know women
    aren't either.
    
    Lorna
    

    Ah, yes, the old double standard. It will never go away. It's too bad
    some people feel the pendulum has to swing all the way to the other
    side before a situation can be "even". But I think those people are
    missing the point. Instead of getting our licks in now that society
    says we can, would it be so terrible if we all began to act respectful?
    
    In the original scenario presented, I agree with a previous noter who
    said we don't know the details of how the comments were presented. Was
    the woman speaking loudly in order to evoke certain responses from
    everyone present? Was she commenting to her best friend, who just
    happens to also be a working buddy? Did she have previous information
    that the man she was discussing had been out of shape and has been
    active in a health club for awhile, and was therefore outwardly
    complimenting him? Since I wasn't there, I can't say.
    
    But one thing's for sure. I sure do love men's muscular arms!
    
    					Susan

    Re: .7


>    The next question is, why is it acceptable for women to make comments
>    but not men?  I think it has to do with the preponderance of comments


    	Something about your note bothered me, until I finally put my
    finger on it:  I, for one, do *not* consider it "acceptable".  Perhaps
    it is accepted in certain areas, but that is a different story.  The
    reasons you cite may be reasons why those people think it's okay, but
    they are hardly reasons to continue this type of double standard --
    i.e., two wrongs do not make a right.  (BTW, I am not condemning you of
    anything just pointing out something that bothered me.)


    	Perhaps this bothers me because I was once victim of such an
    incident (I made a very innocent statement but it was taken as being
    sexist by someone who turned around and later did something quite
    sexist herself).  Frankly, I agree with the folks who say that it's not
    such a big deal as long as it's done right, but I also think it should
    go both ways or not at all.


    Brian

    
    In general....
    
    It should not be acceptable for any *person* to make comments that are
    derogatory in sexual terms about any other *person*. If this lady [sic]
    over-stepped the bounds, then she should have been called [politely] on
    it.
    
    Specifically....
    
    As with all things....it depends. If the people at the meeting are all
    on familiar terms, and sexist [in fun] remarks are equally accepted by
    both men and women at the meeting....then I would think it was OK.
    
    If it was a serious [business is such a broad term] meeting...then such
    remarks by anyone should have been verboten.
    
    If the woman in question does not tolerate equally harmless sexual
    remarks from her male co-workers, then her action was absolutley
    unacceptable and she should be confronted and asked to apologise to all
    men who were present.
    
    Fair is fair...Hmmmm?....or alternatively, if you wanna dance, pay the
    piper.
    
    Melinda

    Re: .11
    
    In the case of this meeting and the behavior there, it was acceptable
    for the woman to make the comment she made.  Sometimes it is accepted
    (and therefore acceptable by definition); sometimes it isn't.  Like so
    many things, it all depends on the context.  Unfortunately,
    "acceptable" bears the double meanings of "what is accepted" and "what
    should be accepted."

         Those who are aware of the damaging effects of the various
    "isms", and yet feel free to excercise their own "isms" have often
    evoked the thought "FOOL" to the tip of my tounge.  Luckily, my
    lips have kept the thought from escaping in most cases.
    
                                     Greg

    I probably should have pointed out in my original note that I wasn't
    looking for suggestions of what to do about it - I didn't feel that
    anything needed to be done.  I was interested in a discussion on
    the different perceptions of such activity by men and by women.
    
    For your information, the meeting was informal, among "close"
    associates, and the remark in question was told in an offhand
    manner.  If someone had turned the tables on her, she probably
    would have blushed and smiled.  No offense was meant or taken.
    
    I might tell her at some point about it.  Or then again, I might
    not.  It's not a big deal to me.
    
    The discussion here so far has been interesting, especially regarding
    whether it is "ok" for the pendulum to swing the other way and for
    women to "get away" with a behavior that they have decried in men
    for so long.

    All I can say is there is time for business....time for fun.
    
    Those kinds of remarks should not belong in conference rooms, the
    belong in nightclubs.
    
    Lynne

    I would be offended if a man were to make comments about me (and
    have been the object of "sexist remarks" such as what the base noter
    wrote in the past), so I see no reason why women should do the same,
    it just demeans them in the eyes of the people around them.
    
    With my friends, joking around, that's a different matter, though
    ... not in public, certainly not at a meeting!
    
    Just my .02!
    
    Tammi
    

    Re: .9  I know its a bit judgmental on my part but I think its based
            more on results than opinion.  I must agree with your points
            that this could be a way of venting.
    

    
    My friend's grandfather was capable of providing insight to
    many situations with his own brand of wit and wisdom proverbs, 
    one of which is:
    
    	"Nothing worthwhile is ever accomplished without 
    	 a lot of hard work and a little fooling around."
    
    Eric