Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    The sanctity of life.
    The transcendence of love.
    The indiscriminateness of pain.
    The inevitability of death.

    I like your attitude.  I'm told fear of death is the most important
    fear to overcome because, left unchecked, it prevents us from fully
    experiencing life (we live out of fear, not affirmation of life.)
    
    What do you think?
    
    MM

    I like truth and justice. 
    
    I find what is true is intrinsically
    beautiful (at least what appears to me as true.)  Which leads me
    to this question:  what is truth?
    
    I'm big on justice because then nobody gets exploited.
    
    MM 

Life?  Well, if you were not alive, you would not be reading this note, and you
would not care.  Liberty?  Well, if you were not free to read or write this,
then there much use in this.  Pursuit of Happiness/fribees?  I think everyone is
in pursuit of Happiness by different means.  Truth?  Beauty? I don't think they
are self evident at all; certainly beauty lies in the eye of the beholder.

RE: .2

That is very nice...  Is it part of a larger work?

RE: .4

Justice certainly is not self evident either; otherwise, why would we need
judges and lawyers?

Jim. 

To me, truth has a life of it's own.  It cannot be changed nor altered by 
our personal perceptions, our life experiences, our pain, our anger, our 
hatred, our love, our wishes, nor our despair.  Justice is the process of 
balance and equity, the vehicle of truth.  If anything justifies the 
continued existence of mankind, it is his reverence for truth, and his 
expectations of justice.

I don't think its death that people fear really,....I think we fear
"the unknown".  Fear of The Unknown is reflected negatively in 
many ways in our lives.  It forms the basis of discrimination.  Its why
we construct rigid control (social, political, religious) systems.  Its
    why we resist change.  The ultimate "unknown" is death.  
    Or maybe its a matter of coming to grips with our own mortality, 
    something that defeats our most noble sense of purpose.

Jim, 
 there is a very great difference between "Laws" and "Justice". Judges
and Lawyers administer LAW for the most part, although occasionally 
Justice will triumph.

			Nigel

    Re .7:  hear hear.
    
    MM

    re .7 
    sad but true

    the use of the term "law" is marketing hype.  it implies some 
    threat of bad things happening to you if you "break" it.  i believe
    that the association of this term with any other concept devalues
    that concept.  if that concept has substance, then no one needs to
    be told it is a law.  if that concept lacks substance, maybe a few
    folks can be fooled for a short while by calling the concept a law.
    Maybe those folks deserved to be fooled.

I believe that the most important truth is that most truths are 
dynamic, they are held by "man" and therefore can change.

If I can state this another way, we should never assume that 
anything is a hard fact, mankind has spent centuries going down the 
wrong path because of such assumptions.  And, of course, the new 
right path could be wrong.

If it is ever repeated, suggest the series "The Day the Universe
Changed"  by James Burke.  It was on PBS and was one of the best 
eye openers I've ever seen.

	~Mike	

Yes, I fully agree that fear of death is a biggy.  It plagues me
every day.

If anyone has found a way to overcome it, please speak up !

I think it's the thought of not knowing I'm dead, and the thought
of how much time will pass after I'm gone, that scares me the most.

It's funny, though, the things that calm me.

Watching Start Trek used to be wonderful.  I used to think things like
"If Star Trek is what's in the future, why worry about death?".

Sometimes I envy people that truly believe in heaven.  They're in heaven!
I mean, if this wonderful place is ahead, why worry about death ?
Although I suppose many of them worry about not making it to heaven,
so perhaps they're as scared as me after all!

Personally, I don't believe in heaven though.  I think after we die,
we're just dead.  Disintegration, kapput, finis.  Kind of grim.

The only partial consolation I've ever had to the fear of infinity,
is the fact that although infinity SEEMS like too long to have to wait,
somehow I did it already, on my way here !

/Eric

    ..That everyone and anyone is motivated only by sex and/or money, varying
    only in degree and even money is somewhat motivated by sex.
    
    Male animals do not fight for "territory" unless the females are in heat.
    "Territory" then must be meaningless otherwise.  I believe humans intel- 
    lectualize this basic behavior, but exhibit it nonetheless.
           
    ...That we all consider life to be a movie in which we are the main
    star, seeing everything in terms of ourselves and tending to forget
    that everyone else is also watching their own private movie in which
    we are playing mostly a bit part.
    
    ...That life is episodic and doesn't consist merely of parts to a
    privately created 'great plan'.  That we are only what we are at the 
    time our behavior is exhibited and nothing is excused or assumed by 
    those observing it except by the people who love us.
    
    ...And to quote L. Frank Baumm in the character of the Wizard of
    Oz, "It's not how much you love but how much you are loved by others"
    
    ...That we are born alone and we will die alone, and if we are lucky
    enough to have found someone to travel the road with us for however
    long they are willing, we should be grateful and let them know it
    because they will die alone too.
    

    "...You're never gonna do it without the Fez on!"
    
             
                                           Becker & Fagan

        I heartily disagree that everyone is motivated by sex and money,
        and that everyone is self centered. I disagree for two reasons.
        First of all, it is a great over-generalization to say that
        everyone is motivated by anything. One of the most obvious
        truthes to me is that we are each motivated by our own motives
        which may be very different from each other.
        
        Secondly, while I will admit to being a moderately sexual person
        as people go, I know where my motivations are and I deny that
        sex is anywhere near as important to me as love, beauty, the joy
        of living, the joy of solving problems, comraderie, ethics, God,
        or any number of other things. Money also motivates me very
        poorly, although I'm lazy enough that a shortage of it and the
        prospect of the discipline of budgeting will motivate me to a
        degree.
        
        When we look inside ourselves and find what motivates us, what
        makes us tick, what we value most dear, it is tempting to say
        that all men must be so motivated and have such values. It is
        natural to think that everyone else is like us, but it is wrong.
        If money and sex are important to you and major drives, then
        fine, but please remember that it is you that you are describing
        and not all of mankind.
        
        JimB.

        I have evry little fear of death, and my lack of fear comes not
        from a belief that there is more beyond, but just from a
        contentment with this life and from the beautiful examples that
        I have seen in my life.
        
        There is no rational reason to expect that there is life beyond
        death, but on the whole I rather expect there is. Why, I can not
        say for sure. God has told me that He is there and that He
        cares. Men and religion have told me that He promises life ever
        lasting to those who follow and believe in Him. They may be
        right. What they say does not conflict with what He has said,
        and in fact seems to fit fairly well together.
        
        On the other hand, although I rather expect that there is
        something beyond death, I do not count on it. I do not postpone
        anything beyond death. I do not do what I do for fear of death
        or of eternal punishment beyond death or eternal reward after
        death. I treat death as an end to life as we know it. I treat
        life as a great gift that we have in a certain measure and which
        we should use fully and wisely. This is not to say that I am
        always wise with how I use it. 
        
        Why fear death? It happens. Like all good things, life will
        eventually come to an end. This does not devalue it. It may, in
        fact, be the source of value. Think of a vacation. Does the fact
        that it ends make it senseless, worthless or unenjoyable? No.
        You enjoy it while it is there, and then it ends. You go on to
        what ever it is that happens next. And if you worry about all
        the stuff that comes after it you waste the vacation.
        
        I do not wish to die prematurely, but no more do I really desire
        to live forever. What use, in and of itself, is eternal life?
        Life is for living. Time is for accomplishing, for enjoying.
        There are many things that I enjoy, many things that I long to
        accomplish. Many of them are accomplished in a few hours, days
        or years. 
        
        The thing I most want to accomplish that takes the longest time
        is to bring up my family. I want to raise my boys well and help
        them to know and to enjoy the wonders of life. I want to see
        them grow up and have families of their own. I want to know that
        they have succeeded in turn in raising their families well. If I
        can live to see the marriage of my grandchildren and the birth
        of the generation of their children, then I will feel I have
        done well and done what I can in raising my family.
        
        I have been lucky in that I have been blessed to know a number
        of people who have lived and died well. Perhaps the best example
        amongst all of these was my great aunt. She was the woman who my
        mother most often turned to for help in raising us, the lady who
        baby-sat and taught me. She was not as important to me as my own
        grandmother--her sister, but very dear to my heart.
        
        She lived a long and fruitful life, and died--I feel--at a time
        of her own choosing. She passed away less than a year after my
        great uncle, a week after first seeing my first-born and on her
        50th wedding anniversary. At her funeral the priest, who had
        known her for only a couple of years, said that he learned more
        about what it meant to be a good Christian and a good person
        from her example as she cared for her ailing husband and as she
        just lived her life than he had from any other person.
        
        My Auntie wasn't a saint. She was just a person with love in her
        heart, a person of strength and of courage. When she died she
        was on good terms with God, the world, her family and life. When
        she left us it was because she was finished. She had by then
        accomplished what she set out to do. She had done her best and
        she had made the world a noticably better place. If I can
        approach her example, I too will die at ease. 
        
        How do we escape the fear of death? merely by this, by living.
        If we can treat life as the wonderful gift it is, appreciate it
        for what it is, we can realize that we can be satisfied with a
        finite amount of it just as we only need a finite amount of
        anything. 
        
        JimB.

    
    
    Whatever *you* believe is true, is true, for you.
    
                                             -sunny-

	Self evident truths: 

        That people are born and die. 
        
        All else is uncertain.
        
        Between the two they lead a life that is governed by an ever varying 
        motivation. Life may be met with success or failure, or a mixture of 
        both. An apparent success may later be seen to be a failure, and an 
        apparent failure may later be seen to be a success.
        
        If we leave this life having improved the net happiness of the human
        race, then our life may be deemed a success. If we reduce the net
        happiness of the race then we have failed. If we have no net effect
        then the ledgers are in balance.
        
        /. Ian .\