Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    If the relationship is important enough to her, she should make the
    first move.  Why wait?  He may be asking himself the same questions.
    
    What is there to lose besides what already may be lost?  Honesty
    is the best policy, and honesty includes telling people how you feel,
    not waiting for them to make the first move.  One also has to be 
    honest with themselves.
    
    Just my opinion.  Hope this helps!
    
    
    
    
    

    
    Re:0  
    ANSWER to Me is = NOBODY ! or EVERYBODY !
    It's either simple or complex. 

 One of the problems I have created for myself is that there have been times
when I didn't want to make the first move. As time went on, I felt guilty
about not doing anything, which paralyzed my further. Eventually, it's too
late- the relationship has floundered in limbo for too long. Too many
tragic secnarios have been played in each head...

 If I were she, I'd send a picture of the two of us and say something cute
like "we make a much better couple when we're not fighting; call me." Or
something of that nature to break the ice. If he doesn't respond- then the
writing is on the wall, eh?

 The Doctah

    
    	Pride can permanently destroy a relationship.  Personally, a
    	relationship or a friendship is more important to me than my
    	pride, or lack thereof.
    
    	What has she got to lose by contacting him?  It sounds like
    	she has a lot more to gain.
    
    	Carla
    

    RE: The Doctah
    
         Boy does your first paragraph bring back hideous memories.  Too
    bad I didn't have the class required to do what is in your second
    paragraph.
    
                                      Greg

>         Boy does your first paragraph bring back hideous memories.  Too
>    bad I didn't have the class required to do what is in your second
>    paragraph.

 Now don't you feel like a jerk? I know I do, um, did. Still do in some ways.
Mistakes are only really bad if you fail to learn from them. I've learned.
I'm still learning. Now, could somebody please explain why learning these 
lessons is so painful?

 The Doctah

    The last time I had a major argument with someone I cared about, after
    taking silence for about a week, I went to CVS, and found a card that
    said:  (cover) "should we kiss and make-up"  (inside) "or just
    enjoy the silence a bit longer?"...  I didn't even sign the card (just
    put Just_me on it), put his name on the outside, and placed it in his 
    mailbox...  that night I got E-MAIL from him...

    I think too many people let pride stand in the way (I'm not going to
    make the first move!!), and let what can be a wonderful relationship go
    down the drain.  I got a card, because it was non threatening. It
    let him still decide what he wanted to do, and let him know how I felt.

    If after a cooling off period, you want to test the water so to speak,
    find a way to do it, so that neither one of you feel threatened. Timing
    is also critical.  If this is a first argument then its hard to judge,
    but if you know he needs X amount of time to simmer down, then by all
    means, give him that space to do just that.  Hearing from you before
    that is only going to make him more angry. With a first argument, its
    hard to judge that timing, so you may have to wing it.

    Gale

RE:<<< Note 883.7 by WAHOO::LEVESQUE "An inner voice had called me there..." >>>

> Now don't you feel like a jerk? 
    
      Yo.  Thanks a lot, Doc.
    
>Now, could somebody please explain why learning these lessons is so painful?

       If the lessons weren't painful, they wouldn't be so well remembered.
    
                                         Greg

    >Lisa can not help but think of him all day.........
    
    This is another problem entirely, it is not healthy to center your life
    around someone. She needs to refocus her energies toward her
    needs/wants.

    >Should she just wait a month or two before writing him.
    
    A month or two?! What will waiting accomplish? Life is much to short
    for these kinds of games. (see head game note). If she wants to talk to
    him pick up the phone and call, or send a letter and mail it, today.

    >She just got back a bunch of pictures of them two together and she 
    >would like to send him one.....but doesn't know if that is a good idea
    >now.

    Why wouldn't it be a good idea? The worst thing she'll learn is that
    the guy lost interest and did a crummy job leaving her.

    The "who should make the first move" issue is a foolish game. We think we
    have something to prove if we can resist telling the other person what
    we really feel. What a waste! She should tell him what is on her mind,
    ask what is on his and hope it is the same thing!

    Gail

    I agree with those who say she should make the first move.  Then
    if he doesn't respond, the hell with him!  But, she should give
    him one more chance before she says the hell with him.
    
    As Gale said, there are a lot of cute cards that deal with this
    problem.  One I saw recently had an old fashioned picture of a woman
    lying on a train track with a train bearing down on her.  Inside
    it said, "Just to let you know I'm doing fine without you."  (I
    mailed it to a friend who hadn't spoken to me in 12 weeks because
    of a fight, and as soon as he got it he called me up! :-)  )
    
   Lorna
    

	 I suppose I don't have any pride, eh?  I ALWAYS attempt to
	 mend arguments ASAP......what good is time going to do but
	 make each other worry and get more angry because the other
	 hasn't written/called?



	 k    

    
    re - Carla
    
    	>>> What has she got to lose by contacting him?  It sounds like
    	>>> she has a lot more to gain.
    
    Not necessarily.  What if she feels she wasn't at fault?  What if she 
    feels that the only reason she's calling to make amends is because she
    feels guilty or ashamed for something she *didn't* really do?  What if 
    the reason he stopped talking to her was because, for once, she had the
    guts to stand up for something she felt was right?
    
    I'm not getting the whole story from the basenote and replies, but it
    would seem to me that she *might* have a lot to lose - like whatever's
    left of her self-esteem.
    
    If this were me, I would make the first move if I felt clear that it
    was my fault.  And if it wasn't my fault, I would make the first move
    *only* if I *knew* it wouldn't damage my self-esteem.
    
    Carol
    
    
    

    Sometimes, two people break apart and perhaps they each sort of play a 
    game of "who'll be first."
    
    And when they "may" have gotten back together, eventually, ... in the
    meantime, someone else comes along and makes one of them forget the
    other.  Then it's indeed, too late.  So if it's important, don't wait
    around.
    
    Dwight

That's a good point Carol, but what do you do when it's not clear who is at
fault, or if both at fault?  What do you do when both are sitting there saying
that the other is at fault, and being momentarily blind to their own fault?

It's important to communicate afterwards to clarify:  

1) where you stand, how you feel, etc... 
   (if you miss them say so, but don't let them off the hook)
2) own up to mistakes you may have made, 
3) apoligize for any harsh words or actions,
4) let the other person know that you are open to resolving the situation
   (if you are)
5) set expectations for changes

None of this need be damaging to your self esteem.  In fact, I would imagine
handling the situation well, and resolving the problem in a positive manner
would be good for your self esteem.

Jim.

	 Fault....I don't like that word....

	 I tend to think that in every "fight" both sides are a little
	 at fault.  And even if your not, and you love the person, why
	 not try to mend it?  I don't see going back to someone to
	 discuss the issue as "crawling back", nor do I see the
	 problem of "loss of self esteem."

	 After all, it's not like you should just "forget" the fight,
	 but come back at a later time a discuss it!  Invalidating
	 someone's feeling, or your feelings by simply forgetting the
	 issue is only going to cause problems down the road.

	 If it's big enough to fight about and split over, it's big
	 enough to discuss.

	 kath

In yesterday's night episode of 'St. Elsewhere', the characters
played by Howie Mandel and Ed Begley, who are room mates, have a
bitter fight. Later, Mandel can't stand the bitterness. He turns to
Begley and profusely apologizes for everything he had said and
everything he had done. He promises to be perfect and offers his
hand. Begley eyes him coolly, ignores the hand and says: "We'll
see". 

That scene exemplifies why people don't 'talk first'. There is
always the chance the other person, from a power position thus newly
acquired, will reject the apologetic person. Such rejection can be
very hard to take. 

Most of us do not 'talk first', because we fear rejection. 

-- Ron 

>That scene exemplifies why people don't 'talk first'. There is
>always the chance the other person, from a power position thus newly
>acquired, will reject the apologetic person. Such rejection can be
>very hard to take. 

>Most of us do not 'talk first', because we fear rejection. 

 That's why it makes sense to approach the situation delicately. Make it clear
you are willing to begin the healing and forgiving process. Don't throw
yourself at his/her feet. The relationship needs a push to keep it going, not
impetus to make one partner feel "better" than another.

 The Grumpy Doctah

    >That scene exemplifies why people don't 'talk first'. There is
    >always the chance the other person, from a power position thus newly
    >acquired, will reject the apologetic person. Such rejection can be
    >very hard to take.


    	That's certainly a reason, but is it a good one?  In my mind, no.
    Because if that particular situation happened to *me*, it would
    actually make things much easier to take.  That is, if I had a fight
    with someone, I'd eventually (probably anyway) want to sit down and
    talk things out.  I simply *cannot* hold a grudge (I've tried  ;-) ). 
    If I never made that move to try and reason things out, I'd always be
    wondering about what I should have done.  That would be harder, in my
    mind, than to have made that move, tried to work it out, and then see
    that the other person is a total jerk and not worth my time.  Knowing
    that I was doing the right thing would make the rejection far less
    painful (after all, why should I care about rejection from a "JERK"?!).


    Brian

    
>>> but what do you do when it's not clear who is at fault, or if both at 
>>> fault?  What do you do when both are sitting there saying that the 
>>> other is at fault, and being momentarily blind to their own fault?

Jim, *I* would see a counsellor.  I would secure an objective third party 
to mediate and moderate the attempt to patch things up.

Making the first move under any circumstances doesn't do me any good
if I can't hold my own after that.  

>>>	 I tend to think that in every "fight" both sides are a little
>>>	 at fault.  

But, Kathy, what if one of them is asking for something totally unreasonable,
and leaves because he/she didn't get the desired response, leaving no room 
for compromise?  How is the other at fault?

>>>	 I don't see going back to someone to
>>>	 discuss the issue as "crawling back", nor do I see the
>>>	 problem of "loss of self esteem."

Kath, I guess it depends on the people and the situation.  Going back to 
someone who is manipulative and hurtful to discuss the issue (why we argued - 
again; why we split up - again; where this relationship is going - again), 
especially if that other person "started" it, could be considered "crawling 
back" - by me, anyway.

And if this *were* me, crawling back (again) to a toxic situation, well, I
probably didn't have a lot of self-esteem to being with, but what I had left
would be diminished that much more.

Just a possibility.
    
    Carol

 Carol, I think that most of these responses are describing the general case,
ie, where both parties see themselves as relative equals in the relationship.
I think you are basing your devil's advocate position on your personal
experiences which include co-dependency, if I'm not mistaken. I suspect that
in your case, it may have indeed made more sense to have a counselor or other
mediator because of the self-esteem problem. So, in effect, it sounds like
you're both right, given the particular circumstances surrounding individual 
cases.

 The Doctah

    Thanks, Doctah, for considering my point.  I just wanted to bring
    attention to the possibility that being the one to make the first move
    isn't always right.  As I was telling Kathy in a private mail message,
    I have always been taught that it's "commendable" to make the first 
    move.  It's "right", it's "big of me".
    
    No one ever warned me that it could also be downright degrading.
    
    Apologies for beating a dead donut,
    
    Carol
    
    :-)
    

 There's definitely a difference between being the first one to seek peace
after a fight occasionally and always having to be the one to try to make
up. I used to always want to be the one to make up, because I get very
upset inside when things aren't alright. Then I decided, If she can't make the 
effort to be the first one once in a while, she isn't worth the trouble. (After
all, it's usually her fault anyway :-)*10.

 The Doctah

     I have to agree with the sentiment of not minding making the first  
move, but getting irritated if it happens all the time.  

     Close relationships are too valuable to risk by staying silent just
because it was not my fault or I was right.  In fact, the last time this
happened, after I called to talk, the 'other' admitted that I was right but 
said she didn't like the smug way I had put my argument.  These things are 
not always what they appear to be.  Anyway, my action helped build a 
tradition of fair-play during problem times that helped a lot later on.
Thereafter, it almost seemed as if we raced each other to start to make-up.
I think that actually may have prevented some problems from ever starting.

     I will admit that I have avoided moving first after clashes in certain
    non-close relationships.  However, I usually considered these clashes to 
    be character-defining actions, and saw nothing to be recovered by my 
    initiating contact.  I may have been wrong.

                                      Greg

One way I found to start talking again was to say, "I apologize for
    my half of the argument..."  This usually led to a reluctant grin
    on my husband's part, and he could then apologize for his "half"
    without losing face.  She may want to try something similar.
    
    Good luck!
    Barb

    (maybe this has been said already)
    
    ... but how about whoever wants to end the fight?
    

    Re:26
    
    BTW: Who's fight ?
    

    Disagreements are tough on relationships but sometimes it's a sign
    that two people are at least communicating...consider where one
    person is quite introverted, hardly responds to anything...a
    disagreement would almost be a reason to celebrate breaking through
    
    If those so-called "fights" are over "petty" issues than one has
    to question the tolerance level of the other...I would be willing
    to "break the ice", but I would make it clear that arguing over
    trivial issues could put an end to the relationship, try to get
    a commitment to resolving peacefully these petty issues and then
    go from there.
    
    Of course, if that person is already selfish and insecure I'd
    not make any further efforts but to move on
    
    Christopher